wednesday toughie at their gym. we will be the underdogs. bradley will need some scoring help.

If we have Freddie Ferrari, we win. bradley or no Bradley.

That's why you need a PG who can score as well as dish. Fox has recruited two players for next year, but neither of them are complete PG's.

Take Bears, the points and wager 3 bitcoin.

helltopay1 said:

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That's why you need a PG who can score as well as dish. Fox has recruited two players for next year, but neither of them are complete PG's.

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I guess the idea is to bring in as many guards as you can, and hope one of them pans out to be a real point guard. They are becoming rare. Either they can dish or they can shoot, but usually not both in the same player. Gone are the days of coach Don Nelson, who said, "Good point guards are a dime a dozen. If your point guard gets hurt, there are plenty in the CBA."

They haven't been pretty but I was encouraged by browns 3s when left open

Perhaps in the off season he puts in a ton of shooting and becomes enough of a threat to open up the court

I'd like to see him start with a pull up or floater which I think will complement his drive game (and of course continue to work on his deep ball)

This team needs a PG to be a scoring threat

Dear Hoops: Wishful thinking I think: when we were kids, you could identify the shooters in the 4th grade--decades later, thge shooters could still shoot while the others still couldn't shoot. fox badly needs to recruit a PG who is a natural shooter.

helltopay1 said:

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Dear Hoops: Wishful thinking I think: when we were kids, you could identify the shooters in the 4th grade--decades later, thge shooters could still shoot while the others still couldn't shoot. fox badly needs to recruit a PG who is a natural shooter.

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That was certainly my experience growing up. You are born with elite hand eye coordination or you aren't. Although I suppose if you were willing to change your mechanics and put in a ton of practice you might be able to go against that rule. Karl Malone did it with his FT shooting.

calgo430 said:

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wednesday toughie at their gym. we will be the underdogs. bradley will need some scoring help.

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University of Hawaii beat the previously undefeated USF several nights ago 85-75. USF's center 7'0" Jimbo Lull had 24 points including 3-4 3FGs, but Hawaii limited the other Dons shooters to 4-17 3FGs, which was Hawaii's game plan along with slowing down the game tempo. Lull is also effective around the basket using his big body so our centers may have their hands full.

Perhaps, ASU who plays the Dons tomorrow night will wear them down.

SanseiBear said:

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calgo430 said:

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wednesday toughie at their gym. we will be the underdogs. bradley will need some scoring help.

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University of Hawaii beat the previously undefeated USF several nights ago 85-75. USF's center 7'0" Jimbo Lull had 24 points including 3-4 3FGs, but Hawaii limited the other Dons shooters to 4-17 3FGs, which was Hawaii's game plan along with slowing down the game tempo. Lull is also effective around the basket using his big body so our centers may have their hands full.

Perhaps, ASU who plays the Dons tomorrow night will wear them down.

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Thanks for this info.

While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

bearmanpg said:

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While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

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I was sort of with you and then you mentioned Jason Kidd. He was a terrible shooter at Cal and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA. What did get better over the years was his free throw shooting.

dear dim: didn't i read somewhere that Kidd became a prolific NBA three-point shooter???? My imagination???But, if true, that would negate my theory to some extent.

helltopay1 said:

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dear dim: didn't i read somewhere that Kidd became a prolific NBA three-point shooter???? My imagination???But, if true, that would negate my theory to some extent.

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Kidd shot .400 overall for his NBA career and .349 from 3PT. He had three seasons in Dallas where he shot well from 3PT but he was never a good shooter.

Just curious dim...who do you consider a good shooter? I don't consider Kidd a great shooter but good, yeah...Kidd was an example of someone who became a good shooter at a later stage in his career...

dimitrig said:

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helltopay1 said:

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dear dim: didn't i read somewhere that Kidd became a prolific NBA three-point shooter???? My imagination???But, if true, that would negate my theory to some extent.

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Kidd shot .400 overall for his NBA career and .349 from 3PT. He had three seasons in Dallas where he shot well from 3PT but he was never a good shooter.

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I remember a few times at Cal where it seemed like he wasn't concentrating and missed some wide open layups. I had followed him a little as kid, and in high school, and had never seen that, so I was stunned , when I saw it at Cal. I think the game just came so easy for Kidd, that he might not always be paying attention. And shooting was not what he was all about, which was setting up teammates and playing shut down defense.

bearmanpg said:

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Just curious dim...who do you consider a good shooter? I don't consider Kidd a great shooter but good, yeah...Kidd was an example of someone who became a good shooter at a later stage in his career...

