One way to evaluate a coach

12 Views | 15 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by BearlyCareAnymore
SFCityBear
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Here is how I evaluate a coach. It is anecdotal and based on watching two of my coaches. First was my coach at the old Boys Club on Page street, Harry Pitkoff, a former pro player before the NBA. He had a rule. When the other team scores two buckets in a row, he always called time out. It slows the other team's momentum. He said you can tell a good coach first by whether he calls such a timeout, and second, if his team plays better right after the timeout. In the modern game, the scores are a little higher, not much, but today, Harry might wait and call timeout after the opponent scored 3 buckets in a row. I haven't seen any games in person this season, so does Wyking Jones call a timeout when the opponent scores 2 or 3 buckets? If so, does the team play any better right after the timeout?

You can tell a good coach if something good happens after most of his timeouts. Maybe you don't catch up to another team or win the game, but some problem gets fixed. Maybe a small problem, or a big one, but something good comes out of calling a timeout when things are not going in your favor. It shows that he knows his stuff, what is wrong and a way to fix it, and it shows that he has enough control over the team, because they listened to him and changed something or did what he wanted and it worked.

I was a high school freshman playing on the 110 lb lightweight team which was coached by a guy who played the piano at school events and didn't know a basketball from a beach ball. However we had a few star players and didn't need a coach most of the time. We had traveled to Balboa HS for a pair of games, our game followed by the 120 lb team's game, and they were coached by our Hall of Fame Coach, Ben Neff. I had never seen Neff coach a game, but I had heard plenty of stories about him, because my father and uncle had played for him.

So we were in a tight game, back and forth, and were tied at the end. We played two overtimes, and were still tied. The rules said that now we had to play a sudden death overtime, first team to score 2 points wins. One of our players fouls Balboa's star player in the backcourt, which gave him 2 free throws by the rule in those days. He makes the first one. Ben Neff comes charging out of the stands, tells our coach to go sit down, and he is taking over. He calls time out to hopefully freeze the shooter. Then he grabs Martin, and starts screaming at him about how stupid it was to foul a guy in the backcourt. He screamed so loud and long, that Martin went down to the end of the bench and sat down to sulk. Then Neff pulls some coins from his pocket and starts to diagram a play, in case the shooter missed the free throw. He looks around, and there is no Martin. He sees him down at the end of the bench, and screams at him, "Martin, what the hell do you think you are doing? Get back over here and pay attention to this play." So he puts Martin back in the game, the Balboa star missed the free throw, and even though none of the players had ever played for Neff before, they listened, followed his instructions, and ran a play with a couple of screens, and several passes, which miraculously left our star player, Jackson, wide open under the basket with no one within 10 feet of him, and he laid the ball in, and we won. I knew right then, at age 13, that Ben Neff was a good coach. Another thing that happened was Martin never fouled a guy in the backcourt before he graduated 2 years later.

Now in modern times, they don't have complex plays like we did, where there was not much creativity, and I know Cal hasn't had many close games, but has Wyking Jones ever called a timeout in a tight game and had something good happen like that? You all have seen many of Wyking's Cal games, so maybe you know the answer. In any case, you can get a good idea of whether a guy can coach or not by observing when he calls timeouts, and observing what happens after he does call one.
SFCityBear
BeachedBear
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I posted a comment about this after the ASU game, but to answer your question(s), based on my observation and memory . . .

1. Most of last season and early this season, Jones did not call timeouts, when it was obvious he needed to. However, he has done a much better job the last few games. I'm not sure he's adept at it yet, but he has shown recent improvement.

2. However, the results of the timeouts are usually negative. It actually gives the opposing coach the chance to adapt. And the other teams all seem to adapt better than the Bears. It is rare that we score after a timeout. Most likely the result is a turnover or desperation shot. However, IT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE to stop or slow an opponents momentum and get the players a bit more focused.

3. Not directly asked, but related is half time adjustments. We are very bad in this regard and the opposition always seems to adjust better than we do.

All of this has two components; the coach and the players. The coach needs to know when and what to say, but the players need to know how to incorporate the changes in practice and emotionally. The end result is that it is not working and that ultimately falls on the staff. However, this IS a young team - and more importantly, these guys all come from programs that are not used to losing, so this may be new territory for them focus-wise.
RedlessWardrobe
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SFCityBear said:

Here is how I evaluate a coach. It is anecdotal and based on watching two of my coaches. First was my coach at the old Boys Club on Page street, Harry Pitkoff, a former pro player before the NBA. He had a rule. When the other team scores two buckets in a row, he always called time out.
Can't Do. We'd have no more timeouts left after the first 9 minutes.
KenBurnski
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Lol
SFCityBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear said:

Here is how I evaluate a coach. It is anecdotal and based on watching two of my coaches. First was my coach at the old Boys Club on Page street, Harry Pitkoff, a former pro player before the NBA. He had a rule. When the other team scores two buckets in a row, he always called time out.
Can't Do. We'd have no more timeouts left after the first 9 minutes.
I'd like to see statistics on how many timeouts are called by the coach. Many timeouts are network commercial breaks as you know.

