Did anyone notice all the mid range jump shots yesterday from both sides in the Wisconsin Kentucky game? This shot has been disappearing from basketball, with the focus on three pointers. It was good to see offenses take what the defenses were giving them. It is far easier to make the unguarded 10-12 footer than to make an unguarded three. Much higher percentage shot. Oh, how I wish Tyrone Wallace would give up the threes until he has mastered the mid-range jumper.

Maybe the new guy will accomplish that.

SFCityBear;842301403 said:

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Did anyone notice all the mid range jump shots yesterday from both sides in the Wisconsin Kentucky game? This shot has been disappearing from basketball, with the focus on three pointers. It was good to see offenses take what the defenses were giving them. It is far easier to make the unguarded 10-12 footer than to make an unguarded three. Much higher percentage shot. Oh, how I wish Tyrone Wallace would give up the threes until he has mastered the mid-range jumper.

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Defending the 3 point line and the basket and forcing teams to take mid-range jumpers for 2 is what you generally want to do. It is a low percentage/low payoff shot for most players in D1. It is a good defensive strategy that took far too long after the addition of the 3 point shot for teams to adopt.

As you observe, to counter that strategy, the best players have added the mid-range jumper to their arsenal. They can shoot the three, drive to the hoop, make the dish, or pull-up for 2. That is why they are the best players.

The teams that are in the Final Four are there because they have the best players. They can make tough shots that most D1 players cannot.

As for Tyrone Wallace, I still want him to work on and master the three. Besides, he does often drive and pull up in the lane, which is a good shot for him. Becoming a consistent threat from 3 will open up everything for him.

Kravish is good for about 2-4 a game, until he starts rushing them. I like how he shoots them quickly to get them off. But on key possessions, I think he should make sure it's a solid shot before he chucks it up kind of blindly (he tries to use the quickness to his advantage but the downside is that late in the game defenders may have adjusted).

KoreAmBear;842301722 said:

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Kravish is good for about 2-4 a game, until he starts rushing them. I like how he shoots them quickly to get them off. But on key possessions, I think he should make sure it's a solid shot before he chucks it up kind of blindly (he tries to use the quickness to his advantage but the downside is that late in the game defenders may have adjusted).

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It will be interesting to see how Kravish's game will be effected by the graduation of Solomon, development of the young bigs and the new coaching staff.

with Kravish's quick release, he should be able to pump fake his defender fairly reliably

rathokan;842301741 said:

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with Kravish's quick release, he should be able to pump fake his defender fairly reliably

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Agreed. He has yet to really do this. Maybe first half, quick release. Second half, pump fake and take it to the rack. Vary it according to how they are playing you. I expect big things of David next season.

KoreAmBear;842301743 said:

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Agreed. He has yet to really do this. Maybe first half, quick release. Second half, pump fake and take it to the rack. Vary it according to how they are playing you. I expect big things of David next season.

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In 3 years David has not once done this.

Hoping he learns, and that means skillfully putting the ball on the floor.

Indeed, it would make him more valuable in a number of ways. For example, when he helps to break the press, there have been times when he was all alone and could have dribbled to the forecourt. Instead he has stood there, waiting for someone else to move the ball out of the backcourt.

Go Bears!

SFCityBear;842301403 said:

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Did anyone notice all the mid range jump shots yesterday from both sides in the Wisconsin Kentucky game? This shot has been disappearing from basketball, with the focus on three pointers. It was good to see offenses take what the defenses were giving them. It is far easier to make the unguarded 10-12 footer than to make an unguarded three. Much higher percentage shot. Oh, how I wish Tyrone Wallace would give up the threes until he has mastered the mid-range jumper.

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But you have to make three unguarded 10-12 footers to equal two made three pointers. Three point misses also result in more offensive rebounds.

I like the pull-up jumper as an alternative to forcing a drive all the way to the hoop in traffic if a guy is good at shooting it from 8-10. The worst shot in basketball is a two from anywhere near the three line.

As for Tyrone, what makes you think he'd hit a high percentage of shots on the move as opposed to open set threes?

bluesaxe;842301886 said:

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But you have to make three unguarded 10-12 footers to equal two made three pointers. Three point misses also result in more offensive rebounds.

I like the pull-up jumper as an alternative to forcing a drive all the way to the hoop in traffic if a guy is good at shooting it from 8-10. The worst shot in basketball is a two from anywhere near the three line.

As for Tyrone, what makes you think he'd hit a high percentage of shots on the move as opposed to open set threes?

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That is why a 3-2 zone makes so much sense in college basketball. Defend the 3 and defend the basket. Force teams to take long 2s. Players that can hit the three, or if that is defended, put the ball on the floor and take it to the hoop or, if that is defended, pull up for a mid-range jumper, are rare. The players that can do that have a future in the NBA. Teams with players that can do that get to the Final Four and the Championship.

south bender;842301797 said:

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In 3 years David has not once done this.

Hoping he learns, and that means skillfully putting the ball on the floor.

Indeed, it would make him more valuable in a number of ways. For example, when he helps to break the press, there have been times when he was all alone and could have dribbled to the forecourt. Instead he has stood there, waiting for someone else to move the ball out of the backcourt.

Go Bears!

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Yah you're right. I felt weird typing that haha. How about pump fake, put the defender in the popcorn machine, then take a step away. Gather. Take an open J.

bluesaxe;842301886 said:

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But you have to make three unguarded 10-12 footers to equal two made three pointers. Three point misses also result in more offensive rebounds.

I like the pull-up jumper as an alternative to forcing a drive all the way to the hoop in traffic if a guy is good at shooting it from 8-10. The worst shot in basketball is a two from anywhere near the three line.

