he barely played last year at Valparaiso, and isn't on the roster this sea on

i guess his injuries never let him reach his potential
pretty clear it wasn't Cal's coaching staff that was the issue (like some felt)

HoopDreams;842218095 said:

---

he barely played last year at Valparaiso, and isn't on the roster this sea on

i guess his injuries never let him reach his potential
pretty clear it wasn't Cal's coaching staff that was the issue (like some felt)

---

http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=842183690#poststop

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi


And, of course, Garrett Sim. :bigpuke:

LOL!


I mean, look, there are clearly good white basketball players out there, and many have played in the Pac 10/12. Just look at Oregon with Luke Ridnour and Luke Jackson or USC recently with Nikola Vucevic and Rory O'Neil or even UCLA with Jason Kapono, Reeves Nelson, and the Wear twins. Or virtually the entire Stanford roster during their late-'80s to late-'90s heyday with Todd Lichti, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Tim Young, Curtis Borchardt, Andy Poppink, Pete Sauer, Ryan Mendez, David Harbour, etc.

But, by and large, our white guys just don't get it done on the basketball court. I don't know why.




Yes, yes, I know. I'm a big racist, blah blah. LOL!

HoopDreams;842218095 said:

---

he barely played last year at Valparaiso, and isn't on the roster this sea on

i guess his injuries never let him reach his potential
pretty clear it wasn't Cal's coaching staff that was the issue (like some felt)

---

Does Nick Vander Laan count?

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi


And, of course, Garrett Sim. :bigpuke:

LOL!


I mean, look, there are clearly good white basketball players out there, and many have played in the Pac 10/12. Just look at Oregon with Luke Ridnour and Luke Jackson or USC recently with Nikola Vucevic and Rory O'Neil or even UCLA with Jason Kapono, Reeves Nelson, and the Wear twins. Or virtually the entire Stanford roster during their late-'80s to late-'90s heyday with Todd Lichti, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Tim Young, Curtis Borchardt, Andy Poppink, Pete Sauer, Ryan Mendez, David Harbour, etc.

But, by and large, our white guys just don't get it done on the basketball court. I don't know why.




Yes, yes, I know. I'm a big racist, blah blah. LOL!

---

Ryan Anderson was pretty good. Kravish has been solid. And I expect Singer to have a pretty nice career here.

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi


And, of course, Garrett Sim. :bigpuke:

LOL!


I mean, look, there are clearly good white basketball players out there, and many have played in the Pac 10/12. Just look at Oregon with Luke Ridnour and Luke Jackson or USC recently with Nikola Vucevic and Rory O'Neil or even UCLA with Jason Kapono, Reeves Nelson, and the Wear twins. Or virtually the entire Stanford roster during their late-'80s to late-'90s heyday with Todd Lichti, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Tim Young, Curtis Borchardt, Andy Poppink, Pete Sauer, Ryan Mendez, David Harbour, etc.

But, by and large, our white guys just don't get it done on the basketball court. I don't know why.




Yes, yes, I know. I'm a big racist, blah blah. LOL!

---

Without even thinking about it, it seems almost totally bizarre that you didn't mention Ryan Anderson

You forgot Harper Kamp, Richard. He was a warrior.

Perhaps with his obvious omissions of Kamp and Anderson, his classification of Tamir as questionably "white," and the whole tenor of his topic, Richard is searching for something as stupid and galling as his obsession with the traitorous Garrett Sim!

Go Bears!

Probably reflects the current status of west coast BB more than anything. As a dad I have been struck by just how "different" things are in SoCal when it comes to youth sports. Here in the upscale suburbs baseball is a year round activity, with spring ball, fall ball, travel ball. There are a LOT of kids that are specializing at age 8. (I can't really understand why - it is a game with such low fitness benefits). There is a decent basketball scene but baseball (and to an extent soccer) rule the day.

Put these same exact kids in a cold weather climate and you would see a lot more hoops talent from all sorts of different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds.

socaltownie;842219258 said:

---

Probably reflects the current status of west coast BB more than anything. As a dad I have been struck by just how "different" things are in SoCal when it comes to youth sports. Here in the upscale suburbs baseball is a year round activity, with spring ball, fall ball, travel ball. There are a LOT of kids that are specializing at age 8. (I can't really understand why - it is a game with such low fitness benefits). There is a decent basketball scene but baseball (and to an extent soccer) rule the day.

Put these same exact kids in a cold weather climate and you would see a lot more hoops talent from all sorts of different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds.

---

Agreed.

At my grabdson's SF high school he was telling me how the court was shared between volley ball, wrestling, and other non basketball activities at this time.

