How Good Was Julius Erving REALLY?

15,650 Views | 104 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by concernedparent
bearister
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"1) if old tymers could palm the ball (they can't today, but whatever), they'd be just as good as modern era players?"

Did I misinterpret your statement above when I took it to mean they don't allow palming while dribbling in the modern game?

Harden would have been an All Star in any era but in the 60's and 70's he would have taken fewer trips to the line because the refs let the big men own the paint so all his flops would be for naught.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/2/6/16047014/what-happened-to-the-nba-enforcer-2ea97992e534
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BearSD
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SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

BEARUPINDC said:

BearSD said:

bearister said:

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.


If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.
Maybe so, but if any outstanding offensive player of today played back an earlier era, say pre-1980, he would foul out of games just as early, mostly on charging calls. The game is different now, and the players all learn the skills to play the game by the rules of the game in that era.
Steph and Klay are going to foul out on charging calls? Yeah, no. Put down that bottle of Haterade.
TheSouseFamily
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bearister said:

Ed Gray and Tremaine Fowlkes were Harlem Globetrotters.


https://www.harlemglobetrotters.com/roster/harlem-globetrotters-all-time-roster


Monty Buckley too.
BearlyCareAnymore
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SFCityBear said:

ClayK said:

Every generation thinks what was going on when its members were young is superior to what's going on now ...

Go back to the '60s, and fans then complained about the "modern" style and how things were much better in the '50s.

And it's not just sports -- it's everything. "The good old days" were always better, despite the fact that by almost every metric, "today" is better (life expectancy, infant mortality, quality of life, and on and on and on).

Of course, if the good old days were really better, then life in 1890 was better than life now ...
Clay,

I agree with you on the 1960s, for Cal sports at least. Our basketball and football teams were not as good as in the 1950s. Many, many things are better, but I caution you on saying everything is better today.

There are more people working than ever, but there are more homeless than ever. More drug addicts too. The traffic is more congested. People have less social skills and there are more arguments. There seems to be more hate around, or at least it is more visible. A lot of violence, mass killings, daily murders in big cities, race-baiting and race-hating. Cars are better, but they don't look as good - I can't tell from another. The dress code today seems to be to look poor. They sell jeans complete with dirt and holes in the fabric. Everything today is much more expensive, and in the Bay Area, if you are middle class, you will have trouble finding a house. If you are poor, forget it. We have more and more laws, but not enough police to enforce them. I think that as a society, we still can stand some improvement.
The rate of violent crime and homicides has been cut in half in the last 30 years, including in the big cities. Homeless were prevalent before, but they were not tolerated in town so they stayed on the outskirts of town and near railways. The poverty rate has been cut by about a third since the 50's. I find it hard to buy that race hating is higher now than in the prime of segregation and the KKK.

Don't confuse the rate at which these things are covered on television or the internet for an actual increase.
bearister
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TheSouseFamily said:

bearister said:

Ed Gray and Tremaine Fowlkes were Harlem Globetrotters.


https://www.harlemglobetrotters.com/roster/harlem-globetrotters-all-time-roster


Monty Buckley too.


....and several Cal Gold Squad members made significant contributions to the Washington Generals over the years.

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ClayK
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OaktownBear said:

SFCityBear said:

ClayK said:

Every generation thinks what was going on when its members were young is superior to what's going on now ...

Go back to the '60s, and fans then complained about the "modern" style and how things were much better in the '50s.

And it's not just sports -- it's everything. "The good old days" were always better, despite the fact that by almost every metric, "today" is better (life expectancy, infant mortality, quality of life, and on and on and on).

Of course, if the good old days were really better, then life in 1890 was better than life now ...
Clay,

I agree with you on the 1960s, for Cal sports at least. Our basketball and football teams were not as good as in the 1950s. Many, many things are better, but I caution you on saying everything is better today.

There are more people working than ever, but there are more homeless than ever. More drug addicts too. The traffic is more congested. People have less social skills and there are more arguments. There seems to be more hate around, or at least it is more visible. A lot of violence, mass killings, daily murders in big cities, race-baiting and race-hating. Cars are better, but they don't look as good - I can't tell from another. The dress code today seems to be to look poor. They sell jeans complete with dirt and holes in the fabric. Everything today is much more expensive, and in the Bay Area, if you are middle class, you will have trouble finding a house. If you are poor, forget it. We have more and more laws, but not enough police to enforce them. I think that as a society, we still can stand some improvement.
The rate of violent crime and homicides has been cut in half in the last 30 years, including in the big cities. Homeless were prevalent before, but they were not tolerated in town so they stayed on the outskirts of town and near railways. The poverty rate has been cut by about a third since the 50's. I find it hard to buy that race hating is higher now than in the prime of segregation and the KKK.

Don't confuse the rate at which these things are covered on television or the internet for an actual increase.
And there are more homeless because there are more people ... I'm not convinced that the percentage of homeless is significantly greater now than 20 years ago, though I would believe it's higher. But a tipping point in raw numbers has been reached, and the visibility has changed.

