OK. and this doesn't need to be a place for the "fire WJ" conversations which we have PLENTY of.

If we assume this is a three year process (at least) to turn things around from the hole that CM dug what are the REALISTIC expectations for next year. And remember, you are almost forced to extend WJ after next year because it is so rare for a P5 coach to have less than 4 years on their deal or else they are open to negative recruiting ("Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there. Sign with us.")

To me it would be getting to .500....and getting at LEAST 8 wins in conference to get the renewal.

And the question that has to be asked - is that realistic? WHat is the minimum performance to extend?

. 0-14 this year and 22 consecutive loses against conference opponents.

. Worst ever in the history of major college basketball according to many national publications.

. Losing to lesser opponents like Seattle (currently winless in a lesser conference), Chimanade, a non-scholarship school, a college, etc. often by double digits.

. Poor coaching. Yes, no reason to detail the obvious.

. Horrible last year. Even worse this year (hard to believe that is possible).

. Poor recruiting (9th in the Pac-12 last year, 9th in the Pac-12 this year). So, the future is NOT bright.

. Poor player retention.

. Poor handling of situations (Cal hero Theo Robertson being forced out, Charlie Moore (top scorer two years ago) transferring, Colman (top scorer last year) being forced out, best signed recruit going elsewhere, two players forced out 10 months after being given a four year scholarship, Branden Chaca being forced out, etc. etc. and all of this in less than two years).

What other evidence does Knowlton need?

Go Bears!

calbear80 said:

---

. 0-14 this year and 22 consecutive loses against conference opponents.

. Worst ever in the history of major college basketball according to many national publications.

. Poor recruiting (9th in the Pac-12 last year, 9th in the Pac-12 this year. So, the future is bleak.

.

---

cal80.

I get that this is your image but honestly we know these numbers. They are bleak. I am probably cheering with you at the presser if it happens in March to announce the resignation.

but this isn't the thread or the place.

For the record, I do not repeat the same numbers.

Earlier, I said 0-5.
Then, I said 0-6
Later, I said 0-7
.
.
.
. Before the last game, I said 0-13.
. Now, it is 0-14.

Blame the coach for the numbers changing for worse and worse after every game.

Go Bears!

Wyking won't be extended, therefore can't answer your question. Irrelevant.

CB80, yes, we know, you want the coach removed. Many here agree with you and some don't. That's not the point anymore. Just hoping that you can PLEASE come up with something new. It has gotten SO OLD.

oskidunker said:

---

Wyking won't be extended, therefore can't answer your question. Irrelevant.

---

Do you know that for a fact? From a reliable source? Please share what you can to mend the pain the loyal Cal fans feel.

Go Bears!

Educated guess and talk with a major donor

calbear80 said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Wyking won't be extended, therefore can't answer your question. Irrelevant.

---

Do you know that for a fact? From a reliable source? Please share what you can to mend the pain the loyal Cal fans feel.

Go Bears!

---

"Extended" and "retained" on an existing contract are two different things. Obviously, he won't be "extended" (meaning adding additional years to the 5 year deal). Knowlton could decide to retain him for another year, that's what all the heated discussions are about.

I'm leaning towards Knowlton recognizing he has to make the change. I base this on watching the players becoming frustrated. They all came from winning programs, but there's no light at the end of this tunnel. There were a few games where they played somewhat better, and lost a few close games, but they've now resigned themselves to what will be a winless league year. No way do they get close to 8 league wins next year, this is the time if donors get on board with the replacement costs.
But I also hope if Knowlton does pull the trigger, it will be done swiftly with the replacement on board within days after Las Vegas. I'm hoping the vetting and search is happening right now privately behind the scenes. A negotiated deal to make this happen quickly with a viable candidate who has had his agent already reach out and who wants the job with a winning resume as a HC elsewhere. Likely mid-major obviously.
One can hope.
But, Cal fans suffer, and endure.

socaltownie said:

---

OK. and this doesn't need to be a place for the "fire WJ" conversations which we have PLENTY of.

If we assume this is a three year process (at least) to turn things around from the hole that CM dug what are the REALISTIC expectations for next year. And remember, you are almost forced to extend WJ after next year because it is so rare for a P5 coach to have less than 4 years on their deal or else they are open to negative recruiting ("Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there. Sign with us.")

