About 2 hours of story spread across 10 hours of broadcast. A horrible trend that producers/directors/editors can't seem to avoid. The desire to produce near infinite content has really destroyed the worlds second oldest profession - storytelling. But I found those 2 hours entertaining, if not a wee bit nostalgic as well.

I watched the series over the weekend with my wife and was underwhelmed. Jordan is who everyone thinks he is, and the Bulls were overexposed when the events were happening, so no real insights with this. Frankly, none of the Bulls were all that compelling apart from their play. Rodman butchering his hair, Pippen sulking and MJ abusing betas doesn't make them interesting. On the whole, the Celtics and Lakers of the 80s, and certainly their rivalry, were more interesting, at least for this viewer.

If you want a more enjoyable (but less high profile) multi-episode sports docu, try Sunderland Til I Die. Big drop off in Season 2, particularly the end, but very good overall.

If you are a pro athlete it really pays to learn a fighting skill and practice it. If Michael Jordan got on your case in practice you could take him to a quiet corner of the gym and say: "Mr. Jordan, I deeply respect you, and I appreciate you pointing out that I was not giving my best effort. I promise from now on that I will give it my maximum effort at all times. Oh, and by the way, if you ever disrespect me, bully me, embarrass me or humiliate me in front of my teammates again I will use your face to mop the court, all 94 x 50 of it. If I get traded, or never get off the bench again, so be it. Do you have any questions?*

*Robert Parish, in so many words, invited MJ to go for it. In classic bully fashion, MJ declined.

I just finished all 10 episodes. I enjoyed it, but wouldn't call it must watch TV. I agree that the insights weren't earth shattering, but it was a fun walk down memory lane.

I'm sure LeBron didn't enjoy it very much.

Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame induction speech reveals the man beneath the sports legend


https://www.espn.com/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210
https://www.espn.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210

bearister said:

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Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame induction speech reveals the man beneath the sports legend


https://www.espn.com/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210
https://www.espn.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210

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Meh, I respected Jordan, but I didn't hero worship him and this show is all about hero worship.

Garou said:

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bearister said:

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Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame induction speech reveals the man beneath the sports legend


https://www.espn.com/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210
https://www.espn.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4468210

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Meh, I respected Jordan, but I didn't hero worship him and this show is all about hero worship.

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I dunno, it worships Jordan the player and Jordan the competitor, but outside of that, it seems to present a balanced portrayal of Jordan the human being.

I don't know about sports stars as "heros". I make an exception for Muhammad Ali. Maybe for Colin Kaepernick. (Don't bother commenting on that last one, please. I know there are differing views.)

I like looking at sports stars as role models for kids. When they are flawed (as they all are), that's a good lesson that nobody is perfect and how could they have handled that better. Some athletes are clearly "negative role models".

Looking forward to the last two episodes: I'm a week behind.

I liked the scene in the locker room after the Bulls beat the Pacers when Coach Bird hugged MJ and said "You b@itch, f@uck you."

Damn, the "on demand" version I'm watching only has the option for the censored version. Larry and Michael, two of the all-time great trash talkers right there.

Celtics' Jaylen Brown drives 15 hours from Boston to lead peaceful protest in Atlanta


http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29246593/celtics-jaylen-brown-drives-15-hours-boston-lead-peaceful-protest-atlanta


I guess Jaylen isn't worried if his shoe sales take a hit.

I just finished the series. I never watched Jordan or the NBA (still don't except I now watch the Finals, and recently become a bandwagon Warriors fan because of Curry). I've also never owned a pair of Jordans.

so for me it was the first time I realized that MJ is truly the GOAT

I say that based on what I saw he accomplished on the court. Not just his amazing shots, which I've seen many times on youtube, but his clutch performances and game winning shots. I actually never knew how many close games they had where Jordan put the team on his back and made game winning plays.

I think the only other player who can legitimately claim to be the GOAT is Lebron, and unless he doesn't something magical in the future, he will not exceed MJ as an individual player or team success/impact

As for MJ's personality ... he said at one point he wished he never tried to be a role model. I understand that statement better after watching this film.