Again, "the good old days" are considered good generally because the speaker was younger.

I was talking to a fellow even older than me who was claiming that "We never had seat belts and we're still alive." No kidding ... the dead ones aren't around to brag.
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

Modern NBA players don't palm the ball while dribbling? Here is an isolation shot of Harden mid dribble:


Nah, there was a time-out, and he was just tossing the ball to the referee, right?
ncbears
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TheSouseFamily said:

bearister said:

Ed Gray and Tremaine Fowlkes were Harlem Globetrotters.


https://www.harlemglobetrotters.com/roster/harlem-globetrotters-all-time-roster


Monty Buckley too.
and Solomon Hughes
calbearinamaze
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GBear4Life said:

Maravich maybe could be a good Globe Trotter
I Globetrotters did offer Pete $1,000,000 for one year. He turned it down

What isn't so widely known is that the Washington Generals offered him $100.00 - bus-fare.

Speaking of the Generals: 2017 was the first year they participated in the draft. Their top
three picks were:

Lavar Ball
Ryan Lochte and
Coner McGregor

Gotta love that organization.

http://www.washingtongenerals.com/news/2017-draft-results
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Well you know they've got a hell of a band
SFCityBear
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BearSD said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

BEARUPINDC said:

BearSD said:

bearister said:

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.


If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.
Maybe so, but if any outstanding offensive player of today played back an earlier era, say pre-1980, he would foul out of games just as early, mostly on charging calls. The game is different now, and the players all learn the skills to play the game by the rules of the game in that era.
Steph and Klay are going to foul out on charging calls? Yeah, no. Put down that bottle of Haterade.

You make a very good point, as Steph and Klay are two who don't often if ever commit what is called charging, as both are not what I'd call physically aggressive players willing to create contact, and control that contact to gain an advantage. I was thinking more of a player like Lebron James, who is so skilled he seldom has to charge, but on occasion he will crash into a player enabling him to score over a player who is blocking his path to the hoop. I've seen him do it a hundred times if I've seen it once, and he never got called for a charge, at least while I was watching. Now with the ridiculous little artificial semi-circle painted on the floor, Lebron's charge, which before was a potential offensive foul, will definitely not be called on him.

Curry, however, if he were to try an play the game by the old rules, would have to learn to dribble the ball without palming it, or he would be ineffective in those games. If he played the way he does now, he would potentially get called for carrying the ball maybe 40-50 times a game, and referees would not stand for that, nor would his coach, and he'd be given a lecture to stop dribbling that way, because it was slowing the game down with all the violations. I remember playing a game in the 6th grade, where I tried defending a quicker player by arm guarding him. The ref called a foul on me for holding. I did it again, and he called another foul. I did it a third time, and the ref called a foul again. Then he went over to my coach and said, "If you want SFCity to play past the first quarter, you need to tell him that is a foul, and I will foul him out if he keeps doing it." Coach sat me down for the rest of the first half, and I never committed that foul again in my life. And you get some of those old time refs like Ernie Filiberti, or Bill Bussenius, they will be ready to call a palming violation on a player 40 times to make a point and control the game, even if that player is a fabulous player like Steph Curry.

A gross example would be a player from an in-between generation, Shaquille O'Neal, who charged all the time, but was seldom called for it. He was also a highly skilled player with great footwork, strength, and touch. But he ran over everybody. Even though they never played, Bill Russell had lots of respect for Shaq. He was asked how he would play him, and Bill said he would make him run, wear him out physically. Shaq weighed at least 325 and Russell weighed 220, and Russell said a man carrying that much weight would tire more easily if they ran, so Russell would control the pace of the game and make Shaq run.

We need to listen to the older players along with the modern players when they describe how to play the game. Oscar Robertson was pilloried when he said no one today knows how to guard Steph Curry: pick him up in the backcourt and harass him, get in his face. You can't do that so easily today because the rules favor the offensive player and handicap the defender. The NBA and NCAA want more offense. Oscar would not be able to hand check or block Curry's path. Oscar was theoretically right, but he does not consider that the rules of the game have changed. Oscar was a great player, but in order for him to play in today's game, he would have to learn how to palm the ball, carry it, if he wanted to be effective.

I hope this clarifies for you what I am saying, and it can't be said in a tweet. Many of the great players of any generation could play in the other generation's time, but only the ones who could adapt to the different rules by which the two games are played. You don't have to agree with it, just understand my point of view.

As for your comment about me hating players or posters, that is lie. I hate no one, certainly not a basketball player of any generation. I was responding to a poster's hyperbole ridiculing another great Hall of Fame Player, Wes Unseld, with my own hyperbole to ridicule his comment. If I ever say anything complimentary about a basketball player who played before the time of Jason Kidd, I attract the hate-mongers as much as flypaper attracts flies. You've won a spot on my ignore list, and I'll miss your educational comments, but not your personally derogatory ones. Those only weaken or wreck any poster's arguments.