To me it would be getting to .500....and getting at LEAST 8 wins in conference to get the renewal.

And the question that has to be asked - is that realistic? WHat is the minimum performance to extend?

---

We extended Sonny, and a year later, he was fired. Extending doesn't stop the "Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there" problem, we'll have that problem with Wyking no matter what unless he really gets us improving, so I don't think we're forced into an extension after next year if the AD wants to keep him.

IF (big IF, but IF) Wyking is still here next year, I think 6-12 in conference buys him one more year, who knows, after 0-18, maybe even 5-13 or even 4-14 would get another year, those are both big improvements over 0-18 (overall record needed depends on the specifics of the OOC schedule, I don't know what that is, but conference record is more relevant). 6-12 or better doesn't necessarily mean an extension, but with two years remaining and the reality that guys get fired even after an extension, I don't think we're forced to an extension.

Is 6-12 realistic? It is probably the top end of realistic (while another 0-18 is the bottom of realistic), but it is not crazy absurd.

you need seniors to win games.

To calbear80: I've read a fairly random sample of your more than 4000 points. You are,
indeed, passionate and knowledgeable about CAL, but also soccer etc. etc.

I used to think (don't know why really) that in seeing our of those different countries..you
were on business. But NO, you have the means, energy and desire to visit new places.
Not asking you to follow Shocky's lead and post some photos for us poor plebs. Actually,
I withdraw any mention of S....whatever.

I haven't done anything fancy like Text Mining in SAS or R (R is much cheaper....like free).
But, unless you can show me otherwise, my working hypothesis your comments on WJ are
quite dissimilar to your other posts....out of character.

I was very supportive of hiring of Coach Martin, Coach Montgomery and Coach Tedford. I was very supportive of each of them throughout their tenures at Cal (both with my donations and my posts).

Initially, I was supportive of hiring of Coach Dykes until he hired Andy Buh as DC and went 1-11 in his first season with a historically bad defense. That is when I started a thread calling for firing of Sonny and Andy. So, my calling for firing a Cal coach who loses a lot is nothing new.

The reality is if a coach starts with a horrible losing record in his first year, it is very difficult to turn things around. When the current MBB coach started his first season with a 2-17 Pac-12 record, it considerably impacted his chances of good recruiting and subsequent success.

Coach Martin, Coach Montgomery, Coach Dykes and Coach Tedford all came to Cal with the proven background, experience and track record which indicated they had a good chance of success at Cal. Unfortunately, the current MBB coach did not have the same.

When Coach Martin decided to leave for Missouri, I was hoping we hire Coach Travis DeCuire from Montana (Coach Montgomery's top assistant who by then had three years of successful head coaching experience at Montana) or the guy from Nevada or the guy from St. Mary's. The second two may or may not have been really interested in Cal or within our budget. Coach Travis DeCuire was interested in Cal and was well within our budget. Unfortunately, AD Mike Williams decided to go in a different direction.

When the current coach was hired back in the Spring of 2017, some national publications ranked it as the worst hire in major college basketball, even lower than the coach Akron Zips hired (yes, lower than Akron Zips(. Unfortunately, they have proven to be right.

So, unfortunately, the current horrible losing situation with the Cal MBB is not a surprise. That is why I think we need a change to turn things around.

Go Bears!

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/Some-of-Cal-s-biggest-donors-are-furious-at-11042737.php

Cal8285 said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

OK. and this doesn't need to be a place for the "fire WJ" conversations which we have PLENTY of.

If we assume this is a three year process (at least) to turn things around from the hole that CM dug what are the REALISTIC expectations for next year. And remember, you are almost forced to extend WJ after next year because it is so rare for a P5 coach to have less than 4 years on their deal or else they are open to negative recruiting ("Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there. Sign with us.")

To me it would be getting to .500....and getting at LEAST 8 wins in conference to get the renewal.

And the question that has to be asked - is that realistic? WHat is the minimum performance to extend?

---

We extended Sonny, and a year later, he was fired. Extending doesn't stop the "Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there" problem, we'll have that problem with Wyking no matter what unless he really gets us improving, so I don't think we're forced into an extension after next year if the AD wants to keep him.

