RealScouting;842321554 said:

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I think there is a serious disconnect on your part. Yes, I read the police report and like I said in my earlier post. It is all HER SIDE of the story. Police reports are filed by people where the police interview the victim and get statements from that person. That's all it is, nothing more, nothing less. Please don't be naive enough to think that a police report is the end all be all in any investigation. They were dismissed from the university for political expedience. Please spare me this notion that the school is so morally upright and they were let go because of this. They were let go because whether they were guilty or not, it brings bad publicity to the university and the program. The University of Oregon couldn't care less about that young lady or those young men. You are one of the problems with our society today in that you have formed an opinion on a young man's innocence with nowhere near enough factual information to form that opinion. That's what holier than thou means. How would you like it if somebody accused you of something and people convicted you without ever knowing your side of it ? I'm pretty sure you would find plenty of fault in that but since it's you passing the judgement it's ok.

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Rape is one of the most underreported and undercharged crimes in the US, for reasons I could not even begin to explain to someone of your feral idiocy. It is, however, the last bastion of a bonafide ass and misogynist to say "charges were dropped...you don't know what really happened...duh...Duke!" Being an idiot is bad enough, being a rape apologist is a whole different bag.

CaliforniaUberAlles;842321569 said:

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Rape is one of the most underreported and undercharged crimes in the US, for reasons I could not even begin to explain to someone of your feral idiocy. It is, however, the last bastion of a bonafide ass and misogynist to say "charges were dropped...you don't know what really happened...duh...Duke!" Being an idiot is bad enough, being a rape apologist is a whole different bag.

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I think the reading comprehension of some of you is elementary school level at best. I have not at any time in any of my post excused rape. What I have said is that nobody, including myself knows whether or not that young lady was actually raped or not. Again, unless you were there, shut up about it. Furthermore, stall me out on all the idiot names man, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I do know we are all innocent until proven guilty, at least that's what I was told.

RealScouting;842321570 said:

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I think the reading comprehension of some of you is elementary school level at best. I have not at any time in any of my post excused rape. What I have said is that nobody, including myself knows whether or not that young lady was actually raped or not. Again, unless you were there, shut up about it.

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In this instance, we have a detailed police report, no contravening denial and a school that did it's own inquiry and then booted the alleged perpetrators. Oh and there's that history of unprosecuted rape. So yes we do have something to go on and thankfully we didn't have to be in the bedroom to watch an alleged sexual assault. And spare me the Oregon booted them out of some bizarre political expediency. That's so blatantly made up for arguments sake I can't bother to address it.

HKBear97;842321568 said:

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Fact: November 2013 Artis was suspended nine games for illegally selling shoes. Fact: May 2014 Artis was investigated for forcible rape. No charges were filed. Dismissed from the University of Oregon.

I've done a lot of stupid things in my life, but I've never been suspended, the subject of a police investigation nor dismissed from school. That is enough information for me to be cautious. If you had a daughter and found out her boyfriend had been suspended from college and later dismissed for being falsely accuesed of rape, you wouldn't form a different opinion of that person?

Like I said, great for him to get a second chance, but I would prefer it not be at Cal. (Not that my opinion matters on this).

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You're exactly right. You're opinion doesn't matter on this. Kudos to you for being a model citizen and not doing some of the things that this young man has been accused of doing. Problem is because you haven't done some of those things it doesn't make you his judge or jury nor does it give you the right to say where he should or shouldn't be given a second chance. If Cal decides to bring the young man into the program that is their prerogative and their right. If you dislike it, I would be willing to bet that the powers that be at the University of California will not lose an ounce of sleep over it. Mr. Self Righteous

OneTopOneChickenApple;842321565 said:

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But you're comparing "dirty" employees who's actions we don't know about to someone who we do.