Dick Kuchen was a guy who called way too many timeouts. He'd call so many at the end of games so 2 minutes might seem like half an hour. Ben Braun, near the end of his career, had trouble getting through the first minute of play before calling a timeout, usually to make a substitution. He used to start Wethers, let him play two minutes and yank him. A coach who does that probably shows that his team was not prepared for what they saw when the game started, and that he did not have enough confidence in his players to let them play long enough to even get warmed up. Mike Montgomery was a coach who seemed to have a definite purpose whenever he called timeout. Even the one he called to give Allen Crabbe a shove to wake him up. Ill-advised, but it seemed to work.
SFCityBear
RedlessWardrobe
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SFCityBear, I have no doubt that you know more about coaching than I do, but I would tend to think that time out management is marginal in the overall effectiveness of coaching a game. Lets be realistic. The Cal team we are watching this year has a bad combination of limited talent, limited experience, a size and rebounding deficiency, and dare I say, a coach who I must admit does not appear to be making any progress to offset these issues. Ultimately this will play out either at the end of this season or perhaps one more year.

It is what it is.

UrsaMajor
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SFCity:
Interesting anecdotes. I think that timeouts per se are somewhat epiphenomenal. Evidence of the coach's control and plan. What comes out of a timeout (a good play, a change in defensive tactics, etc.) is far more important. As you have noted elsewhere Pete Newell never called timeouts, and John Wooden rarely.
Yogi58
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SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear said:

Dick Kuchen was a guy who called way too many timeouts. He'd call so many at the end of games so 2 minutes might seem like half an hour. Ben Braun, near the end of his career, had trouble getting through the first minute of play before calling a timeout, usually to make a substitution.


Braun hardly ever called timeouts before the last minute of the first half.
Cal8285
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Yogi Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear said:

Dick Kuchen was a guy who called way too many timeouts. He'd call so many at the end of games so 2 minutes might seem like half an hour. Ben Braun, near the end of his career, had trouble getting through the first minute of play before calling a timeout, usually to make a substitution.


Braun hardly ever called timeouts before the last minute of the first half.
Ah, the Ben Braun Memorial Use-It-Or-Lose-It Timeout, virtually always taken by Braun in the last minute of the first half.
SFCityBear
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Cal8285 said:

Yogi Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear said:

Dick Kuchen was a guy who called way too many timeouts. He'd call so many at the end of games so 2 minutes might seem like half an hour. Ben Braun, near the end of his career, had trouble getting through the first minute of play before calling a timeout, usually to make a substitution.


Braun hardly ever called timeouts before the last minute of the first half.
Ah, the Ben Braun Memorial Use-It-Or-Lose-It Timeout, virtually always taken by Braun in the last minute of the first half.
What I found curious was how Braun spent nearly all of a timeout huddling with his assistants, and then made a dash over to talk to the players for a few seconds before play was to resume.
SFCityBear
UrsaMajor
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Ben was waiting for Cal to have a 3 on 1 fast break going so he could stop it to call time.
CAL4LIFE
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UrsaMajor said:

Ben was waiting for Cal to have a 3 on 1 fast break going so he could stop it to call time.


And during those unnecessary timeouts he would spend most of them apologizing disingenuously to Pasternak for no look pass smashing his face with a Spaulding logo during practice.

Fun times.
socaltownie
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UrsaMajor said:

Ben was waiting for Cal to have a 3 on 1 fast break going so he could stop it to call time.
I SO remember those. I don't know if it happend THAT often but it happened definately more than three times and thus are scarred into our memories.
Civil Bear
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socaltownie said:

UrsaMajor said:

Ben was waiting for Cal to have a 3 on 1 fast break going so he could stop it to call time.
I SO remember those. I don't know if it happend THAT often but it happened definately more than three times and thus are scarred into our memories.