IF (big IF, but IF) Wyking is still here next year, I think 6-12 in conference buys him one more year, who knows, after 0-18, maybe even 5-13 or even 4-14 would get another year, those are both big improvements over 0-18 (overall record needed depends on the specifics of the OOC schedule, I don't know what that is, but conference record is more relevant). 6-12 or better doesn't necessarily mean an extension, but with two years remaining and the reality that guys get fired even after an extension, I don't think we're forced to an extension.

Is 6-12 realistic? It is probably the top end of realistic (while another 0-18 is the bottom of realistic), but it is not crazy absurd.

---

I agree with socaltownie that, in the event WJ were to be retained, the benchmarks for next year would be something like .500 overall and 7-8 wins in conference. Are those achievable? Maybe. Three months ago, I believe I said they were quite realistic, so they still should be.

What will be interesting and may be a deciding factor in a few weeks, will be the morale of the players. Are almost all of them optimistic about staying here and winning next year?. I'm not sure that that will be the case, but, in my mind, it is the only thing that could possibly save WJ's job. If Knowlton is still considering retention, I hope he is tuned into player morale. In fact, if he's planning on making a change, I STILL hope he is tuned into player morale and makes an effort to retain as many of the PLAYERS as possible.

socaltownie said:

---

OK. and this doesn't need to be a place for the "fire WJ" conversations which we have PLENTY of.

If we assume this is a three year process (at least) to turn things around from the hole that CM dug what are the REALISTIC expectations for next year. And remember, you are almost forced to extend WJ after next year because it is so rare for a P5 coach to have less than 4 years on their deal or else they are open to negative recruiting ("Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there. Sign with us.")

To me it would be getting to .500....and getting at LEAST 8 wins in conference to get the renewal.

And the question that has to be asked - is that realistic? WHat is the minimum performance to extend?

---

.500 in conference and .500+ in non-conference would be spectacular.
I also think we need to consider the evolving Fall 2019 roster.

Go Bears and thrive!

oskidunker said:

---

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/Some-of-Cal-s-biggest-donors-are-furious-at-11042737.php

---

Thank you oskidunker for linking this article.

Can you please see if you can link the article from the national publications which ranked the hiring of the current MBB coach as the worst hire in major college basketball, even lower than the coach hired by Akron Zips?

Go Bears!

socaltownie said:

---

OK. and this doesn't need to be a place for the "fire WJ" conversations which we have PLENTY of.

If we assume this is a three year process (at least) to turn things around from the hole that CM dug what are the REALISTIC expectations for next year. And remember, you are almost forced to extend WJ after next year because it is so rare for a P5 coach to have less than 4 years on their deal or else they are open to negative recruiting ("Coach X at school Y ain't going to be there. Sign with us.")

To me it would be getting to .500....and getting at LEAST 8 wins in conference to get the renewal.

And the question that has to be asked - is that realistic? WHat is the minimum performance to extend?

---

I didn't think the "don't fire him" guys were a "crowd" I thought there were only one and a half of us, with me being the half. BTW, I think we are the oldest of the two "crowds", by far. (Actually, there may be lots of "halfs," those who have not made up their minds. They are just not posting.)

RedlessWardrobe said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

calbear80 said:

---

. 0-14 this year and 22 consecutive loses against conference opponents.

. Worst ever in the history of major college basketball according to many national publications.

. Poor recruiting (9th in the Pac-12 last year, 9th in the Pac-12 this year. So, the future is bleak.

.

---

cal80.

I get that this is your image but honestly we know these numbers. They are bleak. I am probably cheering with you at the presser if it happens in March to announce the resignation.

but this isn't the thread or the place.

---

SoCal, haven't you noticed the last few months? Reciting our record over and over again, repeating the same numbers and statements is what calbear80 likes to do.

---

He has to because incredibly, this forum has a bunch of people wanting to retain a failed coach. So I applaud his relentless message because you folks clearly haven't been paying attention.

I am somewhat conflicted about whether we should keep WJ or move on to someone else, but I do believe that given where the program was when CM left, it was going to be a 3 year or more project to rebuild the program unless we could bring in some very good junior college players ready to contribute and provide some leadership and stability. I believe that no matter who was coaching the team during the rebuilding period, things would be ugly for a while.

You have to be kidding.

Not kidding. I don't believe there is enough information on which to base a rational decision. It's convenient and perhaps emotionally satisfying to blame the coaching but not really a justifiable conclusion given the history and other circumstances like limited pool of academically qualified student athletes to recruit.