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I would say guys like JJ Reddick are good shooters and guys like John Stockton and Steph Curry are great shooters.

A guy who shot 40% from the field (35% from 3PT) for his career is not a good shooter. That wouldn't break the top 100 in the NBA this year.

HoopDreams said:

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They haven't been pretty but I was encouraged by browns 3s when left open

Perhaps in the off season he puts in a ton of shooting and becomes enough of a threat to open up the court

I'd like to see him start with a pull up or floater which I think will complement his drive game (and of course continue to work on his deep ball)

This team needs a PG to be a scoring threat

---

my guess is he's a pass first PG who is also being a tentative freshman with his shot. I think there's a decent chance he grows out of this and becomes a more complete PG, starting later this year.

So a difference of 3.5 makes per 100 attempts is the difference between not being a good shooter and being a great shooter.....can't say I agree with that but I do agree that Steph is a great shooter...JJ has better numbers than Stockton but JJ is only a good shooter but Stockton is a great shooter....I can't agree with Stockton being a great shooter as his 3 pt % is under 40...He shot a ton of lay-ups....The original intent of my post was to point out guys who improved their shooting considerably over time....Maybe I wasn't clear in my intent...

bearmanpg said:

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So a difference of 3.5 makes per 100 attempts is the difference between not being a good shooter and being a great shooter.....can't say I agree with that but I do agree that Steph is a great shooter...JJ has better numbers than Stockton but JJ is only a good shooter but Stockton is a great shooter....I can't agree with Stockton being a great shooter as his 3 pt % is under 40...He shot a ton of lay-ups....The original intent of my post was to point out guys who improved their shooting considerably over time....Maybe I wasn't clear in my intent...

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You know, maybe I give Reddick too little credit. I just see him as a spot up shooter and I tend to consider those specialists less valuable. I saw him play a lot for the Clippers and I would have never confused him for Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, or Larry Bird even though he has a higher eFG%.

Stockton's career FG% was 51.5% which is crazy good for a PG. Only modern PG I can think of not named Curry that matches Stockton (has a slightly higher eFG%) is Steve Nash. Mark Price is up there, too. I am probably forgetting someone(s).

As for Kidd, I am not sure there was a consistent trend upward in his shooting ability except at the free throw line. He started out a bad shooter and he finished a bad shooter.

dimitrig said:

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bearmanpg said:

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While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

---

I was sort of with you and then you mentioned Jason Kidd. He was a terrible shooter at Cal and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA. What did get better over the years was his free throw shooting.

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If you say Jason Kidd was a terrible shooter at Cal and a terrible shooter in the NBA, either you are exaggerating, or you have very high standards.

At Cal as a freshman, in 1993, Kidd's FG% was 0.463, above the NCAA average of 0.452. His 3PT% was 0.286, below the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .657, below the NCAA average of .677.

At Cal, as a soph, in 1994, Kidd's shooting improved a lot. His FG% was 0.472, again above the NCAA average of .443, and his 3PT% was 0.362, above the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .692, above the NCAA average of .671.

Kidd was an average shooter in college, compared to all of Div 1 for his two seasons. If we say he was terrible, then we are saying the average player in the NCAA for those two seasons was a terrible shooter, and I don't think many people would say that. And he did improve his shooting during his two years at Cal.

In the NBA, his FG% was lower than average. His 2PT FG% went down from .541 at Cal to .421 for his NBA career. I did not follow him much after Cal, but I suspect he was unable to score inside as much due to defenses with taller and better defenders protecting the rim and defending Kidd. His three point shooting fell off in the NBA as well, and over his first 10 years in the NBA, his 3PT% was .319. However, his 3PT% was better than the NBA average for three of those years, 1997, 1999, and 2005. At that point, Kidd may have been slowing down and was being utilized differently, as he was shooting threes a lot better. In four of his last six seasons he was above the NBA average for 3PT%. His best seasons were 2009 (.406) and 2010 (.425). In his first season, 1995, Kidd shot FTs at .698. By 1998, Kidd had improved and reached his first 80% FT season. He would have 11 out of 19 seasons where his FT% was 80% or higher. In 15 out of 19 seasons, his FT% was above the NBA average.

