OaktownBear said:

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Northside91 said:

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parentswerebears said:

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I don't even know what to think at this point. Is this a good thing to lose all of your players when you were one of the worst teams in the NCAA? Who is going to take their place? How long does Fox stay? Does Cal even want basketball anymore? I don't know. Do I even care?

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If I were a Cal fan, I'd be good having underclassmen from a historical failure of a coaching regime go away. You flush next year like you flushed the last two. This gives Fox more latitude to recruit his own guys. If he's good, this is a positive.

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You guys are ridiculous. How many decent players in one year do you think it is feasible to recruit?

People said the same crap about the players on Holmoe's last team. Tedford got buy in and they set the foundation for a big turnaround. If you think any recruits of any quality are going to come play here, you are in complete fantasyland.

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People said that to defend Holmoe, but he was a good recruiter, sending many guys to the NFL.
Boller was a 5 star the top rated QB recruit. Joe Igber was the Hawaii state rushing record holder and he did it at Iolani!

Bobodeluxe said:

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A marginal, senior point guard, an overweight and rarely motivated power forward and a good shooting guard. What more do you need?

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An Aussie who can't jump.

fat_slice said:

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Fire Knowlton and get a new browser aka Firefox

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This is good. I like it.

So for all the Fox naysayers there are here, this might work out. Let's say all or most all of the players leave, and no one wants to sign with Fox. He will have no roster but walk-ons, if any. Knowlton, or anyone else, would have to fire the guy. And then we start all over with looking for a new coach. Or suspend the basketball program for a year, while we get reorganized. This could be a worse roster left for Fox than Cuonzo left for Wyking. And this time it wasn't the coach, Martin, who caused the mess, it is Knowlton and Fox themselves, much of it by that poorly handled speech that should have never been been public. I guess we are finding out how much the players liked Wyking Jones. No matter how many games he lost, or how much criticism we piled on him, this show by the players lets him walk out the door with his head held high, not for coaching, but for his character.

Bobodeluxe said:

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A marginal, senior point guard, an overweight and rarely motivated power forward and a good shooting guard. What more do you need?

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If the guy in the middle is Kelly, I wouldn't be motivated either, if the coach started me for most of the season, and then told me to go sit on the end of the bench for the last several games, playing very little.

GBear4Life said:

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Northside91 said:

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parentswerebears said:

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It's that if in your last sentence that troubles me.

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There are no guarantees in life. He'll be an A an F or something in between. But Wyking and CM's guys going away isn't a problem. Failure on this scale requires a gut job. I'd like to see Bradley and Kelly stay. Besides that, I don't GAF.

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This was more or less the perspective I suggested we should consider. 2019-2020 is a free pass. Get your guys in who came to play for you that will grow with the program and peak when Fox will need to show some considerable improvement years 2 and 3.

Fox can't have the same 2 years as Wyking and keep his job, but year 1 is a free pass.

Fox probably saw the tape and knew he wasn't truly going to do a hard sell job to keep anybody. Maybe this was a part of his plan. Don't mince words - payers who aren't buying in won't stay -- Fox gets his own guys.

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Since it looks like more players may be leaving, you are being optimistic here. Fox made a stupid speech. If you have very little, you don't open the door and turn off some players to get them thinking about leaving. This was a team that last year, played hard, and did what the coach asked much of the time. I think most of them really liked him. Fox shot himself in the foot, because most, if not all, get no more than one or two players in their first recruiting class which they alone recruited. Monty got one, Jorge. Martin got one, Okoroh. Oh yes, and Tarwater for a year. Campanelli got no recruits. Monty and Martin both walked into positive situations, good players already on the roster, and considerable excitement about their arrivals as successful head coaches. Fox was not as successful a coach, ans was walking into a very negative situation. A losing team, two years of losing, a roster full of players who really liked the fired coach. Not much for the players or the fans to look forward to. And then Fox makes a speech which made the situation worse, and other players think of leaving. I doubt that Fox can keep the recruits he has,and may not sign anyone else. Ironic that one thing that might cause players to stay is the worth of the academic education they are receiving. Fox may have to add more walk-ons to field a team.

