I'm posting this highlight video primarily for Concord Tom, who once said that he had wished he had seen Elgin Baylor play basketball, but hopefully others might enjoy it as well. I was fortunate to have seen Baylor play twice, once in the 1958 NCAA Regional Final where Seattle beat Cal, and again when the Warriors played the Lakers, and Elgin scored 60 points and Chamberlain scored 75. For Elgin, every game was a highlight reel.

When the Lakers came west, they became my favorite NBA team growing up in Northern California. I used to play imaginery games with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West representing the Lakers vs the Warriors. My favorite number was #22 and I believe that came from Elgin Baylor and Will Clark...Thank you for linking the video!

The play at about 2:20 where he rebounded, pivoted and threw a full court assist occurred in the '58 regional played in Berkeley. It was one of the greatest basketball plays I ever witnessed.

that was absolutely unbelievable

Thanks SFCity.
I enjoyed watching that.
I think I will do so again to let it sink in more.

At first blush, I wasn't as impressed as I think I might have been.
Granted, there are lots of valid reasons why:
1) quality of video - tough to see
2) no appreciation for "the moment" or flow of game in those clips.
3) no idea for how "money" his attempts were b/c I was only seeing the "makes".

Many shots made might appear no different than what we might see on any one night on Sportscenter - modern technology comparison is really an unfair compare - and it makes me wonder, "Could any number of current players go back in time 50 years and put up similar numbers?" I'll keep watching and keep it in mind.

This does nothing to diminish my appreciation of him, I should say. His accomplishments, his stats, his superiority over his peers remains intact! Sometimes, seeing things live and in person is the only way to fly!

It was very thoughtful of you.
Thank you.

concordtom;842707494 said:

---

Thanks SFCity.
I enjoyed watching that.
I think I will do so again to let it sink in more.

At first blush, I wasn't as impressed as I think I might have been.
Granted, there are lots of valid reasons why:
1) quality of video - tough to see
2) no appreciation for "the moment" or flow of game in those clips.
3) no idea for how "money" his attempts were b/c I was only seeing the "makes".

Many shots made might appear no different than what we might see on any one night on Sportscenter - modern technology comparison is really an unfair compare - and it makes me wonder, "Could any number of current players go back in time 50 years and put up similar numbers?" I'll keep watching and keep it in mind.

This does nothing to diminish my appreciation of him, I should say. His accomplishments, his stats, his superiority over his peers remains intact! Sometimes, seeing things live and in person is the only way to fly!

It was very thoughtful of you.
Thank you.

---

Thanks to SF for posting. I didn't watch the whole thing yet, but watched enough to get a good idea of his game. It is always hard to compare across eras and clearly (well for me, I won't speak for SF) he put up numbers against defenses that were not close to today's. However, I felt that he displayed spectacular skills in areas that would make him an All Star today. Ball handling very good. Great coordination and control. But I think for me the ability to shoot and pass with great accuracy from awkward positions and different release points and the ability to adjust his shot after going up and still score. He also has great hands. I think the relevant question isn't whether guys today can go back and match his numbers (they can). It is whether he can come forward to today's game, and I believe he could. Guys today have gotten to play against the absolute top of the game with top training and coaching that is far more pervasive today than when he played. I think he could compare favorably today as is, but with the advantages of being raised in the modern game, I have no doubt he'd be among the top.

He's definitely one from his era who, IMO, could be a big star in the modern game although he'd probably be a SG rather than a SF. During warm-ups for one of those 1958 regional games he put on a shooting display that had the other team standing and watching by the end. He started in 1 corner and worked his way in an arc around to the other corner (rather like the 3 pt contests of today) varying the arc of the shots, some on a line, some floaters and rarely missing. Although he was a fabulous driver and scored a lot at or near the rim, he could also shoot from the perimeter.

it is definitely true that you can't compare eras, and it is also true that defenses are tougher today, if for no other reason than teams are taller. Baylor at 6-5 was as forward; today he'd be a guard. On the other hand, when he scored 60+ in a game (as when Wilt scored 75 or more), THERE WAS NO 3-POINT SHOT; they had to do it 2-points at a time.

