Probably it is believed that I am advocating for giving Artis a second chance. I am not. I don't presume to know enough to do this.

I have only written that I am reasonably confident that Martin will make a good, responsible call on the matter. That he knows Artis and the facts surrounding him better than I do and than most posters on this site do. That Martin is not unaware of the likely negatives that would follow a decision by him to bring Dominic aboard. That if he nonetheless embraced Artis, he would have strong, compelling reasons for doing so, beyond Artis' capability with a basketball.

I have objected to the stone throwing at Artis, but that is not the same as my sitting in judgment over the kid and pronouncing him innocent, guilty or redeemed.

I am generally made uncomfortable by the piling on against some teenager, the convicting of such a kid in the court of public opinion.

Go Bears!

south bender;842321449 said:

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Probably it is believed that I am advocating for giving Artis a second chance. I am not. I don't presume to know enough to do this.

I have only written that I am reasonably confident that Martin will make a good, responsible call on the matter. That he knows Artis and the facts surrounding him better than I do and than most posters on this site do. That Martin is not unaware of the likely negatives that would follow a decision by him to bring Dominic aboard. That if he nonetheless embraced Artis, he would have strong, compelling reasons for doing so, beyond Artis' capability with a basketball.

I have objected to the stone throwing at Artis, but that is not the same as my sitting in judgment over the kid and pronouncing him innocent, guilty or redeemed.

I am generally made uncomfortable by the piling on against some teenager, the convicting of such a kid in the court of public opinion.

Go Bears!

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i agree, but he'd be cuonzo's responsibility. if he gambles on Artis and loses, itd be a pretty strong mark against cuonzo in the minds of the fanbase and id have to think a pretty strong mark against him from our administration. he'd be out on an island on this one. not sure if its a place id risk at this point if i were him. he has it good right now and a nice grace period as well to get the program how he wants it. im not sure id go and risk that if i were him

NYCGOBEARS;842321444 said:

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Nope

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Just to be clear, you think Oregon made the right decision and you would give him a 2nd chance at Cal?

UCBerkGrad;842321453 said:

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Just to be clear, you think Oregon made the right decision and you would give him a 2nd chance at Cal?

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IF CM makes the determination after reviewing all the facts and interviewing Artis that he deems it an acceptable risk and IF the 2nd chance came with many stipulations (grades, walk on, perfect on court and off court behavior) then maybe.

gobears725;842321446 said:

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the team has a lot of question marks both offensively and defensively at this point. its why adding a talent to the mix like artis from a pure basketball standpoint would be great if we could. its better to have the talent and let them compete and see where the chips fall for playing time and trying to mold it together than to not have it. a player of artis's talent would certainly have a place on a team like ours. the extracurrcular stuff though makes it very unwise and CM would be one small screwup from artis to messing up his own reputation. the quickest way to anger a fanbase like ours would be to bring someone like Artis in and if by some offchance he creates trouble here, people would have their pitchforks ready on this one. most every cal fan would rather lose a few more games than give up their dignity on this one.

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This. This is what I meant to say earlier in the thread.

I realize that the process is at an incredibly premature stage and that there may be no substance to this story at all, but this guy has absolutely no right to be at cal. We all sacrificed a great deal to make it to cal, and while I fully believe that second place is the first loser, I would find it incredibly disrespectful to give a scholarship to someone who has conducted himself in such a way.

Second chances are great, but second chances don't equal getting into the finest university in the world while many others, who have done things the right way, are turned away

GoCalBears;842321033 said:

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As talent Artis may be, why would ZO take another hella short pg. One shortie is enough of a gamble, but TWO? WTH!

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Artis is a solid 6'1" I wouldn't necessarily call that hell short. It's not 6'4" but 6'1" is not bad for college.

ctbear08;842321481 said:

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I realize that the process is at an incredibly premature stage and that there may be no substance to this story at all, but this guy has absolutely no right to be at cal. We all sacrificed a great deal to make it to cal, and while I fully believe that second place is the first loser, I would find it incredibly disrespectful to give a scholarship to someone who has conducted himself in such a way.

Second chances are great, but second chances don't equal getting into the finest university in the world while many others, who have done things the right way, are turned away

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I love when I see people act holier than thou. Kid made some mistakes as we all have at that age and some older. You don't get to decide who or who doesn't have a right to be somewhere. Especially since it's not your decision anyway.