SFCityBear said:

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Bobodeluxe said:

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A marginal, senior point guard, an overweight and rarely motivated power forward and a good shooting guard. What more do you need?

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If the guy in the middle is Kelly, I wouldn't be motivated either, if the coach started me for most of the season, and then told me to go sit on the end of the bench for the last several games, playing very little.

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That's the time to get motivated, assuming you want the situation to change.

SFCityBear said:

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Or suspend the basketball program for a year, while we get reorganized.

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Could we do that and remain in the Pac-12?

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Bobodeluxe said:

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A marginal, senior point guard, an overweight and rarely motivated power forward and a good shooting guard. What more do you need?

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If the guy in the middle is Kelly, I wouldn't be motivated either, if the coach started me for most of the season, and then told me to go sit on the end of the bench for the last several games, playing very little.

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That's the time to get motivated, assuming you want the situation to change.

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I agree, but that is after a game or two on the bench to let the bad taste wear off and then start planning on how to get back into the lineup. Jones benched Kelly so late in the season. Jones used to start a player, and a game or two later, just give up on him for a couple of weeks or more. Jones never had a clue how to run a team.

SFCityBear said:

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fat_slice said:

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Fire Knowlton and get a new browser aka Firefox

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...I guess we are finding out how much the players liked Wyking Jones. No matter how many games he lost, or how much criticism we piled on him, this show by the players lets him walk out the door with his head held high, not for coaching, but for his character.

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I am not sure where you are getting this. In the week before Wyking Jones was fired, it is unclear whether Knowlton was actually planning on retaining Jones, or had possibly made the decision to fire Jones, but was in the process of obtain approvals, and could not announce the firing publicly. Either way, in that time when it appeared that Jones might be retained, McNeill announced his desire to transfer, and there were indications that other players were not happy, and might have forced Knowlton's hand to fire Jones with threats of transferring.

It may be true that the players are not happy with the current situation, but I don't think there is any indication that they would have been happier if Jones was retained. They might have been happier with a different replacement, but everything I heard in the week leading up to his firing is that the players were not happy with the prospects of Jones returning, either. I do think they liked Wyking as a person, and I agree with you that they continued to play hard for him through the end of the year, but I don't think they wanted him back as coach, and I think there could have been similar potential transfers had Jones returned.

LOUMFSG2 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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fat_slice said:

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Fire Knowlton and get a new browser aka Firefox

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...I guess we are finding out how much the players liked Wyking Jones. No matter how many games he lost, or how much criticism we piled on him, this show by the players lets him walk out the door with his head held high, not for coaching, but for his character.

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I am not sure where you are getting this. In the week before Wyking Jones was fired, it is unclear whether Knowlton was actually planning on retaining Jones, or had possibly made the decision to fire Jones, but was in the process of obtain approvals, and could not announce the firing publicly. Either way, in that time when it appeared that Jones might be retained, McNeill announced his desire to transfer, and there were indications that other players were not happy, and might have forced Knowlton's hand to fire Jones with threats of transferring.

It may be true that the players are not happy with the current situation, but I don't think there is any indication that they would have been happier if Jones was retained. They might have been happier with a different replacement, but everything I heard in the week leading up to his firing is that the players were not happy with the prospects of Jones returning, either. I do think they liked Wyking as a person, and I agree with you that they continued to play hard for him through the end of the year, but I don't think they wanted him back as coach, and I think there could have been similar potential transfers had Jones returned.

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These players were recruited by Jones, they came to play for him. The sophomores stayed despite that first year. The freshmen came despite it. I highly doubt we would have seen the defections we are seeing. We will never know. Expectations for next year were low and I think they understood getting rid of Jones and were open to seeing who the new coach would be. Having met Fox, checked out his record, asked around, they voted with their feet.

calumnus said:

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LOUMFSG2 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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fat_slice said:

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Fire Knowlton and get a new browser aka Firefox

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...I guess we are finding out how much the players liked Wyking Jones. No matter how many games he lost, or how much criticism we piled on him, this show by the players lets him walk out the door with his head held high, not for coaching, but for his character.