Coming from Indiana where basketball is the state religion, I was shocked to know that any activity would curtail the use of what I myopically think of as the basketball court! Especially at this time of the year.

Go Bears!

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi


And, of course, Garrett Sim. :bigpuke:

LOL!


I mean, look, there are clearly good white basketball players out there, and many have played in the Pac 10/12. Just look at Oregon with Luke Ridnour and Luke Jackson or USC recently with Nikola Vucevic and Rory O'Neil or even UCLA with Jason Kapono, Reeves Nelson, and the Wear twins. Or virtually the entire Stanford roster during their late-'80s to late-'90s heyday with Todd Lichti, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Tim Young, Curtis Borchardt, Andy Poppink, Pete Sauer, Ryan Mendez, David Harbour, etc.

But, by and large, our white guys just don't get it done on the basketball court. I don't know why.




Yes, yes, I know. I'm a big racist, blah blah. LOL!

---

Starting for the Bears:

PG - Richard Midgley
SG - Randy Duck
F - Harper Kamp
F - Ryan Anderson
C - Amit Tamir

We're going to win a lot of games with this group

CalHoopFan;842219288 said:

---

Starting for the Bears:

PG - Richard Midgley
SG - Randy Duck
F - Harper Kamp
F - Ryan Anderson
C - Amit Tamir

We're going to win a lot of games with this group

---

I'd put Jerod Haase over Duck, despite him playing just one year here, he was a great college basketball player, and better than Duck, imo (though I am admittedly biased).

grandmastapoop;842219339 said:

---

I'd put Jerod Haase over Duck, despite him playing just one year here, he was a great college basketball player, and better than Duck, imo (though I am admittedly biased).

---

McNamara was better than Tamir, also.

Go Bears!

CalHoopFan;842219288 said:

---

Starting for the Bears:

PG - Richard Midgley
SG - Randy Duck
F - Harper Kamp
F - Ryan Anderson
C - Amit Tamir

We're going to win a lot of games with this group

---

And Sean Marks, Jerod Haase, Billy Dreher, Matt B

No love for Jon Wheeler???

Ryan Drew?

Sweet Lou had a son who was skilled enough to start over Jason Kidd. Case closed.

I liked Dave Stewart's game.

mikecohen;842219131 said:

---

Without even thinking about it, it seems almost totally bizarre that you didn't mention Ryan Anderson

---

I totally blanked on Ryan Anderson. Same goes for Harper Kamp.

That kind of changes things, though our hit rate on white basketball players still appears relatively low.

south bender;842219342 said:

---

McNamara was better than Tamir, also.

Go Bears!

---

Doesn't Mark McNamara go beyond 25 years? He was in the 1982 NBA draft, which puts him at the 31+ year mark.

calgldnbear;842219418 said:

---

No love for Jon Wheeler???

---

He played from 1985-87. That is beyond 25 years ago

[CENTER][CENTER][CENTER][/CENTER][/CENTER][/CENTER]

SFBearz;842219406 said:

---

And Sean Marks, Jerod Haase, Billy Dreher, Matt B

---

Thank God for google spelling suggestions. I could have spent the better part of the day trying to figure out how to spell "Matt Beeuwsaert."

Richard_Lee;842220292 said:

---

I totally blanked on Ryan Anderson. Same goes for Harper Kamp.

---

Please, you blanked on like 6 guys (Jerrod Haase, Ryan Drew, Matt freakin' Beesweurt!). I believe the phrase is "cherry picking" (albeit subconsciously).

Richard_Lee;842220292 said:

---

That kind of changes things, though our hit rate on white basketball players still appears relatively low.

---

It "appears relatively low" based on what? Compared to what? I bet it's not significantly different from our hit rate among all players, or the rate at other schools. And that's assuming you have an unambiguous definition of hit and miss.

Look, I know you miss Garret Sim. Hey, we all do ... sort of, in our own way. But that's no reason to start making stuff up.

Richard_Lee;842220292 said:

---

He played from 1985-87. That is beyond 25 years ago

---

Since I remember Jon ... does that make me old??

antipattern;842220327 said:

---

......It "appears relatively low" based on what? Compared to what? I bet it's not significantly different from our hit rate among all players, or the rate at other schools. .......

---

This.

A lot of fairly-well regarded recruits - say, 3 stars or higher - simply don't pan out. I'd suspect that the miss rate for black players, white players, green players, orange players, and purple-with-pink-polka-dot players are all around the same (controlling for 3 star vs. 4 star vs. 5 star).

Aside: I was supremely entertained by Richard Lee's 4-year hate fixation on Garrett Sim. To the point that I was almost sorry to see Mr. Sim graduate from Oregon. If Richard wants to launch some new public crazy obsession, that'd be just fine with me.

