Looks done:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2025/06/06/federal-judge-approves-2-8b-settlement-meaning-us-colleges-will-pay-athletes-millions/

The hangup was roster size, the solution was current walk-ons could continue without counting against new roster limits.

stu said:

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Looks done:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2025/06/06/federal-judge-approves-2-8b-settlement-meaning-us-colleges-will-pay-athletes-millions/

The hangup was roster size, the solution was current walk-ons could continue without counting against new roster limits.

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The exemption for current walk-ons might be why Madsen added so many to the roster last year.

Dumb question - why was this something (roster caps) that the university wanted?

socaltownie said:

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Dumb question - why was this something (roster caps) that the university wanted?

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I think the schools wanted some kind of cap on spending and revenue sharing in terms of parity? People didn't like that in the current system some schools would circumvent the scholarship limits and hoard talent by using NIL to equal scholarship value. So given that reality the more effective way to limit team sizes would be a hard roster cap instead of the scholarship mechanism.

There will still potentially be inequality when it comes to schools who can offer more NIL, if vetted properly, because I can imagine that the majority of schools (and maybe even the big players) don't mind a certain degree of cost-limiting that will take place with roster caps in an attempt to slow the spending arms race (especially now that sports revenue will need to be shared which means schools won't keep as much money to operate either).

Congress may be on it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2025/06/09/ncaa-antitrust-protection/

calumnus said:

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stu said:

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Looks done:
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2025/06/06/federal-judge-approves-2-8b-settlement-meaning-us-colleges-will-pay-athletes-millions/

The hangup was roster size, the solution was current walk-ons could continue without counting against new roster limits.

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The exemption for current walk-ons might be why Madsen added so many to the roster last year.

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Exactly and look for the staff to now pursue adding a very good walk on. Since those prior one's kept, do not count against the roster limits.

On that note, does anyone know why all of last year's walkons except BJ Fisher disappeared from the roster? With the House settlement rule and Madsen's last-year preference for fielding a bunch of guys in sweats and no uniforms every game, I would have thought they keep those guys.

barsad said:

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On that note, does anyone know why all of last year's walkons except BJ Fisher disappeared from the roster? With the House settlement rule and Madsen's last-year preference for fielding a bunch of guys in sweats and no uniforms every game, I would have thought they keep those guys.

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I think it is because they entered the Portal, so they are technically still recruitable athletes. Madsen will welcome them back, but Cal cannot list them until they are enrolled in Summer or Fall classes.

All the walkons entered the Portal (cue up that Star Trek portal graphic)?
If that's the case then I really don't get how Portal recruiting works. A walkon at Cal who may have zero real minutes on a college floor thinks another school will make a scholarship offer with only high school stats to work with?
I personally don't think a 15-scholarship roster needs a practice squad of walkons, let them compete hard against each other.

calumnus said:

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barsad said:

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All the walkons entered the Portal (cue up that Star Trek portal graphic)?
If that's the case then I really don't get how Portal recruiting works. A walkon at Cal who may have zero real minutes on a college floor thinks another school will make a scholarship offer with only high school stats to work with?
I personally don't think a 15-scholarship roster needs a practice squad of walkons, let them compete hard against each other.

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Just speculating;
1. There is no cost to enter the Portal. A walk-on has no scholarship to lose.
2. The Portal does not indicate whether you had a scholarship. Coming from a P4 school, even with no PT, looks good on the resume.
3. The player may have grown or added strength since high school, making them more attractive to prospective schools.
4. The player may have chosen to walk-on at Cal vs a scholarship at D2 thinking they could earn PT, a scholarship and compete in the ACC, but now realize that is not going to happen.
5. The player may be looking for another situation where top academics and basketball are easier to balance.

The key is #1

As for the value of walk-ons for practice: 5 walk-ons lets you practice 2 games of 5 on 5 without anyone spending practice just watching from the sideline. It is better for conditioning, developing your 11-15 players (the guys who need the most game experience). They do not cost the program a scholarship, travel, or any other appreciable cost.

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I respectfully disagree with your #1.

With all the injuries to players in the modern game, teams rarely have a chance to get all their players healthy enough for coaches to dream of holding two full 5 on 5 scrimmages at the same time (if that is what you meant.) When has any recent Cal team not had one or more injured players riding the pine, or not suiting up at all, due to that injury? With a 20 man team, the odds are very high that you will have at least one player injured every scheduled practice day (or game day). And if just one player is injured, you will only be able to hold one 5 on 5 scrimmage that day, not two at the same time.