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I am not sure where you are getting this. In the week before Wyking Jones was fired, it is unclear whether Knowlton was actually planning on retaining Jones, or had possibly made the decision to fire Jones, but was in the process of obtain approvals, and could not announce the firing publicly. Either way, in that time when it appeared that Jones might be retained, McNeill announced his desire to transfer, and there were indications that other players were not happy, and might have forced Knowlton's hand to fire Jones with threats of transferring.

It may be true that the players are not happy with the current situation, but I don't think there is any indication that they would have been happier if Jones was retained. They might have been happier with a different replacement, but everything I heard in the week leading up to his firing is that the players were not happy with the prospects of Jones returning, either. I do think they liked Wyking as a person, and I agree with you that they continued to play hard for him through the end of the year, but I don't think they wanted him back as coach, and I think there could have been similar potential transfers had Jones returned.

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These players were recruited by Jones, they came to play for him. The sophomores stayed despite that first year. The freshmen came despite it. I highly doubt we would have seen the defections we are seeing. We will never know. Expectations for next year were low and I think they understood getting rid of Jones and were open to seeing who the new coach would be. Having met Fox, checked out his record, asked around, they voted with their feet.

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They haven't actually voted yet. More like they registered to vote.

I hope none of them come back. I'm sure there are many programs eager to place them in their starting line up, especially Dyson. Let's get players that want to be here.

I thought I was being kind of ridiculous when I started this thread, but the news from the premium just confirmed that I was 100% right.

Adding:
I actually feel stupid for caring now. I guess that is what being a fan is: insanity.

I wish I could quit being a Cal fan.

LOUMFSG2 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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fat_slice said:

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Fire Knowlton and get a new browser aka Firefox

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...I guess we are finding out how much the players liked Wyking Jones. No matter how many games he lost, or how much criticism we piled on him, this show by the players lets him walk out the door with his head held high, not for coaching, but for his character.

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I am not sure where you are getting this. In the week before Wyking Jones was fired, it is unclear whether Knowlton was actually planning on retaining Jones, or had possibly made the decision to fire Jones, but was in the process of obtain approvals, and could not announce the firing publicly. Either way, in that time when it appeared that Jones might be retained, McNeill announced his desire to transfer, and there were indications that other players were not happy, and might have forced Knowlton's hand to fire Jones with threats of transferring.

It may be true that the players are not happy with the current situation, but I don't think there is any indication that they would have been happier if Jones was retained. They might have been happier with a different replacement, but everything I heard in the week leading up to his firing is that the players were not happy with the prospects of Jones returning, either. I do think they liked Wyking as a person, and I agree with you that they continued to play hard for him through the end of the year, but I don't think they wanted him back as coach, and I think there could have been similar potential transfers had Jones returned.

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Well, you've heard more than I have, so maybe so. All I read for Cal info is this Bear Insider forum. Maybe I misread.

parentswerebears said:

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I thought I was being kind of ridiculous when I started this thread, but the news from the premium just confirmed that I was 100% right.

Adding:
I actually feel stupid for caring now. I guess that is what being a fan is: insanity.

I wish I could quit being a Cal fan.

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Unreal.

Civil Bear said:

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parentswerebears said:

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I thought I was being kind of ridiculous when I started this thread, but the news from the premium just confirmed that I was 100% right.

Adding:
I actually feel stupid for caring now. I guess that is what being a fan is: insanity.

I wish I could quit being a Cal fan.

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Unreal.

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Yah more "news" (and with this program what kind of news do you think it is) to come lol.