RealScouting;842321485 said:

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I love when I see people act holier than thou. Kid made some mistakes as we all have at that age and some older. You don't get to decide who or who doesn't have a right to be somewhere. Especially since it's not your decision anyway.

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that many posters act holier than though and don't seem to remember youthful transgressions we are talking about a sex crime, proven or otherwise.
Even if the woman gave her permission three guys taking advantage of a woman is pretty freaking disgusting and I wouldn't want Cal to give a guy like that a second chance.

oh no... I find myself agreeing with Real Scouting. what has happened to me? time for rehab I suppose....
:rollinglaugh:

RealScouting;842321485 said:

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I love when I see people act holier than thou. Kid made some mistakes as we all have at that age and some older. You don't get to decide who or who doesn't have a right to be somewhere. Especially since it's not your decision anyway.

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yea but its also not often that the second opportunity is a better option than the first. throwing the ethics out the window for a minute, is the program in a position where we need to take the risk?

diva1;842321491 said:

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that many posters act holier than though and don't seem to remember youthful transgressions we are talking about a sex crime, proven or otherwise.
Even if the woman gave her permission three guys taking advantage of a woman is pretty freaking disgusting and I wouldn't want Cal to give a guy like that a second chance.

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You know, in the late sixties to early seventies, this sort of thing happened in the frats "all the time", mostly to high school girls. After a few years, Cal required reg cards to be checked at all parties.

Can't get any higher horse than that!

:bravo

petalumabear;842321492 said:

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oh no... I find myself agreeing with Real Scouting. what has happened to me? time for rehab I suppose....
:rollinglaugh:

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Mo betto?

RealScouting;842321485 said:

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I love when I see people act holier than thou. Kid made some mistakes as we all have at that age and some older. You don't get to decide who or who doesn't have a right to be somewhere. Especially since it's not your decision anyway.

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holier than thou because I think that someone who participated in a sex crime a few months ago shouldn't be admitted to cal on a basketball scholarship?

alright, bud

ctbear08;842321502 said:

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holier than thou because I think that someone who participated in a sex crime a few months ago shouldn't be admitted to cal on a basketball scholarship?

alright, bud

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well the crime itself honestly is pretty shakey. i personally dont think hes guilty of a crime. just sort of gross though. i mean its obviously not unheard of, but triple teaming a girl isnt normal i dont think

ctbear08;842321502 said:

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holier than thou because I think that someone who participated in a sex crime a few months ago shouldn't be admitted to cal on a basketball scholarship?

alright, bud

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None of us were there when whatever happened that night happened and all we have is the young ladies side of the story. Unless you know more than everybody else on this board knows I would suggest you withhold judgement

RealScouting;842321506 said:

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None of us were there when whatever happened that night happened and all we have is the young ladies side of the story. Unless you know more than everybody else on this board knows I would suggest you withhold judgement

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We only know the girls side. So what, these 3 guys should have had better sense and a small snippet of morals

RealScouting;842321506 said:

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None of us were there when whatever happened that night happened and all we have is the young ladies side of the story. Unless you know more than everybody else on this board knows I would suggest you withhold judgement

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Did you read the police report? Absolutely disgusting and reprehensible. Oregon did the right thing in kicking those guys off the team and they probably know more than we do. Add in the earlier transgression in illegally selling merchandise and that is more than enough for me to say "no thanks".

As to being "holier than thou", I would wager very, very few posters on this board have an extensvie police report on any of their past transgressions. He was already suspsended once before and then kicked out of the school for this. I think "judgement" has already been made here.

As for second chances, great, give him a second chance. As an almuni, I expect higher standards from our program and would prefer he get his second chance somewhere else.

RealScouting;842321506 said:

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None of us were there when whatever happened that night happened and all we have is the young ladies side of the story. Unless you know more than everybody else on this board knows I would suggest you withhold judgement

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While you are right that I was not there, and while you are also right that we only have one side of the story, I maintain my opinion that cal is better than that

ctbear08;842321513 said:

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While you are right that I was not there, and while you are also right that we only have one side of the story, I maintain my opinion that cal is better than that

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u do know that we employed tosh and i bet he was shady when he was here too. are we better than that?

RealScouting;842321506 said:

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None of us were there when whatever happened that night happened and all we have is the young ladies side of the story. Unless you know more than everybody else on this board knows I would suggest you withhold judgement

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Even so, I think you'd feel differently if that were daughter.

gobears725;842321519 said:

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u do know that we employed tosh and i bet he was shady when he was here too. are we better than that?