I am still a believer in the two-man play as being the foundation of basketball, and fewer players today understand that. It is less utilized today, so I'd rather see them work on perfecting that in drills and scrimmages, than scrimmaging 5 on 5. If they had better 2 on 2 skills, their whole offense would benefit.

I also disagree with your implication that players can't learn anything except by playing in games and scrimmaging. There is so much to learn by watching scrimmages or games, being taught what to be looking for by their coaches. You can learn from the action by watching film or video, playing that over and over, and dissecting the minute details. Watching a scrimmage from the bench, can give the player a feel for the speed of the game and the moves different players make, and selecting the moves and skills their teammates they need to work on to improve as a team. For example, if you have teammate observe that you have a teammate who does not drive so well from the left side, then you need to make a note not to pass the ball to that teammate, if the teammates is defended so that he won't be able to drive to the basket from that side. Pass to a teammate's strength, and don't pass to him when he is not likely to be successful from that left side.

Well said, SFCityBear, scrimmaging is overrated, and if you're going to have one, Madsen should be watching and observing directly.
Many more touches in drills and two-man than a 5-on-5. Forget the walkon squad… if you're going to have one or two, let them be good enough to get some time on the floor in an injury pinch or some other special circumstance (not just garbage time). I like the old tradition of giving a walkon a chance to show he's better than the 13-15 scholarship players, earning a spot the following year.

SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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barsad said:

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All the walkons entered the Portal (cue up that Star Trek portal graphic)?
If that's the case then I really don't get how Portal recruiting works. A walkon at Cal who may have zero real minutes on a college floor thinks another school will make a scholarship offer with only high school stats to work with?
I personally don't think a 15-scholarship roster needs a practice squad of walkons, let them compete hard against each other.

---

Just speculating;
1. There is no cost to enter the Portal. A walk-on has no scholarship to lose.
2. The Portal does not indicate whether you had a scholarship. Coming from a P4 school, even with no PT, looks good on the resume.
3. The player may have grown or added strength since high school, making them more attractive to prospective schools.
4. The player may have chosen to walk-on at Cal vs a scholarship at D2 thinking they could earn PT, a scholarship and compete in the ACC, but now realize that is not going to happen.
5. The player may be looking for another situation where top academics and basketball are easier to balance.

The key is #1

As for the value of walk-ons for practice: 5 walk-ons lets you practice 2 games of 5 on 5 without anyone spending practice just watching from the sideline. It is better for conditioning, developing your 11-15 players (the guys who need the most game experience). They do not cost the program a scholarship, travel, or any other appreciable cost.

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I respectfully disagree with your #1.

With all the injuries to players in the modern game, teams rarely have a chance to get all their players healthy enough for coaches to dream of holding two full 5 on 5 scrimmages at the same time (if that is what you meant.) When has any recent Cal team not had one or more injured players riding the pine, or not suiting up at all, due to that injury? With a 20 man team, the odds are very high that you will have at least one player injured every scheduled practice day (or game day). And if just one player is injured, you will only be able to hold one 5 on 5 scrimmage that day, not two at the same time.

I am still a believer in the two-man play as being the foundation of basketball, and fewer players today understand that. It is less utilized today, so I'd rather see them work on perfecting that in drills and scrimmages, than scrimmaging 5 on 5. If they had better 2 on 2 skills, their whole offense would benefit.

I also disagree with your implication that players can't learn anything except by playing in games and scrimmaging. There is so much to learn by watching scrimmages or games, being taught what to be looking for by their coaches. You can learn from the action by watching film or video, playing that over and over, and dissecting the minute details. Watching a scrimmage from the bench, can give the player a feel for the speed of the game and the moves different players make, and selecting the moves and skills their teammates they need to work on to improve as a team. For example, if you have teammate observe that you have a teammate who does not drive so well from the left side, then you need to make a note not to pass the ball to that teammate, if the teammates is defended so that he won't be able to drive to the basket from that side. Pass to a teammate's strength, and don't pass to him when he is not likely to be successful from that left side.

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Talk about a paper tiger argument. I never "implied that players can't learn anything except in games and scrimmaging" and that 2 player drills are "not important." That is just silly. With 5 walk-ons you can still do all the 2 man drills you can do without 5 walk-ons.

