Nice, thorough article. I am a little done with stories about Cuonzo as a saint though, as we read many times when he was here. I'm sorry to be cynical but the way it ended, and already the background from Tennessee, did not leave me a favorable impression of Cuonzo. With all that he's gone through, how do you just tank the NIT game like he did? Besides that, while he's an elite recruiter and very good defensive coach, he's a terrible offensive coach and in-game manager.EricBear said:
I believe this was mentioned elsewhere, but I did not see a link.
Good read:
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/01/16/missouri-basketball-coach-cuonzo-martin-cancer-michael-porter
SFCityBear said:I agree with everything you said, except I'm not so sure about the description, "elite recruiter". He essentially had 4 recruiting classes at Cal, and only one of his classes was a ranked class. He only landed 2 elite recruits in his time at Cal, and one of those, Ivan Rabb, was where Ivan's mom was pushing hard for Ivan to sign with Cal, so I'm not sure another coach at Cal could not have signed him. Jaylen Brown definitely was an elite recruit who would not have come to Cal if it were not for Cuonzo. Jemarl Baker, who decommitted from Cal when Cuonzo left, was ranked #66 by ESPN, which is high but not elite.KoreAmBear said:Nice, thorough article. I am a little done with stories about Cuonzo as a saint though, as we read many times when he was here. I'm sorry to be cynical but the way it ended, and already the background from Tennessee, did not leave me a favorable impression of Cuonzo. With all that he's gone through, how do you just tank the NIT game like he did? Besides that, while he's an elite recruiter and very good defensive coach, he's a terrible offensive coach and in-game manager.EricBear said:
I believe this was mentioned elsewhere, but I did not see a link.
Good read:
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/01/16/missouri-basketball-coach-cuonzo-martin-cancer-michael-porter
"Elite recruiter" in my mind means also that one must pay attention to the roster and recruit for need. Recruiting one-and-dones is flashy, but unless you back them up with more classes filled with them or other good recruits, they are no help to your program, such as getting Brown was not much help to the program. He had found a good but not elite player in Charlie Moore, but he had to bring in a point guard in 2017 to compete with Moore or back him up, and he failed to do that. He had to know that both Kingsley and Rooks would be done after 2018, and he needed to bring in a couple of bigs to replace them, and he failed to do that. I guess Domingo was once recognized as an elite recruit, but after two seasons where he scored one or two points a game at Georgetown, I'd seriously question Cuonzo's abiliity to evaluate talent in his recruiting. It was a waste of a scholarship. Also, giving a scholarship to Brandon Chauca, who had little or no potential, was a mistake. Before Cuonzo left and Rooks and Moore quit the team and Baker decommitted, 2018 was already not looking like a good year, and much of that was Martin's failure to do a good job recruiting in that season and in his previous seasons at Cal.
I'm with you there. I may be missing a player or two but I count only these:SFCityBear said:
I'm not so sure about the description, "elite recruiter".
Jeff82 said:
....He had a chance to finally cash in on his story, and he decided to do so, screwing Cal in the process. I'm rooting for him to lose every game.
That is an interesting way of looking at it, in terms of man-years. I would make a couple of very minor points. One is that Marcus Lee, rated #25 in the ESPN Top 100 of 2013, was an elite recruit at that time. He has not lived up to that expectation as a player. At Kentucky, there were better players ahead of him, and at Cal, he is not playing in a system that might take better advantage of his talents.stu said:I'm with you there. I may be missing a player or two but I count only these:SFCityBear said:
I'm not so sure about the description, "elite recruiter".
4-year players: Okoroh, Davis
3-year players: Coleman
2-year players: Chauca, Domingo, Rabb
1-year players: Tarwater, Brown, Mullins, Lee, Moore
Those add up to just 22 man-years, more like 16 considering Davis and Chauca have hardly played, over 3 seasons. And only 3 of those man-years from "elite" recruits (Rabb, Brown) and 2 from good recruits (Lee, Moore).