The title of this thread really rings true if you look from the 40,000 foot level: Since Ike was president, no Cal FB, MBB, or WBB team has ever won an outright or tiebreaking regular season conference title; no MBB or WBB team has ever won a conference tournament; and no FB team has gone to the recent conference title game much less to the Rose Bowl. Notwithstanding that we have had a small handful of teams we can be proud of, e.g. Mike Pawlawski's #8 ranked FB team, Jason Kidd's MBB upset of Duke, Layshia Clarendon's final four WBB team, this is utterly pathetic. I think all this needs to be somehow analyzed and redesigned from the ground up.

polarbear said:

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The title of this thread really rings true if you look from the 40,000 foot level: Since Ike was president, no Cal FB, MBB, or WBB team has ever won an outright or tiebreaking regular season conference title; no MBB or WBB team has ever won a conference tournament; and no FB team has gone to the recent conference title game much less to the Rose Bowl. Notwithstanding that we have had a small handful of teams we can be proud of, e.g. Mike Pawlawski's #8 ranked FB team, Jason Kidd's MBB upset of Duke, Layshia Clarendon's final four WBB team, this is utterly pathetic. I think all this needs to be somehow analyzed and redesigned from the ground up.

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Cal Men's Basketball 2008-2009 were outright conference champions.

parentswerebears said:

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I thought I was being kind of ridiculous when I started this thread, but the news from the premium just confirmed that I was 100% right.

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I know you can't reveal much to those of us in the cheap seats, but can you tell us WHEN the other shoe(s) might drop?

Not sure. Just one of the assistant coaches. Fox foxed up on who he retained.

parentswerebears said:

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Not sure. Just one of the assistant coaches. Fox foxed up on who he retained.

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What the Fox are you trying to say here?

Exactly as it sounds.

parentswerebears said:

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Not sure. Just one of the assistant coaches. Fox foxed up on who he retained.

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Thanks for that. I know almost nothing about the assistants so I haven't worried about that aspect. Unless there's some scandal.

For a dollar, I was able to see but not comment on this fox up of who he kept as an assistant.

parentswerebears said:

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For a dollar, I was able to see but not comment on this fox up of who he kept as an assistant.

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Was it Wyking Jones? Mike Williams? I think I'll save the dollar.

parentswerebears said:

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Exactly as it sounds.

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Marty Wilson is being retained.

LOL at thinking that is "precious premium info."

Why would you keep the guy responsible for our horrible defense?

oskidunker said:

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Why would you keep the guy responsible for our horrible defense?

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They both coached under Tom Asbury.

I assume it's supposed to stay there until it's either public or one of the admins post it here.

oskidunker said:

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Why would you keep the guy responsible for our horrible defense?

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To play devil's advocate, the defense was the part of our game that improved, towards the end of the season. Maybe it took a few months for Coach Wilson's defensive wizardry to sink in, what with the roster being so young.

parentswerebears said:

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I don't even know what to think at this point. Is this a good thing to lose all of your players when you were one of the worst teams in the NCAA? Who is going to take their place? How long does Fox stay? Does Cal even want basketball anymore? I don't know. Do I even care?

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I'm not sure what people expected. Hiring Jones was a HORRIBLE decision and it destroyed the program. When Martin (who himself was a poor coach) left, there was a window of opportunity to upgrade the program. Instead it went in the toilet.

After two years too many of this clown show, Cal moved on. But it's not like Cal can just erase the damage. Players who have played on the worst teams in Cal history are leaving. Frankly, I have a hard time seeing anyone on this team who deserves a scholarship, so good. Let the deadwood go. (I can't imagine who would want them.)

Will the team magically fill the void and be awesome next season? No, but it's not like we'd notice the difference, considering how these players have played the past two years. They were bad. They were all bad. So what if Cal has a bad season next year, they had two bad seasons after a mediocre season, so it's not like we're losing blue chips here. Program's already in the toilet, can't really get worse from here.

Worst case, Cal has another bad season but at least they finally did something about the disaster of a HC, instead of having to sit through another lousy year and do this in 2020-21. Then Cal can start recruiting players that can actually play, instead of a team that looked like a bad JC team, get back to giving schollies to real Pac 12 scholarship players instead of whoever will agree to play basketball at Cal.

