wifeisafurd said:

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This thread is full of know it alls, who might be better informed if they invest in the private site.

First of all, the cost of changing coaches is Jones' severance of several million and what we pay the new coach.

Second, MBB when even doing well barely makes it in the black without severance and it just a plain loser if you add unfunded severance. It is like that at almost every Pac school, not named Arizona or maybe UCLA. The only way to fund new coaches is either a donor funds the transition or football pays for it (Ernie Kent's situation)

Second, that money is paid out of an operating fund that the Chancellor wants to not operate at a deficit. With a good portion of football revenues going to a capital fund, Cal probably has no money to pay fo replace Jones, no less increase the coaching salary. That likely becomes apparent to all of you know it alls as soon as Monday. There has been plenty of discussion on the economics of Pac basketball and Cal basketball, and comments like Cal can afford $2 million (no less $4.8 million) are just clueless, as will become evident in short order..

Third, the ignorant comments that donors being short sighted have no clue why the usual donors are not coming to the table. You can go to the private site and find out why or you can put the money up yourself. In the latter case, you better hurry.

Fourth, there are the remarks about capital projects for Title 9, which are paid out of a capital funds. The upgrades are required to be complaint with a tier that Cal has committed to qualify. With capital projects, you can borrow and then raise funds, and people that are willing to donate for purposes that have a specific use and provide naming rights, but not donate to the operating fund. Another long discussion on the private board. As people who have followed the discussions on the Insiders boards, there is a huge different where Cal sits on operating funds versus capital funds. BTW, the term funds doesn't mean money, but how accounts are organized under GAAP for schools.

Fifth, I don't see why everyone is knocking the original post. Cal will need to look at cheap alternative for a replacement coach. Right idea, but perhaps wrong guy since he wife's career also is an issue. But expect any new coach in th near future to be a former Cal player who is willing to take a low salary, a non-D1 coach who makes a low salary, or an assistant coach somewhere. Reduce the Jones severance and maybe you have more flexibility, but you guys need to start facing some cold, hard economic reality.

---

It is hard for people to understand why the cost of changing coaches is Jones severance plus what we pay the new coach. We have to pay Jones the money regardless, so from basic math perspective, the cost is what we pay the new coach over the next three years, period. We have to pay Jones his $1M per year no matter what, so that is a sunk cost, not a cost of changing coaches.

You've tried to explain before why the athletic department has to look at it as the cost of Jones' buyout plus the cost of the new coach, and I understand you say there is some very bizarre incomprehensible reason why that is true, but it will never be apparent to any of the rest of us who took 3rd grade math but didn't take graduate level courses in how to have a stupid bureaucracy.

If MBB is barely in the black without a severance even when doing well, then things are hopeless. Unless we have rich donors who love the program, we're screwed. Sounds like we're screwed. And if MBB is barely in the black even when doing well and there is no severance, well, the it must be really in the red when the program is in the tank and everyone gives up their season tickets.

I agree it is stupid to criticize donors. If I got ten billion dollars in my pocket tomorrow, I would not be donating any significant amounts to Cal basketball. As much as I love Cal basketball, sorry, the world has much greater needs, even if I will spend money on season tickets and time attending games.

If the economic reality is that we can't afford to pay a competitive salary, though, then it is time to face facts, Cal will never be competitive in MBB barring some low paid coach creating an unexpected turnaround. Again, may as well just keep Jones until there is no more buyout, then hire someone else cheap and hope he works out, give him a few years, etc., etc., etc. I.e., we're back to the Dick years.

I appreciate your posts. For better or for worse, you're coming really close to convincing me that it is time to give up season tickets, even if, in one form or another, I've had them for 41 seasons. I can always go when I have the time. Heck, even if I just go to 6 or 7 conference games, 2 or 3 OOC games, and buy tickets on StubHub, I'll spend less than half of what my season ticket cost me, and still most of the time get better seats than what I have now. What I read from you is that the cold, hard economic reality is Cal basketball is going to suck unless and until we catch lightning in a bottle.

