What would positive thinking do for this program?

I have been "on the fence" in regards to firing the coach.

May I say, that I agree anyone on this board has the right to the opinion on whether the coach should be or should not be fired.

Just hope that those on the critical side keep their comments objective with specific content, and respectful as well. While most do, there have been a few that were out of line. Perhaps this is what SFCB is referring to.

oskidunker said:

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It's a public forum. People have the right to express their opinions. Although I don't agree with anything you have said, I certainly respect your opinion. Don't take it personally. Accepting poor performance does not help the program. The attendance Is down about 2000 per game this year. If Jones is retained it will go down 2,000 more. Don't you care about the loss of revenue for Cal? I suppose you could be mad at the 4000 people who vote with their wallets.

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I agree with all this, except that I'd say of course I care about the loss of revenue. With title IX and scholarship limitations now, we have only two programs who can pay for themselves, and I'd feel very sad if it went down to just one. And I'm not mad at anybody, least of all Cal fans who choose to attend or stay home.

Whether he deserves to be fired or not there is no coach in the history of NCAA Div. 1 basketball that has kept his job with the PAC 12 record he is going to have after two years. I invite some trivia fiend to do some digging and disprove my statement. And BTW, SFCB is in the top 1% of those with hoop knowledge on this board.

SFCityBear said:

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oskidunker said:

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It's a public forum. People have the right to express their opinions. Although I don't agree with anything you have said, I certainly respect your opinion. Don't take it personally. Accepting poor performance does not help the program. The attendance Is down about 2000 per game this year. If Jones is retained it will go down 2,000 more. Don't you care about the loss of revenue for Cal? I suppose you could be mad at the 4000 people who vote with their wallets.

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I agree with all this, except that I'd say of course I care about the loss of revenue. With title IX and scholarship limitations now, we have only two programs who can pay for themselves, and I'd feel very sad if it went down to just one. And I'm not mad at anybody, least of all Cal fans who choose to attend or stay home.

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I understand with your frustration of those complaining incessantly SFCityBear. But I think it is fair to say that there are big problems with the program and it needs to be righted. The question becomes is WJ the cause or are the limited # of quality players the cause? Fair question. For a long time in WJ"s tenure there were very few signs of improvement, but of late the players he has are playing better. It may be them, but it is probably WJ. This presents some very grave difficulties and I will leave the dollars aspect of this alone.

You have a 5 year contract, and two years in we are at the bottom of not only P5 conferences in almost every measure and also the bottom of a very weak Pac 12 with no wins. Now, with this in mind what worries me if we give it one more year at very least we could be in the same place we are today one year down the road, if WJ is, in fact, most of the cause due to his inexperience. We just may not know that answer at this point.

So I ask you, can Cal BB take that chance? As much as I see the blame maybe not all on WJ, I do not see we can afford to roll the dice on one more year. I take it you see differently. Both sides are fair and one is probably not all right or wrong, but there could be dire consequences for Cal BB if either of us are wrong. I just think you must look at WJ's two year body of work and make the call. I suspect with that we differ. Now that was not ugly, was it?

That is the best post I've seen on the coaching issue of this team in the last year and a half. I don't think anybody could have said it better.

SFCityBear said:

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Just this. What is the purpose of the daily never ending bashing of this coach, never seeing anything positive in the man or the team's play? What do you hope to achieve, and how will you achieve it? Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

I assume you are not deep-pocket Cal basketball donors, or you would make a simple phone call to the AD and tell him your opinion of Mr. Jones, and how you plan to remove your support if he is not fired ASAP.

Or are you trying to manipulate all of us into agreement with you, and make us cease watching or be interested in Cal basketball as long as the coach is here, make us stay away from games, and thereby get the AD and Admin to fire the coach based on the poor attendance? If that is the purpose, then I resent it. It is bashing the coach, which bashes Cal, and bashes me and maybe some of the rest of us who are loyal to Cal, win or lose.