Big C
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SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

BEARUPINDC said:

BearSD said:

bearister said:

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.


If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.
Maybe so, but if any outstanding offensive player of today played back an earlier era, say pre-1980, he would foul out of games just as early, mostly on charging calls. The game is different now, and the players all learn the skills to play the game by the rules of the game in that era.
Steph and Klay are going to foul out on charging calls? Yeah, no. Put down that bottle of Haterade.

You make a very good point, as Steph and Klay are two who don't often if ever commit what is called charging, as both are not what I'd call physically aggressive players willing to create contact, and control that contact to gain an advantage. I was thinking more of a player like Lebron James, who is so skilled he seldom has to charge, but on occasion he will crash into a player enabling him to score over a player who is blocking his path to the hoop. I've seen him do it a hundred times if I've seen it once, and he never got called for a charge, at least while I was watching. Now with the ridiculous little artificial semi-circle painted on the floor, Lebron's charge, which before was a potential offensive foul, will definitely not be called on him.

Curry, however, if he were to try an play the game by the old rules, would have to learn to dribble the ball without palming it, or he would be ineffective in those games. If he played the way he does now, he would potentially get called for carrying the ball maybe 40-50 times a game, and referees would not stand for that, nor would his coach, and he'd be given a lecture to stop dribbling that way, because it was slowing the game down with all the violations. I remember playing a game in the 6th grade, where I tried defending a quicker player by arm guarding him. The ref called a foul on me for holding. I did it again, and he called another foul. I did it a third time, and the ref called a foul again. Then he went over to my coach and said, "If you want SFCity to play past the first quarter, you need to tell him that is a foul, and I will foul him out if he keeps doing it." Coach sat me down for the rest of the first half, and I never committed that foul again in my life. And you get some of those old time refs like Ernie Filiberti, or Bill Bussenius, they will be ready to call a palming violation on a player 40 times to make a point and control the game, even if that player is a fabulous player like Steph Curry.

A gross example would be a player from an in-between generation, Shaquille O'Neal, who charged all the time, but was seldom called for it. He was also a highly skilled player with great footwork, strength, and touch. But he ran over everybody. Even though they never played, Bill Russell had lots of respect for Shaq. He was asked how he would play him, and Bill said he would make him run, wear him out physically. Shaq weighed at least 325 and Russell weighed 220, and Russell said a man carrying that much weight would tire more easily if they ran, so Russell would control the pace of the game and make Shaq run.

We need to listen to the older players along with the modern players when they describe how to play the game. Oscar Robertson was pilloried when he said no one today knows how to guard Steph Curry: pick him up in the backcourt and harass him, get in his face. You can't do that so easily today because the rules favor the offensive player and handicap the defender. The NBA and NCAA want more offense. Oscar would not be able to hand check or block Curry's path. Oscar was theoretically right, but he does not consider that the rules of the game have changed. Oscar was a great player, but in order for him to play in today's game, he would have to learn how to palm the ball, carry it, if he wanted to be effective.

I hope this clarifies for you what I am saying, and it can't be said in a tweet. Many of the great players of any generation could play in the other generation's time, but only the ones who could adapt to the different rules by which the two games are played. You don't have to agree with it, just understand my point of view.

As for your comment about me hating players or posters, that is lie. I hate no one, certainly not a basketball player of any generation. I was responding to a poster's hyperbole ridiculing another great Hall of Fame Player, Wes Unseld, with my own hyperbole to ridicule his comment. If I ever say anything complimentary about a basketball player who played before the time of Jason Kidd, I attract the hate-mongers as much as flypaper attracts flies. You've won a spot on my ignore list, and I'll miss your educational comments, but not your personally derogatory ones. Those only weaken or wreck any poster's arguments.



I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
SFCityBear
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Big C said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

BEARUPINDC said:

BearSD said:

bearister said:

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.


If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.
Maybe so, but if any outstanding offensive player of today played back an earlier era, say pre-1980, he would foul out of games just as early, mostly on charging calls. The game is different now, and the players all learn the skills to play the game by the rules of the game in that era.
Steph and Klay are going to foul out on charging calls? Yeah, no. Put down that bottle of Haterade.

You make a very good point, as Steph and Klay are two who don't often if ever commit what is called charging, as both are not what I'd call physically aggressive players willing to create contact, and control that contact to gain an advantage. I was thinking more of a player like Lebron James, who is so skilled he seldom has to charge, but on occasion he will crash into a player enabling him to score over a player who is blocking his path to the hoop. I've seen him do it a hundred times if I've seen it once, and he never got called for a charge, at least while I was watching. Now with the ridiculous little artificial semi-circle painted on the floor, Lebron's charge, which before was a potential offensive foul, will definitely not be called on him.