As fond as I have been for 45 years of Cal basketball, maybe it is time to just stop hanging on to the past. Maybe it is time to get season tickets to St. Mary's basketball, it is closer to the old Harmon experience without teams as crappy as we saw with the Dicks. I enjoyed going to the occasional game when my son was a student there, and it is closer to my house than Cal, and they don't have a cold, hard economic reality that they will be at or near the bottom of the conference for years to come, barring some change of luck.

Sigh.

Support the Gaels and the Don's.
Both are fantastic programs.
And support Cal.
Go Bears!

SFCityBear said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

This thread is full of know it alls, who might be better informed if they invest in the private site.

First of all, the cost of changing coaches is Jones' severance of several million and what we pay the new coach.

Second, MBB when even doing well barely makes it in the black without severance and it just a plain loser if you add unfunded severance. It is like that at almost every Pac school, not named Arizona or maybe UCLA. The only way to fund new coaches is either a donor funds the transition or football pays for it (Ernie Kent's situation)

Second, that money is paid out of an operating fund that the Chancellor wants to not operate at a deficit. With a good portion of football revenues going to a capital fund, Cal probably has no money to pay fo replace Jones, no less increase the coaching salary. That likely becomes apparent to all of you know it alls as soon as Monday. There has been plenty of discussion on the economics of Pac basketball and Cal basketball, and comments like Cal can afford $2 million (no less $4.8 million) are just clueless, as will become evident in short order..

Third, the ignorant comments that donors being short sighted have no clue why the usual donors are not coming to the table. You can go to the private site and find out why or you can put the money up yourself. In the latter case, you better hurry.

Fourth, there are the remarks about capital projects for Title 9, which are paid out of a capital funds. The upgrades are required to be complaint with a tier that Cal has committed to qualify. With capital projects, you can borrow and then raise funds, and people that are willing to donate for purposes that have a specific use and provide naming rights, but not donate to the operating fund. Another long discussion on the private board. As people who have followed the discussions on the Insiders boards, there is a huge different where Cal sits on operating funds versus capital funds. BTW, the term funds doesn't mean money, but how accounts are organized under GAAP for schools.

Fifth, I don't see why everyone is knocking the original post. Cal will need to look at cheap alternative for a replacement coach. Right idea, but perhaps wrong guy since he wife's career also is an issue. But expect any new coach in th near future to be a former Cal player who is willing to take a low salary, a non-D1 coach who makes a low salary, or an assistant coach somewhere. Reduce the Jones severance and maybe you have more flexibility, but you guys need to start facing some cold, hard economic reality.

---

Based on the picture you paint, it sounds like Justin Labagh of CCSF would meet your criteria. Justin is a former Cal player, and the best JC coach around. He wins championship after championship with a roster that changes every year, makes $65K plus $25K in overtime pay, and $17K in benefits, a total of $107K per year. Is that low enough pay? Maybe too low, so low it might disqualify him, if he wasn't already not being considered by the elite fans who want a multi-million dollar coach.

Years ago, the name of the former CCSF coach, Brad Duggan, was floated as a candidate. Like Labagh, he had been an outstanding coach at CCSF, and at the time was providing the color on Cal broadcasts. He would have been rejected based on his public behavior, at times too crude for an elite school like Cal. In comparison, Duggan would make Campanelli sound like Mother Teresa. Justin Labagh does not have that kind of baggage, in fact, no baggage that I know of. He just wins games.

---

What do you think of Justin's teams' fundamentals? Does he coach good defense? Do his teams get layups and open 3s in the half court? Take care of ball? Shoot FT well?

Thanks for reminding me about Dish.

FuzzyWuzzy said:

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SFCityBear said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

This thread is full of know it alls, who might be better informed if they invest in the private site.

First of all, the cost of changing coaches is Jones' severance of several million and what we pay the new coach.