It happened exactly once, but it came at a time when people on the board were questioning his use of his last minute use-it-or-lose-it time outs. You'd have thunk he ate the last cannoli or something.
SFCityBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear, I have no doubt that you know more about coaching than I do, but I would tend to think that time out management is marginal in the overall effectiveness of coaching a game. Lets be realistic. The Cal team we are watching this year has a bad combination of limited talent, limited experience, a size and rebounding deficiency, and dare I say, a coach who I must admit does not appear to be making any progress to offset these issues. Ultimately this will play out either at the end of this season or perhaps one more year.

It is what it is.


Thanks for the compliment, but I never coached except for my intramural team, and all the players on the bench were mad at me for not giving them more minutes. This led me to believe I wasn't a very good coach. Coach is the 2nd hardest job in basketball, with #1 being a referee. I'm just a fan like you, and what we know comes from observation and maybe some playing experience or listening to people who know. If Pete Newell or John Wooden or one of the better coaches I played for said something, I listened.

I understand what you are saying, and I am not holding timeouts, and the way they are managed to be the answer to any of Cal's current problems. All I tried to say is that when a coach calls timeout, and what short term improvement the team makes right after the timeout can be indicative of whether I am watching a good coach or a coach not so skilled at coaching. It wouldn't help much in evaluating a Newell or a Wooden, because they rarely called a timeout.

I do mildly disagree with you on whether "timeout management is marginal in overall effectiveness of coaching a game." In general, that may be mostly right, but a timeout can really be important in a close game, especially at the end of a close game, and there are countless numbers of close games which have been won or lost by what happens in one crucial timeout. I played in many high school games where our coach called a timeout, and after we listened to coach, we hit the floor again with a new idea, a new play, and renewed confidence, and most times it worked. We had the best or second best coach in town. He had the successful seasons to prove it, and we were all convinced that if we did what he said, we could win this game. Sometimes, a particular player was not doing his job. So coach called timeout and called down to the end of the bench for some scrub, "Jones, do you know how to run the wheel? (which was a play we had practiced) "Yes, sir, I think I do," replied Jones. "Then you go in for Smith, and run the wheel," said the coach. Jones runs the wheel to perfection, we get an open shot and score. Usually more than once. Jones sits and watches, and later re-enters the game, hopefully having learned what to do. Keeping his job will depend on it. Smith goes back to the bench, maybe with a new self-confidence, and a team that will have confidence in him if and when he gets to play again.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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BeachedBear said:

I posted a comment about this after the ASU game, but to answer your question(s), based on my observation and memory . . .

1. Most of last season and early this season, Jones did not call timeouts, when it was obvious he needed to. However, he has done a much better job the last few games. I'm not sure he's adept at it yet, but he has shown recent improvement.

2. However, the results of the timeouts are usually negative. It actually gives the opposing coach the chance to adapt. And the other teams all seem to adapt better than the Bears. It is rare that we score after a timeout. Most likely the result is a turnover or desperation shot. However, IT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE to stop or slow an opponents momentum and get the players a bit more focused.

3. Not directly asked, but related is half time adjustments. We are very bad in this regard and the opposition always seems to adjust better than we do.

All of this has two components; the coach and the players. The coach needs to know when and what to say, but the players need to know how to incorporate the changes in practice and emotionally. The end result is that it is not working and that ultimately falls on the staff. However, this IS a young team - and more importantly, these guys all come from programs that are not used to losing, so this may be new territory for them focus-wise.
Thanks for the answers. It doesn't paint a pretty picture. I think what I would be looking for, since most of Jones' timeouts are likely called when Cal is behind, that there might be some defensive tweaks. Defense is what Cal does worst, so I'd like to see if Cal could shut down or slow an opposing player who has a hot hand, or if we are playing zone, does Cal close down an area that Cal is often leaving open?
SFCityBear
BearlyCareAnymore
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Civil Bear said:

socaltownie said:

UrsaMajor said:

Ben was waiting for Cal to have a 3 on 1 fast break going so he could stop it to call time.
I SO remember those. I don't know if it happend THAT often but it happened definately more than three times and thus are scarred into our memories.

It happened exactly once, but it came at a time when people on the board were questioning his use of his last minute use-it-or-lose-it time outs. You'd have thunk he ate the last cannoli or something.
What I thought was funny was at the height of the criticism of his using these time outs, Monty was doing the color of one of our games. Braun used the use it or lose it time out and Monty said very off hand like he felt he was being Captain Obvious "of course you will always use that time out in this situation".

(and by the way, yes he did one time call it on a 3 on 1 break. It was stupid. He blew it. He'd probably admit he blew it.)

There was a ton of stuff Braun deserved criticism for, but there was stuff that he would do that a large majority of coaches do that would draw the ire of posters. For a while I remember there was the "he is an idiot for sitting guys who get 2 fouls early in the first half" arguments.
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