Or is the purpose just to vent, complain in public about nothing you or we can do anything about?

I just don't get it.

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With all due respect, I understand your frustrations with the constant berating but I specifically recall you repeatedly talking trash about Cuonzo's offense for several years....you have also expressed your disdain for Wyking's defense over and over....What is the difference? *****in is *****in....Everyone can take their shots here including you.....

It's a message board.

What do u expect

SFCityBear said:

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Or is the purpose just to vent, complain in public about nothing you or we can do anything about?

I just don't get it.

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The internet brings out the worst in people.
It also brings together the worst of people.

It's an anonymous place where people are free to be jerks to anyone, rarely with repercussions.

Like Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar and the trolling of our elections, Bear Insider enables nastiness and the trolling of our sturdy golden bears. Misinformation and personal attacks pass as free speech, as the enablers rationalize away their negative impact on the world.

Personally, I try to keep things positive and back my opinions up with actual facts, to make watching Cal sports more fun for fellow fans. Many others here do the same. It's just much easier for the trolls to vent their negativity with repetitive, narrow-minded messages, that make themselves feel important and strong.

SFCityBear said:

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Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

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100% there are multiple people in the AD that monitor these message boards. While the opinions here are extreme, they are a barometer of how the fan base feels (good or bad).

The criticism is more than fair and if Cal cares about the future of the program, they will cut their losses and find a leader who will take us to the next level.

SFCityBear said:

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Just this. What is the purpose of the daily never ending bashing of this coach, never seeing anything positive in the man or the team's play? What do you hope to achieve, and how will you achieve it? Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

I assume you are not deep-pocket Cal basketball donors, or you would make a simple phone call to the AD and tell him your opinion of Mr. Jones, and how you plan to remove your support if he is not fired ASAP.

Or are you trying to manipulate all of us into agreement with you, and make us cease watching or be interested in Cal basketball as long as the coach is here, make us stay away from games, and thereby get the AD and Admin to fire the coach based on the poor attendance? If that is the purpose, then I resent it. It is bashing the coach, which bashes Cal, and bashes me and maybe some of the rest of us who are loyal to Cal, win or lose.

Or is the purpose just to vent, complain in public about nothing you or we can do anything about?

I just don't get it.

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1. Start with one point - personally insulting the man is out of line. It also is counterproductive to those that want to see him gone. Frankly, there was a good portion of the season where people who would normally be critical were defending him against personal attacks.

2. I'll bottom line this for you. The large majority of people think we've reached the point where it is obvious he not only needs to go, it would be complete disaster if he doesn't. We've lived through similar times like the Holmoe era when Cal waited way too long. Cal seems to respond to only two things. Players tanking en masse or near universal white hot anger from the fan base. Because of this, every time you post your long defenses of him, people will respond.

I have to also agree with the other poster that you were very persistent in your criticism of Cuonzo, so maybe you should ask yourself why you were that way and it would answer your question about nega Wykings

The powers that be decided to cancel 60 's rock and have a special treat for you tonight. I had to look it up as I had no idea what K pop was. Some younger alumni may know but probably not what sfcitynwould like. They think younger people are the ones still going to the games.ahahahahahhaasaa. Enjoy!

panda said:

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1) This is a message board, people can and should be able to say whatever they want.

2) By posting about how Wyking needs to be gone everyday, it does send a message that the majority of us fans are upset with the direction the team has gone under him.

3) Who cares if we are not all big donors. We are all fans of this team and want to see improvement. Our opinions matter when it comes to the lack of attendance at games.

4) Most if not all of the donors I know of are refusing to donate anymore and are debating cancelling their season passes FWIW.

5) But you're right. If we want to be more effective in getting the message across, I encourage everyone who wants to see this team improve by firing of Wyking to email jim.knowlton@berkeley.edu and jay.john@berkeley.edu. Let them hear directly from us fans.