That's one way to express the lack of quantity. If you want 10 good players on the roster you need to recruit 10 man-years each season, about twice the number Martin managed.SFCityBear said:
That is an interesting way of looking at it, in terms of man-years.
I counted Lee as "good" because at the time Martin recruited him he no longer looked "elite".Quote:
Marcus Lee, rated #25 in the ESPN Top 100 of 2013, was an elite recruit at that time.
I agree, I was just giving Martin the benefit of the doubt.Quote:
Coleman is a Junior, and has played in 2 Cal seasons. There is no guarantee he will be playing for Cal next season, so it is early to say he will be a 3-year player. Same thing with Davis, who is a sophomore, and has played in 2 Cal seasons. There is no guarantee that he will play two more years at Cal.
It's tough to tell before they arrive. Montgomery had some notable hits (Gutierrez) and misses (Johnson). I think evaluation of talent is a critical component of recruiting, some coaches do very well with only under-the-radar recruits.Quote:
Tarwater might be one that would cause me to question Martin's abilities to evaluate a recruit. However, Mullins was a fine player for Cal, so he might be one to cause me to think Martin has a great eye for a talented recruit.
How do you know this? The time line was something like this:SBGold said:
Monty landed Domingo and I doubt Monty would have landed Rabb
Would Rabb have come if we had Poetl because Monty pretty much had him.SFCityBear said:How do you know this? The time line was something like this:SBGold said:
Monty landed Domingo and I doubt Monty would have landed Rabb
March 24, 2014 Georgetown's season ends.
March 31, 2014 Montgomery retires.
April 10 The Hoyas announce that Domingo is leaving Georgetown, but no destination school is mentioned.
April 14 Cuonzo Martin is hired by Cal.
May 5 Domingo signs with Cal, as reported by Cal Golden blogs
The only time Montgomery would have been allowed to talk with Domingo was after March 24, and he retired on March 31. I doubt that they talked, as it would have been unethical for Montgomery to try an persuade a recruit to come to Cal, knowing that he might not be Domingo's coach. Domingo may have had an interest in Cal, but after Martin retired, he waited another 3 weeks before transferring to Cal. It was Martin who landed Domingo.
You are probably right about Rabb, but we will never know that Montgomery would not have landed him.
socaltownie said:
Ah another Martin thread. Must be like #3000.
In the end, Martin left before we could evaluate his ability to build a PROGRAM. Sadly, I truly believe that absent Huff, the Bird Back and Ty's thumb we would have EASILY made the S16 and possibly deeper and that would have resulted in trajectory changing results. He is not a great coach but he is a solid to good recruiter.
Quote:
And one of the things that Martin did - which Monty didn't do - is break down some of the challenges with getting grad transfers. I don't think that is ALL on Martin but he did do it and it generally helped the program. A challenge for Jones is finding a way to so do as well....cause think about how the season would be a better one if we had even an Ivy league PG kind of player who could keep the frosh together and cohesive.
Brown disappeared because suddenly we lost our PG and our other forward. Not rocket science.SFCityBear said:socaltownie said:
Ah another Martin thread. Must be like #3000.
In the end, Martin left before we could evaluate his ability to build a PROGRAM. Sadly, I truly believe that absent Huff, the Bird Back and Ty's thumb we would have EASILY made the S16 and possibly deeper and that would have resulted in trajectory changing results. He is not a great coach but he is a solid to good recruiter.
