There has been a lot of ink spilled on this and, as Cal80 (I believe correct handle) has pointed out in numerous threads, the W-L speak volumes.

But as others have said, he is in his 2nd year. Cal also isn't known for this kind of quick trigger and he inherited an awful situation when it came to who was here, who wasn't and the state of the program.

But I think if you look at this objectively you have to conclude that Williams got to an AWFUL place in the process. For all we know Jones may have been option E but, irrespective, that choice has proved not good.

Lets underscore beyond the W-L the reasons why


A) Jones coaching backgroud is a very poor fit for Cal.

Jones has sadly not been mentored by program builders in the classic mold of a guy like Monty that built something from the ground up. Alford has proven largely to be a guy who recruits well but doesn't build a sustained program. I don't think we need to comment on Pitino expect to say that we are unlikely to find great stippers in close proximity to campus. I don't know enough about Paul Westphal to comment but he always struck me as a guy that was a Pepperdine to get another gig while living in Malibu. He clearly didn't lay a foundation for excellence. He wasn't with Martin very long but Martin strikes me as a guy who believes you go out, find a 5 star, and ride that train for as long as possible to the next one.

So he is absolutely foundering because he has never been mentored on this (or at least it is not obvious from his actions or his resume). Cal DEMANDS a guy that gets that it is a multi-year process. You recruit one year go get the guys who will mentor and make it better for the next guys. You take on some projects with the idea that you bring them along slowly - with an idea of how they fit into your 5-7 year plan. Cal will NOT be a consistent lander of 5 stars. That doesn't mean we can't or that we are destined for horribleness. But you can't build your PLAN around that strategy. It is house money when it happens, you should always be trying but it is "plan B".

B) Recruiting

Jones seems to have been doing well but if you look at our recruiting page on this site and who we "beat" it isn't that great. Oregon for Gordon, Utah for Kelly, ASU for Brown. They all look like great kids, happy to have them here, good foundational pieces but if people are saying we are doing great recruiting I think you have to be honest that it isn't like we are talking Brown, Young Ivee, or Kidd levels of recruiting levels. It is solid Cal, MM level recruiting work without Monty's ability to coach up. Indeed, you could argue that so far Monty's recruiting was superior. Clearly Braun's was better.

C) Eyeball test.

Pretty clear that the kids are not happy and fairly depressed. He is in real danger of losing the team. IN the modern era that means mass transfers - which means that year 3 becomes year 1.

D) Buts in seats. We never really draw well in the early season but last night was horrific. It will only get worse. Cal fans are fickle in that they do not want to get blown out by a WCC team.

The real question is do you make a move now or the day after we get booted from the 11-12 game at the Pac-12 tournie> I can see an argument either way. You can't (likely) go out and start actively seeking out his replacement until after March ANYWAY since the assistants and coaches you want to look at are working. It probably hurts your recruiting to be in this limbo. So that would argue to stay the course. But if the players are done and want a change making the move now signals that you get their frustration and you are going to do what can be to help.

socaltownie said:

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There has been a lot of ink spilled on this and, as Cal80 (I believe correct handle) has pointed out in numerous threads, the W-L speak volumes.

But as others have said, he is in his 2nd year. Cal also isn't known for this kind of quick trigger and he inherited an awful situation when it came to who was here, who wasn't and the state of the program.

But I think if you look at this objectively you have to conclude that Williams got to an AWFUL place in the process. For all we know Jones may have been option E but, irrespective, that choice has proved not good.

Lets underscore beyond the W-L the reasons why


A) Jones coaching backgroud is a very poor fit for Cal.

Jones has sadly not been mentored by program builders in the classic mold of a guy like Monty that built something from the ground up. Alford has proven largely to be a guy who recruits well but doesn't build a sustained program. I don't think we need to comment on Pitino expect to say that we are unlikely to find great stippers in close proximity to campus. I don't know enough about Paul Westphal to comment but he always struck me as a guy that was a Pepperdine to get another gig while living in Malibu. He clearly didn't lay a foundation for excellence. He wasn't with Martin very long but Martin strikes me as a guy who believes you go out, find a 5 star, and ride that train for as long as possible to the next one.

So he is absolutely foundering because he has never been mentored on this (or at least it is not obvious from his actions or his resume). Cal DEMANDS a guy that gets that it is a multi-year process. You recruit one year go get the guys who will mentor and make it better for the next guys. You take on some projects with the idea that you bring them along slowly - with an idea of how they fit into your 5-7 year plan. Cal will NOT be a consistent lander of 5 stars. That doesn't mean we can't or that we are destined for horribleness. But you can't build your PLAN around that strategy. It is house money when it happens, you should always be trying but it is "plan B".

