Wouldnt be Rick Barry,would it?

where is this thread coming from??

The rabbit hole that is the monster thread. You should read it sometime.

parentswerebears;842785392 said:

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The rabbit hole that is the monster thread. You should read it sometime.

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Oh, no.
Don't direct me back there.
I'm on a diet.

Please fire said shooting coach!
Singer has completely lost it. Those were two of the very worst 3's I think he's ever attempted.
I'm very sorry, Sam. And South Bender.
I feel for him for this, though I commend him for continuing to play hard and otherwise show solid play in all other aspects of the game. Often times, guys go into the tanker in ALL aspects.

Sam has one of the highest 3 % on the tesm

Singer's at .308, had to look it up.
8 of 26.

#1 is Ivan Rabb at .571,
4 of 7.

Nick Hamilton is 50%, 1 of 2
Mullins is 44.4%, 28 of 63
Moore is 40.8%, 29 of 71
Bird is 30.9%, 21 of 68
Coleman is 30%, 3 of 10

Wow. Think about that. Bird is shooting the 3 at the exact same rate as Singer (and Coleman). That speaks to both Singer and Bird. Coleman, too small a sample size, just getting started.

Moute is 24.1%, 7 of 29
Domingo is 15.6%, 5 of 32

oskidunker;842789428 said:

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Sam has one of the highest 3 % on the tesm

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Technically, he has one of the lowest.
5 guys have better %'s than him.
He's better than only 3.

Okay, sorry, Welle and Davis are both 0-1, so he's right in the middle of the pack.
But, still, I get your point. 30.8% is not abysmal, and is right next to Bird.
My point was that he passes up on 3's regularly, (keeps winging it around the horn, even if the guy is passes to more more closely guarded than him) and the last 2 he attempted vs USC were God awful. The release and motion were entirely new, unrecognizable, and way off the mark. Thus, harkening back to this thread, what the heck is going on?

If he is trying to re-jigger his shot in midseason, perhaps this is the unintended consequence. Seems like the worst possible time to do this. Is this on the coaching staff.?

33% on threes = 50% on twos
Singer should shoot wide open threes (he mostly does)
He should not shoot contested threes

Bird is probably 40% on open threes, but he shoots tougher threes (not wide open or on curls, etc)

Bird's shooting > Singer

HoopDreams;842789887 said:

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33% on threes = 50% on twos
Singer should shoot wide open threes (he mostly does)
He should not shoot contested threes

Bird is probably 40% on open threes, but he shoots tougher threes (not wide open or on curls, etc)

Bird's shooting > Singer

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Did you see his wide open three against SC? Not even close. Mental problem, like Domingo who makes 70% in warm-ups.

oobay;842790732 said:

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Did you see his wide open three against SC? Not even close. Mental problem, like Domingo who makes 70% in warm-ups.

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If I did not already have them, these guys would turn my hair gray...

However, I will never stop pulling for both.

Go Bears!

concordtom;842789432 said:

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Singer's at .308, had to look it up.
8 of 26.

#1 is Ivan Rabb at .571,
4 of 7.

Nick Hamilton is 50%, 1 of 2
Mullins is 44.4%, 28 of 63
Moore is 40.8%, 29 of 71
Bird is 30.9%, 21 of 68
Coleman is 30%, 3 of 10

Wow. Think about that. Bird is shooting the 3 at the exact same rate as Singer (and Coleman). That speaks to both Singer and Bird. Coleman, too small a sample size, just getting started.

Moute is 24.1%, 7 of 29
Domingo is 15.6%, 5 of 32

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Bird has seemingly fallen in love with taking long threes.

89Bear;842790877 said:

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Bird has seemingly fallen in love with taking long threes.

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I tend to have the same feeling when he launches those (especially against some opposition); but I think it is true that they were crucial in beating SC, not only that he made them, but when he made them, as everybody else on the team was struggling, and SC was meeting every effort on our part - keeping us at Bay -- Then a couple of Bird's long threes with us 3 (and maybe, at one point, 6) points behind, stopped making it seem like we were doomed.