I wonder if part of the reason Elgin is underappreciated today doesn't have to do with his awful tenure as the Clippers' GM--which is how most youngsters know of him.

concordtom;842707494 said:

---

Thanks SFCity.
I enjoyed watching that.
I think I will do so again to let it sink in more.

At first blush, I wasn't as impressed as I think I might have been.
Granted, there are lots of valid reasons why:
1) quality of video - tough to see
2) no appreciation for "the moment" or flow of game in those clips.
3) no idea for how "money" his attempts were b/c I was only seeing the "makes".

Many shots made might appear no different than what we might see on any one night on Sportscenter - modern technology comparison is really an unfair compare - and it makes me wonder, "Could any number of current players go back in time 50 years and put up similar numbers?" I'll keep watching and keep it in mind.

This does nothing to diminish my appreciation of him, I should say. His accomplishments, his stats, his superiority over his peers remains intact! Sometimes, seeing things live and in person is the only way to fly!

It was very thoughtful of you.
Thank you.

---

I'm glad you enjoyed the video of Elgin Baylor. I think I was in my last year in high school when I saw the game at the Cow Palace where Elgin scored 60 points and Chamberlain scored 75. It was a game which the NBA scheduled to test the Bay Area market to see how much interest there might be in expanding and bringing a team out here. At the time, the Warriors were still based in Philly and the Lakers were based in Minneapolis, so it was the first professional game I and many Bay Area fans had ever seen in person.

I remember being surprised and disappointed in the lack of defense on both sides, as compared to watching Bay Area college basketball, with Cal and the Dons being the best defensive teams in the NCAA in those years. I remember being impressed with Chamberlain making a number of what would have been three-pointers from one spot on the floor, and making them all off the glass.

But what impressed me the most was one play by Elgin Baylor: He made a jump shot from the corner, from three point range, and then seemed to start down the floor. As he did, he made that little head twitch which he often did, and all in one motion, he stopped, turned, picked off the inbounds pass, and knocked down another jumper from almost the same exact spot he had made the first jump shot, only a second or so earlier. Today, that would have been a 6-point play.

UrsaMajor;842707894 said:

---

it is definitely true that you can't compare eras, and it is also true that defenses are tougher today, if for no other reason than teams are taller. Baylor at 6-5 was as forward; today he'd be a guard. On the other hand, when he scored 60+ in a game (as when Wilt scored 75 or more), THERE WAS NO 3-POINT SHOT; they had to do it 2-points at a time.

I wonder if part of the reason Elgin is underappreciated today doesn't have to do with his awful tenure as the Clippers' GM--which is how most youngsters know of him.

---

While it may be true that Baylor would be a shooting guard if he were to play today, I don’t think his skills would be best utilized at that position. He was the best rebounder for his size in the game when he played. In his best year, he averaged 20 rebounds per game, placing him 4th behind Wilt Chamberlain at 27 RPG, Bill Russell at 24, and Bob Pettit at 20+. Baylor averaged 13.5 RPG for his career.

Today, Andre Drummond leads the NBA with 14.8 rebounds, about half of Wilt’s average per game. The 26 best rebounders today are all centers and power forwards. The best small forward rebounder is Kevin Durant, ranked #27 at 8.2 RPG. The best shooting guard rebounder is James Harden, ranked #73 at 6.1 RPG. In fact there are only two shooting guards among the top 100 rebounders, Harden and Jimmy Butler, ranked #96. There are 4 point guards, led by Westbrook at #34 among the top 100 rebounders. I just don’t think teams would take a rebounder and an inside scorer like Baylor and move him to the perimeter at a guard position.