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi


And, of course, Garrett Sim. :bigpuke:

LOL!


I mean, look, there are clearly good white basketball players out there, and many have played in the Pac 10/12. Just look at Oregon with Luke Ridnour and Luke Jackson or USC recently with Nikola Vucevic and Rory O'Neil or even UCLA with Jason Kapono, Reeves Nelson, and the Wear twins. Or virtually the entire Stanford roster during their late-'80s to late-'90s heyday with Todd Lichti, Casey Jacobsen, Mark Madsen, Tim Young, Curtis Borchardt, Andy Poppink, Pete Sauer, Ryan Mendez, David Harbour, etc.

But, by and large, our white guys just don't get it done on the basketball court. I don't know why.




Yes, yes, I know. I'm a big racist, blah blah. LOL!

---

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man’s misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi’s heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

I felt that your continued obsession, contempt for a young Garrett Sim, was childish, and a little hateful, but this post about Cal not being able to develop good white players is illogical, disingenuous, and racist. I don’t know you well enough to say you are a racist, but the words in your post are racist, and there is no place for racism on this board. This Bear fan is not LOL.

You realize, of course, that according to Webster’s dictionary, there is no longer any idea in physical anthropology as dividing mankind into races. In the practical sense, there has been much interbreeding among various ethnicities as to begin to blur the distinction. But since much of the world has not been able to move beyond race as an identifier, let’s look at your argument:

To begin with, you cherry-picked which players you would consider or decide were white. Ryan Mendez is on your list of good white players. Mendez’ father was Cuban and his mother white. According to the political correctness of today, Mendez is not white, he is Hispanic, or Hispanic-American. So did you mean to include Hispanics in your list of white players? If so, you must include Chris Hernandez of Stanford, and Jorge Gutierrez of Cal.

And if you are going to include Ryan Mendez in your list of good white players, because his mother was white, and he is therefore 50% white, then you must also include Cal’s Jason Kidd on your list of white players, because his father was African-American and his mother white.

Then there is Cal's Tony Gonzales. His father was of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican ancestry, and his mother was of African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American ancestry. Does Tony make your list of whites? Both of his parents had some Caucasian ancestry.

How very magnanimous of you to include Amit Tamir, a Jew, in your “white” category. What other race would he be, since according to most Jews, Jewish is not, and never was a race?

Either you have forgotten to mention many of the good white players at Cal over the last 25 years, as others have ably pointed out, or you just cherry-picked a few of them to make up your list of successful white ballplayers. Your argument is disingenuous, because you did not include all the good white Cal players, and although you included many good white players from Stanford, Oregon, and USC, you neglected to give us the 25 year list of white players who played for those schools who did not become good players. And I would guess there are quite a few.

I will put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, using your definition of white, by stating that Ryan Anderson and Jason Kidd alone are better players than any of the white players in your list from Stanford, Oregon and USC.

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?

Oy vey. Its getting hot in here in Bear Insider..

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another issue...

Other than Randy Duck, Sean Marks, Richard Midgley, and possibly Ricky Kreklow (and Amit Tamir, if you consider him to be "white" in the traditional sense), have we ever recruited a white guy in the past 25 years who actually turned out to be a halfway decent college basketball player?

Here is what I'm thinking:

Ryan Jamison
Jack Hartman
Nick Van der Laan
Sam Rayburn
Jordi Geli
Saulius Kuzminskas
Taylor Harrison
Erik Bond
Eric Vierniesel
Alex Rossi




LOL!

---

Well you have a bad memory in the last 25 years:Ryan Anderson, Ryan Drew and Matt Beeuwsart were all good.

Richard_Lee;842220291 said:

---

Doesn't Mark McNamara go beyond 25 years? He was in the 1982 NBA draft, which puts him at the 31+ year mark.

---

Does that mean I can't throw Doug True into the mix?

SFCityBear;842220449 said:

---

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man’s misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi’s heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

I felt that your continued obsession, contempt for a young Garrett Sim, was childish, and a little hateful, but this post about Cal not being able to develop good white players is illogical, disingenuous, and racist. I don’t know you well enough to say you are a racist, but the words in your post are racist, and there is no place for racism on this board. This Bear fan is not LOL.

You realize, of course, that according to Webster’s dictionary, there is no longer any idea in physical anthropology as dividing mankind into races. In the practical sense, there has been much interbreeding among various ethnicities as to begin to blur the distinction. But since much of the world has not been able to move beyond race as an identifier, let’s look at your argument:

To begin with, you cherry-picked which players you would consider or decide were white. Ryan Mendez is on your list of good white players. Mendez’ father was Cuban and his mother white. According to the political correctness of today, Mendez is not white, he is Hispanic, or Hispanic-American. So did you mean to include Hispanics in your list of white players? If so, you must include Chris Hernandez of Stanford, and Jorge Gutierrez of Cal.