What you cannot do without 5 walkons is have ALL your players EVER scrimmaging or doing 5 on 5 drills at the same time, which is critical given that practice time is limited by the NCAA. I never said to "only" have 5 on 5 drills and scrimmages, that is absurd, just that if you EVER want to have all your players doing 5 on 5 drills or scrimmaging you need 5 walkons.

And what's more, you seem to think I am advocating for a particular practice style that you are arguing against. I'm just explaining why Madsen might want 5 walk-ons. Maybe if you and Barsad are coach you don't have walk-ons, but Madsen is the coach and he chose to have walk-ons. And what having 20 players allows for is 2 separate groups of 5 on 5. Nothing more, nothing less. If you think having walk-one is a mistake, your argument is with Madsen, not with me.

I disagree players can't learn anything in scrimmages

this is when players get game type reps, adjust to speed of game, try out new things, etc, etc, etc.

HoopDreams said:

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I disagree players can't learn anything in scrimmages

this is when players get game type reps, adjust to speed of game, try out new things, etc, etc, etc.

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You can run plays, practice help defense or zones…

So you would just run drills and then throw the players into a real game never having actually played together?

calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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I disagree players can't learn anything in scrimmages

this is when players get game type reps, adjust to speed of game, try out new things, etc, etc, etc.

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You can run plays, practice help defense or zones…

So you would just run drills and then throw the players into a real game never having actually played together?

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I got into this thread late and didn't follow the whole discussion so I probably mis-understood the points being made

Just saw "players can't learn anything in scrimmages"

I suggest ignoring my comment

You didn't miss much, a discussion of how many walk-ons we should have this year devolved into another opinion-fest on how to use them in practice. All I know is there were a lot more than 5 walk-ons last year, the 2nd row bench was full of what looked like another team in practice sweats. If it were really 5 or less that would be fine.

HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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I disagree players can't learn anything in scrimmages

this is when players get game type reps, adjust to speed of game, try out new things, etc, etc, etc.

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You can run plays, practice help defense or zones…

So you would just run drills and then throw the players into a real game never having actually played together?

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I got into this thread late and didn't follow the whole discussion so I probably mis-understood the points being made

Just saw "players can't learn anything in scrimmages"

I suggest ignoring my comment

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I think I misread your response to me. The punctuation was a little ambiguous. So you agree that scrimmages can be useful? Most coaches do too. It allows players to implement the coaching, techniques and strategies they have drilled at game speed and in the context of team play.

Women's teams often recruit men on campus to scrimmage against.

Men's teams rely on walk-ons for scrimmages.

It is really up to the coach. Madsen clearly likes having walkons.

barsad said:

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You didn't miss much, a discussion of how many walk-ons we should have this year devolved into another opinion-fest on how to use them in practice. All I know is there were a lot more than 5 walk-ons last year, the 2nd row bench was full of what looked like another team in practice sweats. If it were really 5 or less that would be fine.

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There were 7 walk-ons last year. https://calbears.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/2024-25

As explained at the beginning of the thread, this year there is a new roster limit of 15, the same as the scholarship limit (the idea is to prevent Kentucky from loading up on talent paying walk-ons with NIL). This will eventually effectively eliminate walk-ons (if the rule holds, which I doubt).

However, anyone who is already on the team as a walk-on can remain as a walk-on. I think (and it has been confirmed) that Madsen loaded up on walk-ons last year in anticipation of this new rule. There will be fewer walk-ons this year and each subsequent year as players graduate, leave via the portal or just quit to focus on academics as long as the rule is in place. Within 5 years there will be zero walk-ons and coaches that still want to have full scrimmages will have to recruit "practice players" probably from the general student population, who will likely not be as skilled as our current recruited walk-ons.

So yes, 7 was a lot last year, but it was with the idea of getting in extra under the wire before the rule change. There will be fewer from now on.

My internet grammar is worse than my RT grammar and I see I had a double-negative in my original reply

Yes players ABSOLUTELY learn how to play better in scrimmages for multiple reasons

calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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I disagree players can't learn anything in scrimmages

this is when players get game type reps, adjust to speed of game, try out new things, etc, etc, etc.

---

You can run plays, practice help defense or zones…

So you would just run drills and then throw the players into a real game never having actually played together?