I just finished the series, too, and I found it to be realy good, if not "great". It didn't exactly give new insight so much as it did flesh things out and put it all together. (I mean, who HASN'T already heard the LaBradford Smith/Jordan story?)

Here's the definitive word on Jordan: GOAT as player (wait, you didn't already know this, Hoop Dreams?), GOAT as competitor, merely "okay" as a guy (which is good enough).

Yes, he could've been less of a jerk to some of his teammates, but so the f*** what. As Sandiegobears mentioned up-thread (paraphrase), Jordan-as-Mr-Nice-Guy was subordinated for Jordan-GOAT-Competitor.

Yes, he could've had more of a social voice, but there was only one Ali and his first name was Muhammad, not Michael.

Michael Jordan provided great joy to fans throughout the world, keeping his nose relatively clean and handling a HUGE amount of pressure with a fair degree of grace in the process. What's not to like, really?

I just finished watching Lance, the 4 hour documentary about Lance Armstrong that ESPN just released on the heels of The Last Dance. I actually enjoyed Lance even more than the Michael Jordan doc. This may be because I was really into Armstrong's incredible Tour de France run, there hasn't been too much media coverage about the aftermath of his downfall, and the viewer gains incredible insight into the psyche of Armstrong through extensive modern day no holds barred interviews with him and almost every major player involved.

My biggest takeaway: Lance was just as big an a-hole and cutthroat ruthless MF-er in his quest to absolutely annihilate his opponents (and even teammates!) as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Lance would do absolutely anything to win - it is quite jarring to see.

I don't blame Lance at all for taking performance enhancing drugs - all the cyclists on all teams were doing it. If cyclists weren't doping, they had 0% chance of winning. I do blame Lance, however, for his abhorrent behavior afterwards towards people who accused him of doping - this part is inexcusable and makes him an ugly and repulsive figure.

Lance is a major a-hole who I wouldn't want to be friends with ever. But he had incredible talent and his 7 Tour victories are an accomplishment that will always impress me.

This is another data point where the truly greatest of all time in any sport need to be rip your heart out ruthless towards everyone in order to obtain their greatest of all time status. They sacrifice a ton - most importantly personal relationships - and it's something I could never imagine doing.

If you're sheltering in place, and need to fill up 4 hours, I'd recommend the Lance doc.

75bear said:

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I just finished watching Lance, the 4 hour documentary about Lance Armstrong that ESPN just released on the heels of The Last Dance. I actually enjoyed Lance even more than the Michael Jordan doc. This may be because I was really into Armstrong's incredible Tour de France run, there hasn't been too much media coverage about the aftermath of his downfall, and the viewer gains incredible insight into the psyche of Armstrong through extensive modern day no holds barred interviews with him and almost every major player involved.

My biggest takeaway: Lance was just as big an a-hole and cutthroat ruthless MF-er in his quest to absolutely annihilate his opponents (and even teammates!) as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. Lance would do absolutely anything to win - it is quite jarring to see.

I don't blame Lance at all for taking performance enhancing drugs - all the cyclists on all teams were doing it. If cyclists weren't doping, they had 0% chance of winning. I do blame Lance, however, for his abhorrent behavior afterwards towards people who accused him of doping - this part is inexcusable and makes him an ugly and repulsive figure.

Lance is a major a-hole who I wouldn't want to be friends with ever. But he had incredible talent and his 7 Tour victories are an accomplishment that will always impress me.

This is another data point where the truly greatest of all time in any sport need to be rip your heart out ruthless towards everyone in order to obtain their greatest of all time status. They sacrifice a ton - most importantly personal relationships - and it's something I could never imagine doing.

If you're sheltering in place, and need to fill up 4 hours, I'd recommend the Lance doc.

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Lance was a jerk and he destroyed cycling as a sport. It wasn't just because of doping, but because of his singular focus on the Tour de France to the exclusion of all other races. Armstrong never even pretended to care about UCI Road World Championships. Indurain won not only the Tour de France, but the Giro de Italia. Lance was a one-trick pony and an arrogant cheating one at that.

