very strange game. we were in zone and it was working. ASU was bricking shots, and we protected the paint.

I was imagining their bigs thrashing us in the paint and rebounding, but neither happened till the end when we were gambling on D. White had 5 pts and 4 boards until his garbage time dunk.

The last guy I expected to beat us with baskets was Remy. I liked his game from watching him last year, but he's never been a shooter, and hasn't been this year either. Saavy PG with great handles and vision, but hitting fade away contested 3s???

We tried to adjust to Remy, but it opened up the ASU that I was afraid of before the game (the ASU that scores/rebounds inside)

If he didn't go superman on us, I think we would have won.

There were some bright spots. I think Bradley should now be our 2nd string PG. Yeah, McNeil can run point on occasion, but Bradley runs the point better. He just needs to stay more focused and avoid the passing turnovers. He certainly is dangerous with the ball in his hands.

McNeil is vastly improved over last year, and improved more since the beginning of the year in his shooting guard role. I think it's his natural position, and I really like that he now doesn't just shoot 3s. Still tries to score on fast breaks with defenders right there, instead of passing to a better option.

Vanover's post defense reminds me a lot of King. The way to beat him is to face up 8-10 feet from the hoop, and then drive on him. Will be a score or a foul every time. Vanover just can't move his feet fast enough.

ASU turned it around after Remy started to go off, and then because they out toughed/hustled us in the middle of the game.

strange game

Ifs and buts...

If Martin shoots closer to his season percentage from 3 Cal wins the game.

But if ASU as a team shoots its season percentage from 3 they still win.

HoopDreams said:

---

Vanover's post defense reminds me a lot of King. The way to beat him is to face up 8-10 feet from the hoop, and then drive on him. Will be a score or a foul every time. Vanover just can't move his feet fast enough.

---

I don't think it's just his speed (although that's a big part of it). He takes bad angles on his shuffle and his end positioning. I watch him try and close baseline, and even when he does get their early he leaves a gap and then sort of bends in a reach up top. He doesn't stand and wall off, he just moves along side the offensive player and reaches over to try and get a block. He doesn't make the person have to drive through him. It's really odd for a player his height. A bad habit from high school where he could perhaps get a sneaky steal from the side or from behind?

Strength and conditioning will help, but he needs some help on fundamental positioning too. He will big a major talent in 2 years though. Amit Tamir?

Great points above regarding Vanover's D. Now the question: How many points do you allow to be scored on him before you sit him? Whatever that threshold is, I felt it was painfully exceeded last night to the point where it was demoralizing to our game effort. However, my pain threshold stiffens in those games where his hook and trey are dropping with enough regularity to afford us the luxury of his D.

bearister said:

---

Great points above regarding Vanover's D. Now the question: How many points do you allow to be scored on him before you sit him? Whatever that threshold is, I felt it was painfully exceeded last night to the point where it was demoralizing to our game effort. However, my pain threshold stiffens in those games where his hook and trey are dropping with enough regularity to afford us the luxury of his D.

---

Agree on all this. At the game last night, early on it did seem like he was a substantial reason why ASU missed so many shots, as his mere presence intimidated shooters into missing and he got a block or two. He certainly has skills and confidence for a big man that should serve him well going forward--decent shot, good hands, good court awareness. On defense, he needs to learn to stay straight vertically and stop reaching forward for blocks. Kravish figured this out early and was quite effective. The lack of foot movement is something I would hope is coachable, but perhaps it is not.

Vanover's lack of movement on defense may be from tentativeness and overthinking, instead of just playing. Also, several of the layups scored while he was in were the result of bad defense on the perimeter which left Vanover with a choice of whom to guard, and a decision to help too late. His strength and footspeed can improve, but those are not the reasons for the team's defensive problems.

Civil Bear said:

---

Ifs and buts...

If Martin shoots closer to his season percentage from 3 Cal wins the game.

But if ASU as a team shoots its season percentage from 3 they still win.

---

There are many ways to beat us at this point, and that's the problem. Right now we are a one-half competitive team. I mean the SC, UCLA and ASU games were competitive up until halftime. So it shows me that we do not know what to do with adjustments.

Many very good points here. I would add one: we ran out of gas in the 2nd half. Sueing in particular. Our D went with it, helped by an over zealous officiating crew who sucked the life out of the game.

One bright spot: our offense has really improved since the beginning of the season. A lot of penetrating and dishing, and some actual screens being set regularly. Not sure why it took so long, and I missed a few games where this was probably became obvious, but it was nice to see. Rebounding still needs some work. A lot of work.

Our rebounding has improved. ASU had 34; Bears 33. We tied SC at 32 and lost to Bruins by 6 boards.

All the players seem to be hitting the boards harder, which shows that they are responding to the coaching (such as it is).