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its why this one really pushes the envelope. i think it sort of shows how willing and far this new staff is willing to go to win. in the past with cal at least we've pretty much been discreet about handling employees or players that we know are doing some underhanded stuff. this one theyre completely not afraid to be front and center with it. the monty era sure is over, ill say that

CaliforniaUberAlles;842321572 said:

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In this instance, we have a detailed police report, no contravening denial and a school that did it's own inquiry and then booted the alleged perpetrators. Oh and there's that history of unprotected rape. So yes we do have something to go on and thankfully we didn't have to be in the bedroom to watch an alleged sexual assault. And spare me the Oregon booted them out of some bizarre political expediency. That's so blatantly made up for arguments sake I can't bother to address it.

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You need to do your homework because there a number of accusations made the young lady that the players denied. School inquiry ? Really ? You actually believe that ? That's what they tell the media to make it seem like they did their due diligence and didn't rush to judgement. Like when a company fires a person from a job afar they suspend them for 2 weeks with pay. They knew when they suspended the person they would fire them. Their was no investigation needed. You need to get out of your Utopia and live in the real world. Naive enough to think Oregon booted them because it was the right thing to do is what is idiotic. They did it because it left a black eye on the school. End of story.

RealScouting;842321576 said:

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You need to do your homework because there a number of accusations made the young lady that the players denied. Naive enough to think Oregon booted them because it was the right thing to do is what is idiotic. They did it because it left a black eye on the school. End of story.

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Really? Somehow I think you're making that up. Just cause you're a basketball scouting guru (chuckle...snort) does not make you privy to the motivations of the Oregon AD dept.

RealScouting;842321573 said:

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You're exactly right. You're opinion doesn't matter on this. Kudos to you for being a model citizen and not doing some of the things that this young man has been accused of doing. Problem is because you haven't done some of those things it doesn't make you his judge or jury nor does it give you the right to say where he should or shouldn't be given a second chance. If Cal decides to bring the young man into the program that is their prerogative and their right. If you dislike it, I would be willing to bet that the powers that be at the University of California will not lose an ounce of sleep over it. Mr. Self Righteous

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If a model citizen in your book is someone that was never suspended, arrested or dismissed from school, you certainly have some interesting standards. You do realize he wasn't just accused of illegally selling shoes, he was found guilty of doing so and suspended. Actions have consequences and clearly up to this point in his career, Artis has made some very questionable decisions. If we're going to call each other names, I'll refer to you as Mr. Naive. You'd be naive to think no one at Cal wouldn't have issues bringing in an athlete with Artis' background.

gobears725;842321446 said:

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the team has a lot of question marks both offensively and defensively at this point. its why adding a talent to the mix like artis from a pure basketball standpoint would be great if we could. its better to have the talent and let them compete and see where the chips fall for playing time and trying to mold it together than to not have it. a player of artis's talent would certainly have a place on a team like ours. the extracurrcular stuff though makes it very unwise and CM would be one small screwup from artis to messing up his own reputation. the quickest way to anger a fanbase like ours would be to bring someone like Artis in and if by some offchance he creates trouble here, people would have their pitchforks ready on this one. most every cal fan would rather lose a few more games than give up their dignity on this one.

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Don't think anyone could have predicted that a motley crew of anarchists and homeless would hold up construction of the SAHPC for two years. Rightly or wrongly, adding Artis to the program will produce extremely negative reactions from multiple Cal stakeholders (feminists, faculty, administration) and various Berkeley groups. There's far from a consensus opinion here, so it's clear that not all students, alums, and fans will be on board too.