Bird can shoot on the move. No one else can except maybe Chauca and he is injured.

oskidunker;842790956 said:

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Bird can shoot on the move. No one else can except maybe Chauca and he is injured.

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I would put Charlie in that category. He's been going through a rough stretch, as defenses have adjusted to him. I feel like he's on the brink of a re-breakout game (one can hope, anyway)

Except for the unexcusable turnover in the final 30 seconds, I though Charlie had a breakout game against SC.

tthompson993;842791164 said:

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Except for the unexcusable turnover in the final 30 seconds, I though Charlie had a breakout game against SC.

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Yeah, that's a good point. I actually thought about amending my post after I wrote it, because he did have a real nice game except for the TO's. Finished well and shot well from distance (3-4 on both 2's and 3's). I love to get to games early and watch our guys in warmups, and Charlie is special.

Now that our team is more or less healthy, I don't think we'll see 38 from him again, because we won't need him to do that. But I do think he has some bigger scoring games ahead of him.

LOUMFSG2;842790967 said:

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I would put Charlie in that category. He's been going through a rough stretch, as defenses have adjusted to him. I feel like he's on the brink of a re-breakout game (one can hope, anyway)

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Agree, and would suggest that he is better on the move than Jabari. The 8" that Jabari has on him, however, is not insignificant, but Charlie's handle and lateral moves are better than Jabari's.

LOUMFSG2;842791256 said:

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Yeah, that's a good point. I actually thought about amending my post after I wrote it, because he did have a real nice game except for the TO's. Finished well and shot well from distance (3-4 on both 2's and 3's). I love to get to games early and watch our guys in warmups, and Charlie is special.

Now that our team is more or less healthy, I don't think we'll see 38 from him again, because we won't need him to do that. But I do think he has some bigger scoring games ahead of him.

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I agree with your conclusions on Moore, but my memory of Charlie's play in the USC game is different. He had a poor first half on both offense and defense, and played much better in the second half. In the first half, Charlie played the first 5:35 minutes, missed a layup, and did nothing else. For the entire first half, Charlie was 1-2 on layups, missed his only 3-point shot attempt, scoring a total of just 2 points. He had one assist, one steal, had the ball stolen from him by Melton, and compounded that by fouling Melton, as I remember. He fouled Melton one other time. Defensively, I don't remember which USC guard Charlie was usually trying to guard, but in the first half, McLaughlin scored 13 points (3-4 on layups, 2-4 on threes, 1-2 on FTs) and had a rebound and a turnover. In the first half, the other guard, Melton scored 4 points (1-1 on a jumper, 0-1 on threes, 2-3 on FTs), and also had 4 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 shot blocks, and a turnover. Since Mullins was guarding Stewart, I'd say the Cal guards, including Moore were not stopping either McLaughlin or Melton.

Charlie, to his credit, had a very good second half. His only big mistake was the aforementioned turnover. Charlie made a freshman mistake with Cal up one point with 24 seconds on the clock, by attempting a long dangerous pass up the court and cross court, which Elijah Stewart made a great play to intercept. Charlie could have ended up the goat, but Cal persevered. Charlie should have been protecting the ball, using up clock, instead of gambling. He scored 14 points in the 2nd half, but had only 2 assists. You need your point guard to be capable of 6-8 assists every game.

Moore is a freshman. He is not yet consistent, against both good teams and lesser ones, and not often consistent in both halves of a game. He still tries to do too much with the ball, and puts up too many wild shots. Ty Wallace did that as a freshman, but played more and more under control with each season. Moore will get better at that. I could be wrong about this, but I do not remember Moore ever shooting a layup from the left side with his left hand. He shoots all left side layups with his right hand which is too easy to block by a defender, and he has had several of them blocked or tipped this season. He needs to learn to shoot layups with either hand. That is fundamental in basketball.