Regarding your earlier post about Vanover and R Davis, it is with great respect that I have to say that I couldn't disagree more. Vanover brings positive things, even on D (sometimes). Davis, well, good for him for staying with things and earning some minutes, but...

Big C said:

---

All the players seem to be hitting the boards harder, which shows that they are responding to the coaching (such as it is).

Regarding your earlier post about Vanover and R Davis, it is with great respect that I have to say that I couldn't disagree more. Vanover brings positive things, even on D (sometimes). Davis, well, good for him for staying with things and earning some minutes, but...

---

So then I assume that you explain Roman's performance in the WSU game last year with the "even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day" theory? I am a big believer in the theory that a lousy player never lucks out like that. I think coaches give up on some players sooner than they do on others.

bearister said:

---

Big C said:

---

All the players seem to be hitting the boards harder, which shows that they are responding to the coaching (such as it is).

Regarding your earlier post about Vanover and R Davis, it is with great respect that I have to say that I couldn't disagree more. Vanover brings positive things, even on D (sometimes). Davis, well, good for him for staying with things and earning some minutes, but...

---

So then I assume that you explain Roman's performance in the WSU game last year with the "even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day" theory? I am a big believer in the theory that a lousy player never lucks out like that. I think coaches give up on some players sooner than they do on others.

---

He had that one good game. Heck, I'd love to see him have ten more of those this year. But it wasn't like he went for 20 and 10. How many games has he played at Cal? Again, I feel like I should qualify everything I say about him by noting that I'm rooting for him to do well, but this is his fourth year in the program and he's usually one step away from where he should be, or losing the ball somehow.

If Roman Davis averages 5 ppg or 3 rpg or has a 1/1 assist-turnover ratio the rest of this year, I will come back here in March and shower him with praise. If he does all three (minimum 10 games played), I will donate $1000 to Cal athletics or to a charity of his choice. Happily. (That is "real money" for me, btw.)

bearister said:

---

So then I assume that you explain Roman's performance in the WSU game last year with the "even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day" theory? I am a big believer in the theory that a lousy player never lucks out like that. I think coaches give up on some players sooner than they do on others.

---

I'm about the lousiest player anyone could imagine - in ten or twelve years of pickup games with other faculty I typically made one basket in an hour and a half. But once or twice I had a day where I couldn't miss. I must be related to that broken watch as it never happened a third time.

I can't explain why Davis hasn't repeated his one excellent game. Nor Hamilton. Nor Deb Oldenberger, who mostly sat on the bench for four years then had a spectacular performance in her final game. The last was a great fan experience as I was sitting next to her mom.

stu said:

---

bearister said:

---

So then I assume that you explain Roman's performance in the WSU game last year with the "even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day" theory? I am a big believer in the theory that a lousy player never lucks out like that. I think coaches give up on some players sooner than they do on others.

---

I'm about the lousiest player anyone could imagine - in ten or twelve years of pickup games with other faculty I typically made one basket in an hour and a half. But once or twice I had a day where I couldn't miss. I must be related to that broken watch as it never happened a third time.

I can't explain why Davis hasn't repeated his one excellent game. Nor Hamilton. Nor Deb Oldenberger, who mostly sat on the bench for four years then had a spectacular performance in her final game. The last was a great fan experience as I was sitting next to her mom.

---

Same deal with me. Horrible shooter from pretty much anywhere on the court. But I've had occasional runs where I've hit several long jumpers in a row. I imagine for someone with actual athletic ability (as opposed to whatever it is I have) it must be possible every now and then.

Our defensive woes affect our rebounding in another way. Most of the 2nd half, NO ONE attempted to grab an offensive rebound. Instead EVERYONE turned and ran back on defense, ceding the glass to ASU.

KoreAmBear said:

---

There are many ways to beat us at this point, and that's the problem. Right now we are a one-half competitive team. I mean the SC, UCLA and ASU games were competitive up until halftime. So it shows me that we do not know what to do with adjustments.

---

Bingo!

KoreAmBear said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

Ifs and buts...

If Martin shoots closer to his season percentage from 3 Cal wins the game.

But if ASU as a team shoots its season percentage from 3 they still win.

---

There are many ways to beat us at this point, and that's the problem. Right now we are a one-half competitive team. I mean the SC, UCLA and ASU games were competitive up until halftime. So it shows me that we do not know what to do with adjustments.

---

If we have become a one-half competitive team, then that is progress, and improvement. Baby steps.

UrsaMajor said:

---

Our defensive woes affect our rebounding in another way. Most of the 2nd half, NO ONE attempted to grab an offensive rebound. Instead EVERYONE turned and ran back on defense, ceding the glass to ASU.

---

I noticed that as well.