I would also caution you not to pigeonhole players based on height. While it is true that players are taller today than when Baylor played, it is not by much. The average height of an NBA player during Baylor’s career was about 6’-5”. After Baylor retired in 1972, the average height of an NBA player increased steadily to a high of nearly 6’-8” in 1986. From there it dropped to 6’-6” in 1990, and increased back up to 6’-8” in 2001. One interesting thing I found was the average height then began a decrease down to where it is today to below 6’-7”, and in 2010 it had actually dropped all the way to just below 6’-6”, about the same as it was during Baylor’s long career from 1958-1972.



I’m not saying Baylor could play today, but Charles Barkley played power forward and small forward, and he was only 6’-6” tall. And just down the freeway from Haas Pavilion and Berkeley is an arena where you can see the Warriors play today, with 6’-7” Draymond Green playing power forward, small forward, and a whole lot of time playing center. Height is important, but it doesn’t preclude great players from playing great basketball just because they are small for their position. I just feel that Baylor would play inside, just like the undersized Green does.

I agree with you on the underappreciation, much of which might be due to his unsuccessful career as a GM, as you said.

damn. with rebound totals like that, what were shooting percentages back then???

Honestly, from some of the old tapes that have been posted recently, it appears that folks were truly brick-layers back then. Poor shooting motions, fundamentals.
It fits, though. I mean, I recall hearing about that Stanford kid perhaps only 20 years before who "invented" the overhead jump shot release. Right? Now we've had 70 years of understand (watching, learning, perfecting) mechanics. It becomes more engrained...

And another thing, I sure did see a lot of right-dominant dribbling going on.
Bob Cousy, in that one tape, looked like a weak ball handler! And yet people still say he's one of the all time best PG's ever. He might make it at Mt. St Mary's with Jim Phelan (my JC coach suggested I could get a look from his friend there - I declined... knew I wasn't close enough to make it and that I needed to focus on academic for once - about time)

SFCityBear;842707953 said:

---

I’m glad you enjoyed the video of Elgin Baylor. I think I was in my last year in high school when I saw the game at the Cow Palace where Elgin scored 60 points and Chamberlain scored 75. It was a game which the NBA scheduled to test the Bay Area market to see how much interest there might be in expanding and bringing a team out here. At the time, the Warriors were still based in Philly and the Lakers were based in Minneapolis, so it was the first professional game I and many Bay Area fans had ever seen in person.

I remember being surprised and disappointed in the lack of defense on both sides, as compared to watching Bay Area college basketball, with Cal and the Dons being the best defensive teams in the NCAA in those years. I remember being impressed with Chamberlain making a number of what would have been three-pointers from one spot on the floor, and making them all off the glass.

But what impressed me the most was one play by Elgin Baylor: He made a jump shot from the corner, from three point range, and then seemed to start down the floor. As he did, he made that little head twitch which he often did, and all in one motion, he stopped, turned, picked off the inbounds pass, and knocked down another jumper from almost the same exact spot he had made the first jump shot, only a second or so earlier. Today, that would have been a 6-point play.

---

That's like an exhibition just to sell tickets and get folks excited. Imagine if the aim of the business model was to do just that. And yet we consider it as competitive a matchup as any modern day NBA match up.
Probably not.

That's not to say they weren't great players. Just that 60 and 75 is truly absurd. And placing it in the "business expansion exhibition" model explains why.

concordtom;842707991 said:

---

damn. with rebound totals like that, what were shooting percentages back then???

Honestly, from some of the old tapes that have been posted recently, it appears that folks were truly brick-layers back then. Poor shooting motions, fundamentals.
It fits, though. I mean, I recall hearing about that Stanford kid perhaps only 20 years before who "invented" the overhead jump shot release. Right? Now we've had 70 years of understand (watching, learning, perfecting) mechanics. It becomes more engrained...