Second, MBB when even doing well barely makes it in the black without severance and it just a plain loser if you add unfunded severance. It is like that at almost every Pac school, not named Arizona or maybe UCLA. The only way to fund new coaches is either a donor funds the transition or football pays for it (Ernie Kent's situation)

Second, that money is paid out of an operating fund that the Chancellor wants to not operate at a deficit. With a good portion of football revenues going to a capital fund, Cal probably has no money to pay fo replace Jones, no less increase the coaching salary. That likely becomes apparent to all of you know it alls as soon as Monday. There has been plenty of discussion on the economics of Pac basketball and Cal basketball, and comments like Cal can afford $2 million (no less $4.8 million) are just clueless, as will become evident in short order..

Third, the ignorant comments that donors being short sighted have no clue why the usual donors are not coming to the table. You can go to the private site and find out why or you can put the money up yourself. In the latter case, you better hurry.

Fourth, there are the remarks about capital projects for Title 9, which are paid out of a capital funds. The upgrades are required to be complaint with a tier that Cal has committed to qualify. With capital projects, you can borrow and then raise funds, and people that are willing to donate for purposes that have a specific use and provide naming rights, but not donate to the operating fund. Another long discussion on the private board. As people who have followed the discussions on the Insiders boards, there is a huge different where Cal sits on operating funds versus capital funds. BTW, the term funds doesn't mean money, but how accounts are organized under GAAP for schools.

Fifth, I don't see why everyone is knocking the original post. Cal will need to look at cheap alternative for a replacement coach. Right idea, but perhaps wrong guy since he wife's career also is an issue. But expect any new coach in th near future to be a former Cal player who is willing to take a low salary, a non-D1 coach who makes a low salary, or an assistant coach somewhere. Reduce the Jones severance and maybe you have more flexibility, but you guys need to start facing some cold, hard economic reality.

---

Based on the picture you paint, it sounds like Justin Labagh of CCSF would meet your criteria. Justin is a former Cal player, and the best JC coach around. He wins championship after championship with a roster that changes every year, makes $65K plus $25K in overtime pay, and $17K in benefits, a total of $107K per year. Is that low enough pay? Maybe too low, so low it might disqualify him, if he wasn't already not being considered by the elite fans who want a multi-million dollar coach.

Years ago, the name of the former CCSF coach, Brad Duggan, was floated as a candidate. Like Labagh, he had been an outstanding coach at CCSF, and at the time was providing the color on Cal broadcasts. He would have been rejected based on his public behavior, at times too crude for an elite school like Cal. In comparison, Duggan would make Campanelli sound like Mother Teresa. Justin Labagh does not have that kind of baggage, in fact, no baggage that I know of. He just wins games.

---

What do you think of Justin's teams' fundamentals? Does he coach good defense? Do his teams get layups and open 3s in the half court? Take care of ball? Shoot FT well?

---

These are good questions. I wish I had answers for you. I was just looking at Justin's record. I have been to only one game of Justin Labagh's several years ago, to take a look at De'End Parker, a recruit that Montgomery had a commit from. Montgomery was at the game doing the same thing, with more skill at doing it than I. I don't remember much about the game. CCSF was fast breaking a lot, but in the halfcourt offense, they looked for cutters to the basket a lot. I don't remember much about the defense at all. Parker looked good running offense and made a couple of drives and a couple of threes. CCSF had others who did all the scoring.

When I was a younger man (and Brad Duggan was a younger man as well), I went to a lot of Coach Duggan's CCSF games. Duggan was the AD who hired Labagh, I believe, and I expect they are similar coaches. Duggan was a master at choosing a system of play that would suit his personnel. If he had quick, fast players, he ran a fast break all the time and many games, CCSF scored in the hundreds. If he had slower players, or a good big man like Dean Garrett, he would build an offense around him. If he had a point guard like Dean the Dream Maye, who could break down any defender, he would play more of a halfcourt offense. with a lot of movement and penetration.

It is a lower level of play. JC. This year, two of CCSF's best players are Winston and McCullough, two players who flopped at Cal. Was the reason that they did not have D! talent, or was it Wyking Jones' coaching that held them back? What did Labagh do different with them, if anything? I'd like to know the answer to that. Maybe I'll get to a CCSF game or two next season, and I can answer your questions then, assuming the Cal job is open at that time.