There are 350+ D-I programs, so Artis will land somewhere. May not be his first choice, but multiple programs will offer him another chance. He'd probably be better off at a mid-major program not located in a major media market.

gobears725;842321530 said:

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my point is that we arent really different than any other school. we dont have some rigorous admissions for our athletes. we'll bend the rules like any other school if the opportunity seems right. if you think we are any different, then youre blind to the reality that is revenue college sports.

letting someone like artis in does nothing to tarnish our school, our reputation unless he starts misbehaving here. all we would be doing is giving him a chance. did masoli going to miss st tarnish their school? no. what id be concerned about is his behavior repeating itself. he need to submit himself to a psych eval and agreement to counseling if the psych eval doesnt come back clean. we'd have to do all our homework on him. then its a hard maybe. he'd then have to show that he really wants to be here and really get his act together.

even then, i dont think that we need to let him come here because i think we can use the scholarship on the 2015 class. but if he were to come id want the above done to try to minimize our risk.

---

This is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.

Also, having read the police report, Artis appears to be the most innocent of the 3. The victim actually had consensual sex with Artis the morning after the alleged rape took place.

The thing is, we are different than many schools, and our AD acts accordingly, sometimes to our own detriment. One of those major differences being an insanely vocal anti athletics group on campus. A group that regularly publishes anti Cal athletics stories on all the major publications. And given the current climate of sexual allegations and law suits on campus, for Artis to even be mentioned in the same articles as the other two would be terrible PR for the AD. They are also incapable of handling PR. Cal athletics may not want to be different from its peers, but the Berkeley culture under which it operates is in a world of its own. And there really isn't anything like it in major D1 sports.

You can't have a year long 'living in trees' protest for a major sports capital project which set the program back several years and then say that Cal athletics isn't different. It may not like it, but it exists in a different world.

Sure, Cal athletics can pretend like it's not different and take who they want, when they want. Bad or average grades be damned. Of course then you'll end up with the #1 public institution in the world with the worst APR and grad rates in major sports. Why? Because even though you thought we were just like everybody else, it turns out we weren't and there wasn't an easy way for these kids to get by. At least not enough of them to avoid humiliation.

socaliganbear;842321664 said:

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The thing is, we are different than many schools, and our AD acts accordingly, sometimes to our own detriment. One of those major differences being an insanely vocal anti athletics group on campus. A group that regularly publishes anti Cal athletics stories on all the major publications. And given the current climate of sexual allegations and law suits on campus, for Artis to even be mentioned in the same articles as the other two would be terrible PR for the AD. They are also incapable of handling PR. Cal athletics may not want to be different from its peers, but the Berkeley culture under which it operates is in a world of its own. And there really isn't anything like it in major D1 sports.

You can't have a year long 'living in trees' protest for a major sports capital project which set the program back several years and then say that Cal athletics isn't different. It may not like it, but it exists in a different world.

Sure, Cal athletics can pretend like it's not different and take who they want, when they want. Bad or average grades de damned. Of course then you'll end up with the #1 public institution in the world with the worst APR and grad rates in major sports. Why? Because even though you thought we were just like everybody else, it turns out we weren't and there wasn't an easy way for these kids to get by. At least not enough of them to avoid humiliation.

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i think the key for us with bringing someone like Artis aboard is exactly in that last sentence. avoiding humiliation. Is Artis such a bad character that we theres a good chance that he will cause humilation? just in terms of risk/reward, its more risk than i like for the reward that Artis could bring. he could be a starting point guard, a good player. hes not going to be great. hes not a program changing type player. so then you bring him aboard with the above social obstacles that you say that occurs with berkeley and it really seems like more trouble than its worth, especially considering that we seem to have a pretty good shot at some good players in the 2015 class.

Maybe with Artis you get a few more wins in 2014. so we go from an 18-20 win team to maybe a 20-23 win team. i think the question is that in 2015(the year i think Bird likely leaves), you could then have an experienced team of Artis, Singer, Mathews, Bird, wallace, Mboute, Chauca, Rooks, Kingsley. That one player in Artis really elevates our depth vs having a true frosh instead. He'd probably be the difference on paper that could really give us a really deep team that year, so you can see why we're maybe willing to push the envelope with him. its pretty imposing that we could go 9 deep with him of all experienced players.

theres a lot of social issues that stand in the way, probably rightly so. again im just trying to shed some light on how badly we want to win and how far we seem to be willing to push the envelope to get there. maybe its a good thing that there seems to be enough of a pulse with the staff that they're willing to consider controversial players in order to win. maybe not, its definitely a different direction that the program is taking.