B) Recruiting

Jones seems to have been doing well but if you look at our recruiting page on this site and who we "beat" it isn't that great. Oregon for Gordon, Utah for Kelly, ASU for Brown. They all look like great kids, happy to have them here, good foundational pieces but if people are saying we are doing great recruiting I think you have to be honest that it isn't like we are talking Brown, Young Ivee, or Kidd levels of recruiting levels. It is solid Cal, MM level recruiting work without Monty's ability to coach up. Indeed, you could argue that so far Monty's recruiting was superior. Clearly Braun's was better.

C) Eyeball test.

Pretty clear that the kids are not happy and fairly depressed. He is in real danger of losing the team. IN the modern era that means mass transfers - which means that year 3 becomes year 1.

D) Buts in seats. We never really draw well in the early season but last night was horrific. It will only get worse. Cal fans are fickle in that they do not want to get blown out by a WCC team.

The real question is do you make a move now or the day after we get booted from the 11-12 game at the Pac-12 tournie> I can see an argument either way. You can't (likely) go out and start actively seeking out his replacement until after March ANYWAY since the assistants and coaches you want to look at are working. It probably hurts your recruiting to be in this limbo. So that would argue to stay the course. But if the players are done and want a change making the move now signals that you get their frustration and you are going to do what can be to help.

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Good post. For me (watching the team on TV) the most egregious issue is your C) Eyeball Test. I can make allowances for a young team, but if they are ever to mature into a strong unit, their needs to be evidence of structure and discipline, and I see neither. These kids seem to be given a general idea of what offense and defense to run and then are left on their own to execute. Too often I see them devolve into ME-BALL on offense or repeatedly leave a hot shooter wide open on defense. When this happens, I see little effort from the coaches to get things back on track or to get in the face of the player(s) screwing up. The real sign of dysfunction, however, is the lack of hustle I've seen too often from some of the "better" players on this team without any consequences from the coach.

It looks to me like my fear is being realized, that the whole period starting with Martin's hire, and continuing with Jones, will end up being a giant diversion that basically accomplished nothing in terms of moving the program forward long term. I think if this season is as bad or worse than last year, which is looking like the case, Knowlton will be forced to make a change just to be seen to be doing something, so that all fan/donor support for the program doesn't evaporate.

Assuming he makes the change, we'll be looking at the same options (Decuire, Turner, Ganot, Les, etc) that we were looking at when Monty retired. The issue will be more who is willing to take on the renovation project, rather than who do we want to choose to run the program. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it appears we should have followed Monty's advice and elevated Travis, in order to stay more or less on the same path we were on.

I am probably not going to anymore games until Jones is gone. Never missed one since 1986, unless on vacation. Three season tickets. The awful double volume rap music last night was the final nail in the coffin.

socaltownie said:

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.....

The real question is do you make a move now or the day after we get booted from the 11-12 game at the Pac-12 tournie> I can see an argument either way. You can't (likely) go out and start actively seeking out his replacement until after March ANYWAY since the assistants and coaches you want to look at are working. It probably hurts your recruiting to be in this limbo. So that would argue to stay the course. But if the players are done and want a change making the move now signals that you get their frustration and you are going to do what can be to help.

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This is the crux of the issue. My sense is that no one is impressed with Wyking, but is willing to give him the opportunity to prove that there is more to him as a coach, then hope.

So far, 7 games in, this is a missed opportunity. He simply hasn't shown us ANYTHING. My expectations were low at this point, but any coach with a basic understanding of leadership and organizational dysfunction, would have recognized that this group needs to have an identity and demonstrate progress that matches the identity. That identity could be lots of things (defensive team - a la Cuonzo, well organized team - a la Monty, athletic team, shooting team, driving team, rebounding, shot blocking, plucky, fast, happy and exciting). Just pick something and focus.

At this point, the identity seems to be disorganized and disinterested. No need to re-hash the Dierks/Williams/Jones debacle - it was a perfect storm of dysfunction. Knowlton needs to work the back channels, so that when the search is announced - it is already clear what the succession plan is.

FWIW, based on the post game interview last night, it seems to me that Jones already is aware that he is done at seasons end, but doing his best to steer the ship through the season.

Knowlton seems like he knows what he's doing, so I don't expect an announcement until after the final four.