Seriously don't get this blind loyalty mentality some of you have here. We are heading towards being the worst Cal basketball team and one of the worst Pac12 teams of all time and you still want to defend Wyking? Do you want Cal to win? You can still love the program and want to see the coach be fired for BAAAAAD performance yaknow...

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Thanks for taking the time to write this response.

1) I absolutely agree, as long as we post within the BI rules.

2) I agree, except that I assume that by the "majority of us Cal fans" you mean those fans who post here, which is only a fraction of all Cal fans I personally would be hesitant to claim that the majority of all Cal fans want him fired. Could be true, but I haven't seen evidence.

3) I agree.

4) Thanks for this info.

5) Yours is the only reply so far that understands and answers what I was asking. I'm an engineer. I design things, make things, build things. If I have problem, I would rather do something about it, solve it, fix it, and not just constantly complain about it. You at least are proposing a way to get the thing done which you want, which is fire coach Jones. Send e-mails to the AD and Jay John, and let's see what happens.

I don't feel I have any blind loyalty to Cal, but I have enough respect for Cal and its employees not to personally bash them in public. I am not defending Wyking, only Wyking's right to be respected. He is doing the best he thinks he can. His performance will be judged. I personally do not feel qualified to judge him, as a coach, enough to demand that he lose his job. I know a little bit about basketball, but only as a player and a fan. I need to see the team practice, before I can judge if the coach is incompetent, or the players are too ego -driven or stubborn to listen, or just not very good players. I don't know any of that.

I will tell you this: Wyking Jones is not coaching a PAC12 team. He is coaching a team of PAC12 freshmen and sophomores plus one junior. If this were 1959 when I went to Cal as a freshman, those freshmen would have been playing on the Cal Frosh team, and the sophs would have been playing on the Cal JV team, because none of them would have been good enough to play on the Cal Varsity. I am not comparing the skills of today's players with those of 1959. I am comparing the age and experience of today's team's players with the players on the Cal teams of 1959. The players that Jones has are not ready for prime time PAC12 play. None of them.

Look at good teams. Washington is the best in the PAC12. They have 4 seniors and 2 juniors in the rotation. Gonzaga is maybe the best in the West, and they have 3 seniors and 2 juniors in the rotation. In the East, Virginia has a senior and 3 juniors in the rotation, and Villanova has 3 seniors in the rotation.

A few PAC12 teams: Oregon, 2 seniors and one junior Utah, the same. USC, 3 seniors 2 juniors. Colorado one senior and 2 juniors. Arizona 2 seniors, 2 juniors, ASU one senior, one junior.

Cal competed very well against UCLA, and UCLA is similar to Cal, with only one junior in the rotation. That should be a close game and was. The difference between our young players and UCLA's is they are almost all top 100 recruits. Cal has only one top 100 recruit. Based on the talent level, I'd have to say then that UCLA's coaching was worse than Cal's.

I am on the fence with Jones. I may join you, but for me the evidence would have to be a lot stronger than wins and losses with a nearly an all-rookie team. There were a few times when Newell started a sophomore (freshmen were ineligible). Larry Friend, a future Cal Al All-American, Earl Robinson, an all conference guard, Bill McClintock, a 24 year-old soph. Youth must be served, but not always in college basketball. In college, usually freshmen and sophomore players don't start. Wyking Jones had no choice. He has to start them, and live with the mistakes young players make. If there is dissension on the team, or if he is caught paying players, then I say fire him immediately. Otherwise, I'm on the fence.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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I have been "on the fence" in regards to firing the coach.

May I say, that I agree anyone on this board has the right to the opinion on whether the coach should be or should not be fired.

Just hope that those on the critical side keep their comments objective with specific content, and respectful as well. While most do, there have been a few that were out of line. Perhaps this is what SFCB is referring to.

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You are right. That is some of it, and the other part was asking what is writing comments on a blog going to do to advance their cause of firing the man? I honestly could not think of a reason for it, other than to just vent. One reply here says that employees of the AD read these blogs to judge the feelings of the few fans who post here, and that sounds like a reasonable reason to post the negative or critical comments.