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Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because we have effed up in the past, we should go ahead and forget our ethics in the future?

Hell yah we are better than tosh. I'd push to the very end to see cal athletics be successful, but I would rather burn the whole thing down than tarnish the reputation and standing of our university

ctbear08;842321525 said:

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Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because we have effed up in the past, we should go ahead and forget our ethics in the future?

Hell yah we are better than tosh. I'd push to the very end to see cal athletics be successful, but I would rather burn the whole thing down than tarnish the reputation and standing of our university

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my point is that we arent really different than any other school. we dont have some rigorous admissions for our athletes. we'll bend the rules like any other school if the opportunity seems right. if you think we are any different, then youre blind to the reality that is revenue college sports.

letting someone like artis in does nothing to tarnish our school, our reputation unless he starts misbehaving here. all we would be doing is giving him a chance. did masoli going to miss st tarnish their school? no. what id be concerned about is his behavior repeating itself. he need to submit himself to a psych eval and agreement to counseling if the psych eval doesnt come back clean. we'd have to do all our homework on him. then its a hard maybe. he'd then have to show that he really wants to be here and really get his act together.

even then, i dont think that we need to let him come here because i think we can use the scholarship on the 2015 class. but if he were to come id want the above done to try to minimize our risk.

gobears725;842321530 said:

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my point is that we arent really different than any other school. we dont have some rigorous admissions for our athletes. we'll bend the rules like any other school if the opportunity seems right. if you think we are any different, then youre blind to the reality that is revenue college sports.

letting someone like artis in does nothing to tarnish our school, our reputation unless he starts misbehaving here. all we would be doing is giving him a chance. did masoli going to miss st tarnish their school? no. what id be concerned about is his behavior repeating itself. he need to submit himself to a psych eval and agreement to counseling if the psych eval doesnt come back clean. we'd have to do all our homework on him. then its a hard maybe. he'd then have to show that he really wants to be here and really get his act together.

even then, i dont think that we need to let him come here because i think we can use the scholarship on the 2015 class. but if he were to come id want the above done to try to minimize our risk.

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I believe that it is possible to uphold the standards of the university and still be successful in athletics. The second we start forfeiting these standards on a large-scale, cutting library hours, or begin diverting funds, I worry about where things are going.

And I disagree with you regarding artis. Too many people work too hard to get to cal. No doubt, artis is young and deserves a second chance, just not at cal. With no disrespect to miss state, I really don’t see the comparison.

ctbear08;842321540 said:

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I believe that it is possible to uphold the standards of the university and still be successful in athletics. The second we start forfeiting these standards on a large scale, cutting library hours, or begin diverting funds, I worry about where things are going.

And I disagree with you regarding artis. Too many people work too hard to get to cal. No doubt, artis is young and deserves a second chance, just not at cal. With no disrespect to miss state, I really don't see the comparison.

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well actually youre not really disagreeing with me. i dont think we should go after artis either, just for different reasons. i think we have better options in 2015 and its a chance we really shouldnt take. i was just trying to offer a different perspective and just that we were considering artis should show you that our athletic department does not operate on the same values as the rest of the university and likely never will. its a hypocrisy. one i think that people should be aware of. we cant as a fanbase say things like we're better than that. cause we arent. so as fans when we hold our athletic department to that standard, i feel its a delusion

gobears725;842321519 said:

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u do know that we employed tosh and i bet he was shady when he was here too. are we better than that?

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You're comparing Tosh with what Artis did? Questionable recruiting tactics that (by the way) did not result in any findings I'm aware of versus being found guilty of illegally selling merchandise, getting suspended, then being part of a police investigation for rape and getting kicked out of the school? I fail to see any comparison.

HKBear97;842321550 said:

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You're comparing Tosh with what Artis did? Questionable recruiting tactics that (by the way) did not result in any findings I'm aware of versus being found guilty of illegally selling merchandise, getting suspended, then being part of a police investigation for rape and getting kicked out of the school? I fail to see any comparison.

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no im just saying that we're dirty. we'll employ dirty employees, we'll let in questionable athletes. artis would really push the envelope. im saying that those that hold our athletic department to some high moral code is deluding themselves. we arent any better than most college programs

OneTopOneChickenApple;842321520 said:

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Even so, I think you'd feel differently if that were daughter.

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And I think you would feel differently if Dominic was your son and he was convicted by the public before his side of the story was heard

HKBear97;842321512 said:

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Did you read the police report? Absolutely disgusting and reprehensible. Oregon did the right thing in kicking those guys off the team and they probably know more than we do. Add in the earlier transgression in illegally selling merchandise and that is more than enough for me to say "no thanks".