SCT:

With one exception, I find this a level-headed, thoughtful post. My one quibble is that you argue for a recruiting plan that doesn't rely on the unicorns (5*), but goes for solid players with good upside; but then you seem to criticize Jones' recruiting for doing just that and not getting any Jason Kidds or Jaylen Browns. And you seem to think that beating Oregon or Utah in a recruiting battle is chopped liver, when they are solid programs (cheating aside, Oregon has advanced pretty far in the tournament recently). Otherwise, I agree with you.

UrsaMajor said:

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SCT:

With one exception, I find this a level-headed, thoughtful post. My one quibble is that you argue for a recruiting plan that doesn't rely on the unicorns (5*), but goes for solid players with good upside; but then you seem to criticize Jones' recruiting for doing just that and not getting any Jason Kidds or Jaylen Browns. And you seem to think that beating Oregon or Utah in a recruiting battle is chopped liver, when they are solid programs (cheating aside, Oregon has advanced pretty far in the tournament recently). Otherwise, I agree with you.

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What I want on the recruiting side is a program that "realizes its limitations" BUT does not mail it in like Monty. In other words, work hard to keep Ivan as a chance but not hinge everything on him. Make sure you can take a Sharref and welcome him with open arms but not make that your core strategy and accept that those 5* are unlikely to come to cal so you need to be careful about leaving core slots open for them. Jones, it seemed, found some horrifically bad middle ground - not fully committing to EITHER pathway and instead playing short schollies this year.

I sorta discounted our head to head with Oregon and Utah cause I wasn't sure how all in their were with Brown and Gordon but you are right - winning those is a good thing.

socaltownie said:

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UrsaMajor said:

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SCT:

With one exception, I find this a level-headed, thoughtful post. My one quibble is that you argue for a recruiting plan that doesn't rely on the unicorns (5*), but goes for solid players with good upside; but then you seem to criticize Jones' recruiting for doing just that and not getting any Jason Kidds or Jaylen Browns. And you seem to think that beating Oregon or Utah in a recruiting battle is chopped liver, when they are solid programs (cheating aside, Oregon has advanced pretty far in the tournament recently). Otherwise, I agree with you.

---

What I want on the recruiting side is a program that "realizes its limitations" BUT does not mail it in like Monty. In other words, work hard to keep Ivan as a chance but not hinge everything on him. Make sure you can take a Sharref and welcome him with open arms but not make that your core strategy and accept that those 5* are unlikely to come to cal so you need to be careful about leaving core slots open for them. Jones, it seemed, found some horrifically bad middle ground - not fully committing to EITHER pathway and instead playing short schollies this year.

I sorta discounted our head to head with Oregon and Utah cause I wasn't sure how all in their were with Brown and Gordon but you are right - winning those is a good thing.

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I think Jones' MAJOR recruiting failure was his handling of the McCullogh/Watson fiasco, leaving him with no scholarships to play with. The recruiting itself has been good, given what he has to sell.

That fiasco was a pretty big one. Plus, while I agree he has done "OK" I am not sure it is as good as Monty. Better than camp. Worse than early Braun.

oskidunker said:

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I am probably not going to anymore games until Jones is gone. Never missed one since 1986, unless on vacation. Three season tickets. The awful double volume rap music last night was the final nail in the coffin.

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We will miss you (and all the others) but I agree, last night the noise was awful. At one point my buddy and I gave up trying to converse over the noise. It made being there for that debacle just that much more unpleasant. Why were they doing that?

Go!Bears said:

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oskidunker said:

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I am probably not going to anymore games until Jones is gone. Never missed one since 1986, unless on vacation. Three season tickets. The awful double volume rap music last night was the final nail in the coffin.

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We will miss you (and all the others) but I agree, last night the noise was awful. At one point my buddy and I gave up trying to converse over the noise. It made being there for that debacle just that much more unpleasant. Why were they doing that?

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I also agree about the noise. I have listened to loud music all my life, so it isn't that I am some get-off-my-lawn guy that hates loud music--but the decibel level in the past couple of games seems aberrant.

Does today's sound still qualify as music? I DVR SNL every week. I never get 10 seconds into the "musical" guest before I fast forward. I would love to be a fly on the wall at the corporate meeting when they make the determination who has the musical talent they are going to promote. It has to involve a chimp throwing darts.

Compare the perfection of Al Green to the free styling garbage of today.* James Brown used to beat up his band members if they missed a note or didn't keep pace. During live performances Brown could be heard yelling at offending band members, "That'll cost you $50, that'll cost you a $100." If he was still with us today, Mr. Brown would have a hard time finding people who can play a musical instrument.