Martin left the program in bad shape. Jones took it all the way to the bottom. We can thank a lot of people for that mess, most of whom aren't working at Cal anymore. It's long past time to clean house and make a Cal scholarship mean something again.

Uthaithani said:

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Will the team magically fill the void and be awesome next season? No, but it's not like we'd notice the difference, considering how these players have played the past two years. They were bad. They were all bad. So what if Cal has a bad season next year, they had two bad seasons after a mediocre season, so it's not like we're losing blue chips here.

Worst case, Cal has another bad season but at least they finally did something about the disaster of a HC, instead of having to sit through another lousy year and do this in 2020-21. Then Cal can start recruiting players that can actually play, instead of a team that looked like a bad JC team, get back to giving schollies to real Pac 12 scholarship players instead of whoever will agree to play basketball at Cal.

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Amen, brother. You speak the cold, hard truth.

Uthaithani said:

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parentswerebears said:

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I don't even know what to think at this point. Is this a good thing to lose all of your players when you were one of the worst teams in the NCAA? Who is going to take their place? How long does Fox stay? Does Cal even want basketball anymore? I don't know. Do I even care?

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I'm not sure what people expected. Hiring Jones was a HORRIBLE decision and it destroyed the program. When Martin (who himself was a poor coach) left, there was a window of opportunity to upgrade the program. Instead it went in the toilet.

After two years too many of this clown show, Cal moved on. But it's not like Cal can just erase the damage. Players who have played on the worst teams in Cal history are leaving. Frankly, I have a hard time seeing anyone on this team who deserves a scholarship, so good. Let the deadwood go. (I can't imagine who would want them.)

Will the team magically fill the void and be awesome next season? No, but it's not like we'd notice the difference, considering how these players have played the past two years. They were bad. They were all bad. So what if Cal has a bad season next year, they had two bad seasons after a mediocre season, so it's not like we're losing blue chips here. Program's already in the toilet, can't really get worse from here.

Worst case, Cal has another bad season but at least they finally did something about the disaster of a HC, instead of having to sit through another lousy year and do this in 2020-21. Then Cal can start recruiting players that can actually play, instead of a team that looked like a bad JC team, get back to giving schollies to real Pac 12 scholarship players instead of whoever will agree to play basketball at Cal.

Martin left the program in bad shape. Jones took it all the way to the bottom. We can thank a lot of people for that mess, most of whom aren't working at Cal anymore. It's long past time to clean house and make a Cal scholarship mean something again.

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What in Fox's past makes you think he can do that? His greatest success was taking over a 25 win Nevada team with a ton of freshman talent brought in by the prior coach and winning with them for the next few years and gradually declining with his own recruits before taking over a Georgia team and taking them nowhere for 9 years. Worst case is not another bad season, worst case is multiple bad seasons and another $multimillion buyout , or worse building to mediocre and getting an extension with boring, mediocre basketball and no NCAA tournament appearances for the next 7 years as interest in Cal basketball declines to zero.

I'm going to say, on record here, that I am feeling more optimistic after recent announcements. Vanover returning and A transfer Big will make me feel so much better. I really want to see what Connor can do in blue and gold.

parentswerebears said:

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I'm going to say, on record here, that I am feeling more optimistic after recent announcements. Vanover returning and A transfer Big will make me feel so much better. I really want to see what Connor can do in blue and gold.

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Working backwards:

Why does it never seem to fail that someone posts something like this we get bad news? This time within 10 minutes.

You aren't the only one with the "If X then I'll feel really good" construction. I honestly don't understand that. We are where we are. I'll feel awesome about football if we get a top 5 transfer at QB. It's not going to happen, but I'll feel awesome about it.

Then, honestly asking. Not challenging. What recent announcements are making you more optimistic and why? I haven't seen anything unexpected or that seemed like major stories.