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I got into this thread late and didn't follow the whole discussion so I probably mis-understood the points being made

Just saw "players can't learn anything in scrimmages"

I suggest ignoring my comment

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I think I misread your response to me. The punctuation was a little ambiguous. So you agree that scrimmages can be useful? Most coaches do too. It allows players to implement the coaching, techniques and strategies they have drilled at game speed and in the context of team play.

Women's teams often recruit men on campus to scrimmage against.

Men's teams rely on walk-ons for scrimmages.

It is really up to the coach. Madsen clearly likes having walkons.

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barsad said:

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Well said, SFCityBear, scrimmaging is overrated, and if you're going to have one, Madsen should be watching and observing directly.
Many more touches in drills and two-man than a 5-on-5. Forget the walkon squad… if you're going to have one or two, let them be good enough to get some time on the floor in an injury pinch or some other special circumstance (not just garbage time). I like the old tradition of giving a walkon a chance to show he's better than the 13-15 scholarship players, earning a spot the following year.

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So true, and even if Coach Madsen is the greatest coach on the planet, it will be physically impossible for him to watch Calumnus' "two full 5 x 5 scrimmages going on at the same time". He can watch one, or the other, or jump back and forth, and of course his assistant coaches can help observing, but he sure can't do the job of watching two games simultaneously by himself.

My apology in advance for telling a personal story. I remember as a soph in high school, I was on the 3rd string, and I sat at the far end of the bench. In one game, our starting five was told to run a set play. They tried several times, and the play failed each time. Coach looked down the bench and yelled, "SFCity, get over here." I jumped up, and ran to the coach's side.

"Do you know how to run the Wheel?"

"Yes, Coach, I can run the Wheel," I replied.

"Well, go in for Smith, and show these idiots how we run it."

"Yes, sir."

I checked in for Smith at guard, ran the Wheel successfully for 3 straight possessions, which gave us 3 buckets, and the lead in the game. Coach took me out, and we went on to win the game rather easily.

I did not get to play in any more games that season.

The following year, the coach immediately named me as a starter, where I stayed for the entire season.

SFCityBear said:

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barsad said:

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Well said, SFCityBear, scrimmaging is overrated, and if you're going to have one, Madsen should be watching and observing directly.
Many more touches in drills and two-man than a 5-on-5. Forget the walkon squad… if you're going to have one or two, let them be good enough to get some time on the floor in an injury pinch or some other special circumstance (not just garbage time). I like the old tradition of giving a walkon a chance to show he's better than the 13-15 scholarship players, earning a spot the following year.

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So true, and even if Coach Madsen is the greatest coach on the planet, it will be physically impossible for him to watch Calumnus' "two full 5 x 5 scrimmages going on at the same time". He can watch one, or the other, or jump back and forth, and of course his assistant coaches can help observing, but he sure can't do the job of watching two games simultaneously by himself.

My apology in advance for telling a personal story. I remember as a soph in high school, I was on the 3rd string, and I sat at the far end of the bench. In one game, our starting five was told to run a set play. They tried several times, and the play failed each time. Coach looked down the bench and yelled, "SFCity, get over here." I jumped up, and ran to the coach's side.

"Do you know how to run the Wheel?"

"Yes, Coach, I can run the Wheel," I replied.

"Well, go in for Smith, and show these idiots how we run it."

"Yes, sir."

I checked in for Smith at guard, ran the Wheel successfully for 3 straight possessions, which gave us 3 buckets, and the lead in the game. Coach took me out, and we went on to win the game rather easily.

I did not get to play in any more games that season.

The following year, the coach immediately named me as a starter, where I stayed for the entire season.

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Again, with the paper tiger arguments. No one said Madsen had to watch both scrimmages or two separate s 5x5 drills simultaneously. As you point out, he has assistant coaches who can watch the third team drill against the wall-ons while he focuses on the 1st and 2nd teams. The key is making the most of limited practice time and developing the young players.

As you know, back in the day most schools had JV teams. Apparently North Carolina still does:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/15/sports/ncaabasketball/north-carolina-junior-varsity.html

Again, I am really not advocating for or against having walk-ons, I am just giving a reason most coaches like to have walk-ons and as a result most have walk-ons on their teams. Madsen even took proactive steps to make sure he had walkons this year.

I am surprised you are against having walk-ons, but you and Barsad will get your wish soon enough as the new rules will eliminate them soon enough. And yes, when they do the coaches will adapt and run practices in the way they think best to develop the players and win games.