Defense is what concerns me most about Moore. Either his teammates are not communicating with him, or he is not anticipating screens or his man's moves, but right now, he is not stopping anyone. His first half was a learning experience, and his second half showed that he learned well. He is so talented that Martin has to play him a lot of minutes. Hopefully his decisions and consistency will improve over time.

SFCityBear;842791581 said:

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I agree with your conclusions on Moore, but my memory of Charlie’s play in the USC game is different. He had a poor first half on both offense and defense, and played much better in the second half. In the first half, Charlie played the first 5:35 minutes, missed a layup, and did nothing else. For the entire first half, Charlie was 1-2 on layups, missed his only 3-point shot attempt, scoring a total of just 2 points. He had one assist, one steal, had the ball stolen from him by Melton, and compounded that by fouling Melton, as I remember. He fouled Melton one other time. Defensively, I don’t remember which USC guard Charlie was usually trying to guard, but in the first half, McLaughlin scored 13 points (3-4 on layups, 2-4 on threes, 1-2 on FTs) and had a rebound and a turnover. In the first half, the other guard, Melton scored 4 points (1-1 on a jumper, 0-1 on threes, 2-3 on FTs), and also had 4 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 shot blocks, and a turnover. Since Mullins was guarding Stewart, I’d say the Cal guards, including Moore were not stopping either McLaughlin or Melton.

Charlie, to his credit, had a very good second half. His only big mistake was the aforementioned turnover. Charlie made a freshman mistake with Cal up one point with 24 seconds on the clock, by attempting a long dangerous pass up the court and cross court, which Elijah Stewart made a great play to intercept. Charlie could have ended up the goat, but Cal persevered. Charlie should have been protecting the ball, using up clock, instead of gambling. He scored 14 points in the 2nd half, but had only 2 assists. You need your point guard to be capable of 6-8 assists every game.

Moore is a freshman. He is not yet consistent, against both good teams and lesser ones, and not often consistent in both halves of a game. He still tries to do too much with the ball, and puts up too many wild shots. Ty Wallace did that as a freshman, but played more and more under control with each season. Moore will get better at that. I could be wrong about this, but [U]I do not remember Moore ever shooting a layup from the left side with his left hand. He shoots all left side layups with his right hand which is too easy to block by a defender, and he has had several of them blocked or tipped this season. He needs to learn to shoot layups with either hand. That is fundamental in basketball.[/U]

Defense is what concerns me most about Moore. Either his teammates are not communicating with him, or he is not anticipating screens or his man’s moves, but right now, he is not stopping anyone. His first half was a learning experience, and his second half showed that he learned well. He is so talented that Martin has to play him a lot of minutes. Hopefully his decisions and consistency will improve over time.

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I once heard Tom Tolbert admit that he never developed the ability to use his left hand for left-sided layups. He was pretty sheepish about it and said that Nellie never ceased to dog him about it, and yet he did have a seven year NBA career. It made me feel a little better about never developing that basic fundamental myself.

MSaviolives;842791613 said:

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I once heard Tom Tolbert admit that he never developed the ability to use his left hand for left-sided layups. He was pretty sheepish about it and said that Nellie never ceased to dog him about it, and yet he did have a seven year NBA career. It made me feel a little better about never developing that basic fundamental myself.

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Ha ha
Still working to improve mine!

MSaviolives;842791613 said:

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I once heard Tom Tolbert admit that he never developed the ability to use his left hand for left-sided layups. He was pretty sheepish about it and said that Nellie never ceased to dog him about it, and yet he did have a seven year NBA career. It made me feel a little better about never developing that basic fundamental myself.