There is something to be said for abstinence from "recreational sex", which "at best" this episode was (by stretch of your imagination) and the added consensual (w/ DA) event the next day. These clueless recreating zipdick Duck wankers (the drakes and the duck) just followed their bones whenever they pointed north. Go figure.

Forget the Oregon Artis,

we need this Artis to visit Cal.


http://www.remembertheaba.com/onlyintheabamaterial/bighairmaterial/gilmore/gilmore.html

ctbear08;842321525 said:

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Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because we have effed up in the past, we should go ahead and forget our ethics in the future?

Hell yah we are better than tosh. I'd push to the very end to see cal athletics be successful, but I would rather burn the whole thing down than tarnish the reputation and standing of our university

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what was your opinion on Marshawn when he was accused of rape a few years ago

I will base my opinion on whatever Dirks says

MiZery;842321700 said:

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what was your opinion on Marshawn when he was accused of rape a few years ago

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As far as crimes and conduct goes, I think that if a student athlete does something that would otherwise get a student kicked out of cal, the student athlete should face the same treatment. I feel this way about prospective student athletes as well.

ctbear08;842321727 said:

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As far as crimes and conduct goes, I think that if a student athlete does something that would otherwise get a student kicked out of cal, the student athlete should face the same treatment. I feel this way about prospective student athletes as well.

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so lets just say that an applicant to Cal were to apply for Cal, has all the necessary requisites that would normally get them into Cal. 4.0, bunch of extracurriculars etc, but they had an open rape investigation into them of which there wasnt enough evidence to charge. I'd have to think that the rape investigation wouldnt even be known about by our admissions people. Thered be no public record outside of the police report and our admissions people i highly doubt are trying to dig up records with the police department. It wouldnt be on their criminal history. seems like a student that didnt play basketball would have the upperhand in getting into Cal. but lets just say for kicks that our admissions people happen to find out about an open rape investigation for an applicant. Would they turn the applicant down?

I sort of think that Artis in this case is subject to higher standards because of the visibility of his name. maybe rightly so because his association with the university carries much more visibility with the public than most normal students.

gobears725;842321732 said:

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so lets just say that an applicant to Cal were to apply for Cal, has all the necessary requisites that would normally get them into Cal. 4.0, bunch of extracurriculars etc, but they had an open rape investigation into them of which there wasnt enough evidence to charge. I'd have to think that the rape investigation wouldnt even be known about by our admissions people. Thered be no public record outside of the police report and our admissions people i highly doubt are trying to dig up records with the police department. It wouldnt be on their criminal history. seems like a student that didnt play basketball would have the upperhand in getting into Cal. but lets just say for kicks that our admissions people happen to find out about an open rape investigation for an applicant. Would they turn the applicant down?

I sort of think that Artis in this case is subject to higher standards because of the visibility of his name. maybe rightly so because his association with the university carries much more visibility with the public than most normal students.

---

+1

gobears725;842321732 said:

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so lets just say that an applicant to Cal were to apply for Cal, has all the necessary requisites that would normally get them into Cal. 4.0, bunch of extracurriculars etc, but they had an open rape investigation into them of which there wasnt enough evidence to charge. I'd have to think that the rape investigation wouldnt even be known about by our admissions people. Thered be no public record outside of the police report and our admissions people i highly doubt are trying to dig up records with the police department. It wouldnt be on their criminal history. seems like a student that didnt play basketball would have the upperhand in getting into Cal. but lets just say for kicks that our admissions people happen to find out about an open rape investigation for an applicant. Would they turn the applicant down?

I sort of think that Artis in this case is subject to higher standards because of the visibility of his name. maybe rightly so because his association with the university carries much more visibility with the public than most normal students.