GoCal80 said:

---

Not kidding. I don't believe there is enough information on which to base a rational decision. It's convenient and perhaps emotionally satisfying to blame the coaching but not really a justifiable conclusion given the history and other circumstances like limited pool of academically qualified student athletes to recruit.

---

Totally agree with you - and as one of the donor's and also one who follows the program very closely, its important to objectively understand how deep the hole that WJ inherited.
To be clear - I am not saying this staff is the answer, I am saying that two years under this unique situation (down 2 scholarships, very young team, physically not ready for this level of competition, admissions turning down an needed transfer big man) is not enough time to make the decision to terminate. I have spoken to Monty and other very qualified basketball people and while they have particular points needed to improve (offensive ball movement, drive and kick better) they all feel that the staff deserves one more season.
This team has no interior rim protection - Vanover, Kelly and Grant are simply not physically ready and get dominated inside. This team understandably wears down in the second half due to only having 7 players that can realistically contribute. That leads to poor defensive fundamentals as the players are exhausted. However these kids will mature, will improve thru summer workouts and the new recruits will bring badly needed depth and improved practice completion. Yes its easy to rip on an winless staff and they very well may need to be replaced, but its literally older boys competing versus grown men in most of the games.
I believe "IF" this staff is retained, the team has an overall winning record and wins 8+ league games next season.

4thGenCal said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

Not kidding. I don't believe there is enough information on which to base a rational decision. It's convenient and perhaps emotionally satisfying to blame the coaching but not really a justifiable conclusion given the history and other circumstances like limited pool of academically qualified student athletes to recruit.

---

Totally agree with you - and as one of the donor's and also one who follows the program very closely, its important to objectively understand how deep the hole that WJ inherited.
To be clear - I am not saying this staff is the answer, I am saying that two years under this unique situation (down 2 scholarships, very young team, physically not ready for this level of competition, admissions turning down an needed transfer big man) is not enough time to make the decision to terminate. I have spoken to Monty and other very qualified basketball people and while they have particular points needed to improve (offensive ball movement, drive and kick better) they all feel that the staff deserves one more season.
This team has no interior rim protection - Vanover, Kelly and Grant are simply not physically ready and get dominated inside. This team understandably wears down in the second half due to only having 7 players that can realistically contribute. That leads to poor defensive fundamentals as the players are exhausted. However these kids will mature, will improve thru summer workouts and the new recruits will bring badly needed depth and improved practice completion. Yes its easy to rip on an winless staff and they very well may need to be replaced, but its literally older boys competing versus grown men in most of the games.
I believe "IF" this staff is retained, the team has an overall winning record and wins 8+ league games next season.

---

Thing is, if you're right, I think he'll need a very good (i.e. top-four finish) next year to make up for all the lost support after these past two seasons. Haas will be at or, more likely, below the attendance you're seeing now. If he falls short, he'll be done - no recruits will want to play for a coach that might be fired in front of non-existent crowds.

This isn't football where you need a starting roster of 15+ quality starters in order to compete for a bowl game. We're taking about basketball where ONE player can make you a March contender. We have a roster FULL of misfits and a coaching staff plagued with turnover and unable to provide results. This is a FACT. This is the WORST team/run in the history of college basketball and certainly the worst in the long standing history of this program. Look at how many college programs catch lightning in a bottle. Heck even Cuonzo had a tiny version of it cooking here. IT can be done in Berkeley. Donors who have clout and pull and allow this current coaching staff to languish and further ruin our potential are just as guilty and complacent as anyone else who doesn't have the balls to say something to this AD. OWN IT.

GoCal80 said:

---

I am somewhat conflicted about whether we should keep WJ or move on to someone else, but I do believe that given where the program was when CM left, it was going to be a 3 year or more project to rebuild the program unless we could bring in some very good junior college players ready to contribute and provide some leadership and stability. I believe that no matter who was coaching the team during the rebuilding period, things would be ugly for a while.

---

OK, I am not far from where you are. But we certainly know we lack a full deck of talent (let's not pick on any individual players but say we just need some more good players). If we go for another year, where is the recruiting for next year. It looks good but not great. Is it going to elevate us to .500 as some have hoped for? If not why? If WJ and staff wished to have fan confidence in that "next" year why have they not stacked us with recruits that we are whistling about? I am not against another year, but am wondering if we won't just be in the same place we are and the date is Feb 24, 2020 with the similar results. That is what is scary. So the real question is has he done enough to be retained. Some say yes, some say no. But if you are all "yes" explain what will be different one year hence please.