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Most players don't like to learn to shoot layups with the left hand. Most players don't like to learn to play defense. Fundamentals are part of making yourself into a complete player. If you watched the telecast, at one point, the analyst Casey Jacobson praised Fultz for making one of his layups from the left side with his off hand, the right hand. He said that defenders will study their opponent, and if he usually shoots those layups with his left hand, they will then overplay or try to get in position to block the shot by anticipating he will shoot the layup with his left hand. So Jacobsen praised Fultz for mixing it up, and occasionally shooting the shot with the right hand, because the defender will be thinking only to defend a left handed shot, and he won't be able to react to that shot quickly enough to block it. The opposite is true for Moore. If he shoots all those layups with the right hand, and never uses his left, then defenders will anticipate what is coming and they will block those shots, which is what they are doing.

Most players are right handed and when they first get some serious coaching, they will be taught to shoot the left side layups with the left hand. For me, it was as a freshman in high school. We drilled on it in every practice, and the ones who could not do it, were sent out of the gym to run laps around the schoolyard. Times are different now, and there is probably less teaching, less discipline, and fewer players learning these fundamentals.

Nevertheless, if Tom Tolbert says it is OK not to learn how to shoot with the left, then it must be OK. Yes, he played on NBA teams for 7 seasons, and he talks a good game. Out of the 7 seasons, Tolbert had only one where he was a major contributor, 1993 with Orlando, which finished 41-41, and where he started 61 games and played an average of 25 minutes. He had two seasons with the Warriors where he did OK, but for most of his career, he was a bench player, and started once in a while for 5 teams in 7 years. My impression of Tolbert was that he never seemed to work harder to get any better at any part of his game, and he did not get any better in those 7 years, IMO. I don't think Tolbert had much drive to get any better. I think Charlie Moore is the opposite. I think he has a lot of drive, and has had to, in order to get into the PAC12. I'd bet he wants to play at the next level, and if the coaches tell Charlie he needs to learn to shoot with his left to become a better player, Charlie will likely work on it to learn it.

Work on the FT's, Sam.

SFCityBear;842792679 said:

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Most players don’t like to learn to shoot layups with the left hand. Most players don’t like to learn to play defense. Fundamentals are part of making yourself into a complete player. If you watched the telecast, at one point, the analyst Casey Jacobson praised Fultz for making one of his layups from the left side with his off hand, the right hand. He said that defenders will study their opponent, and if he usually shoots those layups with his left hand, they will then overplay or try to get in position to block the shot by anticipating he will shoot the layup with his left hand. So Jacobsen praised Fultz for mixing it up, and occasionally shooting the shot with the right hand, because the defender will be thinking only to defend a left handed shot, and he won’t be able to react to that shot quickly enough to block it. The opposite is true for Moore. If he shoots all those layups with the right hand, and never uses his left, then defenders will anticipate what is coming and they will block those shots, which is what they are doing.

Most players are right handed and when they first get some serious coaching, they will be taught to shoot the left side layups with the left hand. For me, it was as a freshman in high school. We drilled on it in every practice, and the ones who could not do it, were sent out of the gym to run laps around the schoolyard. Times are different now, and there is probably less teaching, less discipline, and fewer players learning these fundamentals.

Nevertheless, if Tom Tolbert says it is OK not to learn how to shoot with the left, then it must be OK. Yes, he played on NBA teams for 7 seasons, and he talks a good game. Out of the 7 seasons, Tolbert had only one where he was a major contributor, 1993 with Orlando, which finished 41-41, and where he started 61 games and played an average of 25 minutes. He had two seasons with the Warriors where he did OK, but for most of his career, he was a bench player, and started once in a while for 5 teams in 7 years. My impression of Tolbert was that he never seemed to work harder to get any better at any part of his game, and he did not get any better in those 7 years, IMO. I don’t think Tolbert had much drive to get any better. I think Charlie Moore is the opposite. I think he has a lot of drive, and has had to, in order to get into the PAC12. I’d bet he wants to play at the next level, and if the coaches tell Charlie he needs to learn to shoot with his left to become a better player, Charlie will likely work on it to learn it.

