NYCGOBEARS;842671910 said:

---

Black kids play basketball and white kids play Lacrosse and Soccer out here. Did I get that right?

---

Don't forget swimming.

BeachedBear;842671943 said:

---

Interesting topic. Two comments:

First - The expansion of the NCAA field actually helps the Power 5 conferences. When the big conferences are getting 6-10 teams in every year - (most of which are more competitive anyway) it actually makes the odds of a mid-major winning the NC less likely. Makes for great drama and narrative about upsets and runs to the sweet sixteen and final four - but NOT for the NC (which the OP is using as the metric). I'll leave out the Pac-12 outlier for now.

Second - The future of the tournament is driven by popularity and money. There is very little about making sure it is the right competitive format or taking the interests of student athletes into account. I also think that Football and Basketball are on diverging paths in many ways. Football is becoming a have vs have-not situation where many schools and conferences are not willing to support it (See many WCC schools for example). The number of programs could easily fall in to a two tier alignment with 64 Big schools and 64 smaller schools, allowing for conference-type alignments that fit nicely into geographic and tournament pods. Basketball is different in that more team are moving to D1 and the 'cinderella story' promoting the ideal of small schools competing with big schools (and many do).

When you add the differing relations with professional and international play between the two sports, it is not hard to imagine that one or both of the revenue sports will eventually break from the existing conference model anyway.

:gobears:

p.s. if the big one comes and busts Memorial stadium before it is paid off - don't be surprised to see Cal drop D1 football.

---

No way.
Witter field.

concordtom;842672000 said:

---

No way.
Witter field.

---

Oh - They'll always play Rugby!!

concordtom;842671886 said:

---

We used to

Year Winning team
1939 Oregon
1940 Indiana
1941 Wisconsin
1942 Stanford
1943 Wyoming
1944 Utah
1945 Oklahoma A&M
1946 Oklahoma A&M
1947 Holy Cross
1948 Kentucky
1949 Kentucky
1950 CCNY
1951 Kentucky
1952 Kansas
1953 Indiana
1954 La Salle
1955 San Francisco
1956 San Francisco
1957 North Carolina
1958 Kentucky
1959 California
1960 Ohio State
1961 Cincinnati
1962 Cincinnati
1963 Loyola Chicago
1964 UCLA
1965 UCLA
1966 Texas Western
1967 UCLA
1968 UCLA
1969 UCLA
1970 UCLA
1971 UCLA
1972 UCLA
1973 UCLA
1974 North Carolina State
1975 UCLA
1976 Indiana
1977 Marquette
1978 Kentucky
1979 Michigan State
1980 Louisville
1981 Indiana
1982 North Carolina
1983 North Carolina State
1984 Georgetown
1985 Villanova
1986 Louisville
1987 Indiana
1988 Kansas
1989 Michigan
1990 UNLV
1991 Duke
1992 Duke
1993 North Carolina
1994 Arkansas
1995 UCLA
1996 Kentucky
1997 Arizona
1998 Kentucky
1999 Connecticut
2000 Michigan State
2001 Duke
2002 Maryland
2003 Syracuse
2004 Connecticut
2005 North Carolina
2006 Florida
2007 Florida
2008 Kansas
2009 North Carolina
2010 Duke
2011 Connecticut
2012 Kentucky
2013 Louisville
2014 Connecticut
2015 Duke

---

I think we would be remiss if we did not include the early NIT champions in the list, because from its founding in 1938 to 1953 at least, the NIT was considered the more prestigious tournament to win. The NCAA of those years limited its selection to major conference champions and a few others, but many of the country's best teams, including independents, were not invited. They often played in the NIT instead. Many coaches in those days who wanted to prove their team was the best, sought out the best competition, and it was usually in the NIT, rather than in the NCAA. Several teams played in both championships in the same year, and CCNY won both titles in 1950. After 1950, teams were prohibited from playing in both tournaments in the same year. During WWII, the Red Cross put on a game for charity each year from 1943-1945 between the NCAA Champion and the NIT Champion to determine a true National Champion.

The first AP Poll came out in 1949, and the first coaches' poll came out in 1950. In 1949 for example, of the NCAA field of 8 teams, 6 were ranked, and the average ranking was #10. In the 1949 NIT field of 12 teams, 7 were ranked, and the average ranking was #6. Kentucky was ranked #1, and played in both tournaments, winning the NCAA Championship, but losing in their first game in the NIT. The 1949 NIT was eventually won by Pete Newell's #8 ranked USF squad.

By 1954 the NIT field continued to include many ranked teams, just not the top ranked ones.

Here are the western schools which won NIT championships prior to 1955:

1940: Colorado
1947: Utah
1948: Saint Louis
1949: San Francisco
1951: Brigham Young

concordtom;842671901 said:

---

Don't mean to be controversial, but blacks weren't integrated into basketball in 43 and 52.
(Per above: blacks are 74% of NBA despite being only 12% of the overall US population).

---

I think you are a little misinformed on this one. There were quite a number of Black players who had integrated college basketball prior to 1943. Was there full integration? No. The South, especially the SEC was segregated. They did not allow Blacks to attend their schools, and did not allow their teams to compete against teams who had Black players. In scheduling games with integrated schools, those schools were required to make a gentlemen's agreement that they would not play their Black players in these games. By 1950, most Northern schools refused to make such agreements, and games eventually gradually took place. In the late 1960s, SEC teams began to accept Black players.