I do not like the personal ones. I do remember being critical of posts that were too hard on a Cal player, or ridiculing him, because I felt he or his family might be reading these blogs.

UCBerkGrad said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

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100% there are multiple people in the AD that monitor these message boards. While the opinions here are extreme, they are a barometer of how the fan base feels (good or bad).

The criticism is more than fair and if Cal cares about the future of the program, they will cut their losses and find a leader who will take us to the next level.

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That I did not know. That makes it a reasonable plan to post criticism if you want the AD to hear about it. How effective it is we will find out.

I have seen, with my own eyes, screens on BI in the AD offices at Haas.

WJ was hired into an extremely challenging situation. He is a first-time head coach who inherited an empty roster and has had to build it from scratch. The current roster is perhaps not surprisingly not well balanced by position, which exasperates the problems with the youth and inexperience. The young players WJ recruited could not benefit from watching and practicing against older, more experienced team mates. As expected, these young players have a lot to learn. The jump from high school to D1 college is huge. Bit by bit, the team has improved in offense and defense, and games have become more competitive. As the team gets better at doing some things, fewer areas are in need improvement and so the focus can be narrowed in practice to fewer areas that need to be improved - defending three point shooters is an example of a problem that still needs to be addressed - making it possible for progress move more quickly. Whether WJ is the coach or not next year, we should be better with more experienced players and another solid recruiting class. I think it would be reasonable to give WJ one more year to show progress in the win column.

Here we go again. The recruiting class is not stellar, it is 3 star. Thorpe is coming off an injury and will not be a rim protector.Fine, keep Jones another year. Let me know how that works out. You are saying on one hand that the problems are due to freshman yet you are counting on new freshman making an impact. There has been no improvement this year in defense, offensive scheme or wins and losses and we had two big men last year.

A few games have been closer. Close does not count.lets see how close the game is tonight and on the road at Arizona's and Stanford.

I still think if we end up winless in league and retain Jones, we will lose players.players want to play on a winning team and get help getting to the next level. Ain't happening here.

oskidunker said:

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Here we go again. The recruiting class is not stellar, it is 3 star. Thorpe is coming off an injury and will not be a rim protector.Fine, keep Jones another year. Let me know how that works out. You are saying on one hand that the problems are due to freshman yet you are counting on new freshman making an impact. There has been no improvement this year in defense, offensive scheme or wins and losses and we had two big men last year.

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No, that's not what I was trying to say. This year's sophomores and freshmen will be juniors and sophomores next year, PLUS we will have a solid class of freshmen to provide more depth. I'm not saying that we will depend on the freshmen to have much impact except to provide depth and some quality minutes in games.

UCBerkGrad said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

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100% there are multiple people in the AD that monitor these message boards. While the opinions here are extreme, they are a barometer of how the fan base feels (good or bad).

The criticism is more than fair and if Cal cares about the future of the program, they will cut their losses and find a leader who will take us to the next level.

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Looks like they are posting as well as reading.

bearmanpg said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Just this. What is the purpose of the daily never ending bashing of this coach, never seeing anything positive in the man or the team's play? What do you hope to achieve, and how will you achieve it? Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

I assume you are not deep-pocket Cal basketball donors, or you would make a simple phone call to the AD and tell him your opinion of Mr. Jones, and how you plan to remove your support if he is not fired ASAP.

Or are you trying to manipulate all of us into agreement with you, and make us cease watching or be interested in Cal basketball as long as the coach is here, make us stay away from games, and thereby get the AD and Admin to fire the coach based on the poor attendance? If that is the purpose, then I resent it. It is bashing the coach, which bashes Cal, and bashes me and maybe some of the rest of us who are loyal to Cal, win or lose.

Or is the purpose just to vent, complain in public about nothing you or we can do anything about?