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That's a valid question/point.

I agree with you in that our student athletes, like artis, are sometimes held to a higher standard because of the increased visibility, but that's part of the deal with representing your university.

gobears725;842321732 said:

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I'd have to think that the rape investigation wouldnt even be known about by our admissions people. Thered be no public record outside of the police report and our admissions people i highly doubt are trying to dig up records with the police department. It wouldnt be on their criminal history.

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But like Donald Sterling and the NBA, it is known.

gobears725;842321732 said:

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so lets just say that an applicant to Cal were to apply for Cal, has all the necessary requisites that would normally get them into Cal. 4.0, bunch of extracurriculars etc, but they had an open rape investigation into them of which there wasnt enough evidence to charge. I'd have to think that the rape investigation wouldnt even be known about by our admissions people. Thered be no public record outside of the police report and our admissions people i highly doubt are trying to dig up records with the police department. It wouldnt be on their criminal history. seems like a student that didnt play basketball would have the upperhand in getting into Cal. but lets just say for kicks that our admissions people happen to find out about an open rape investigation for an applicant. Would they turn the applicant down?

I sort of think that Artis in this case is subject to higher standards because of the visibility of his name. maybe rightly so because his association with the university carries much more visibility with the public than most normal students.

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Gee. With this type of justice, a person could merely accuse another of a crime, and they'd suffer the consequences straight away.

This logic where certain people are held to a higher standard therefore flies in the face of our justice system.

#justsayin'

concordtom;842321771 said:

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Gee. With this type of justice, a person could merely accuse another of a crime, and they'd suffer the consequences straight away.

This logic where certain people are held to a higher standard therefore flies in the face of our justice system.

#justsayin'

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This is NOT the criminal law. OTOH, being a politician is much worse. I have often wondered how some people can get away with making political capital behind the most outrageous lies, which I don't even think they believe. But it is an extremely strong current in our political culture; and, if you're a politician who is subjected to it, you have no choice but to fight it; and, if it goes on for years: What a waste of time -- unless your goal is to stop anything meaningful from happening. But the point is only that there are different games, and different contexts; and, as President Kennedy said, about the fate of people during World War II, in the context of the difference between being born rich and born poor and being a soldier (who might have been born rich) sent into deathly battle vs. a soldier (who might have been born poor) assigned to spend the duration in a comfortable backwater out of harm's way: LIFE ISN'T FAIR.

concordtom;842321771 said:

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Gee. With this type of justice, a person could merely accuse another of a crime, and they'd suffer the consequences straight away.

This logic where certain people are held to a higher standard therefore flies in the face of our justice system.

#justsayin'

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True, but we're not talking about a court of law. This is an extremely valuable scholarship to one of the best academic institutions in the world. Moreover, it's a scholarship in a sport where the athletes are representatives of the university on national TV.

south bender;842321283 said:

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Apparently even the idea of it at Cal is an obscenity?

Go Bears!

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You want redemption, find religion and go to a church or something. It would be a PR disaster for the program, imo.

bluesaxe;842321782 said:

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You want redemption, find religion and go to a church or something.

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What would I do without such kind and intelligent advice?

Go Bears!

south bender;842321789 said:

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What would I do without such kind and intelligent advice?

Go Bears!

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I'm sure you would muddle on by.

You did ignore all of my substantive points, by the way.

If it was just the rape allegation I could potentially get on board with going after him, as I generally don't think it was rape at all but particularly ugly consensual sex. However, he's also got the mark for selling school gear. Two instances of really suspect choices tends to indicate this is someone who isn't worth the trouble.

CaliforniaUberAlles;842321572 said:

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In this instance, we have a detailed police report, no contravening denial and a school that did it's own inquiry and then booted the alleged perpetrators. Oh and there's that history of unprosecuted rape. So yes we do have something to go on and thankfully we didn't have to be in the bedroom to watch an alleged sexual assault. And spare me the Oregon booted them out of some bizarre political expediency. That's so blatantly made up for arguments sake I can't bother to address it.