Compared to his peers:

FG%: Stockton .515, Nash .490, Payton .466, Kidd .400
2PT%: Stockton .541, Nash .518, Payton .501, Kidd .429
3PT%: Nash .428, Stockton .384, Kidd .349, Payton .317
FT%: Nash .904, Stockton .826, Kidd .785, Payton .729

Kidd was not a terrible shooter, just average. And we expected more.

bearmanpg said:

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So a difference of 3.5 makes per 100 attempts is the difference between not being a good shooter and being a great shooter.....can't say I agree with that but I do agree that Steph is a great shooter...JJ has better numbers than Stockton but JJ is only a good shooter but Stockton is a great shooter....I can't agree with Stockton being a great shooter as his 3 pt % is under 40...He shot a ton of lay-ups....The original intent of my post was to point out guys who improved their shooting considerably over time....Maybe I wasn't clear in my intent...

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You mentioned Magic Johnson above.

I would say that Magic really improved his shooting from three and at the line. However,
my enthusiasm is curbed somwhat because:

*His FT% only increased from basically 80% to 90%....which is just not that much of difference
*He failed to average a career triple-double....only a meager 19.5ppg, 11.2apg, 7.2rbg

He worked hard at being the best he could be.....which was exceptional.

SFCityBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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bearmanpg said:

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While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

---

I was sort of with you and then you mentioned Jason Kidd. He was a terrible shooter at Cal and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA. What did get better over the years was his free throw shooting.

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If you say Jason Kidd was a terrible shooter at Cal and a terrible shooter in the NBA, either you are exaggerating, or you have very high standards.

At Cal as a freshman, in 1993, Kidd's FG% was 0.463, above the NCAA average of 0.452. His 3PT% was 0.286, below the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .657, below the NCAA average of .677.

At Cal, as a soph, in 1994, Kidd's shooting improved a lot. His FG% was 0.472, again above the NCAA average of .443, and his 3PT% was 0.362, above the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .692, above the NCAA average of .671.

Kidd was an average shooter in college, compared to all of Div 1 for his two seasons. If we say he was terrible, then we are saying the average player in the NCAA for those two seasons was a terrible shooter, and I don't think many people would say that. And he did improve his shooting during his two years at Cal.

In the NBA, his FG% was lower than average. His 2PT FG% went down from .541 at Cal to .421 for his NBA career. I did not follow him much after Cal, but I suspect he was unable to score inside as much due to defenses with taller and better defenders protecting the rim and defending Kidd. His three point shooting fell off in the NBA as well, and over his first 10 years in the NBA, his 3PT% was .319. However, his 3PT% was better than the NBA average for three of those years, 1997, 1999, and 2005. At that point, Kidd may have been slowing down and was being utilized differently, as he was shooting threes a lot better. In four of his last six seasons he was above the NBA average for 3PT%. His best seasons were 2009 (.406) and 2010 (.425). In his first season, 1995, Kidd shot FTs at .698. By 1998, Kidd had improved and reached his first 80% FT season. He would have 11 out of 19 seasons where his FT% was 80% or higher. In 15 out of 19 seasons, his FT% was above the NBA average.

Compared to his peers:

FG%: Stockton .515, Nash .490, Payton .466, Kidd .400
2PT%: Stockton .541, Nash .518, Payton .501, Kidd .429
3PT%: Nash .428, Stockton .384, Kidd .349, Payton .317
FT%: Nash .904, Stockton .826, Kidd .785, Payton .729

Kidd was not a terrible shooter, just average. And we expected more.


Why are you comparing a PG to all players? Kidd simply just didn't shoot at a level expected of an all-time great guard.

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SFCityBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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bearmanpg said:

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While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

---

I was sort of with you and then you mentioned Jason Kidd. He was a terrible shooter at Cal and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA. What did get better over the years was his free throw shooting.

---

If you say Jason Kidd was a terrible shooter at Cal and a terrible shooter in the NBA, either you are exaggerating, or you have very high standards.

At Cal as a freshman, in 1993, Kidd's FG% was 0.463, above the NCAA average of 0.452. His 3PT% was 0.286, below the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .657, below the NCAA average of .677.

At Cal, as a soph, in 1994, Kidd's shooting improved a lot. His FG% was 0.472, again above the NCAA average of .443, and his 3PT% was 0.362, above the NCAA average of .354. His FT% was .692, above the NCAA average of .671.

Kidd was an average shooter in college, compared to all of Div 1 for his two seasons. If we say he was terrible, then we are saying the average player in the NCAA for those two seasons was a terrible shooter, and I don't think many people would say that. And he did improve his shooting during his two years at Cal.

