Lamond Murray

ncbears said:

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I think Murray had the sweetest shot in my Cal viewing days which goes back to Gene Ransom.
Honorable mention: Ed Gray's aborted senior year.

Randle's career stats are crazy: 45.4% overall, 50.9% on 2 pointers, 40.5% on 3 pointers, 88.1% from the line (93.3 as a senior); 18.4 points per game

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Particularly crazy in that many of his shots were under duress and/or from Curry-land.

By contrast, Shantay Leggans may have been the most automatic to hit a three when wide open, but his lack of height and quickness made him often have to shoot from further out, which was not his strength.

Agree and Randle was able to get to the rack with his handle and quickness,and finish…plus he perfected the tear drop

A scoring machine

Civil Bear said:

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ncbears said:

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I think Murray had the sweetest shot in my Cal viewing days which goes back to Gene Ransom.
Honorable mention: Ed Gray's aborted senior year.

Randle's career stats are crazy: 45.4% overall, 50.9% on 2 pointers, 40.5% on 3 pointers, 88.1% from the line (93.3 as a senior); 18.4 points per game

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Particularly crazy in that many of his shots were under duress and/or from Curry-land.

By contrast, Shantay Leggans may have been the most automatic to hit a three when wide open, but his lack of height and quickness made him often have to shoot from further out, which was not his strength.

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Yes, three 5'9" guards who could shoot the lights out for the Bears, if given the opportunity...

Michael Chavez ('80s): Didn't have the athleticism to create his own shot, but don't leave him alone!
Shantay Legans: Somewhat more athletic, but still so short that it was hard for him to shake free.
Jerome Randle: The complete package, offensively, reflecting his Pac 10 Player of the Year award.

calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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Who's the best pure outside shooter we've ever had? I should probably put one out there for you to top, but I'm sort of drawing a blank. Well, names are starting to come to me, but no one is standing out as number one, so some of you can name some names...

I take that back, here's a First Team (but I bet it could be enhanced... well maybe not the two bigs):

Ryan Anderson
Amit Tamir
Jordan Mathews
Ryan Drew
Theo Robertson

What say ye?

EDIT: Oh crap, I left off somebody pretty obvious. Had I only thought this through...

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Cal All-Time Leaders in 3pt%
1. Jordan Mathews .416
2. Jerome Randle .404

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This list is incomplete. A more complete list is from the all-time Cal player statistics on Sports-Reference.com. Their list (3pt shooting 40% and above):

Cal All Time Career Leaders in 3pt%:

1. Theo Robertson .440
2. Billy Dreher .431
3. Grant Mullins .430
4. Jordan Mathews .417
5. Keith Smith .413
6. Bill Elleby .410
7. Ryan Forehan-Kelly .407
8. Jerome Randle .405
9. Omar Wilkes .404
10. Matt Bradley .402

Players do not often arrive in college ready to compete at their highest level. The first couple of years are often years of adjustment to the college game and improving their shots. It may be more meaningful to look at a player's best season. Again, from Sports-Reference, the all-time best seasons for some Cal players shooting the 3pt shot, percentage followed by year and attempts per game (A):

1. K J Roberts .591 (1994) 3.7A
2. Billy Dreher .500 (1991) 2.4A
3. Theo Robertson .487 (2009) 3.5A
4. Matt Bradley .472 (2019) 3.4A
5. Bill Elleby .464 (1992) 4.9A
6. Jerome Randle .463 (2009) 6.2A
7. Keith Smith .462 (1990) 2.8A
7. Jeff Powers .462 (2014) 1.8A
8. Ryan Forehan-Kelly .453 (2000) 1.8A
9. Omar Wilkes .453 (2006) 1.8A
10. Jordan Mathews ,443 (2015) 4.8A
11. Jalen Celestine .440 (2024) 2.4A
12. Grant Mullins .430 (2017) 5.2A
13. Shantay Legans .427 (2000) 3.3A
14. Ryan Drew .420 (1990) 5.1A
15. Justin Cobbs .413 (2012) 1.9A
16. Ryan Anderson .410 (2008) 4.7A
16. Jorge Gutierrez .410 (2010) 1.3A
17. Jabari Bird .409 (2016) 4.5A
18. Allen Crabbe .400 (2011) 5.0A