In your dreams. Here we go with the excuses again. Perhaps you can explain the disappearance of Jaylen Brown vs Hawaii. In your world, in which coaching takes a back seat to recruit rankings, a player as highly ranked as Brown should have been able to put the team on his back and carry them into the next round at least. Especially against a team with no highly ranked players as Hawaii. You can't just add up the recruit rankings of your players and if your total is a lot higher than your opponent's total, you will win the game. The game, even with all 5-star elite recruits on your team, still requires a competent coach to put the pieces together, put the players in positions where they are most likely to succeed. Cuonzo never did that, and Jones has not done it yet either. It is a good thing Cuonzo never had to play Chaminade, or he would have had his hat handed to him. And if losing an assistant who was mainly a recruiter was a cause for losing to Hawaii, then the coach and team were just not very tough. Bird was a loss, but Bird was a streaky shooter. There is no guarantee of how he would have shot vs Hawaii. The loss of Wallace was tough, but I don't think that was why Cal lost that game. Singer stepped up and had a good game in Ty's place. Cal lost because they were well scouted, and Hawaii was more than ready for Cal. Brown played a few minutes, fouled out I think. Only Singer and Rabb played well, as I remember, but I could be wrong. We did not have an offensive plan all season long.Quote:
And one of the things that Martin did - which Monty didn't do - is break down some of the challenges with getting grad transfers. I don't think that is ALL on Martin but he did do it and it generally helped the program. A challenge for Jones is finding a way to so do as well....cause think about how the season would be a better one if we had even an Ivy league PG kind of player who could keep the frosh together and cohesive.
What were the challenges in getting grad transfers? I'd like to know. We got two, I think. Tarwater and Mullins. One was very little help, and the other was a good player, who played well for us. Grad tranefers do little more for a program than one-and-dones, IMO. They help for one year, and then you have to scurry for a replacement. You can't plan for the future with either one.
As for this season, yes, we need a point guard, but I don't know that if we did, we'd have a better season. Last season, we had two who could play point, Moore and Mullins, but we did not look "together and cohesive." The offensive plan comes from the coach. Maybe having a good point guard, like a Jason Kidd on the floor, means that you can make up for coaching deficiencies, because a good point guard is like a coach on the floor. I've seen it happen on my own high school team one year when we had a lousy coach, but a good point guard, and on one of my playground teams. It happened with Kidd and Campanelli, and others at Cal. But the biggest reason this is a bad year so far is Cal's defense is a sieve. You can't give opponents open looks on every shot . You can't play every game from 20 points behind, and you can't win giving up 80-100 points. One thing that hardly is considered in recruit rankings and that is defense, which is a big reason why highly rated recruits are not often the best recruits, especially if you are recruiting for defense. I'm not sure coaches even recruit for defense any more. Defense is more the coach's responsibility, to install a defensive system where his players can be successful. It has to be tailored to the personnel. This season, we are not doing it, IMO. You could put nothing but top 100 players on the floor, but if you don't have such a plan, they won't necessarily be a good defense.
KoreAmBear said:Would Rabb have come if we had Poetl because Monty pretty much had him.SFCityBear said:How do you know this? The time line was something like this:SBGold said:
Monty landed Domingo and I doubt Monty would have landed Rabb
March 24, 2014 Georgetown's season ends.
March 31, 2014 Montgomery retires.
April 10 The Hoyas announce that Domingo is leaving Georgetown, but no destination school is mentioned.
April 14 Cuonzo Martin is hired by Cal.
May 5 Domingo signs with Cal, as reported by Cal Golden blogs
The only time Montgomery would have been allowed to talk with Domingo was after March 24, and he retired on March 31. I doubt that they talked, as it would have been unethical for Montgomery to try an persuade a recruit to come to Cal, knowing that he might not be Domingo's coach. Domingo may have had an interest in Cal, but after Martin retired, he waited another 3 weeks before transferring to Cal. It was Martin who landed Domingo.
You are probably right about Rabb, but we will never know that Montgomery would not have landed him.
This. Leaving Cal's program in the state it's in is definitely a mark against him. He left Cal's program in worse shape than it was when he arrived.iwantwinners said:
Outside of getting commitments from Brown and Raab, I didn't like much of anything Cuonzo did at Cal. He didn't build a program, seemingly couldn't coach a lick, players never overachieved.
He saw Cal's out look the next 2-3 years and saw losing basketball, which would lower his market value, so when a major conference program near home offers you 7 years at a pay increase, you take it. Hard to blame him for leaving, but it's fair to blame him for accomplishing zilch, building nothing, and leaving a bare program with no identity and bereft of talent.