In the NBA, his FG% was lower than average. His 2PT FG% went down from .541 at Cal to .421 for his NBA career. I did not follow him much after Cal, but I suspect he was unable to score inside as much due to defenses with taller and better defenders protecting the rim and defending Kidd. His three point shooting fell off in the NBA as well, and over his first 10 years in the NBA, his 3PT% was .319. However, his 3PT% was better than the NBA average for three of those years, 1997, 1999, and 2005. At that point, Kidd may have been slowing down and was being utilized differently, as he was shooting threes a lot better. In four of his last six seasons he was above the NBA average for 3PT%. His best seasons were 2009 (.406) and 2010 (.425). In his first season, 1995, Kidd shot FTs at .698. By 1998, Kidd had improved and reached his first 80% FT season. He would have 11 out of 19 seasons where his FT% was 80% or higher. In 15 out of 19 seasons, his FT% was above the NBA average.

Compared to his peers:

FG%: Stockton .515, Nash .490, Payton .466, Kidd .400
2PT%: Stockton .541, Nash .518, Payton .501, Kidd .429
3PT%: Nash .428, Stockton .384, Kidd .349, Payton .317
FT%: Nash .904, Stockton .826, Kidd .785, Payton .729

Kidd was not a terrible shooter, just average. And we expected more.

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JKidd was also a player who gladly threw the court length hail marys at the end of quarters, which didn't help his average. Not saying he was a good shooter--I agree his overall stats made him average for a point guard.

Usf favored by 8.5.

I thought the premise of this topic was that Cal needed a point guard who could shoot. As stated, PGs who are great shooters are really rare. But improving from a bad shooter to a good (not great) shooter may be all he/she (or in this case, Joel Brown) needs because it forces the defender to play close, which opens up other options for the primary PG offensive skills: passing and penetrating. That can have a major impact on the entire offense.

con said:

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Quote:

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Compared to his peers:

FG%: Stockton .515, Nash .490, Payton .466, Kidd .400
2PT%: Stockton .541, Nash .518, Payton .501, Kidd .429
3PT%: Nash .428, Stockton .384, Kidd .349, Payton .317
FT%: Nash .904, Stockton .826, Kidd .785, Payton .729

Kidd was not a terrible shooter, just average. And we expected more.


Why are you comparing a PG to all players? Kidd simply just didn't shoot at a level expected of an all-time great guard.

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Of those four, these are the percentage of total attempts that were three-point attempts (career)

KIDD 36.6 over 60% for each of his last 4 years
NASH 30.6
PAYTON 19.1
STOCKMAN 16.1

STEPH 48.1

concernedparent said:

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Why are you comparing a PG to all players? Kidd simply just didn't shoot at a level expected of an all-time great guard.

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Well, I had to start somewhere. A post here said that "Jason Kidd was a terrible shooter at Cal, and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA." I wanted to defend Kidd against this statement. The poster did not qualify his statement, by defining what terrible meant to him. Whether Jason looked terrible to him while shooting, or whether he was terrible compared to other players, and if so, what players? I took it to mean compared to all the players playing at the same time that Jason played in the NCAA and NBA. You want to compare Jason only to "All-time great guards" Fine, then I would agree with you that he didn't shoot at a level expected of such a guard. But at least you did not say he "was a terrible shooter" for an all-time great guard. At the end of my post, I showed how he compares with the three best point guards of his era in the NBA, which is below them in most shooting categories.

If you want to draw a comparison of Jason Kidd, and be fair to him, the comparison should only be against other point guards, not just against all "guards", shouldn't it? Basketball styles have changed over the decades from the 1930s or so when both guards had equal responsibilities of playmaking and shooting, to the 1950s when one guard was the playmaker or quarterback and the other was primarily a shooter. Eventually the playmaker was called a point guard, and the other guard a shooting guard. A few years ago some shooting guards and small forwards became interchangeable and became wings. Today the game has been revolutionized by the three point shot, to the point where almost every player at every position, unless they are outstanding at something else, must be able to shoot threes well to get playing time. We find centers and power forwards shooting threes, and we find point guards shooting threes. Go into any gym, and all the kids will be shooting threes. When Jason Kidd was growing up in the East Bay, very few kids were primarily shooting threes. They were practicing all kinds of shots. When Kidd arrived at Cal in 1992, the three had been around in college since 1986, but had not been hugely popular compared to today. As Kidd made his way through college, he was so talented that he had little need to shoot threes, and the same was true in his early years in the NBA. In his last few seasons, he began to slow down, and at the same time, most players were beginning to feature a three point shot, so Kidd began shooting more threes. He became better at it. He always had good enough shooting form, but he had never concentrated on shooting threes.