Cal8285 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

This thread is full of know it alls, who might be better informed if they invest in the private site.

First of all, the cost of changing coaches is Jones' severance of several million and what we pay the new coach.

Second, MBB when even doing well barely makes it in the black without severance and it just a plain loser if you add unfunded severance. It is like that at almost every Pac school, not named Arizona or maybe UCLA. The only way to fund new coaches is either a donor funds the transition or football pays for it (Ernie Kent's situation)

Second, that money is paid out of an operating fund that the Chancellor wants to not operate at a deficit. With a good portion of football revenues going to a capital fund, Cal probably has no money to pay fo replace Jones, no less increase the coaching salary. That likely becomes apparent to all of you know it alls as soon as Monday. There has been plenty of discussion on the economics of Pac basketball and Cal basketball, and comments like Cal can afford $2 million (no less $4.8 million) are just clueless, as will become evident in short order..

Third, the ignorant comments that donors being short sighted have no clue why the usual donors are not coming to the table. You can go to the private site and find out why or you can put the money up yourself. In the latter case, you better hurry.

Fourth, there are the remarks about capital projects for Title 9, which are paid out of a capital funds. The upgrades are required to be complaint with a tier that Cal has committed to qualify. With capital projects, you can borrow and then raise funds, and people that are willing to donate for purposes that have a specific use and provide naming rights, but not donate to the operating fund. Another long discussion on the private board. As people who have followed the discussions on the Insiders boards, there is a huge different where Cal sits on operating funds versus capital funds. BTW, the term funds doesn't mean money, but how accounts are organized under GAAP for schools.

Fifth, I don't see why everyone is knocking the original post. Cal will need to look at cheap alternative for a replacement coach. Right idea, but perhaps wrong guy since he wife's career also is an issue. But expect any new coach in th near future to be a former Cal player who is willing to take a low salary, a non-D1 coach who makes a low salary, or an assistant coach somewhere. Reduce the Jones severance and maybe you have more flexibility, but you guys need to start facing some cold, hard economic reality.

---

It is hard for people to understand why the cost of changing coaches is Jones severance plus what we pay the new coach. We have to pay Jones the money regardless, so from basic math perspective, the cost is what we pay the new coach over the next three years, period. We have to pay Jones his $1M per year no matter what, so that is a sunk cost, not a cost of changing coaches.

You've tried to explain before why the athletic department has to look at it as the cost of Jones' buyout plus the cost of the new coach, and I understand you say there is some very bizarre incomprehensible reason why that is true, but it will never be apparent to any of the rest of us who took 3rd grade math but didn't take graduate level courses in how to have a stupid bureaucracy.

If MBB is barely in the black without a severance even when doing well, then things are hopeless. Unless we have rich donors who love the program, we're screwed. Sounds like we're screwed. And if MBB is barely in the black even when doing well and there is no severance, well, the it must be really in the red when the program is in the tank and everyone gives up their season tickets.

I agree it is stupid to criticize donors. If I got ten billion dollars in my pocket tomorrow, I would not be donating any significant amounts to Cal basketball. As much as I love Cal basketball, sorry, the world has much greater needs, even if I will spend money on season tickets and time attending games.

If the economic reality is that we can't afford to pay a competitive salary, though, then it is time to face facts, Cal will never be competitive in MBB barring some low paid coach creating an unexpected turnaround. Again, may as well just keep Jones until there is no more buyout, then hire someone else cheap and hope he works out, give him a few years, etc., etc., etc. I.e., we're back to the Dick years.

I appreciate your posts. For better or for worse, you're coming really close to convincing me that it is time to give up season tickets, even if, in one form or another, I've had them for 41 seasons. I can always go when I have the time. Heck, even if I just go to 6 or 7 conference games, 2 or 3 OOC games, and buy tickets on StubHub, I'll spend less than half of what my season ticket cost me, and still most of the time get better seats than what I have now. What I read from you is that the cold, hard economic reality is Cal basketball is going to suck unless and until we catch lightning in a bottle.