IIRC, Lance won a World Championship before his Tour de France run. Hard to blame him for concentrating on where the fame and money was. (Easy to blame him for other stuff.)

75Bear, I hear you. I was in France for many of Armstrong's TdF victories, mostly watching on French TV (saw two stages in person). When the first knowledgeable Frenchman told me that Lance was doping, I refused to believe it because I figured that, after the cancer, his life and health would be too precious to him to risk doping. Then, two more knowledgeable Frenchmen -- separately -- said the same thing, so I began to wonder. They both gave me that Gallic shrug and said, "It's okay, EVERYBODY in the Tour de France dopes."

Big C said:

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IIRC, Lance won a World Championship before his Tour de France run. Hard to blame him for concentrating on where the fame and money was. (Easy to blame him for other stuff.)

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Yes, he did. I still mention this because his Tour de France run was aided by him not competing in other events and focusing extensively on the Tour de France. Was he within his rights to do so? Sure. It's not very sporting, though. Of course, nothing about Lance is sporting, which is my point. Some think he also competed in very few events in order to minimize his chances of being caught doping.

HoopDreams said:

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I just finished the series. I never watched Jordan or the NBA (still don't except I now watch the Finals, and recently become a bandwagon Warriors fan because of Curry). I've also never owned a pair of Jordans.

so for me it was the first time I realized that MJ is truly the GOAT

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Oh God, will you just stop commenting on basketball altogether? You are the most insufferable basketball poster on this site in its entire history. You are so ****ing stupid you don't even realize how stupid you are.

HD is one of our top posters, in all ways.

Yes, HD is among the top hoop commenters. Mr. 32 posts is trolling his way through the various forums for yucks. He went after NYCGB on the Off Topic Board. You have to figure he is getting upvoted by the usual malcontents who will remain unnamed to protect the guilty.

south bender said:

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HD is one of our top posters, in all ways.

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Top at being a self-indulgent moron. Except maybe for SFCItyBear, who puts Cal8285 to shame in terms of words/humor ratio, which approaches zero.

He's the kind of guy that dumb sports fans think are smart. Ask Steve Kerr to evaluate one of HoopDreams' posts some time for comedic value.

counsels the know it all less'n 3 month handle with 33 1/3 posts.

dimitrig said:

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Big C said:

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IIRC, Lance won a World Championship before his Tour de France run. Hard to blame him for concentrating on where the fame and money was. (Easy to blame him for other stuff.)

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Yes, he did. I still mention this because his Tour de France run was aided by him not competing in other events and focusing extensively on the Tour de France. Was he within his rights to do so? Sure. It's not very sporting, though. Of course, nothing about Lance is sporting, which is my point. Some think he also competed in very few events in order to minimize his chances of being caught doping.

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Let's get back to cycling. I mean, this is the cycling board, right? I just watched the two-part Lance special (ESPN 30-for-30). Very, very compelling, showing both "sides". I really followed cycling during that era, but I could picture even the cycling novice enjoying this documentary, even without "getting" bicycle racing.

Lance Armstrong seems like a cross between Michael Jordan and Barry Bonds, especially Bonds. Can really be a jerk. And yet, I have a hard time hating him, even after they said from the outset that he would use his extensive interviews in this to manipulate and rehabilitate the public's perception of him. Still, he seems very honest and self-aware now. Not to mention somewhat contrite.

The doping? Everybody was doing it, in order to get to the top level. When he won the Tours, he was defeating -- just crushing -- others who were also doping. That doesn't make it right, of course, because what about those who refused to dope and therefore could never reach that echelon? Obviously can't condone his crushing of others' reputations as he tried to maintain his innocence.

"Favorite" quote (paraphrase, actually) from Part Two that just floored me:

Interviewer: So, you're basically okay with where you're at now, as a person?

Lance: Well... yeah, pretty much. It could be a lot worse: I could be Floyd Landis... waking up each and every morning being a piece of s***.

(Floyd Landis ratted him out, after feeling like Lance and his team had screwed him over, even after he took a lot of the fall for doping and kept his mouth shut for a couple of years.)