Problems with the roster post Martin should have been known/anticipated by Jones. Moraga has hinted that Moore would have left regardless. So, the question for Jones in his interview with Williams should have been "what is your plan?". (That question should have been asked for anyone that Williams interviewed) Braun came in to a semi-depleted roster (AbdurRahim, Fowlkes and Gardner gone) and one that was going to be even more depleted after the first year and with no postseason play for a year - but it appears he had a plan. He loaded up on D1 and JC transfers to give him time to recruit 4 year players.
Whatever WJ's plan was, it is and was difficult to see. I know he wanted to run a Louisville pressure defense - and even possibly the Syracuse high post pressure defense - but he didn't have the players for those defensive schemes - tried to run them anyways - and had to regroup. Has he recruited to that defensive scheme? It does not appear so. The only way I'd give Jones another year is for him to have, explain and justify a plan that can be executed. He's had two years to come up with a plan. Has he done so?

4thGenCal said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

Not kidding. I don't believe there is enough information on which to base a rational decision. It's convenient and perhaps emotionally satisfying to blame the coaching but not really a justifiable conclusion given the history and other circumstances like limited pool of academically qualified student athletes to recruit.

---

Totally agree with you - and as one of the donor's and also one who follows the program very closely, its important to objectively understand how deep the hole that WJ inherited.
To be clear - I am not saying this staff is the answer, I am saying that two years under this unique situation (down 2 scholarships, very young team, physically not ready for this level of competition, admissions turning down an needed transfer big man) is not enough time to make the decision to terminate. I have spoken to Monty and other very qualified basketball people and while they have particular points needed to improve (offensive ball movement, drive and kick better) they all feel that the staff deserves one more season.
This team has no interior rim protection - Vanover, Kelly and Grant are simply not physically ready and get dominated inside. This team understandably wears down in the second half due to only having 7 players that can realistically contribute. That leads to poor defensive fundamentals as the players are exhausted. However these kids will mature, will improve thru summer workouts and the new recruits will bring badly needed depth and improved practice completion. Yes its easy to rip on an winless staff and they very well may need to be replaced, but its literally older boys competing versus grown men in most of the games.
I believe "IF" this staff is retained, the team has an overall winning record and wins 8+ league games next season.

---

Again, cgb looked at all power conference teams in the history of modern college bball with similar levels of experience and talent (measured by recruiting rankings - not a perfect metric but all we have).

And of those teams with similar levels of experience and talent, cal is the worst team in that group by every relevant metric (overall record, defensive efficiency numbers, etc)

I get that we are not the most talented or most experienced. But there have been other coaches who have been saddled with the exact same handicaps.

Why are we still the worst even when you account for experience and talent level?

That's the question I want answered by wyking supporters. I'm tired of hearing the same inexperience excuse.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

I am somewhat conflicted about whether we should keep WJ or move on to someone else, but I do believe that given where the program was when CM left, it was going to be a 3 year or more project to rebuild the program unless we could bring in some very good junior college players ready to contribute and provide some leadership and stability. I believe that no matter who was coaching the team during the rebuilding period, things would be ugly for a while.

---

OK, I am not far from where you are. But we certainly know we lack a full deck of talent (let's not pick on any individual players but say we just need some more good players). If we go for another year, where is the recruiting for next year. It looks good but not great. Is it going to elevate us to .500 as some have hoped for? If not why? If WJ and staff wished to have fan confidence in that "next" year why have they not stacked us with recruits that we are whistling about? I am not against another year, but am wondering if we won't just be in the same place we are and the date is Feb 24, 2020 with the similar results. That is what is scary. So the real question is has he done enough to be retained. Some say yes, some say no. But if you are all "yes" explain what will be different one year hence please.

---

The extra off season of strength training, and practice will be huge for Bradley, Vanover, Kelly and Gordon. Sueling and McNeil as well, should see further maturing of their bodies and basketball IQ development.
Nearly equally important will be the addition of three solid recruits who all will push for top 8 rotation playing.
Other than the Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina's its upper class leadership/maturity that wins in College basketball. Nevada starts 5 seniors, Washington is easily winning the league with an upper class starting lineup.
This team is clearly outmatched in physicality, depth and experience and that will significantly change for the next season. Additionally the staff is targeting another "big" to use for the upcoming availability of the Roman Davis scholarship. So while this season has clearly been an disaster of historic proportions, the future is much brighter.