As fond as I have been for 45 years of Cal basketball, maybe it is time to just stop hanging on to the past. Maybe it is time to get season tickets to St. Mary's basketball, it is closer to the old Harmon experience without teams as crappy as we saw with the Dicks. I enjoyed going to the occasional game when my son was a student there, and it is closer to my house than Cal, and they don't have a cold, hard economic reality that they will be at or near the bottom of the conference for years to come, barring some change of luck.

Sigh.

---

More like I was trying to prepare you for the reality of what I saw coming (I did not know in advance of JK's decision).

There are a lot of reasons the AD did what I thought he was going to do and I tried my best to explain them. Some was economics, some maybe timing (the guys JK wants to consider are not ready yet). Some of them maybe player/recruit related. Most programs would have canned a guy with this win-loss record, but Cal isn't most schools. Moreover, the way Cal ended the season may have been enough to save Jones. Sorta like young Harbaugh, you may have a lousy record, but when you beat Cal and SC in the same year, you get an extension. Jones beat Furd at Furd and beat the team with the best conference record. At the end the team was competitive, with everyone in the conference.

The thing about basketball (having played in high school with a future NBA player). is one or two players can make a HUGE difference and turn a program around almost instantly. While McNeil is gone, there is some talent left. If Jones or a new coach the following year can hit on a recruit or two, Cal can be back quickly. It is not like football where you really have to develop team depth over a 3 year period. Just my two cents.

wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

This thread is full of know it alls, who might be better informed if they invest in the private site.

First of all, the cost of changing coaches is Jones' severance of several million and what we pay the new coach.

Second, MBB when even doing well barely makes it in the black without severance and it just a plain loser if you add unfunded severance. It is like that at almost every Pac school, not named Arizona or maybe UCLA. The only way to fund new coaches is either a donor funds the transition or football pays for it (Ernie Kent's situation)

Second, that money is paid out of an operating fund that the Chancellor wants to not operate at a deficit. With a good portion of football revenues going to a capital fund, Cal probably has no money to pay fo replace Jones, no less increase the coaching salary. That likely becomes apparent to all of you know it alls as soon as Monday. There has been plenty of discussion on the economics of Pac basketball and Cal basketball, and comments like Cal can afford $2 million (no less $4.8 million) are just clueless, as will become evident in short order..

Third, the ignorant comments that donors being short sighted have no clue why the usual donors are not coming to the table. You can go to the private site and find out why or you can put the money up yourself. In the latter case, you better hurry.

Fourth, there are the remarks about capital projects for Title 9, which are paid out of a capital funds. The upgrades are required to be complaint with a tier that Cal has committed to qualify. With capital projects, you can borrow and then raise funds, and people that are willing to donate for purposes that have a specific use and provide naming rights, but not donate to the operating fund. Another long discussion on the private board. As people who have followed the discussions on the Insiders boards, there is a huge different where Cal sits on operating funds versus capital funds. BTW, the term funds doesn't mean money, but how accounts are organized under GAAP for schools.

Fifth, I don't see why everyone is knocking the original post. Cal will need to look at cheap alternative for a replacement coach. Right idea, but perhaps wrong guy since he wife's career also is an issue. But expect any new coach in th near future to be a former Cal player who is willing to take a low salary, a non-D1 coach who makes a low salary, or an assistant coach somewhere. Reduce the Jones severance and maybe you have more flexibility, but you guys need to start facing some cold, hard economic reality.

---

It is hard for people to understand why the cost of changing coaches is Jones severance plus what we pay the new coach. We have to pay Jones the money regardless, so from basic math perspective, the cost is what we pay the new coach over the next three years, period. We have to pay Jones his $1M per year no matter what, so that is a sunk cost, not a cost of changing coaches.

You've tried to explain before why the athletic department has to look at it as the cost of Jones' buyout plus the cost of the new coach, and I understand you say there is some very bizarre incomprehensible reason why that is true, but it will never be apparent to any of the rest of us who took 3rd grade math but didn't take graduate level courses in how to have a stupid bureaucracy.