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If I am not mistaken, Charlie's first basket last night was a drive from slightly to the right over to the left side of the basket, where he shot with his left hand. Moreover, my bad memory tells me that i have seen him shoot with his left several times this year.

south bender;842792767 said:

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If I am not mistaken, Charlie's first basket last night was a drive from slightly to the right over to the left side of the basket, where he shot with his left hand. Moreover, my bad memory tells me that i have seen him shoot with his left several times this year.

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Your memory is just fine. That sweet lob to Rabb was also left handed.

Civil Bear;842792789 said:

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Your memory is just fine. That sweet lob to Rabb was also left handed.

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Thanks, CB. Kind of you! (I hope you do not take this as an insult...)

Charlie's problem is not his lack of ambidexterity, but his inexperience in what, at his height, he can do to confound defenders who tower above him. He might want to watch tape of Parker of the Spurs, where he scores (or has scored, in years earlier) among the NBA trees.

Go Bears!

good post, SFCity. I certainly agree about Tolbert, a journeyman at best. I also agree about the need for ambidexterity in shooting (would anyone accept "I only dribble with my right hand" from a player???). However, I'd just add that it is more difficult for some to learn that than others, because handedness is not simply either-or, there are degrees, and some who have a very pronounced dominant hand (has to do with brain function) will have a harder time learning any skill with the off hand. Doesn't mean it can't be done; just means that it will be more difficult. Rabb, for instance, appears to be nearly ambidextrous, and he uses both hands naturally. Others may have much more difficulty learning that skill.

south bender;842792767 said:

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If I am not mistaken, Charlie's first basket last night was a drive from slightly to the right over to the left side of the basket, where he shot with his left hand. Moreover, my bad memory tells me that i have seen him shoot with his left several times this year.

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Like I originally wrote in this thread, "I could be wrong about this,...". And I hope I am wrong about it. Still, he has had a number of layups blocked, all when shooting with the right hand driving from the left. That much I am sure of. I picked this up watching an early game, and I usually look for it, to see if it is true. I could certainly have missed seeing some of Charlie's layups, either in person or on TV. He has certainly scored some of those left side layups with his right hand. There is nothing wrong with using the right hand, if there is no threat from a defender, because it may be the quickest route to the hoop. With a defender in the way, it becomes more problematic to use the right hand to shoot, unless he is overplaying your left hand, IMHO.

I don't like to harp on it, because it is a small point in a player's overall game. Still, most of Cal's games against good opponents go to the wire, and one blocked layup can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

UrsaMajor;842792821 said:

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good post, SFCity. I certainly agree about Tolbert, a journeyman at best. I also agree about the need for ambidexterity in shooting (would anyone accept "I only dribble with my right hand" from a player???). However, I'd just add that it is more difficult for some to learn that than others, because handedness is not simply either-or, there are degrees, and some who have a very pronounced dominant hand (has to do with brain function) will have a harder time learning any skill with the off hand. Doesn't mean it can't be done; just means that it will be more difficult. Rabb, for instance, appears to be nearly ambidextrous, and he uses both hands naturally. Others may have much more difficulty learning that skill.

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+1. Allen Crabbe was a player who when he arrived at Cal couldn't finish a layup with either hand, and not only did he learn to finish them, but he developed a couple of shots with his left hand to shoot in the lane.

SFCityBear;842792679 said:

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Most players don’t like to learn to shoot layups with the left hand. Most players don’t like to learn to play defense. Fundamentals are part of making yourself into a complete player. If you watched the telecast, at one point, the analyst Casey Jacobson praised Fultz for making one of his layups from the left side with his off hand, the right hand. He said that defenders will study their opponent, and if he usually shoots those layups with his left hand, they will then overplay or try to get in position to block the shot by anticipating he will shoot the layup with his left hand. So Jacobsen praised Fultz for mixing it up, and occasionally shooting the shot with the right hand, because the defender will be thinking only to defend a left handed shot, and he won’t be able to react to that shot quickly enough to block it. The opposite is true for Moore. If he shoots all those layups with the right hand, and never uses his left, then defenders will anticipate what is coming and they will block those shots, which is what they are doing.