I just don't get it.

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With all due respect, I understand your frustrations with the constant berating but I specifically recall you repeatedly talking trash about Cuonzo's offense for several years....you have also expressed your disdain for Wyking's defense over and over....What is the difference? *****in is *****in....Everyone can take their shots here including you..

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I criticized the strategies or tactics which the Cal teams appear to be using under both coaches. I did it more for Cuonzo because he was a very experienced, successful and respected coach prior to coming to Cal, and he inherited much better personnel than Wyking did, and he has been here twice as long as Wyking has.

That was criticism of a coach's plan or what he was teaching, not criticism of a person. Not talking trash, which is to personally insult someone and say things which are often untrue about the person. And I never called for Cuonzo to be fired, not ever.

I have criticized Wyking's plans and the way his team looks on the court. That is not expressing "disdain" because disdain is usually applied to persons It is the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt. Synonyms are derision contempt, scorn, disrespect. Nothing wrong with Wyking's ideas, except that his personnel was experienced enough or good enough to implement them. He made some wrong decisions, but that is just my opinion. I didn't like the Winston-McCullogh thing. Nothing illegal about it. I've lost some respect for him, but not enough to make me want him fired.

I will take shots at the coaches' plans or methods or results or whatever, but I try not to disrespect them or insult them as persons. After they leave Cal, I am more apt to do that, such as the way Cuonzo left Cal in a big hole while he chased after the gold. Threw in the towel in the Baskersfield game. Cuonzo's atttude is a lot of what is wrong with college basketball.

OaktownBear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Just this. What is the purpose of the daily never ending bashing of this coach, never seeing anything positive in the man or the team's play? What do you hope to achieve, and how will you achieve it? Do you somehow expect to influence the AD or the Admin directly? Do you really think they read what we write here?

I assume you are not deep-pocket Cal basketball donors, or you would make a simple phone call to the AD and tell him your opinion of Mr. Jones, and how you plan to remove your support if he is not fired ASAP.

Or are you trying to manipulate all of us into agreement with you, and make us cease watching or be interested in Cal basketball as long as the coach is here, make us stay away from games, and thereby get the AD and Admin to fire the coach based on the poor attendance? If that is the purpose, then I resent it. It is bashing the coach, which bashes Cal, and bashes me and maybe some of the rest of us who are loyal to Cal, win or lose.

Or is the purpose just to vent, complain in public about nothing you or we can do anything about?

I just don't get it.

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1. Start with one point - personally insulting the man is out of line. It also is counterproductive to those that want to see him gone. Frankly, there was a good portion of the season where people who would normally be critical were defending him against personal attacks.

2. I'll bottom line this for you. The large majority of people think we've reached the point where it is obvious he not only needs to go, it would be complete disaster if he doesn't. We've lived through similar times like the Holmoe era when Cal waited way too long. Cal seems to respond to only two things. Players tanking en masse or near universal white hot anger from the fan base. Because of this, every time you post your long defenses of him, people will respond.

I have to also agree with the other poster that you were very persistent in your criticism of Cuonzo, so maybe you should ask yourself why you were that way and it would answer your question about nega Wykings

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Let me bottom line it for you. How many posters post on the basketball forum and blame Cal's lack of success entirely on one man, Wyking Jones? 25? 50? 100? (that would be a stretch) That is not a majority of fans who post on the BI or who have season tickets, let alone be a "majority of people". Drop in the bucket. The ones who post wanting him fired vastly outnumber the ones who have posted that they don't want him to be fired, which I can count on the fingers of one hand, I'll give you that.

My criticism was not of Cuonzo while he was here. I never heard him utter the words he gave to his players. I criticized the way the team looked and some of what he said he was telling them to do. I never criticized the person, only his methods. I have never defended Wyking Jones methods or ideas, except mostly for the recent improved play. I vigorously defend Wyking Jones as a person, the head of the Cal program, the coach of the young men in his care. He deserves that respect, just as Counzo did, and I tried to give that to them in my posts. I tire of people telling me or others what we should think or do.