4thGenCal said:

---

OdontoBear66 said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

I am somewhat conflicted about whether we should keep WJ or move on to someone else, but I do believe that given where the program was when CM left, it was going to be a 3 year or more project to rebuild the program unless we could bring in some very good junior college players ready to contribute and provide some leadership and stability. I believe that no matter who was coaching the team during the rebuilding period, things would be ugly for a while.

---

OK, I am not far from where you are. But we certainly know we lack a full deck of talent (let's not pick on any individual players but say we just need some more good players). If we go for another year, where is the recruiting for next year. It looks good but not great. Is it going to elevate us to .500 as some have hoped for? If not why? If WJ and staff wished to have fan confidence in that "next" year why have they not stacked us with recruits that we are whistling about? I am not against another year, but am wondering if we won't just be in the same place we are and the date is Feb 24, 2020 with the similar results. That is what is scary. So the real question is has he done enough to be retained. Some say yes, some say no. But if you are all "yes" explain what will be different one year hence please.

---

The extra off season of strength training, and practice will be huge for Bradley, Vanover, Kelly and Gordon. Sueling and McNeil as well, should see further maturing of their bodies and basketball IQ development.
Nearly equally important will be the addition of three solid recruits who all will push for top 8 rotation playing.
Other than the Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina's its upper class leadership/maturity that wins in College basketball. Nevada starts 5 seniors, Washington is easily winning the league with an upper class starting lineup.
This team is clearly outmatched in physicality, depth and experience and that will significantly change for the next season. Additionally the staff is targeting another "big" to use for the upcoming availability of the Roman Davis scholarship. So while this season has clearly been an disaster of historic proportions, the future is much brighter.

---

There is no doubt the future is brighter. But that's not the question.

The real question is whether wyking is the best man (or woman) for the job.

Let's put it this way. If you had to bet your life, who would you pick to win the most games in the next three seasons? (Who would pick to be your game of thrones champion, if you will - I'd pick Arya)

Wyking, turner or decuire (those guys aren't my choices - but it's more than reasonable they would likely come to cal if offered)

This question is for any wyking supporter

I believe Coach Jones has the program in a better place than it was when he got the job. I agree that we will be better next year if he stays because the players will be more mature. But I also believe he has to be replaced. I want a staff that gives us a chance (even small) to make a final four. I just don't see it with this staff. There are just so many little things that this team does poorly and inconsistently that a well coached team doesn't do. I'm sure he and the staff are coaching them NOT to do those things, or to do those things better and more consistently, but the fact that we don't is a telling. It means the coaching staff isn't effective in getting the players to do what they need them to do. Then there are basic things like:

1) out of bounds plays under the basket which make absolutely no sense (why pass into the corner?)
2) running plays which ask our left-handed players to go right (using their weak hand) instead of left
3) playing (in fact, starting) JHD when he really has no business being out on the floor for extended periods of time due to his lack of comfort on offense. I'm sure JHD is a really good kid and seems like a really hard worker but I cringe every time he gets the ball.
4) running sets which really do nothing to create open shots for the first 20-25 seconds of each possession, which then require us to run a high pick and roll with less than 10 seconds remaining to try to get a shot
5) inability to attack a zone
6) poor close outs
7) I could go on, but why?

I agree that we lack talent. Basically have 6-7 guys who can currently play at a Pac 12 level (but not a high Pac 12 level).

Davis -- Not a Pac 12 level player. Period.

Gordon -- obviously not healthy. probably should have blueshirted. might be 2 years away. 1 to get completely healthy and 1 to get rid of the rust. So we might have 1 year of him and then he'll graduate.

JHD -- completely uncomfortable on offense. If I were coach, it would be really difficult to play him because of that. Basically playing 4 on 5. If I were coaching against him, I'd completely sag off him and basically not guard him.

Grant shows flashes but not consistently. could be a good +/- player but doesn't look like a go to guy.

Austin -- very quick with the ball, but over dribbles and is ineffective against a zone due to his inability to shoot outside of 17 feet.