And if you are going to include Ryan Mendez in your list of good white players, because his mother was white, and he is therefore 50% white, then you must also include Cal’s Jason Kidd on your list of white players, because his father was African-American and his mother white.

Then there is Cal's Tony Gonzales. His father was of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican ancestry, and his mother was of African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American ancestry. Does Tony make your list of whites? Both of his parents had some Caucasian ancestry.

How very magnanimous of you to include Amit Tamir, a Jew, in your “white” category. What other race would he be, since according to most Jews, Jewish is not, and never was a race?

Either you have forgotten to mention many of the good white players at Cal over the last 25 years, as others have ably pointed out, or you just cherry-picked a few of them to make up your list of successful white ballplayers. Your argument is disingenuous, because you did not include all the good white Cal players, and although you included many good white players from Stanford, Oregon, and USC, you neglected to give us the 25 year list of white players who played for those schools who did not become good players. And I would guess there are quite a few.

I will put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, using your definition of white, by stating that Ryan Anderson and Jason Kidd alone are better players than any of the white players in your list from Stanford, Oregon and USC.

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?

---

That was thorough. I agree with it, though I did enjoy the Garrett Sim stuff.

barabbas;842220594 said:

---

Well you have a bad memory in the last 25 years:Ryan Anderson, Ryan Drew and Matt Beeuwsart were all good.

---

I'll agree with Anderson for sure.

Now, if only Braun had landed Nowitski....

Playing along, I agree with those who think our hit rate on players of African and European (including Middle Eastern) ancestry has been about the same (hit and miss). Asian has been about the same (Chang hit, Zhang miss? Lim would have been a hit...), but our real success (100%) has been with Latinos: Chavez, Guttierez and Gonzalez.

Viva La Raza!

Edit: Ooops, forgot about Rodriguez....Oh, well

calumnus;842220788 said:

---

I'll agree with Anderson for sure.

Now, if only Braun had landed Nowitski....

Playing along, I agree with those who think our hit rate on players of African and European (including Middle Eastern) ancestry has been about the same (hit and miss). Asian has been about the same (Chang hit, Zhang miss? Lim would have been a hit...), but our real success (100%) has been with Latinos: Chavez, Guttierez and Gonzalez.

Viva La Raza!

Edit: Ooops, forgot about Rodriguez....Oh, well

---

If you call Tony Gonzales a Latino, you are making one of my points, which is that a player of multiple ethnic heritage is whatever ethnicity we choose him to be. The current political correctness is if a player is of European and some other minority ethnicity, then we say the player is of the minority ethnicity extraction, and ignore the European component.

As I wrote, Gonzales' father is of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican heritage. His mother is African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American. How do you get "Latino" out of that? You just picked it to suit your own argument. Just like I picked Jason Kidd as being "white" to suite mine.

Gonzales is no more than 1/8 Latino, the Mexican part. Most Portuguese detest being called Latino. Gonzales is no more Latino than he is African-American or Native American. He has more Caucasian or European blood than anything else.

If we want to look at Latino ballplayers, and use the European definition, since the word is derived from Latin, the language of ancient Rome, Latino would include anyone from the areas of Europe that Rome once ruled. That would include France and Italy. When we talk about Italian-American ballplayers at Cal, John Caselli comes to mind, but he was all I could think of. The greatest Italian-American ballplayer ever to come out of the Bay Area was Hank Luisetti, the greatest basketball player of his era. Unfortunately, he went to Stanford.

Here is an article on Luisetti, with comments by Mike Montgomery:

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=36959

:beer:

I loved Billy Dreher, who could not handle all the yelling by Lou. After he transferred from UNLV, he was at Clark Kerr during the year he was sitting out. Had a brief talk with him while waiting for the campus shuttle. Cool kid (well, he's my age).

Also loved Ryan Drew. He was our umpire during the 1992 Spring IM softball season at Underhill field. Loved playing softball on a carpet.

SFCityBear;842220449 said:

---

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man's misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi's heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

[trimmed for space considerations]

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?

---

+1

R_Lee recently ventured to the football board but p!ssed off a lot of people, so returned to his regularly scheduled simplistic race-based basketball analysis here on the hoops board. same ol, same ol.

Richard_Lee;842219096 said:

---

This brings up another stupid non-issue that serious basketball people waste no time with...

---

fify.

calgldnbear;842220394 said:

---

Since I remember Jon ... does that make me old??

---

Yes.