Curry, however, if he were to try an play the game by the old rules, would have to learn to dribble the ball without palming it, or he would be ineffective in those games. If he played the way he does now, he would potentially get called for carrying the ball maybe 40-50 times a game, and referees would not stand for that, nor would his coach, and he'd be given a lecture to stop dribbling that way, because it was slowing the game down with all the violations. I remember playing a game in the 6th grade, where I tried defending a quicker player by arm guarding him. The ref called a foul on me for holding. I did it again, and he called another foul. I did it a third time, and the ref called a foul again. Then he went over to my coach and said, "If you want SFCity to play past the first quarter, you need to tell him that is a foul, and I will foul him out if he keeps doing it." Coach sat me down for the rest of the first half, and I never committed that foul again in my life. And you get some of those old time refs like Ernie Filiberti, or Bill Bussenius, they will be ready to call a palming violation on a player 40 times to make a point and control the game, even if that player is a fabulous player like Steph Curry.

A gross example would be a player from an in-between generation, Shaquille O'Neal, who charged all the time, but was seldom called for it. He was also a highly skilled player with great footwork, strength, and touch. But he ran over everybody. Even though they never played, Bill Russell had lots of respect for Shaq. He was asked how he would play him, and Bill said he would make him run, wear him out physically. Shaq weighed at least 325 and Russell weighed 220, and Russell said a man carrying that much weight would tire more easily if they ran, so Russell would control the pace of the game and make Shaq run.

We need to listen to the older players along with the modern players when they describe how to play the game. Oscar Robertson was pilloried when he said no one today knows how to guard Steph Curry: pick him up in the backcourt and harass him, get in his face. You can't do that so easily today because the rules favor the offensive player and handicap the defender. The NBA and NCAA want more offense. Oscar would not be able to hand check or block Curry's path. Oscar was theoretically right, but he does not consider that the rules of the game have changed. Oscar was a great player, but in order for him to play in today's game, he would have to learn how to palm the ball, carry it, if he wanted to be effective.

I hope this clarifies for you what I am saying, and it can't be said in a tweet. Many of the great players of any generation could play in the other generation's time, but only the ones who could adapt to the different rules by which the two games are played. You don't have to agree with it, just understand my point of view.

As for your comment about me hating players or posters, that is lie. I hate no one, certainly not a basketball player of any generation. I was responding to a poster's hyperbole ridiculing another great Hall of Fame Player, Wes Unseld, with my own hyperbole to ridicule his comment. If I ever say anything complimentary about a basketball player who played before the time of Jason Kidd, I attract the hate-mongers as much as flypaper attracts flies. You've won a spot on my ignore list, and I'll miss your educational comments, but not your personally derogatory ones. Those only weaken or wreck any poster's arguments.



I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
Big C,

You're a better man than I am.

SFCityBear
bearmanpg
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Eventually SFCB will have everyone who dares to disagree with him on his ignore list...very open minded of him...He can believe, in his cocoon, that he is only behind professional analysts Brad Duggan, Mike Montgomery, Ben Braun and Bill Walton in his commentary...I disagree...if he were so knowledgeable, he would probably been able to make a few dollars spouting his beliefs.....I proudly wear my "ignore list" moniker....SFCB is not too much older than I am but I understand that players today are better than players in the bygone era...The size of the talent pool alone makes his arguments inconceivable....Oh, and BTW, I have zero on my ignore list also....
Civil Bear
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Big C said:




I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
I've got a couple, but only for those that can't help insert gratuitous political comments.

Surprisingly SFCity is not on my iggy list. Like with car wrecks, I like to take a peek without slowing down to see how bad it is.
Yogi011
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Civil Bear said:

Big C said:




I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
I've got a couple, but only for those that can't help insert gratuitous political comments.

Surprisingly SFCity is not on my iggy list. Like with car wrecks, I like to take a peek without slowing down to see how bad it is.
Ignore lists are for pansies. It doesn't take much effort to just scroll past something you don't want to read, though in SFCity's case it takes double to triple the scrolls I would normally need.
MSaviolives
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The only ones I have ignored are a couple of posters who just can't stop with shtick- the "strong" caveman talk guy and the guy who relentlessly attacked the basketball coach while refusing to say the coach's name. Just too annoying. The latter came off my list when we got our new coach because I figured the shtick was over.

This does make me wonder who the most ignored posters have been and are currently-it would be an interesting statistic.
cal83dls79
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BearNakedLadies said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:




I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
I've got a couple, but only for those that can't help insert gratuitous political comments.

Surprisingly SFCity is not on my iggy list. Like with car wrecks, I like to take a peek without slowing down to see how bad it is.
Ignore lists are for pansies. It doesn't take much effort to just scroll past something you don't want to read, though in SFCity's case it takes double to triple the scrolls I would normally need.
carpal tunnel syndrome is real and my thumbs ache after a SF City defense of Bill Bradley and others. Give him cred, he's a bull dog. Would have liked him on my team in the day.
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
SFCityBear
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BearNakedLadies said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:




I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
I've got a couple, but only for those that can't help insert gratuitous political comments.