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You are factually incorrect. The three players all denied that the sex was forced. You choose to believe her over them, as is your right, but that does not mean there wasn't a denial.

Re your comment about rape being the most underreported crime, it is also the most over reported crime.

About sixty posts ago, a few of us fans tried in vain to turn this thread away from sexual assault and selling shoes more toward a discussion of the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player. We failed miserably.

I'd like to give it another shot, so here goes: Aside from his alleged behavior, why on earth would we need or want Dominic Artis on our Cal basketball team?

Here are Artis' cumulative statistics from two years at Oregon:

Minutes per game: 20.5
Points per game: 6.4
Assists per game: 2.7
Rebounds per game: 2.0
Turnovers per game: 1.9
Steals per game: 1.3

FG%: 36%
3PT%: 33%
FT%: 68%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.4

None of these statistics are something to brag about for a guy averaging 20 minutes of play every night. The shooting percentages tell me that he doesn't shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in any either case. His free throw percentage indicates that he may not be a very good shooter, period. His assist totals are pretty weak for a point guard.

On the subjective level, I was impressed with Artis in a SF ProAm game. He came in late in the second half and took over the game, scoring about 20 points in 10-12 minutes. He is flashy, and fast, but he is a playground ballplayer with little instincts for running a team or running the point, or passing the ball, IMO. He showed that at Oregon, where he could not adjust to D1 ball. Altman didn't know what to do with him, so he replaced Artis with a journeyman type point guard in Loyd, and the offense worked better, and so did the defense, in the few Oregon games I watched on TV.

One basketball reason for taking Artis would be his high ranking as a recruit, #62 on the ESPN 100 list, and a 4 star recruit by others. Perhaps the highest rated PG in the west, except that in my opinion, he's not a PG. He is a SG in a small PG body. He was 5'-11", 165 lb as a freshman, but I see he has now blossomed into 6'-1", 186 lb. He wasn't that big the last time I saw him. He has had some good D1 games at Oregon, but has been very inconsistent. I think we would be taking a big chance signing him, in the basketball sense, because he may just be yet another highly rated recruit who has not performed well in two years at the D1 level. Maybe he would improve, and maybe he would not. I'd rather use his scholarship for a transfer with better credentials or a high school recruit who has yet to play in college. I've seen Artis, and I'm much more interested in seeing what Singer will do this year, and seeing what Chauca can do. My money is on them. At some point in a player's career, one can make a judgment whether a player has lived up to his recruit ranking. So far, Artis has not done so.

Assist/ turnover ratio is horrendous

SFCityBear;842321962 said:

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About sixty posts ago, a few of us fans tried in vain to turn this thread away from sexual assault and selling shoes more toward a discussion of the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player. We failed miserably.

I’d like to give it another shot, so here goes: Aside from his alleged behavior, why on earth would we need or want Dominic Artis on our Cal basketball team?

Here are Artis’ cumulative statistics from two years at Oregon:

Minutes per game: 20.5
Points per game: 6.4
Assists per game: 2.7
Rebounds per game: 2.0
Turnovers per game: 1.9
Steals per game: 1.3

FG%: 36%
3PT%: 33%
FT%: 68%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.4

None of these statistics are something to brag about for a guy averaging 20 minutes of play every night. The shooting percentages tell me that he doesn’t shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in any either case. His free throw percentage indicates that he may not be a very good shooter, period. His assist totals are pretty weak for a point guard.

On the subjective level, I was impressed with Artis in a SF ProAm game. He came in late in the second half and took over the game, scoring about 20 points in 10-12 minutes. He is flashy, and fast, but he is a playground ballplayer with little instincts for running a team or running the point, or passing the ball, IMO. He showed that at Oregon, where he could not adjust to D1 ball. Altman didn’t know what to do with him, so he replaced Artis with a journeyman type point guard in Loyd, and the offense worked better, and so did the defense, in the few Oregon games I watched on TV.