The rest of the country had earlier begun to integrate, but it was gradual, over the course of many years. There were Black players like the famous Paul Robeson at Rutgers, Wilbur Wood at Nebraska, Fenwick Watkins at Vermont, and Cumberland Posey at Penn State, who became stars at white colleges prior to World War I. The great Ralph Bunche earned 3 letters as a guard on three PCC Southern Division championship UCLA basketball teams in the mid 1920s. George Gregory was an All-American center at Columbia from 1928-31. The great Jackie Robinson played for UCLA from 1939-41, and was the PCC leading scorer. Dave DeJemett played for Indiana Central and was the first Black to sign a pro contract. Don Barksdale was a Consensus All-American in 1947, and was the first African American to win the Olympic Gold medal for basketball. William Garrett was the first Black to play for Indiana, and was named All-American in 1947. By 1951, there were six Blacks playing in the Big 10. In the early 1950s, a formerly all-White school, Wayne State, started five Black players and beat NCAA and NIT Tournament teams like DePaul, Duquesne, Georgetown, Marquette, and Penn State. And so on. Not a lot of integration, but it was going on slowly prior to 1943 and 1952.

I don't know if any Black players or their teams were prevented from playing in the 1943 or 1952 NCAA tournaments, but unless you know they were prevented from doing so, I think the champions of those years should still be included in the list.

SFCityBear;842672094 said:

---

I think you are a little misinformed on this one. There were quite a number of Black players who had integrated college basketball prior to 1943. Was there full integration? No. The South, especially the SEC was segregated. They did not allow Blacks to attend their schools, and did not allow their teams to compete against teams who had Black players. In scheduling games with integrated schools, those schools were required to make a gentlemen's agreement that they would not play their Black players in these games. By 1950, most Northern schools refused to make such agreements, and games eventually gradually took place. In the late 1960s, SEC teams began to accept Black players.

The rest of the country had earlier begun to integrate, but it was gradual, over the course of many years. There were Black players like the famous Paul Robeson at Rutgers, Wilbur Wood at Nebraska, Fenwick Watkins at Vermont, and Cumberland Posey at Penn State, who became stars at white colleges prior to World War I. The great Ralph Bunche earned 3 letters as a guard on three PCC Southern Division championship UCLA basketball teams in the mid 1920s. George Gregory was an All-American center at Columbia from 1928-31. The great Jackie Robinson played for UCLA from 1939-41, and was the PCC leading scorer. Dave DeJemett played for Indiana Central and was the first Black to sign a pro contract. Don Barksdale was a Consensus All-American in 1947, and was the first African American to win the Olympic Gold medal for basketball. William Garrett was the first Black to play for Indiana, and was named All-American in 1947. By 1951, there were six Blacks playing in the Big 10. In the early 1950s, a formerly all-White school, Wayne State, started five Black players and beat NCAA and NIT Tournament teams like DePaul, Duquesne, Georgetown, Marquette, and Penn State. And so on. Not a lot of integration, but it was going on slowly prior to 1943 and 1952.

I don't know if any Black players or their teams were prevented from playing in the 1943 or 1952 NCAA tournaments, but unless you know they were prevented from doing so, I think the champions of those years should still be included in the list.

---

Thx
I love history and those who can share it first hand.
I really don't/can't know much about pre-integration. Too young.
During the era where a few teams had a few blacks, however, I don't think that is equivalent to the current scene with full opportunity for any and all of the best players to rise to the top.

Jeff82;842671893 said:

---

Of the four schools left, three are clearly "basketball schools." Villanova doesn't even play Division I football, at North Carolina, football is an afterthought, and Syracuse hasn't been relevant in football since the Jim Brown-Ernie Nevers era. Only Oklahoma is a sometime football power. There's just a lot more emphasis on basketball in the eastern part of the country. Part of it probably has to do with the weather, and the need for both athletes and fans to have some outlet when there's eight feet of snow on the ground. The level of interest in high school ball, and then college ball, seems to me to be much greater back there.

---

Bingo!

So my OP point seems even more true now. Can anyone picture a Pac-12 team beating UNC, 'Nova, or even Syracuse in the Final Four anytime in the foreseeable future? The Eastern time zone in college BB is looking a lot like the SEC in college FB, at least from my seat on the couch.

The cheaters should not even be in the final 4.

Another factor here is Catholic school basketball- Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, St Johns, St Joe's, Providence, Marquette, Notre Dame, Creighton. All Midwest and eastern schools. Contrast that with the West Coast- Gonzaga, USF, Santa Clara, St Mary's, Loyola Marymount. The west coast teams used to be competitive nationally- look at USF- but less are now

510Bear;842673407 said:

---

So my OP point seems even more true now. Can anyone picture a Pac-12 team beating UNC, 'Nova, or even Syracuse in the Final Four anytime in the foreseeable future? The Eastern time zone in college BB is looking a lot like the SEC in college FB, at least from my seat on the couch.

---

I think it's possible. First, we have to try to keep the best California players in state, and then look for national recruits to supplement, who are interested in better weather, and our educational experience. That can counteract the lower visibility of basketball out here. You have to find players whose be-all, end-all is not ending up in the highlights on Sports Center, because time zone issues are probably always going to result in more visibility for East Coast teams.