Surprisingly SFCity is not on my iggy list. Like with car wrecks, I like to take a peek without slowing down to see how bad it is.
Ignore lists are for pansies. It doesn't take much effort to just scroll past something you don't want to read, though in SFCity's case it takes double to triple the scrolls I would normally need.
The pansies are the ones who hurl insults while hiding behind a screen name. They are not likely to say those things in person to someone's face. As for the long posts, they are not meant for those who usually write nothing more than a tweet in length, and have no more of a span of attention than that of a 3 year old. I'm starting to write short posts sometimes, and I think I caught the disease from having to send text messages. Cell phones are controlling our lives. If you have the time, you might enjoy reading "The Medium is the Message" by Marshall McLuhan. He predicted all this. You probably don't have the time. Few of us do have the time these days to get past the first few sentences of anything.
MSaviolives
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Yes SF. Also vanishing is long form journalism, which my father and journalists referred to "thumb suck" stories. That's why I subscribe to The Athletic. I enjoy your long form posts. You research and bring a long perspective, which I appreciate. Keep it up.
bearister
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SFCityBear said:

..If you have the time, you might enjoy reading "The Medium is the Message" by Marshall McLuhan.....


McLuhan's scene in Annie Hall:

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SFCityBear
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OaktownBear said:



The rate of violent crime and homicides has been cut in half in the last 30 years, including in the big cities. Homeless were prevalent before, but they were not tolerated in town so they stayed on the outskirts of town and near railways. The poverty rate has been cut by about a third since the 50's. I find it hard to buy that race hating is higher now than in the prime of segregation and the KKK.

Don't confuse the rate at which these things are covered on television or the internet for an actual increase.
Up until 2015, violent crime had been steadily dropping for a quarter century, due to proactive policing, and the use of determinate sentencing to lock away criminals. In 2015 and 2016 the homicide rate rose by a total of 20 percent over two years, the highest rise in a quarter century. Overall violent crime rose at 7 percent for each of those years, the largest consecutive rises in a quarter century. In 2016, 4,300 people were shot in Chicagoone person every two hours. The victims were overwhelmingly black. Two dozen children under the age of 12 were shot in Chicago in 2016. Violent crime went down up to 2014, because it was targeted by police, as they took measures to prevent it.

In the meantime, with the police targeting violent crime, other crime rates went up. Property crime, particularly auto break-ins. My city SF has over 50 auto breakins per day. The police can not be everywhere at one time. I walk in the park every day, and it is a rare week that I don't see a car with the window smashed, or broken glass where a breakin occurred. Because police are targeting violent crime, they have little time to pursue much else. Simple stuff like running stop signs or red lights. Most drivers only stop at stop signs if there is another car there ahead of them or they see a cop, which in my town is almost never. There is a big increase in people breaking into the country illegally, and many paying cartels to rent children so they can claim asylum here. That is fraud. The Border Patrol is overwhelmed.

Identity theft is another crime which is rapidly rising. I had my social security number hacked last year, and I was 4 months getting my credit back, after the bank froze the credit line I was living on, and another bank froze a credit card. The Feds refused to issue a new SSN, so I will have a compromised SSN for life. They told me to make a police report. At the station, the cop there told me he wouldn't take my report, and I would have to work on the case myself. I went to a 2nd station, and the cop there refused to take my report. Two days later, she called back and agreed to take a report only, nothing else. I've paid $99 a year for 10 years to Lifelock, and they did nothing to prevent the theft, or to help recover my identity. I was fortunate (so far) not to lose any of my savings.

As for the homeless, you are off base if you think the homeless were prevalent in back in my youth. There were a few around, but not many. They lived in the cities, and in SF, it was the corner of 3rd street and Howard street, and as they grew in numbers, they branched out to 4th and Mission or 6th street, and later the Tenderloin, all very seedy areas. Many were mentally ill, many were winos, and practically none of them worked, or would work. They did not live in railyards. Those who did were called hobos, and there is a world of difference between hobo and a bum, or homeless person. Those men and women who hopped freight cars were hobos, not "homeless" in the sense of the word today. Hobos were itinerant workers, who rode freight cars from town to town in search of work. If a hobo wanted a meal or lodging, he would offer to work for it. Most usually carried a fresh clean change of clothes, in case they had a chance to apply for a job. What we call "homeless" today, were called "bums" back in the day of the hobo. They lived off handouts. Hobos lived mostly by working and by cooperating with each other, with less panhandling. Many did it for the romance and thrill of doing it. Many hobos were killed riding the rails, falling on the tracks, and other accidents. When diesel locomotives replaced steam, the trains became a lot faster, and the cars harder to get on and off.