As to being "holier than thou", I would wager very, very few posters on this board have an extensvie police report on any of their past transgressions. He was already suspsended once before and then kicked out of the school for this. I think "judgement" has already been made here.

As for second chances, great, give him a second chance. As an almuni, I expect higher standards from our program and would prefer he get his second chance somewhere else.

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I think there is a serious disconnect on your part. Yes, I read the police report and like I said in my earlier post. It is all HER SIDE of the story. Police reports are filed by people where the police interview the victim and get statements from that person. That's all it is, nothing more, nothing less. Please don't be naive enough to think that a police report is the end all be all in any investigation. They were dismissed from the university for political expedience. Please spare me this notion that the school is so morally upright and they were let go because of this. They were let go because whether they were guilty or not, it brings bad publicity to the university and the program. The University of Oregon couldn't care less about that young lady or those young men. You are one of the problems with our society today in that you have formed an opinion on a young man's innocence with nowhere near enough factual information to form that opinion. That's what holier than thou means. How would you like it if somebody accused you of something and people convicted you without ever knowing your side of it ? I'm pretty sure you would find plenty of fault in that but since it's you passing the judgement it's ok.

gobears725;842321552 said:

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no im just saying that we're dirty. we'll employ dirty employees, we'll let in questionable athletes. artis would really push the envelope. im saying that those that hold our athletic department to some high moral code is deluding themselves. we arent any better than most college programs

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Of course Cal is no bastion of righteousness. No program is. But for me, actions that involve NCAA sanctions versus actions that involve law enforcement are different.

HKBear97;842321556 said:

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Of course Cal is no bastion of righteousness. No program is. But for me, actions that involve NCAA sanctions versus actions that involve law enforcement are different.

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No charges were filed because the young lady interview with Eugene officers was inconsistent and left too much reasonable doubt, This is not the first time that a young lady has falsely accused someone and it won't be the last, see the accusations against the Duke lacrosse team. Not saying they did or didn't rape her, but unless you were in the room that night it would be wise to withhold judgement like I said

HKBear97;842321556 said:

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Of course Cal is no bastion of righteousness. No program is. But for me, actions that involve NCAA sanctions versus actions that involve law enforcement are different.

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he wasnt convicted of anything. they dont even have enough to charge him. the only thing im completely sure of is that hes really gross and likes triple teaming girls. i was just trying to present a different perspective because its one that our coaches considered. our coaching staff obviously wasnt scared away because of some moral code. they werent scared away because of rape. so im looking at other reasons why we either should or shouldnt accept him. im just furthering the discussion because our staff went past the morality of what he did. my stance is that we can use the scholarship and get better players in the pretty loaded 2015 class. thats my logical reasoning for not getting him. frankly though i dont feel that strongly one way or another. if we give him a chance, they just better not mess up and let him screw up on cals watch.

RealScouting;842321553 said:

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And I think you would feel differently if Dominic was your son and he was convicted by the public before his side of the story was heard

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He hasn't been charged or convicted of anything. But even so, if he did these things in high school, would you even consider recruiting him?

gobears725;842321552 said:

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no im just saying that we're dirty. we'll employ dirty employees, we'll let in questionable athletes. artis would really push the envelope. im saying that those that hold our athletic department to some high moral code is deluding themselves. we arent any better than most college programs

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But you're comparing "dirty" employees who's actions we don't know about to someone who we do.

RealScouting;842321554 said:

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You are one of the problems with our society today in that you have formed an opinion on a young man's innocence with nowhere near enough factual information to form that opinion. That's what holier than thou means. How would you like it if somebody accused you of something and people convicted you without ever knowing your side of it ? I'm pretty sure you would find plenty of fault in that but since it's you passing the judgement it's ok.

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Fact: November 2013 Artis was suspended nine games for illegally selling shoes. Fact: May 2014 Artis was investigated for forcible rape. No charges were filed. Dismissed from the University of Oregon.

I've done a lot of stupid things in my life, but I've never been suspended, the subject of a police investigation nor dismissed from school. That is enough information for me to be cautious. If you had a daughter and found out her boyfriend had been suspended from college and later dismissed for being falsely accuesed of rape, you wouldn't form a different opinion of that person?

Like I said, great for him to get a second chance, but I would prefer it not be at Cal. (Not that my opinion matters on this).