As for Tyrone, what makes you think he'd hit a high percentage of shots on the move as opposed to open set threes?

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The point is the percentage is much higher for making the unguarded midrange jumper than it is for making the three, if you are skilled at both.

Your statement that three point misses make for more offensive rebounds is absolutely 100% untrue. In fact the opposite is true. The ball strikes the rim with more velocity, more momentum and makes a longer carom, putting the rebound up for grabs, so to speak. The offensive big who blocks out has his man behind him, and is now blocked out himself from getting to the long rebound. The shorter the shot, the shorter the carom on a miss, generally speaking. Since the ball stays around the basket on a missed short shot, blocking out is critical for the offensive rebounders, much more so than on three pointers.

The worst shot in basketball is a wide open dunk that misses.

Where do you get the idea that I "think (Tyrone) would hit a high percentage of shots on the move"? Where did I say anything about shots on the move? The thread is about mid-range jumpers. Wide open mid-range jumpers. These are not necessarily or even usually made on the move. Think Jorge coming off the double screen and receiving a pass for a catch and shoot 10 footer. Think Bak Bak finding a crease in the zone, and getting a pass for a catch and shoot 8 footer. Think David Kravish on a catch and shoot from 10-12 feet. None of these guys are on the move. Their moving has finished and they are receiving a pass to shoot.

Look, you have a lot of great points in a lot of posts, and I know you sometimes like to be real creative about what you feel we posters are thinking, but let's stick to the words that are posted here, and criticize those words, not some words you think we may have in our heads. Thanks.

:beer:

SFCityBear;842301974 said:

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The point is the percentage is much higher for making the unguarded midrange jumper than it is for making the three, if you are skilled at both.

Your statement that three point misses make for more offensive rebounds is absolutely 100% untrue. In fact the opposite is true. The ball strikes the rim with more velocity, more momentum and makes a longer carom, putting the rebound up for grabs, so to speak. The offensive big who blocks out has his man behind him, and is now blocked out himself from getting to the long rebound. The shorter the shot, the shorter the carom on a miss, generally speaking. Since the ball stays around the basket on a missed short shot, blocking out is critical for the offensive rebounders, much more so than on three pointers.

The worst shot in basketball is a wide open dunk that misses.

Where do you get the idea that I “think (Tyrone) would hit a high percentage of shots on the move”? Where did I say anything about shots on the move? The thread is about mid-range jumpers. Wide open mid-range jumpers. These are not necessarily or even usually made on the move. Think Jorge coming off the double screen and receiving a pass for a catch and shoot 10 footer. Think Bak Bak finding a crease in the zone, and getting a pass for a catch and shoot 8 footer. Think David Kravish on a catch and shoot from 10-12 feet. None of these guys are on the move. Their moving has finished and they are receiving a pass to shoot.

Look, you have a lot of great points in a lot of posts, and I know you sometimes like to be real creative about what you feel we posters are thinking, but let’s stick to the words that are posted here, and criticize those words, not some words you think we may have in our heads. Thanks.

:beer:

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I'm not really trying to criticize anything in this thread, but there are a few things in there I think you're mistaken about.

1. Three point shots statistically lead to more offensive rebounds than two-point jump shots. Shots in the paint very close to the basket produce the highest offensive rebound rate. Threes are next. That's one of the basic premises on which Rick Pitino developed his offensive system, which features a lot of three point shooting. The reason is exactly that they produce longer rebounds and give the offensive team more of a chance at them whereas shorter jumpshots tend to rebound shorter and favor the team with inside position on rebounds, typically the defense. The latest stuff from the new NBA stat site which charts every play during the season bears this out. Look it up if you don't believe me.

2. You seem focused on shooting percentage, but adjusted shooting percentage is a better statistical indicator of a shooter's value and a shot's value. My point was that while the ability to hit a pull-up jump shot is a good ability to have, that shot is not necessarily a better shot to take than an uncontested three even if the shooter hits 45% of the mid-range and only 37% of the threes when you factor in resulting offensive possessions off offensive rebounds. I'm not making this up, it's just fact. Here's a quote from one paper at a Sloan Analytics Conference that covers some of this stuff:

"We note that offensive rebound rates decrease as a function of shot distance with a sharp jump at the three-point line. This is very similar to effective field goal percentage as a function of shot distance. This result implies that mid-range shots are even worse than previously characterized due to their effects on offensive rebound rates. Strategically, teams have even more reason to eschew mid-range shots for shots closer to the basket or three-pointers."

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/108-sloan-sports-2012-maheswaran-chang_updated.pdf

3. From a coaching standpoint, the worst shot statistically in terms of being effective offense is the two point shot near the three point line. It has the poorest chance of going in of all the twos but none of the benefits of the three point distance. Good coaches have come to hate that shot, for a good reason. A missed dunk makes you groan, but a guy who keeps shooting long twos ought to lose playing time. Again, this isn't just my view, or even contrarian. It's pretty much accepted basketball these days.

4. I was thinking of a pull-up jumper when I spoke about shots on the move, as you see very few mid-range jumpers that aren't off the dribble. Of the examples you give, I think of both Bak and Kravish as shooting set shots more than jump shots, but okay, those aren't on the move. The Jorge curl off a screen is still a shot on the move, as are most mid-range jump shots. Not that they are bad shots, but they require a different level of body control than an open square up three. I haven't seen Ty shoot those shots much, though I like you would like to see them. But only from relatively short range.

I didn't state my thoughts clearly enough in the prior post but I was responding to what you said. Cheers.