Kelly, Bradley, Sueing, McNeil and Vanover are an OK core, but definitely need more time to develop.

ducky23 said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

GoCal80 said:

---

Not kidding. I don't believe there is enough information on which to base a rational decision. It's convenient and perhaps emotionally satisfying to blame the coaching but not really a justifiable conclusion given the history and other circumstances like limited pool of academically qualified student athletes to recruit.

---

Totally agree with you - and as one of the donor's and also one who follows the program very closely, its important to objectively understand how deep the hole that WJ inherited.
To be clear - I am not saying this staff is the answer, I am saying that two years under this unique situation (down 2 scholarships, very young team, physically not ready for this level of competition, admissions turning down an needed transfer big man) is not enough time to make the decision to terminate. I have spoken to Monty and other very qualified basketball people and while they have particular points needed to improve (offensive ball movement, drive and kick better) they all feel that the staff deserves one more season.
This team has no interior rim protection - Vanover, Kelly and Grant are simply not physically ready and get dominated inside. This team understandably wears down in the second half due to only having 7 players that can realistically contribute. That leads to poor defensive fundamentals as the players are exhausted. However these kids will mature, will improve thru summer workouts and the new recruits will bring badly needed depth and improved practice completion. Yes its easy to rip on an winless staff and they very well may need to be replaced, but its literally older boys competing versus grown men in most of the games.
I believe "IF" this staff is retained, the team has an overall winning record and wins 8+ league games next season.

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Again, cgb looked at all power conference teams in the history of modern college bball with similar levels of experience and talent (measured by recruiting rankings - not a perfect metric but all we have).

And of those teams with similar levels of experience and talent, cal is the worst team in that group by every relevant metric (overall record, defensive efficiency numbers, etc)

I get that we are not the most talented or most experienced. But there have been other coaches who have been saddled with the exact same handicaps.

Why are we still the worst even when you account for experience and talent level?

That's the question I want answered by wyking supporters. I'm tired of hearing the same inexperience excuse.

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To directly answer your question is that no teams that I am aware of have been down to 9 scholarship players (Gordon cannot go on one leg though it has been futily attempted). And candidly Davis, Dyson, Kelly and Vanover are simply not ready, either skill wise or physically. So the metric you referred to, likely does not factor in decimated rosters to the level Cal currently has.
Its simply an roster that is over matched in experience, depth, physicality and no interior rim protector. Not being able to gain admission for the grad transfer big, has clearly hurt the interior defense as well.
For whatever reason's many posters (not just you) have minimized the factual state of having a depleted roster coupled with inexperience and no effective bigs. Its a formula for failure no matter who is coaching.

calbear80 said:

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I was very supportive of hiring of Coach Martin, Coach Montgomery and Coach Tedford. I was very supportive of each of them throughout their tenures at Cal (both with my donations and my posts).

Initially, I was supportive of hiring of Coach Dykes until he hired Andy Buh as DC and went 1-11 in his first season with a historically bad defense. That is when I started a thread calling for firing of Sonny and Andy. So, my calling for firing a Cal coach who loses a lot is nothing new.

The reality is if a coach starts with a horrible losing record in his first year, it is very difficult to turn things around. When the current MBB coach started his first season with a 2-17 Pac-12 record, it considerably impacted his chances of good recruiting and subsequent success.

Coach Martin, Coach Montgomery, Coach Dykes and Coach Tedford all came to Cal with the proven background, experience and track record which indicated they had a good chance of success at Cal. Unfortunately, the current MBB coach did not have the same.

When Coach Martin decided to leave for Missouri, I was hoping we hire Coach Travis DeCuire from Montana (Coach Montgomery's top assistant who by then had three years of successful head coaching experience at Montana) or the guy from Nevada or the guy from St. Mary's. The second two may or may not have been really interested in Cal or within our budget. Coach Travis DeCuire was interested in Cal and was well within our budget. Unfortunately, AD Mike Williams decided to go in a different direction.

When the current coach was hired back in the Spring of 2017, some national publications ranked it as the worst hire in major college basketball, even lower than the coach Akron Zips hired (yes, lower than Akron Zips(. Unfortunately, they have proven to be right.

So, unfortunately, the current horrible losing situation with the Cal MBB is not a surprise. That is why I think we need a change to turn things around.

Go Bears!

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Travis DeCuire had no previous head coaching experience when he was at Cal. Montana is his first head coaching gig.