I compared Kidd to others using FG%, and FG% is for all players, including big tall players, who in Kidd's early years shot mostly short high percentage shots near the basket, many shooting 60% and above. Through most of Kidd's career, it was guards and wings who shot most of the threes, so the 3PT% was mostly a stat for the shorter players. Today that is no longer true, since bigs are shooting threes, some of them quite well. When Kidd entered the NBA, the best three point shooter was 6-3 Steve Kerr. Today it is 7 foot Meyers Leonard. So I don't like all-time statistics when comparing players from different eras. Players should be judged as to how well they performed against the players they played against in their own era, not against players they never had to face, man to man.

oskidunker said:

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Usf favored by 8.5.

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Touch that action and place the back 40 of the farm on it. Remit 10% of the winnings to me for the tip.

dimitrig said:

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bearmanpg said:

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While it is the exception when someone becomes a good shooter after shooting poorly, it has been done....Jason Kidd is the most notable but also Magic Johnson came into the NBA without a reliable shot....More recently, Kawhi Leonard has become an elite shooter...actually, IMO, shooting doesn't require exceptional athletic ability but it does require hours and hours of practice with the correct form...if you put those hours in without correcting your form you are wasting your time....

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I was sort of with you and then you mentioned Jason Kidd. He was a terrible shooter at Cal and he was a terrible shooter in the NBA. What did get better over the years was his free throw shooting.

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I use stats a lot, because my memory becomes more clouded over the years with my own biases. So here are some surprising stats from sports-reference for Cal's team of 1994, Kidd's sophomore year:

FG%

Buckley .530
Murray .476
Kidd .472
Stewart .471
Jamison .468
Jones .417
Duck .400

2PT%

Buckley .661
Kidd .545
Murray .526
Jones .519
Duck .481
Jamison .468
Stewart .471

3PT%

Kidd .362
McQueen .338
Murray .331
Duck .289
Buckley .284
Jones .233

FT%

Murray .764
Buckley .706
Kidd .692
Duck .647
Jones .615
Jamison .598

These surprised me, because I would have thought that Murray was the best 3-point shooter on that team, certainly not Kidd. And I would not have guessed that Kidd was as high as he was in the other categories. Maybe he just went about his scoring quietly, sort of unnoticed, or maybe I just remembered how bad he might have looked on his misses. In reality, he was a better shooter than that, relative to his teammates, anyway.

HoopDreams said:

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They haven't been pretty but I was encouraged by browns 3s when left open

Perhaps in the off season he puts in a ton of shooting and becomes enough of a threat to open up the court

I'd like to see him start with a pull up or floater which I think will complement his drive game (and of course continue to work on his deep ball)

This team needs a PG to be a scoring threat

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Objectively speaking, one of the Brown's threes was sweet, the other two were lucky to go in.

I agree with the rest of it, but so far neither of our point guards has proven that they can dish the ball at an acceptable level. Both are averaging less than 2 assists per game. Assist to turnover ratios for both players are upside down. This needs fixing.

Quote:

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I agree with the rest of it, but so far neither of our point guards has proven that they can dish the ball at an acceptable level. Both are averaging less than 2 assists per game. Assist to turnover ratios for both players are upside down. This needs fixing.

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Freshie PG Leilani McIntosh on our women's team is averaging 4.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers. Also 3.3 rebounds and 2.7 steals. She's not shooting well but at least not shooting too much.

stu said:

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Quote:

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I agree with the rest of it, but so far neither of our point guards has proven that they can dish the ball at an acceptable level. Both are averaging less than 2 assists per game. Assist to turnover ratios for both players are upside down. This needs fixing.

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Freshie PG Leilani McIntosh on our women's team is averaging 4.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers. Also 3.3 rebounds and 2.7 steals. She's not shooting well but at least not shooting too much.

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Mods! Move this post to the Women's Basketball Board immediately!

Georgetown 81 at Oklahoma St. (now 7-1) 74

Well-traveled senior back-up Terrell Allen comes up big (15 points, 5 assists) in place of now-gone James Akinjo,

=>big game for Paris

=> CAL 67 USF 65

GO BEARS!

stu said:

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Quote:

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I agree with the rest of it, but so far neither of our point guards has proven that they can dish the ball at an acceptable level. Both are averaging less than 2 assists per game. Assist to turnover ratios for both players are upside down. This needs fixing.

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Freshie PG Leilani McIntosh on our women's team is averaging 4.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers. Also 3.3 rebounds and 2.7 steals. She's not shooting well but at least not shooting too much.

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Is it too late to sign her for the men's team?