Some others mentioned in this thread:
Ryan Anderson .396 career, best season .410 (2008) 4.7A
Amit Tamir .365 career, best season 394 (2003) 5.0A
Kevin Johnson .387 career and best season (1987) 3.6A
Randy Duck .362 career, best season .386 (1996) 4.1A
Ayinde Ubaka .338 career, best season .372 (2006) 5.3A
Lamond Murray .337 career, best season .364 (1993) 3.3A
Joe Shipp .338 career, best season .354 (2003) 3.6A

calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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Who's the best pure outside shooter we've ever had? I should probably put one out there for you to top, but I'm sort of drawing a blank. Well, names are starting to come to me, but no one is standing out as number one, so some of you can name some names...

I take that back, here's a First Team (but I bet it could be enhanced... well maybe not the two bigs):

Ryan Anderson
Amit Tamir
Jordan Mathews
Ryan Drew
Theo Robertson

What say ye?

EDIT: Oh crap, I left off somebody pretty obvious. Had I only thought this through...

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Cal All-Time Leaders in 3pt%
1. Jordan Mathews .416
2. Jerome Randle .404

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Theo Robertson shot 44%. His shot also looked the nicest. The argument is against is that he was low usage.

I think he could have been a 3 and D guy in the NBA if he stayed healthy. Too bad.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/theo-robertson-1.html

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Agreed, the only issue with Theo as a "pure shooter" is he was purely catch and shoot and took almost all of his shots when wide open from the same spot on the baseline. If a defender ran at him he would drive past them instead only dribbling with his right hand. It was a smart, effective, but two/dimensional strategy (I used do the same thing in pick up games, minus his ability to dunk).

He only averaged 1.2 Threes per game on his career but shot them at .440, again basically taking his favorite shot from the corner only when squared up and wide open. He did not make the list of all-time 3 pt % leaders because he did not have enough attempts.

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Theo was a player who was somewhat physically limited, with foot injuries in his first two seasons in his Cal career. Then in 2008, he had two hip operations and had to miss the whole season with a medical redshirt. He played his first 2 years under coach Ben Braun, and then the next two years he played for Mike Montgomery, which were more productive years, both for Theo and for the Cal team.

I don't disagree that Theo was a two dimensional player on offense, but otherwise, my memory of Theo is different. My memory is that he owned the baseline. He could knock down the three from both corners, which set up his drives to the basket, and vice versa. If you look at his years under Montgomery vs his years under Braun, you will see that his 3 point shot attempts doubled under Montgomery and his 2 point shot attempts also doubled from his days under Ben Braun. As he made more drives to the basket, he drew more fouls and his free throw production went up. The more threes he made, the more he was able to shake loose and drive to the rim. And vice versa. He was just getting better coaching. I also have a distinct memory of him occasionally making a three from beyond the top of the key, which surprised me at the time. He is another reason I think we get a better picture when we look at a player's best year, because his less productive years could have been affected by injury, and a better year influenced by a coaching change.

Thanks. Any player shooting 40%+ with a significant number of shots are great shooters

But there is a big difference between a catch and shoot player like Theo and Celestine compared to players who were heavily defended and had to create or shoot on the move like Randle

For example I wonder what Jalen Cones' catch and shoot percentage vs his shots off the jump (we ran a ton of actions to get him open… sometimes to team's benefit, sometimes not)

SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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Who's the best pure outside shooter we've ever had? I should probably put one out there for you to top, but I'm sort of drawing a blank. Well, names are starting to come to me, but no one is standing out as number one, so some of you can name some names...

I take that back, here's a First Team (but I bet it could be enhanced... well maybe not the two bigs):

Ryan Anderson
Amit Tamir
Jordan Mathews
Ryan Drew
Theo Robertson

What say ye?

EDIT: Oh crap, I left off somebody pretty obvious. Had I only thought this through...