Golden One said:

---

fat_slice said:

---

Coaching crew looks like a bunch of bozos at this point. Still don't know why I rush home to watch this hot garbage. See you all Saturday!!!! LOL

---

I've been silent thus far during all of the back and forth on this site regarding Wyking Jones, but after tonight's debacle, I'm convinced he has to go, and the sooner the better. Jones was so out-coached by Hurley tonight that it's outright embarrassing. Our Bears got off to a fast start tonight, going up by 14 points. Then Hurley made adjustments, and Jones was totally incapable of effectively counteracting those adjustments. Our 14 point advantage dropped to 2 at halftime, and to a 14 point deficit later in the game. Plus, with about 5 minutes remaining in the game and victory still a possibility, he puts in Roman Davis and Harris-Dyson for the rest of the game, neither of who can score, and sits Justice Sueing, who can score. Then, he insists on playing a full court press, which our guys are totally incapable of effectively executing, resulting in an easy 10 points off the press by ASU. It's time to hire a real D1 coach.

---

I have slowly been coming over to the side who believes a coaching change is needed. But after watching last night's game in person, I saw too many issues that clearly show a problem with coaching.

Like Golden One notes, there were some horrible late game coaching decisions.

The first two ASU possessions after we full court press ended in easy dunks - worst outcome possible.

Roman Davis comes in when there is still some faint hope of making a comeback and he shoots 0-3 from the field and badly misses 3 out of 4 free throws.

At the 2 minute mark and ASU up by 12, Jones elects not to foul and although the Bears got a stop, it was due to shot clock violation and we lost 25% of the remaining time. Monty would have been fouling ASU until it looked ridiculous to continue to do so. Would we have come back? Probably not but at least it would have given us some faint hope. I used to hate that tendency by Monty when he coached at Furd but I eventually realized that he probably viewed situations like that as practice for when it really mattered.

Other issues I observed:

- poor spacing on the zone defense leaving a wide open middle AND baseline resulting in too many easy layups

- switching to a man to man in the 2nd half at the same time he was subbing Anticevich into the game. ASU immediately forced a switch that left Martin being guarded by Anticevich who he promptly took to the hoop for a foul.

- McNeil getting out on break and taking it to the hoop in a 1 on 3 situation and he missed the shot leaving ASU with an easy rebound.

- I really don't know what the desired outcome of the offense is unless it's either a) 3 pointers while closely guarded with the shot clock winding down or b) wild 1 on 1 forays to the hoop. Assists are rare indeed. Austin being out didn't help but I've seen the same issue in other games.

- saw many times where Kelly posted up and had his man sealed off but rarely got the ball

- saw some fundamental issues when the big man pops out to set a screen on the perimeter. First issue is that the ball handler doesn't always run his man INTO the screener. Second issue is that after setting the "screen", the big often just floats out to the wing instead of rolling to the basket. On one occasion where Kelly did roll to the basket, he turned the wrong way.

All of the above reflects poorly on the coaching staff but I don't know what it's going to take to get Wyking out at this point.

Basically there is no discipline. The players do what they want and you see the results. A few people I know thst are high up in the Alumni assoc that donate alot ,keep assuring me that change will occur soon. I am in the camp that thinks not until March.

Hang in there. I know it is not much fun. Didnt go last night and wont go for Arizona. Have season tickets since 1986. Also not watching on tv. It is just too painful and ruins my day.

It's not just Davis's results and box score that I base my opinion upon, and I've been rooting for him to have a key role on the team. I view his upside is another Roger (meaning I don't even judge him on his offense, as much as on his defense and rebounding)

But watching his fundamentals, instincts, shooting form, stance, etc

I see occasional flashes that gives me hope, but overall I just don't see it

gmunay said:

---

Golden One said:

---

fat_slice said:

---

Coaching crew looks like a bunch of bozos at this point. Still don't know why I rush home to watch this hot garbage. See you all Saturday!!!! LOL

---

I've been silent thus far during all of the back and forth on this site regarding Wyking Jones, but after tonight's debacle, I'm convinced he has to go, and the sooner the better. Jones was so out-coached by Hurley tonight that it's outright embarrassing. Our Bears got off to a fast start tonight, going up by 14 points. Then Hurley made adjustments, and Jones was totally incapable of effectively counteracting those adjustments. Our 14 point advantage dropped to 2 at halftime, and to a 14 point deficit later in the game. Plus, with about 5 minutes remaining in the game and victory still a possibility, he puts in Roman Davis and Harris-Dyson for the rest of the game, neither of who can score, and sits Justice Sueing, who can score. Then, he insists on playing a full court press, which our guys are totally incapable of effectively executing, resulting in an easy 10 points off the press by ASU. It's time to hire a real D1 coach.

---

I have slowly been coming over to the side who believes a coaching change is needed. But after watching last night's game in person, I saw too many issues that clearly show a problem with coaching.