*Official thread hijacking

bearister said:

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Does today's sound still qualify as music? I DVR SNL every week. I never get 10 seconds into the "musical" guest before I fast forward. I would love to be a fly on the wall at the corporate meeting when they make the determination who has the musical talent they are going to promote. It has to involve a chimp throwing darts.

Compare the perfection of Al Green to the free styling garbage of today.* James Brown used to beat up his band members if they missed a note or didn't keep pace. During live performances Brown could be heard yelling at offending band members, "That'll cost you $50, that'll cost you a $100." If he was still with us today, Mr. Brown would have a hard time finding people who can play a musical instrument.








*Official thread hijacking

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Preach Brother Bearister. Now don't get me going on the ridiculous narcissistic treatments of the National Anthem, with all the arpeggios and warbling up and down for style, which is pretty much a staple at the games these days. A couple of years ago I decided to loudly sing along by matching the warbling singer note for note, warble by warble, arpeggio by arpeggio (only a nanosecond behind the singer--its just a talent of mine ). But my wife made me stop because she said it was embarrassing and disrespectful. Whitney Houston, I miss you.

Just sing the dam song. No need to customize it and make it bad.

It appears by your post that you already know this, but I have been advised that the "warble" of which you speak is a stylistic method of camouflaging the inability to hold a note.

socaltownie said:

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The real question is do you make a move now or the day after we get booted from the 11-12 game at the Pac-12 tournie

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The latter (I think it's a 9 vs. 12 game, but whatever).

Nothing to be gained by making a move in-season unless the players stop playing hard; that would give you no choice.

BearSD said:

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socaltownie said:

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The real question is do you make a move now or the day after we get booted from the 11-12 game at the Pac-12 tournie

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The latter (I think it's a 9 vs. 12 game, but whatever).

Nothing to be gained by making a move in-season unless the players stop playing hard; that would give you no choice.

It's happening.

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Full blown hijack bandwagon jumping in 3...2...1....

Over the years, HAAS has had two INCREDIBLE national anthem performances.

One was a member of AFROTC, I believe. He sang a simple, straight a capella Star Spangled Banner. BUT, he had exceptional vocal technique, a beautiful voice and was in touch with the acoustics and crowd that night. The other was a gorgeous trumpet solo. In both cases, the crowd reacted with overwhelming appreciation.

BeachedBear said:

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Full blown hijack bandwagon jumping in 3...2...1....

Over the years, HAAS has had two INCREDIBLE national anthem performances.

One was a member of AFROTC, I believe. He sang a simple, straight a capella Star Spangled Banner. BUT, he had exceptional vocal technique, a beautiful voice and was in touch with the acoustics and crowd that night. The other was a gorgeous trumpet solo. In both cases, the crowd reacted with overwhelming appreciation.

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Then you will appreciate the National Anthem as performed by the greatest trumpet player of all time:

If I hear one more ass**** ( male or female) disrespecting the National Anthem by taking 45 minutes to sing this song , I swear I will bolt from the stands and commit mayhem on the offending singer ( singers) I want to wring the neck of the manager (s) who are failing to tell the singers to JUYST SING THE ******* SONG STRAIGHT Also----I have to agree with Oskidunker who was appalled by the incredibly obnoxious rap music . my patience is becoming very, very limited. AD Knowlton will soon be hearing from me concerning these two idiotic happenings. Knowlton is a Military man and so, I know he is just as offended by the narcisstic happenings as some of us are.

Who decides what music should be Played? The SF Giants don't play this crap. They play music from the 60,'s 70's and 80's because that is the music their season ticket holders like. They play to their audience.

Yet we are told "The team "likes the rap music and it energizes them. The way they are playiing disqualifies them from picking the music. The few brave souls that attend should not have to put up with the audio assault probably conceived by someone 25.

Cal could make a bad situation better but they don't. Vote with your feet.

Nearly everything I love about Cal basketball under assault.
1. Love warm-ups. Now assaulted by DJ music (?) at impossible decibals described by others.
2. No Straw Hat band. Understand conflicting engagement, studying for finals (doubt that), couldn't coordinate with alumni band? Why not. Can't remember when band last abandoned a game. Sad.
3. Unusually low attendance, even by the pre-PAC-12 crowd. 8:00 should help commuters? Where were all the HillTop fans.
4. Dismal Cal team (and coaching) energy. Others have described better than I. After game comments by WJ on radio disturbing.
5. Had to adopt Frankie Ferrari to keep my head in game.
6. Now I read Oski Dunker will not attend games until DJ is identified, questioned, and issue is resolved. Right OD? Would be nice to have a conversation with fellow fans during timeouts.
Practically I only have a few seasons left to enjoy this college game. We support this team with attendance and donations. Time for management to listen and prepare for change(s).