---

Cal All-Time Leaders in 3pt%
1. Jordan Mathews .416
2. Jerome Randle .404

---

This list is incomplete. A more complete list is from the all-time Cal player statistics on Sports-Reference.com. Their list (3pt shooting 40% and above):

Cal All Time Career Leaders in 3pt%:

1. Theo Robertson .440
2. Billy Dreher .431
3. Grant Mullins .430
4. Jordan Mathews .417
5. Keith Smith .413
6. Bill Elleby .410
7. Ryan Forehan-Kelly .407
8. Jerome Randle .405
9. Omar Wilkes .404
10. Matt Bradley .402

Players do not often arrive in college ready to compete at their highest level. The first couple of years are often years of adjustment to the college game and improving their shots. It may be more meaningful to look at a player's best season. Again, from Sports-Reference, the all-time best seasons for some Cal players shooting the 3pt shot, percentage followed by year and attempts per game (A):

1. K J Roberts .591 (1994) 3.7A
2. Billy Dreher .500 (1991) 2.4A
3. Theo Robertson .487 (2009) 3.5A
4. Matt Bradley .472 (2019) 3.4A
5. Bill Elleby .464 (1992) 4.9A
6. Jerome Randle .463 (2009) 6.2A
7. Keith Smith .462 (1990) 2.8A
7. Jeff Powers .462 (2014) 1.8A
8. Ryan Forehan-Kelly .453 (2000) 1.8A
9. Omar Wilkes .453 (2006) 1.8A
10. Jordan Mathews ,443 (2015) 4.8A
11. Jalen Celestine .440 (2024) 2.4A
12. Grant Mullins .430 (2017) 5.2A
13. Shantay Legans .427 (2000) 3.3A
14. Ryan Drew .420 (1990) 5.1A
15. Justin Cobbs .413 (2012) 1.9A
16. Ryan Anderson .410 (2008) 4.7A
16. Jorge Gutierrez .410 (2010) 1.3A
17. Jabari Bird .409 (2016) 4.5A
18. Allen Crabbe .400 (2011) 5.0A

Some others mentioned in this thread:
Ryan Anderson .396 career, best season .410 (2008) 4.7A
Amit Tamir .365 career, best season 394 (2003) 5.0A
Kevin Johnson .387 career and best season (1987) 3.6A
Randy Duck .362 career, best season .386 (1996) 4.1A
Ayinde Ubaka .338 career, best season .372 (2006) 5.3A
Lamond Murray .337 career, best season .364 (1993) 3.3A
Joe Shipp .338 career, best season .354 (2003) 3.6A

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CALiforniALUM said:

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Josh Shipp

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You mean Joe! Josh was a bruin

Ed Gray.

stu said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Maybe Russ Critchfield too. If he had the three point line - wow.

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Same for Michael Chavez.

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Besides Critchfield remembered Charlie Perkins as a terrific shooter too. ..and what about Charley Johnson. No one shot better from the corners than Charley!

TilWeWobble said:

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Lamond Murray had the prettiest shot.

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Was going to mention him myself! Great shooter and player.

Critchfield and Charley Johnson also excellent candidates.

TilWeWobble said:

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Critchfield and Charley Johnson also excellent candidates.

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I was in Jr High when Charley, ("Charles" in the NBA) played and what I really remember was his hops rather than his shot - such an athletic guy! If you're going to mention Johnson, though, then you have to mention Phil Chenier. I think you put him up there with KJ and CJ as the guys just behind Kidd.

Phil Chenier had a lovely shot. As to Charlie Johnson, his shot was thrilling; sometimes behind the basket. And unlike Jerry West, had two NBA championship rings....could have been the MVP with the Bullets.

Ed Gray

wifeisafurd said:

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Big C said:

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End of that game, we were wondering how many he got.

"I'm sure it was at least 40."
"I bet he might've gotten 50!"

Then the announcer said 61, Damn...

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I saw that game. never seen any game so dominated by a guard.

My women's equivalent was when Alexis Gray Lawson dropped 37 of Cal's 57 points in an upset of highly ranked Stanford. Knocked in shots from anywhere. At one point Tara sent a three women "fence" around her, which failed to stop Alexis. She was the only Cal player with points in the last 10 minutes or so of the game.

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Jason Kidd couldn't shoot like House, but I saw him dominate a few games. What I remember about House's 61 was he was creating his shot and making them with someone in his face.

HearstMining said:

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TilWeWobble said:

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Critchfield and Charley Johnson also excellent candidates.