---

Hank Luisetti

Thanks so much for posting this. Having seen him play in the 60's I feel I felt he was one of a very few players with a sense of play that kept you riveted and yet he was a great player among many of that particular era. The league logo was another such player and I daresay was feared more at the end of tight games than Baylor was.

I think Baylor made one comment that is an interesting reflection of a difference in eras. Something along the lines of "I was lucky that most of my coaches growing up let me play my style and allow me to do some of the flashy things that most coaches didn't allow". Perhaps the biggest difference in eras (which may be more relevant than other arguments) is the relationship between player and coach (and ownership in the NBA). We've touched on the impact of youth development and its focus on athleticism and a different core of 'fundamentals', but not on the relationship.

My experience/recollection is that in almost every aspect of the game and player development, the player has much more freedom, input and respect than in the past era. I have many anecdotal examples to reflect the opposite, but overall the needle has really moved from the coach to the player.

:beer:

I have often posited that modern shooters are much better than when I was in college (mid '50s) but SFCityBear has posted some stats (from the UK website I believe) that show shooting percentages are much closer than I would have expected, even accounting for the 3 point shot. You would think that better coaching, specialization and virtual year round honing of skills would have to have had a positive effect but, perhaps, there are offsetting factors (better defense?, the shot clock) that are hard to quantify. Basketball-reference.com has NBA stats going back to the eras we're talking about and a companion college site has college stats of more recent vintage. In my cursory review, it appears the best shooters of any period are pretty close. Early marksmen like Paul Arizin, Bill Sharman and Baylor were in the 42-43% range followed by Rick Barry (45%), Calvin Murphy (48%), Paul Westphal (50%), Ray Allen (45%) and Larry Bird (50%). Most (Baylor and Arizin excepted) of these guys shot free throws @88-90%.

concordtom;842707991 said:

---

damn. with rebound totals like that, what were shooting percentages back then???

Honestly, from some of the old tapes that have been posted recently, it appears that folks were truly brick-layers back then. Poor shooting motions, fundamentals.
It fits, though. I mean, I recall hearing about that Stanford kid perhaps only 20 years before who "invented" the overhead jump shot release. Right? Now we've had 70 years of understand (watching, learning, perfecting) mechanics. It becomes more engrained...

---

I assume you were referring to Stanford great, Hank Luisetti. Here is what I was able to remember or dig up on the jump shot:

Hank Luisetti never had a jump shot. He invented the running one-hand shot in about 1931, a shot which he launched from his ear. He shot them all from close in, as he hung in the air. It revolutionized the game at the time. Gradually, the one-hand push shot from the ear was developed by others, and became very popular from mid range, but that was a type of set shot.

The two-hand jump shot with the ball released above the head was probably first used by John Cooper at the University of Missouri in a game in 1932. Here is an article on the first jump shot:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/sports/ncaabasketball/03jumper.html?_r=0

Kenny Sailors invented the classic modern one-hand jump shot at the age of 13, in 1934. He would go on to make the shot popular at the University of Wyoming, leading the Cowboys to the NCAA title in 1943, where he was tournament's Most Outstanding Player, and he was named consensus All-American. He played 2 years in the AAU and 6 years in the NBA. His jump shot changed the game forever.

Here is a photo of Sailors shooting a jumper:

http://kennysailorsjumpshot.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=196&Itemid=27

Here is an article on Kenny Sailors:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/kenny-sailors-forgotten-star-credited-with-inventing-basketballs-jump-shot/2016/01/30/714494dc-c798-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html

Along the way, there were other jump shots. In the early to mid 1950's, many players used a jump shot where they cocked and released the ball from behind their head. When I first saw future St Marys All-American and Warrior star, Tom Meschery, play as a junior in high school, he used that shot, and it was unblockable. As a senior, he began changing to another jump shot, one where he held his arms straight up, and the ball far above his head, and with little or no cock at all, releasing the ball at the top of his jump, with just the strength in his fingers, hand, and wrist. He would continue to use that jumper the rest of his career in college and the NBA.