Many of the homeless today are pretty well off. I was riding BART to Berkeley last year and passed a homeless encampment. They all had tents that looked brand new, like they just bought them at REI. I'm a sometime camper and backpacker, and those tents are better than the ones I own. Here in SF, many homeless own RVs, and it became a problem of where to park them. The city gave them a place. In Sunnyvale, they have the same problem. These people, except for the many addicts and mentally ill among them, are often deadbeats, derelicts, unwilling to work. There is supposedly full employment, but there are "help wanted" signs everywhere, and thousands of jobs available begging for the homeless guy who can, to clean up his act and apply for those jobs.

As for the poverty rate, we have spent what, some $20 trillion in the ghettos of this country, and what do we still have? Ghettos. Is it better for the poor now? They all have cars, TVs, and cell phones, right? Certainly better than third world poor at least, or they would not be breaking through the fence to get in.

Where did I say that race hating was higher now than in the prime of segregation and the KKK? As for segregation, it has taken different forms in its long history in the 19th and 20th centuries, with laws written to protect it and laws to end it, and it still exists to some extent. I really have no idea what you mean by the "prime of segregation". As for the KKK, their peak membership was in the 1920s, way before my time. What I meant was that race-hating is more than at any period I've lived in. I guess the 1960s would be close, maybe worse. The difference today is that blacks are expressing much more hatred of whites than in the 1960s, and many whites on the Left are expressing hatred toward whites who don't agree with them, a sort of self-hatred. And that is new.

How would you know what my sources of news are? I watch and read all that I can, radio, TV, Internet, but with me it is always the old Reagan idea, "Trust, but verify", so I am out and about looking at what is going on, talking with the public and listening to their stories. Neighborhood newspapers publish the police blotter from the neighborhood stations, so that gives an accurate local crime picture. The anecdotal experience is more meaningful than statistics whether it is basketball, crime, or the homeless. 36 people were shot in Chicago over Labor Day weekend, and 7 killed, one of whom was a young basketball player ready to start his freshman year in high school and play basketball, which he will never do now. His family won't listen when we say the crime rate is down.




ClayK
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I have always felt that drop in violent crime was due to the fact that parents in many areas no longer used corporal punishment as much. It used to be hitting kids was not only considered OK, but almost necessary. When that changed, we raised kids who didn't see physical violence as a first or second response to negative situations.

After all, what parents do is what kids believe is "right." If parents hit me, the logic would go, then it's OK for me to hit (or worse) other people.
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

SFCityBear said:

..If you have the time, you might enjoy reading "The Medium is the Message" by Marshall McLuhan.....


McLuhan's scene in Annie Hall:


Bearister does it again!

I wish there was a rent-a-McLuhan service somewhere, and a one for a few other authors I can think of.
SFCityBear
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ClayK said:

I have always felt that drop in violent crime was due to the fact that parents in many areas no longer used corporal punishment as much. It used to be hitting kids was not only considered OK, but almost necessary. When that changed, we raised kids who didn't see physical violence as a first or second response to negative situations.

After all, what parents do is what kids believe is "right." If parents hit me, the logic would go, then it's OK for me to hit (or worse) other people.
It would seem a noble goal to reduce or stop using corporal punishment, but doesn't this seem to be too simple an explanation for the reason violent crime seems to be dropping (except for 2015 and 2016, when there was a 20% uptick)? If it is true, how would we explain the massive increase in violent crime from 1960-1990? Dr. Benjamin Spock (the psychologist and political activist, not the part-Vulcan Spock from Star Trek) published his book on parenting in 1946,which influence the next several generations of parents to be more permissive with their children, and especially to abandon corporal punishment. He is often credited and blamed for the protests of the 1960s and later, many of which eventually turned violent. Generations of parents read Spock's book and followed his teachings.

So when was it that you think hitting kids changed? I really couldn't find any evidence of that, and nothing concurrent with it having stopped in 1990 or so, the time of the highest rate of violent crime. There have been laws passed in most states against using corporal punishment in public schools, but it is not banned from the general public.

There is the racial aspect, as the majority of violent crime is committed by blacks, and in the majority of those crimes the victims are black as well. I saw one small study which purported to show that black parents use corporal punishment more so than white parents. My own opinion is that the increase in violent crime and all crime in the black population is the result of the Welfare State destroying the black family. The access for the poor to a welfare check for a mother and child being based on having no father in the home, and the access to a bigger check with the addition of more children is catastrophic to the black family. Traditionally, the father controls discipline and metes out much of the punishment when needed. With no father in the home, and mother whose hands are full trying to work, raise kids, and make ends meet by herself, she had very little time to read Dr Spock and learn that she should not be using corporal punishment on unruly kids who have no father in the home to keep some discipline. So she metes out the punishment when she has to.

Many violent crimes go unreported, as police departments are understaffed, burdened with paperwork. I think the unreported crimes are increasing as the police do less and less to solve or stop crimes. They are just overwhelmed.