Most players are right handed and when they first get some serious coaching, they will be taught to shoot the left side layups with the left hand. For me, it was as a freshman in high school. We drilled on it in every practice, and the ones who could not do it, were sent out of the gym to run laps around the schoolyard. Times are different now, and there is probably less teaching, less discipline, and fewer players learning these fundamentals.

Nevertheless, if Tom Tolbert says it is OK not to learn how to shoot with the left, then it must be OK. Yes, he played on NBA teams for 7 seasons, and he talks a good game. Out of the 7 seasons, Tolbert had only one where he was a major contributor, 1993 with Orlando, which finished 41-41, and where he started 61 games and played an average of 25 minutes. He had two seasons with the Warriors where he did OK, but for most of his career, he was a bench player, and started once in a while for 5 teams in 7 years. My impression of Tolbert was that he never seemed to work harder to get any better at any part of his game, and he did not get any better in those 7 years, IMO. I don’t think Tolbert had much drive to get any better. I think Charlie Moore is the opposite. I think he has a lot of drive, and has had to, in order to get into the PAC12. I’d bet he wants to play at the next level, and if the coaches tell Charlie he needs to learn to shoot with his left to become a better player, Charlie will likely work on it to learn it.

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Just FWIW; but it occurs to me that no one agrees more heartily with what you say about Tolbert than Tolbert.

Can the idea that Charlie Moore does not shoot with his left hand be laid to rest please? Moore clearly made a driving lay-up with his left hand as he crossed over from the right to left side of the hoop with about 1 min. left in the WSU game....I thought I had seen him make several left handed shots earlier but couldn't put any definitive proof to my thoughts...now I am sure I wasn't wrong...he made that shot yesterday effortlessly, proving clearly that he CAN use his left hand...

bearmanpg;842794413 said:

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Can the idea that Charlie Moore does not shoot with his left hand be laid to rest please? Moore clearly made a driving lay-up with his left hand as he crossed over from the right to left side of the hoop with about 1 min. left in the WSU game....I thought I had seen him make several left handed shots earlier but couldn't put any definitive proof to my thoughts...now I am sure I wasn't wrong...he made that shot yesterday effortlessly, proving clearly that he CAN use his left hand...

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From where I was sitting, that release and bucket looked like the work of a magician.
I was amazed! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:woohoo

bearmanpg;842794413 said:

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Can the idea that Charlie Moore does not shoot with his left hand be laid to rest please? Moore clearly made a driving lay-up with his left hand as he crossed over from the right to left side of the hoop with about 1 min. left in the WSU game....I thought I had seen him make several left handed shots earlier but couldn't put any definitive proof to my thoughts...now I am sure I wasn't wrong...he made that shot yesterday effortlessly, proving clearly that he CAN use his left hand...

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Yup. Learning of his story of how he grew up working out and being coached up by his dad, and to think he wouldn't have worked on his left hand is pretty ridiculous.

bearmanpg;842794413 said:

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Can the idea that Charlie Moore does not shoot with his left hand be laid to rest please? Moore clearly made a driving lay-up with his left hand as he crossed over from the right to left side of the hoop with about 1 min. left in the WSU game....I thought I had seen him make several left handed shots earlier but couldn't put any definitive proof to my thoughts...now I am sure I wasn't wrong...he made that shot yesterday effortlessly, proving clearly that he CAN use his left hand...

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I agree bearman. What i'd like to see him do is drive and dish when he draws the d..... it would make him much more effective in my opinion.... also open up some 3 balls and some interior finishes for Ivan.... Kim and King don't have the hands for those close space interior passes....