One basketball reason for taking Artis would be his high ranking as a recruit, #62 on the ESPN 100 list, and a 4 star recruit by others. Perhaps the highest rated PG in the west, except that in my opinion, he’s not a PG. He is a SG in a small PG body. He was 5’-11”, 165 lb as a freshman, but I see he has now blossomed into 6’-1”, 186 lb. He wasn’t that big the last time I saw him. He has had some good D1 games at Oregon, but has been very inconsistent. I think we would be taking a big chance signing him, in the basketball sense, because he may just be yet another highly rated recruit who has not performed well in two years at the D1 level. Maybe he would improve, and maybe he would not. I’d rather use his scholarship for a transfer with better credentials or a high school recruit who has yet to play in college. I’ve seen Artis, and I’m much more interested in seeing what Singer will do this year, and seeing what Chauca can do. My money is on them. At some point in a player’s career, one can make a judgment whether a player has lived up to his recruit ranking. So far, Artis has not done so.

---

For however much I disagree with you about Kreklow I agree with you about Artis. I'm not a fan of his game. He's not a good shooter or distributor. His game regressed as a soph. Pass.

SFCityBear;842321962 said:

---

About sixty posts ago, a few of us fans tried in vain to turn this thread away from sexual assault and selling shoes more toward a discussion of the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player. We failed miserably.

I’d like to give it another shot, so here goes: Aside from his alleged behavior, why on earth would we need or want Dominic Artis on our Cal basketball team?

Here are Artis’ cumulative statistics from two years at Oregon:

Minutes per game: 20.5
Points per game: 6.4
Assists per game: 2.7
Rebounds per game: 2.0
Turnovers per game: 1.9
Steals per game: 1.3

FG%: 36%
3PT%: 33%
FT%: 68%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.4

None of these statistics are something to brag about for a guy averaging 20 minutes of play every night. The shooting percentages tell me that he doesn’t shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in any either case. His free throw percentage indicates that he may not be a very good shooter, period. His assist totals are pretty weak for a point guard.

On the subjective level, I was impressed with Artis in a SF ProAm game. He came in late in the second half and took over the game, scoring about 20 points in 10-12 minutes. He is flashy, and fast, but he is a playground ballplayer with little instincts for running a team or running the point, or passing the ball, IMO. He showed that at Oregon, where he could not adjust to D1 ball. Altman didn’t know what to do with him, so he replaced Artis with a journeyman type point guard in Loyd, and the offense worked better, and so did the defense, in the few Oregon games I watched on TV.

One basketball reason for taking Artis would be his high ranking as a recruit, #62 on the ESPN 100 list, and a 4 star recruit by others. Perhaps the highest rated PG in the west, except that in my opinion, he’s not a PG. He is a SG in a small PG body. He was 5’-11”, 165 lb as a freshman, but I see he has now blossomed into 6’-1”, 186 lb. He wasn’t that big the last time I saw him. He has had some good D1 games at Oregon, but has been very inconsistent. I think we would be taking a big chance signing him, in the basketball sense, because he may just be yet another highly rated recruit who has not performed well in two years at the D1 level. Maybe he would improve, and maybe he would not. I’d rather use his scholarship for a transfer with better credentials or a high school recruit who has yet to play in college. I’ve seen Artis, and I’m much more interested in seeing what Singer will do this year, and seeing what Chauca can do. My money is on them. At some point in a player’s career, one can make a judgment whether a player has lived up to his recruit ranking. So far, Artis has not done so.

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its more because of the personnel that we have on our roster currently. at the 1 and the 2 we have:

Singer: spread the ball around, disciplined style point guard. average defensively. decent size. below average athleticism

Chauca: probably the most all around point guard that we'll have. can score, can pass, can use his quickness to get in the lane. will likely struggle defensively against bigger guards.