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I was in Jr High when Charley, ("Charles" in the NBA) played and what I really remember was his hops rather than his shot - such an athletic guy! If you're going to mention Johnson, though, then you have to mention Phil Chenier. I think you put him up there with KJ and CJ as the guys just behind Kidd.

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I remember Phil Chenier saying in an interview that Charley Johnson had taught him how to play defense when they were teammates at Cal. I also remember Charley Johnson being a star for the Warriors, helping to lead them to the 1974-75 NBA Championship. Johnson made a good number of key long range jump shots in the NBA (which would have been 3-point shots, except there was no 3-point line on the floor at the time). I think he won a 2nd NBA Championship ring, playing with the Washington Bullets.

SFCityBear said:

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HearstMining said:

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TilWeWobble said:

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Critchfield and Charley Johnson also excellent candidates.

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I was in Jr High when Charley, ("Charles" in the NBA) played and what I really remember was his hops rather than his shot - such an athletic guy! If you're going to mention Johnson, though, then you have to mention Phil Chenier. I think you put him up there with KJ and CJ as the guys just behind Kidd.

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I remember Phil Chenier saying in an interview that Charley Johnson had taught him how to play defense when they were teammates at Cal. I also remember Charley Johnson being a star for the Warriors, helping to lead them to the 1974-75 NBA Championship. Johnson made a good number of key long range jump shots in the NBA (which would have been 3-point shots, except there was no 3-point line on the floor at the time). I think he won a 2nd NBA Championship ring, playing with the Washington Bullets.

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Yup - CJ was an important contributor for both championship teams he played on. And Phil Chenier played for the Bullets in the Eastern Conference against guys like Frazier, Monroe, Maravich, and Havlicek and still made three NBA All-Star teams. Only a chronic back injury cut his career short.

Yeah, that team with CJ, Chenier, Truitt, and a couple others, like Harry Brown, my god what a team! Forgot about Jackie Ridgle and John Coughran!

LudwigsFountain said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Big C said:

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End of that game, we were wondering how many he got.

"I'm sure it was at least 40."
"I bet he might've gotten 50!"

Then the announcer said 61, Damn...

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I saw that game. never seen any game so dominated by a guard.

My women's equivalent was when Alexis Gray Lawson dropped 37 of Cal's 57 points in an upset of highly ranked Stanford. Knocked in shots from anywhere. At one point Tara sent a three women "fence" around her, which failed to stop Alexis. She was the only Cal player with points in the last 10 minutes or so of the game.

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Jason Kidd couldn't shoot like House, but I saw him dominate a few games. What I remember about House's 61 was he was creating his shot and making them with someone in his face.

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Oh absolutely less. And he could dominate in so many ways

HoopDreams said:

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Thanks. Any player shooting 40%+ with a significant number of shots are great shooters

But there is a big difference between a catch and shoot player like Theo and Celestine compared to players who were heavily defended and had to create or shoot on the move like Randle

For example I wonder what Jalen Cones' catch and shoot percentage vs his shots off the jump (we ran a ton of actions to get him open… sometimes to team's benefit, sometimes not)

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You make good points. I'd also add that in certain crucial situations, like the last few seconds in a game, a coach or a team might want to give the ball to a player who has been hot, or a player who doesn't have a pure-looking stroke. Just one of those guys who really hates to lose, who is determined to do something to win a game for you. Jorge, with his "a little unorthodox 3 point shot". Jeff Powers. Ryan Forehand Kelly. I don't think I would have given the ball to Dwight Tarwater for his clutch shot, and I might not have have given the ball to Justin Cobbs for that magical three that he made to win a big game. He had only a few seconds to drive the length of the court and work to find a spot where he could get open, and he did it. Cobbs was good enough all right, but I really don't like the modern play for the last shot, which is give the ball to your best player, and have him drive the length of the floor to create his own shot. I prefer we pass the ball up the floor, several passes if necessary, and then give it to the best shooter. It can save precious seconds.