Like Golden One notes, there were some horrible late game coaching decisions.

The first two ASU possessions after we full court press ended in easy dunks - worst outcome possible.

Roman Davis comes in when there is still some faint hope of making a comeback and he shoots 0-3 from the field and badly misses 3 out of 4 free throws.

At the 2 minute mark and ASU up by 12, Jones elects not to foul and although the Bears got a stop, it was due to shot clock violation and we lost 25% of the remaining time. Monty would have been fouling ASU until it looked ridiculous to continue to do so. Would we have come back? Probably not but at least it would have given us some faint hope. I used to hate that tendency by Monty when he coached at Furd but I eventually realized that he probably viewed situations like that as practice for when it really mattered.

Other issues I observed:

- poor spacing on the zone defense leaving a wide open middle AND baseline resulting in too many easy layups

- switching to a man to man in the 2nd half at the same time he was subbing Anticevich into the game. ASU immediately forced a switch that left Martin being guarded by Anticevich who he promptly took to the hoop for a foul.

- McNeil getting out on break and taking it to the hoop in a 1 on 3 situation and he missed the shot leaving ASU with an easy rebound.

- I really don't know what the desired outcome of the offense is unless it's either a) 3 pointers while closely guarded with the shot clock winding down or b) wild 1 on 1 forays to the hoop. Assists are rare indeed. Austin being out didn't help but I've seen the same issue in other games.

- saw many times where Kelly posted up and had his man sealed off but rarely got the ball

- saw some fundamental issues when the big man pops out to set a screen on the perimeter. First issue is that the ball handler doesn't always run his man INTO the screener. Second issue is that after setting the "screen", the big often just floats out to the wing instead of rolling to the basket. On one occasion where Kelly did roll to the basket, he turned the wrong way.

All of the above reflects poorly on the coaching staff but I don't know what it's going to take to get Wyking out at this point.

---

A lot of good observations. Your last one, in particular (what happens when a big comes out and sets a screen), has been driving me crazy lately.

MSaviolives said:

---

bearister said:

---

Great points above regarding Vanover's D. Now the question: How many points do you allow to be scored on him before you sit him? Whatever that threshold is, I felt it was painfully exceeded last night to the point where it was demoralizing to our game effort. However, my pain threshold stiffens in those games where his hook and trey are dropping with enough regularity to afford us the luxury of his D.

---

Agree on all this. At the game last night, early on it did seem like he was a substantial reason why ASU missed so many shots, as his mere presence intimidated shooters into missing and he got a block or two. He certainly has skills and confidence for a big man that should serve him well going forward--decent shot, good hands, good court awareness. On defense, he needs to learn to stay straight vertically and stop reaching forward for blocks. Kravish figured this out early and was quite effective. The lack of foot movement is something I would hope is coachable, but perhaps it is not.

---

good post. regarding foot speed being coachable. yes it is, to an extent.
For example, King improved his foot speed, but he was never quick enough to prevent the kinda face up drive situation I referred to.

Part of the improvement is running quickness drills which teach technique (ever seen the ladder thing that players go through?

But the majority of the quickness gain for a player that big/tall is gaining lower body strength

that takes months/years

what can be improved within a season is coaching a player where to be and how to defend certain situations. doesn't make their feet quicker, but the consequences of their slow foot speed are less

UrsaMajor said:

---

Our defensive woes affect our rebounding in another way. Most of the 2nd half, NO ONE attempted to grab an offensive rebound. Instead EVERYONE turned and ran back on defense, ceding the glass to ASU.

---

We have been doing this much of the season. I wonder if the coaches have promoted this approach?

IssyBear said:

---

UrsaMajor said:

---

Our defensive woes affect our rebounding in another way. Most of the 2nd half, NO ONE attempted to grab an offensive rebound. Instead EVERYONE turned and ran back on defense, ceding the glass to ASU.

---

We have been doing this much of the season. I wonder if the coaches have promoted this approach?

---

It must be hard to know what to do, when you are a terrible defensive team, and a bad rebounding team. Given our lack of size up front, there is only so much Cal can do to try and get more rebounds, so it is likely the coaches want all hands on deck as soon as possible when Cal is setting up to play defense. I think it is the right call with the personnel we have and the weaknesses we have, defense being our biggest weakness of all.

oskidunker said:

---

Basically there is no discipline. The players do what they want and you see the results. A few people I know thst are high up in the Alumni assoc that donate alot ,keep assuring me that change will occur soon. I am in the camp that thinks not until March.

Hang in there. I know it is not much fun. Didnt go last night and wont go for Arizona. Have season tickets since 1986. Also not watching on tv. It is just too painful and ruins my day.

---

I agree, although I watched the mess. It's haphazard at best. The thread is classic from unbridled optimism to the inevitable critique of Roman Davis and comparative rebounding analysis.