My own parents resorted to corporal punishment as I was more of a delinquent than even they knew. My mother would never spank me, so the punishment was left to my father. It only happened a few times, and they were always fair. Kids understand fair play, I think, and if a punishment is fair and not excessive, it will work to prevent a recurrence. I never became a violent person. Once I was punished in a public school in the 6th grade. In a ball game, I was playing 3rd base, and the ball was hit to me. I tried to throw home, to cut down the runner, but threw the ball too hard and it sailed over the catcher's head and broke a small window. I was called into the principal's office, and she told me I must pay for the window, $1.59. I was afraid to ask my parents for the money. They were poor, and that money would buy most of our groceries for a week. (a loaf of bread was 10 cents) So I went into my piggy bank and counted out 159 pennies and put them in a paper bag. I gave the bag to the principal and when she saw all those pennies, she was furious. She told me to put my hands on her desk, palm down. Then she took a ruler with a metal edge, and beat my hands until all my fingers were cut and bleeding badly. My parents complained to the school and got nowhere. It is not just public schools. My mother was raised in a religious school. One nun often beat her with a switch, and my mother used to hide in the coal bin so she would not have to go to school. The trouble with corporal punishment is not so much the idea, but the fact that some parents and some school officials are sadists, unfortunately. The former should not become parents, and the latter should not be permitted to have any authority in a school for kids. Not much we can do about that.



bearister
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The NBA's All-Decade Teams per Sports Illustrated:

First team: Steph Curry, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, LeBron James.

Second team: Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, Tim Duncan, Draymond Green.

Third team: Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki." Axios
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Civil Bear
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SFCityBear said:


My own parents resorted to corporal punishment as I was more of a delinquent than even they knew. My mother would never spank me, so the punishment was left to my father. It only happened a few times, and they were always fair. Kids understand fair play, I think, and if a punishment is fair and not excessive, it will work to prevent a recurrence. I never became a violent person. Once I was punished in a public school in the 6th grade. In a ball game, I was playing 3rd base, and the ball was hit to me. I tried to throw home, to cut down the runner, but threw the ball too hard and it sailed over the catcher's head and broke a small window. I was called into the principal's office, and she told me I must pay for the window, $1.59. I was afraid to ask my parents for the money. They were poor, and that money would buy most of our groceries for a week. (a loaf of bread was 10 cents) So I went into my piggy bank and counted out 159 pennies and put them in a paper bag. I gave the bag to the principal and when she saw all those pennies, she was furious. She told me to put my hands on her desk, palm down. Then she took a ruler with a metal edge, and beat my hands until all my fingers were cut and bleeding badly. My parents complained to the school and got nowhere. It is not just public schools. My mother was raised in a religious school. One nun often beat her with a switch, and my mother used to hide in the coal bin so she would not have to go to school. The trouble with corporal punishment is not so much the idea, but the fact that some parents and some school officials are sadists, unfortunately. The former should not become parents, and the latter should not be permitted to have any authority in a school for kids. Not much we can do about that.


...and Corn Pop was a bad dude and he ran a bunch of bad boys.
calumnus
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So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
BeachedBear
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calumnus said:

So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
He's a walk-on and still on the roster here on BI. Has he not been on the bench? I haven't been paying attention to that end of the goings-on, but my curiosity is piqued, so I'll keep an eye out tonight.
joe amos yaks
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HoopDreams said:

Like father, like son?




Most excellent. He was thee Doctor . . . Dr. J.
"Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say." - LT
SFCityBear
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BeachedBear said:

calumnus said:

So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
He's a walk-on and still on the roster here on BI. Has he not been on the bench? I haven't been paying attention to that end of the goings-on, but my curiosity is piqued, so I'll keep an eye out tonight.
He's also still on the official roster on calbears.com
Pigskin Pete
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Big C said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

SFCityBear said:

BearSD said:

BEARUPINDC said:

BearSD said:

bearister said:

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.


If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.
Maybe so, but if any outstanding offensive player of today played back an earlier era, say pre-1980, he would foul out of games just as early, mostly on charging calls. The game is different now, and the players all learn the skills to play the game by the rules of the game in that era.
Steph and Klay are going to foul out on charging calls? Yeah, no. Put down that bottle of Haterade.

You make a very good point, as Steph and Klay are two who don't often if ever commit what is called charging, as both are not what I'd call physically aggressive players willing to create contact, and control that contact to gain an advantage. I was thinking more of a player like Lebron James, who is so skilled he seldom has to charge, but on occasion he will crash into a player enabling him to score over a player who is blocking his path to the hoop. I've seen him do it a hundred times if I've seen it once, and he never got called for a charge, at least while I was watching. Now with the ridiculous little artificial semi-circle painted on the floor, Lebron's charge, which before was a potential offensive foul, will definitely not be called on him.