As to Cone, I felt he did not have a repeatable stroke when he was shooting jump shots. When I went to games in that season, I sat under and behind the North basket in Haas, so I could see plays develop. When Cone went up for his jump shot, after the release of his shot, he seemed to fall off to his left, instead of coming down in the same plane as his feet and the basket were. And those shots were bad misses, clanking off the rim and having no chance of going in for a bucket. I think ideally to make an orthodox repeatable jumper, you should have your body facing the basket, and you should jump in plane with the basket. This will keep your arm motion in line with it at well. Cone just did not do that consistently, game to game. You want to hit the back rim, or just inside the front rim. Hitting the rim on either side, does not make for a consistent score.

Cone's best year shooting the three was his freshman year at VA tech. In his second season there, he suffered a foot injury, missed many games, and his percentage went way down. Then he transferred to Northern Arizona in the Big Sky. He finally had a .400 season in his second season there, and got enough attention to get signed by Madsen. Through all this, Cone's free throw percentage remained very steady and good, above 80% for 4 years. He free throws were all set shots, not jumpers. So I am guessing his stroke may have been affected by his foot injury, if it continued to linger, which might have accounted for some of his bad misses.

It was sad to watch. I really liked Cone. He was a devoted teammate, always encouraging his teammates when they were down. He was a floor leader in his heart, just maybe not so much in his abilities. That team badly needed a point guard, and did not have one.

SFCityBear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Thanks. Any player shooting 40%+ with a significant number of shots are great shooters

But there is a big difference between a catch and shoot player like Theo and Celestine compared to players who were heavily defended and had to create or shoot on the move like Randle

For example I wonder what Jalen Cones' catch and shoot percentage vs his shots off the jump (we ran a ton of actions to get him open… sometimes to team's benefit, sometimes not)

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You make good points. I'd also add that in certain crucial situations, like the last few seconds in a game, a coach or a team might want to give the ball to a player who has been hot, or a player who doesn't have a pure-looking stroke. Just one of those guys who really hates to lose, who is determined to do something to win a game for you. Jorge, with his "a little unorthodox 3 point shot". Jeff Powers. Ryan Forehand Kelly. I don't think I would have given the ball to Dwight Tarwater for his clutch shot, and I might not have have given the ball to Justin Cobbs for that magical three that he made to win a big game. He had only a few seconds to drive the length of the court and work to find a spot where he could get open, and he did it. Cobbs was good enough all right, but I really don't like the modern play for the last shot, which is give the ball to your best player, and have him drive the length of the floor to create his own shot. I prefer we pass the ball up the floor, several passes if necessary, and then give it to the best shooter. It can save precious seconds.

As to Cone, I felt he did not have a repeatable stroke when he was shooting jump shots. When I went to games in that season, I sat under and behind the North basket in Haas, so I could see plays develop. When Cone went up for his jump shot, after the release of his shot, he seemed to fall off to his left, instead of coming down in the same plane as his feet and the basket were. And those shots were bad misses, clanking off the rim and having no chance of going in for a bucket. I think ideally to make an orthodox repeatable jumper, you should have your body facing the basket, and you should jump in plane with the basket. This will keep your arm motion in line with it at well. Cone just did not do that consistently, game to game. You want to hit the back rim, or just inside the front rim. Hitting the rim on either side, does not make for a consistent score.

Cone's best year shooting the three was his freshman year at VA tech. In his second season there, he suffered a foot injury, missed many games, and his percentage went way down. Then he transferred to Northern Arizona in the Big Sky. He finally had a .400 season in his second season there, and got enough attention to get signed by Madsen. Through all this, Cone's free throw percentage remained very steady and good, above 80% for 4 years. He free throws were all set shots, not jumpers. So I am guessing his stroke may have been affected by his foot injury, if it continued to linger, which might have accounted for some of his bad misses.

It was sad to watch. I really liked Cone. He was a devoted teammate, always encouraging his teammates when they were down. He was a floor leader in his heart, just maybe not so much in his abilities. That team badly needed a point guard, and did not have one.

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agree that sometimes Cone would come off a screen and take an off balanced jumper

when he was balanced he could hit that shot, but when he forced it and therefore shot an off balanced shot off the bounce he missed it

guy was a gunner and seemed like a great teammate to be around, but I think he had too green a green light resulting in too high a usage rate ... if he was our 4th option, kinda like Celestine was, he would have had a better shooting percentage