No one is telling you what to do. Do what you think is best.

KenBurnski said:

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Elite trolling.

"The players need to learn" . . . [lists basic skills a coach should teach].

Acts dumbfounded and annoyed when posters question the guy responsible for teaching the skills he cites as lacking.

Elite

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That's rich. We Cal alums are all elites. Except in a room full of Stanford or Harvard or Yale alums. Then we are peons (to them) Friend of mine at Cal got a Masters later at Yale, and then went to SF State Film school for another degree. I asked him how did State compare to Cal, and he replied that he always thought there should be schools for the masses.

I ask a question about what the purpose is to repeatedly ask for a coach to be fired on a blog. I already know why they want the coach fired. His team of young kids loses games, and they don't like it. I understand and sympathize with that.

I got a couple of good responses. One was that the AD employees were reading the BI and that might reach the ears of the AD himself and get Jones fired. Another was that e-mails to the AD might have more effect.

Your response is to call me a troll and elite. I was not trolling or trying to start the fire Jones argument all over again. That is over and decided. If one guy wants Trump impeached or another guy wants Obama impeached, their minds are made up and nothing I can say would change the mind of either of them.

I am not "dumbfounded and annoyed" by posters questioning the coach. I have questioned several of Wyking Jones' decisions for two seasons now on many occasions, but I guessed you missed all that. I refuse to blame Jones for the players not "learning skills" because I haven't been going to practices, so I can't see what he is asking them to learn, if anything. Some players are getting better. And I refuse to blame Jones this early in his players' college careers for them not learning the skills I'd like to see. It takes a year or two at the bare minimum to see evidence in a game. Montgomery was a helluva coach, and several of his players took a year or more to improve. Richard Solomon was really raw, and did not improve until most of the way through his junior season. As a senior he finally reached his potential. Some players, even good players never improve.

What I am maybe not "dumbfounded and annoyed with' but rather disappointed and sad about is how many Cal fans relish attacking and insulting other Cal fans, simply for disagreeing or questioning their opinion. Hopefully one day we will get the 5 players on the floor to play together, even if we can't get their rooting section to agree on much of anything.

oskidunker said:

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No one is telling you what to do. Do what you think is best.

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Not talking about you. It was in response to Oaktown. I appreciated your earlier post, and I sympathize with you.

I know one thing. Reading the same posters demanding the coach be fired for the 87th time and relentlessly telling us that Cal is the worst power 5 basketball program in the history of forever makes the atmosphere so tedious that I don't spend much time on the basketball boards these days. It may be true, but you can beat a dead horse into the ground. It's just not a very pleasant experience around here right now.

fat_slice said:

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What would positive thinking do for this program?

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A lot. I don't know if the team would get any better, but I think it would be a happier place to be. However some fans want Cal to crush every opponent into sand, and they will never be happy.. True in most sports.

Quote:

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We are heading towards being the worst Cal basketball team and one of the worst Pac12 teams of all time ...

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Let me fix this for you:

We are heading towards being the worst Cal basketball team and one of the worst Power 5 teams of all time....

Pass the ball around the perimeter until the clock winds down an take a contested shot. No interior passing once again no plan. Hard to watch. Glad I am not there. Sickening.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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I know one thing. Reading the same posters demanding the coach be fired for the 87th time and relentlessly telling us that Cal is the worst power 5 basketball program in the history of forever makes the atmosphere so tedious that I don't spend much time on the basketball boards these days. It may be true, but you can beat a dead horse into the ground. It's just not a very pleasant experience around here right now.

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Thanks for this. i agree. I guess my spending so much time here makes me an addict, doing something I know is bad for me, over and over, never being happy while here. How do you stay away?

Maybe we could meet at the Bullshippers in John Day and discuss, If I ever get up to Eastern Oregon again. Nice country.