Mathews: decent athleticism. can score in bunches when hot. goes through lulls though. need to sit him when hes cold because he'll keep shooting

Artis: Above average athletcism. can get get into the lane. can finish around the hoop. can D it up if he puts his mind to it. not a true point guard but more of an athlete playing guard.

I'd say that we would want someone like him because he brings something different to the table than singer, chauca or mathews and gives us the option to have some athleticism out of the point guard position and can spell mathews when he goes cold. His game would give us more options.

With the controversy surrounding him, id most likely only want him if they thought he could be a star. hes likely not. hes likely a role player. in terms of our personnel though, hes the kind of role player that we sort of need though. a guard that can D it up. both our current point guards probably arent the best defensively. hes better defensively than both singer and likely chauca and hes not going to jack up shots like mathews and is the type of player where he'll allow you to let the offense flow to bird and kravish.

You're right in that his statistics dont really support him being a great college player and concerning the ethical concerns with him, probably doesnt justify taking the risk on him. but in terms with how his game would fit on our team, i think he could be a very useful role player to have. even more so though, another concern would be if he were a poor influence on others on the team. maybe he doesnt come here and get in trouble, but maybe he has a poor influence on the others and one of the other kids get in trouble as well. i dont really know him well enough to know whether he would do that or not but from an outsiders perspective, itd be a concern

gobears725;842321980 said:

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its more because of the personnel that we have on our roster currently. at the 1 and the 2 we have:

Singer: spread the ball around, disciplined style point guard. average defensively. decent size. below average athleticism

Chauca: probably the most all around point guard that we'll have. can score, can pass, can use his quickness to get in the lane. will likely struggle defensively against bigger guards.

Mathews: decent athleticism. can score in bunches when hot. goes through lulls though. need to sit him when hes cold because he'll keep shooting

Artis: Above average athletcism. can get get into the lane. can finish around the hoop. can D it up if he puts his mind to it. not a true point guard but more of an athlete playing guard.

I'd say that we would want someone like him because he brings something different to the table than singer, chauca or mathews and gives us the option to have some athleticism out of the point guard position and can spell mathews when he goes cold. His game would give us more options.

With the controversy surrounding him, id most likely only want him if they thought he could be a star. hes likely not. hes likely a role player. in terms of our personnel though, hes the kind of role player that we sort of need though. a guard that can D it up. both our current point guards probably arent the best defensively. hes better defensively than both singer and likely chauca and hes not going to jack up shots like mathews and is the type of player where he'll allow you to let the offense flow to bird and kravish.

You're right in that his statistics dont really support him being a great college player and concerning the ethical concerns with him, probably doesnt justify taking the risk on him. but in terms with how his game would fit on our team, i think he could be a very useful role player to have. even more so though, another concern would be if he were a poor influence on others on the team. maybe he doesnt come here and get in trouble, but maybe he has a poor influence on the others and one of the other kids get in trouble as well. i dont really know him well enough to know whether he would do that or not but from an outsiders perspective, itd be a concern

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I think you're forgetting about Wallace. And I think Wallace already provides a lot of what Artis might.

LOUMFSG2;842321987 said:

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I think you're forgetting about Wallace. And I think Wallace already provides a lot of what Artis might.

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im not forgetting wallace. hes not a point guard in my opinion and hes already out there guarding whoever the best perimeter player is on the other team, usually a 2 or 3. Artis would guard the opponents 1 and sometimes 2. a lot of our better opponents have more than one perimeter player that can hurt us. you wouldnt usually want Bird to be that guy because youd like to rest him to so that you could get the most of what he could offer offensively, which is his strength anyway.

Im not saying that we need or necessarily should get Artis, but i think it provides some explanation for why the staff was considering it. we could use him from a basketball standpoint, but its probably not worth it