Curry, however, if he were to try an play the game by the old rules, would have to learn to dribble the ball without palming it, or he would be ineffective in those games. If he played the way he does now, he would potentially get called for carrying the ball maybe 40-50 times a game, and referees would not stand for that, nor would his coach, and he'd be given a lecture to stop dribbling that way, because it was slowing the game down with all the violations. I remember playing a game in the 6th grade, where I tried defending a quicker player by arm guarding him. The ref called a foul on me for holding. I did it again, and he called another foul. I did it a third time, and the ref called a foul again. Then he went over to my coach and said, "If you want SFCity to play past the first quarter, you need to tell him that is a foul, and I will foul him out if he keeps doing it." Coach sat me down for the rest of the first half, and I never committed that foul again in my life. And you get some of those old time refs like Ernie Filiberti, or Bill Bussenius, they will be ready to call a palming violation on a player 40 times to make a point and control the game, even if that player is a fabulous player like Steph Curry.

A gross example would be a player from an in-between generation, Shaquille O'Neal, who charged all the time, but was seldom called for it. He was also a highly skilled player with great footwork, strength, and touch. But he ran over everybody. Even though they never played, Bill Russell had lots of respect for Shaq. He was asked how he would play him, and Bill said he would make him run, wear him out physically. Shaq weighed at least 325 and Russell weighed 220, and Russell said a man carrying that much weight would tire more easily if they ran, so Russell would control the pace of the game and make Shaq run.

We need to listen to the older players along with the modern players when they describe how to play the game. Oscar Robertson was pilloried when he said no one today knows how to guard Steph Curry: pick him up in the backcourt and harass him, get in his face. You can't do that so easily today because the rules favor the offensive player and handicap the defender. The NBA and NCAA want more offense. Oscar would not be able to hand check or block Curry's path. Oscar was theoretically right, but he does not consider that the rules of the game have changed. Oscar was a great player, but in order for him to play in today's game, he would have to learn how to palm the ball, carry it, if he wanted to be effective.

I hope this clarifies for you what I am saying, and it can't be said in a tweet. Many of the great players of any generation could play in the other generation's time, but only the ones who could adapt to the different rules by which the two games are played. You don't have to agree with it, just understand my point of view.

As for your comment about me hating players or posters, that is lie. I hate no one, certainly not a basketball player of any generation. I was responding to a poster's hyperbole ridiculing another great Hall of Fame Player, Wes Unseld, with my own hyperbole to ridicule his comment. If I ever say anything complimentary about a basketball player who played before the time of Jason Kidd, I attract the hate-mongers as much as flypaper attracts flies. You've won a spot on my ignore list, and I'll miss your educational comments, but not your personally derogatory ones. Those only weaken or wreck any poster's arguments.



I'm certainly not trying to hijack one of the greatest Julius Erving threads ever to appear on Bear Insider, but my ADHD mind can't help wondering... All y'all, how many posters do you have on your "ignore lists"?

I'll start: Zero
Zero. I just scroll past his old man bull*****
BeachedBear
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SFCityBear said:

BeachedBear said:

calumnus said:

So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
He's a walk-on and still on the roster here on BI. Has he not been on the bench? I haven't been paying attention to that end of the goings-on, but my curiosity is piqued, so I'll keep an eye out tonight.
He's also still on the official roster on calbears.com
He is still on the roster and played in the last minute with the rest of the bench, when we were up 20.
Civil Bear
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BeachedBear said:

SFCityBear said:

BeachedBear said:

calumnus said:

So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
He's a walk-on and still on the roster here on BI. Has he not been on the bench? I haven't been paying attention to that end of the goings-on, but my curiosity is piqued, so I'll keep an eye out tonight.
He's also still on the official roster on calbears.com
He is still on the roster and played in the last minute with the rest of the bench, when we were up 20.

He played a few minutes in the first half too.
Big C
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Civil Bear said:

BeachedBear said:

SFCityBear said:

BeachedBear said:

calumnus said:

So what happened to Jules? Did he transfer? Get cut? Quit the team and is focusing on his studies?
He's a walk-on and still on the roster here on BI. Has he not been on the bench? I haven't been paying attention to that end of the goings-on, but my curiosity is piqued, so I'll keep an eye out tonight.
He's also still on the official roster on calbears.com
He is still on the roster and played in the last minute with the rest of the bench, when we were up 20.

He played a few minutes in the first half too.
A little Jules-Erving-at-Cal recap...

Dude was a freshman 2 yrs ago. Walk-on. How bad could he be though, right? Came in for some garbage time about 2/3 of the way through the year and I said, "Oh. THAT'S how bad he can be."

Maybe he got a bit more garbage time last season, who knows?

Tonight, maybe 2/3 of the way through the first half (NOT garbage time), a new guy comes in, #13. My buddy says, "It's Irving!" (That's how I heard it... I had forgotten all about "Erving".) Then he says, "You know, Julius Erving's son!" I'm like WTH is HE doing in the game?!? Anyway, he played for about a minute or two, then came back in at the end of the game, for another minute of garbage time.

What was he doing in there in the first half? Maybe we'll never know...
oskidunker
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He probably played really hard in practice and or Fox may be cultivating Dr J. Good move either way
Go Bears!
 
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