What did jones say?. I don't listen to post game anymore to Tod McKimm try to make a horrible performance into something good.

Quote:

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I just can't stand the whole experience anymore. Maybe I'll change my mind in a January. Thinking about four more months of this crap is really mind boggling.

Jim.knowlton@berkeley.edu. Let him know what you think about all of this. I think he will listen. Maybe Gordon Bayne could do something about the sound system. Not sure. If I am the only one complaing, nothing will happen

I enjoy talking to you and your husband. Hang in there. Next year will be better.

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I watched postgame presser. You are right. Wyking knows his days are numbered. What happens next?

I generally like the music they play in Haas

It's a basketball game, and I like to hear music with energy

When I shoot around at the gym or park, I use wireless ear buds and listen to a mix of new music, some 70s-90s, asian and latin music (even when I don't understand the words) ... I think the best for shooting is trance or house... anything that has energy

but I get that different people have different music tastes... not sure that was ever different, or will ever change

[sorry, hit the wrong button]

HoopDreams said:

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I generally like the music they play in Haas

It's a basketball game, and I like to hear music with energy

When I shoot around at the gym or park, I use wireless ear buds and listen to a mix of new music, some 70s-90s, asian and latin music (even when I don't understand the words) ... I think the best for shooting is trance or house... anything that has energy

but I get that different people have different music tastes... not sure that was ever different, or will ever change

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Not sure about others, but my issue is NOT with the music selection (I have eclectic tastes in music and appreciate the diversity). My issue is with volume and timing. Whoever is at the controls just seems out of touch with the audience and the game and just needs to chill a bit.

However, the problem with the volume is that we have NO choice but to suffer. Sort of like the arguments of the anti-smoking movement: If you want to smoke, that is your choice, but smoking in my face takes away my choice. If the volume is lower (to the level that you can converse with your neighbor without shouting), THEN individuals at least have a chance to ignore it or tune it out.

There have been times, when I need to cover my ears due to the pain. That is simply unnecessary volume.

Some of this criticism is generational. We're getting the same package at football now. Know many others are missing the historical enthusiasm of Harmon and early Haas days, students racing for their seats as the doors opened, band playing almost constantly (DJ's were not invented), micmen/women (think Kate) were clever and constantly engaged. You see the comparison to what we experience now. There isn't any "going back", but going forward there are some things that can be improved.

I wear earbuds too, but no longer shooting hoops!

Beach and Mama

I think everyone long for the 'good ole days' and that includes me

and I'm pretty certain that all three of us are saddened by the changes because we love Cal

I try to be fair to the Cal people involved in all things as I am pretty sure it's a tough job with budget issues, lack of resources, competing priorities, etc. But it's frustrating when it seems to me that there are some 'small stuff' that we just don't get right.

As you said, it used to just happen because the students and fans brought in their own energy, and that was even when Cal had bad teams. For some it's the music selection or volume, for me it's the other things.

I get both of you

HoopDreams said:

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I generally like the music they play in Haas

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The problem is that what they play in Haas is not really "music".

What variety?..

bearister said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Full blown hijack bandwagon jumping in 3...2...1....

Over the years, HAAS has had two INCREDIBLE national anthem performances.

One was a member of AFROTC, I believe. He sang a simple, straight a capella Star Spangled Banner. BUT, he had exceptional vocal technique, a beautiful voice and was in touch with the acoustics and crowd that night. The other was a gorgeous trumpet solo. In both cases, the crowd reacted with overwhelming appreciation.

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Then you will appreciate the National Anthem as performed by the greatest trumpet player of all time:

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I totally love Satchmo, but no one holds a candle to Miles. (Kind of Blue may be the greatest album of all time regardless of genre)

Yes, as far as my personal taste, I agree with you. I think Miles gave the nod to Armstrong. According to Ken Burns documentary Armstrong was off the charts with technical and creative talent. I am not a musician so I cannot state this properly but here goes: the documentary said there is a certain musical note on the trumpet that you have to be very talented to hit and that if you have the ability you can probably only hit it once in a song. Armstrong could hit it 40 times in a song. I will see if I can find that passage.

Yeah, I remember the docu, but not that particular quote. Be interest in it. I think part of Armstrong's "problem" was that he was schooled in New Orleans in the 20's, where jazz was more structured and never got into the be-bop or modal movements. Part of my bias is that Kind of Blue may be the most "perfect" album ever recorded.

True