If MBB is barely in the black without a severance even when doing well, then things are hopeless. Unless we have rich donors who love the program, we're screwed. Sounds like we're screwed. And if MBB is barely in the black even when doing well and there is no severance, well, the it must be really in the red when the program is in the tank and everyone gives up their season tickets.

I agree it is stupid to criticize donors. If I got ten billion dollars in my pocket tomorrow, I would not be donating any significant amounts to Cal basketball. As much as I love Cal basketball, sorry, the world has much greater needs, even if I will spend money on season tickets and time attending games.

If the economic reality is that we can't afford to pay a competitive salary, though, then it is time to face facts, Cal will never be competitive in MBB barring some low paid coach creating an unexpected turnaround. Again, may as well just keep Jones until there is no more buyout, then hire someone else cheap and hope he works out, give him a few years, etc., etc., etc. I.e., we're back to the Dick years.

I appreciate your posts. For better or for worse, you're coming really close to convincing me that it is time to give up season tickets, even if, in one form or another, I've had them for 41 seasons. I can always go when I have the time. Heck, even if I just go to 6 or 7 conference games, 2 or 3 OOC games, and buy tickets on StubHub, I'll spend less than half of what my season ticket cost me, and still most of the time get better seats than what I have now. What I read from you is that the cold, hard economic reality is Cal basketball is going to suck unless and until we catch lightning in a bottle.

As fond as I have been for 45 years of Cal basketball, maybe it is time to just stop hanging on to the past. Maybe it is time to get season tickets to St. Mary's basketball, it is closer to the old Harmon experience without teams as crappy as we saw with the Dicks. I enjoyed going to the occasional game when my son was a student there, and it is closer to my house than Cal, and they don't have a cold, hard economic reality that they will be at or near the bottom of the conference for years to come, barring some change of luck.

Sigh.

---

More like I was trying to prepare you for the reality of what I saw coming (I did not know in advance of JK's decision).

There are a lot of reasons the AD did what I thought he was going to do and I tried my best to explain them. Some was economics, some maybe timing (the guys JK wants to consider are not ready yet). Some of them maybe player/recruit related. Most programs would have canned a guy with this win-loss record, but Cal isn't most schools. Moreover, the way Cal ended the season may have been enough to save Jones. Sorta like young Harbaugh, you may have a lousy record, but when you beat Cal and SC in the same year, you get an extension. Jones beat Furd at Furd and beat the team with the best conference record. At the end the team was competitive, with everyone in the conference.

The thing about basketball (having played in high school with a future NBA player). is one or two players can make a HUGE difference and turn a program around almost instantly. While McNeil is gone, there is some talent left. If Jones or a new coach the following year can hit on a recruit or two, Cal can be back quickly. It is not like football where you really have to develop team depth over a 3 year period. Just my two cents.

---

If preparing for the reality was, "Knowlton thinks that the season ended well and there is real hope for the future," then I'd disagree with his analysis. I'd think that Knowlton is looking at the wrong things. But I'd still have hope for the long term future of the program, Jones goes after another year or two of crappy basketball and season ticket holders fleeing, but resources will be put into the program at that point to help it get back on its feet.

When you say that we can't afford a $1.8M coach and that we're barely in the black when succeeding and not paying a severance, then I'm depressed about the future. There is little hope.

Is there ZERO hope, ever? No, as you point out, there is always the chance of catching lightning in a bottle, more likely in basketball than in football, but what are the odds of it happening? Not great. And if we want to sustain it, then we need resources. Sounds like we don't have resources without donors, and right now, we don't have the necessary donors, so even if some of the fans return for a brief period if we catch lightning in a bottle, we still can't afford to pay coaches $1.8M, whoever we get probably leaves, and we're back to hiring somebody on the cheap and the cycle continues.

No, if you prepared me for Knowlton making a basketball decision I don't agree with, I'd be OK. When you prepare me for the bleak economic reality of Cal basketball that says there is little hope, well, then I'm depressed.