Caitlin Clark

29,871 Views | 242 Replies | Last: 29 days ago by CalWSportsFan
ClayK
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Caitlin Clark is a very good player -- but at this point, she needs the ball in her hands pretty much all the time.

She's a great passer but has to learn how to cut down on turnovers.

At the international level, the U.S. has always had two problems: Shooting threes well enough, and not turning the ball over. Since the roster is packed with three-point shooters, including Taurasi, that's not an issue. Being efficient on offense is, however, still critical.

Clark is very fun to watch but not particularly efficient. She will be, no doubt, but let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.

From a basketball standpoint, the 12-woman Olympic team has never consisted of the best 12 players, but rather the 12 who fit together best as a team. At this point, Clark would need the ball too much to make that work, and she is a defensive liability.

From a marketing standpoint, I don't think Clark matters. NBC is not going to make its Olympic money from women's basketball. The ads are already sold, and were sold, for the most part, before Clarkmania became real.

Fans who are only interested in Caitlin Clark are not the future of women's basketball. If they don't watch the Americans roll over outmatched opponents in Paris, not much has been lost. Clark will hopefully be around for a long time, and her fans presumably won't go away. If they do go away, having her on this year's Olympic team would have made no difference.
mbBear
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ClayK said:

Caitlin Clark is a very good player -- but at this point, she needs the ball in her hands pretty much all the time.

She's a great passer but has to learn how to cut down on turnovers.

At the international level, the U.S. has always had two problems: Shooting threes well enough, and not turning the ball over. Since the roster is packed with three-point shooters, including Taurasi, that's not an issue. Being efficient on offense is, however, still critical.

Clark is very fun to watch but not particularly efficient. She will be, no doubt, but let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.

From a basketball standpoint, the 12-woman Olympic team has never consisted of the best 12 players, but rather the 12 who fit together best as a team. At this point, Clark would need the ball too much to make that work, and she is a defensive liability.

From a marketing standpoint, I don't think Clark matters. NBC is not going to make its Olympic money from women's basketball. The ads are already sold, and were sold, for the most part, before Clarkmania became real.

Fans who are only interested in Caitlin Clark are not the future of women's basketball. If they don't watch the Americans roll over outmatched opponents in Paris, not much has been lost. Clark will hopefully be around for a long time, and her fans presumably won't go away. If they do go away, having her on this year's Olympic team would have made no difference.
Marketing and advertising are not the same thing.
Marketing opportunity: people watching who might not have watched otherwise. A bit anecdotal here specifically, but like me and others posting above, there are now people clearly looking forward to seeing what she will do next. And obviously, with a new massive TV deal in hand, smarter people than me believe that interest is doing nothing but skyrocketing.
Advertising opportunity: right, Ads are sold (they are not sold out, best that I know, not looking it up) and that continues, it's not done. Numbers have to be reached that were promised. Women's hoop is a part of that in the cumulative, not necessarily specific to the sport...

For someone who supposedly has been a long time part of female basketball, it's amazing how every one of your posts is shrouded in "hey, people cool your jets."
Having been played a very, very small part in expanding coverage of Cal Women's basketball (first KALX Sports Director to get all home hoop games on the air) I'm excited for this place and time in history....
ClayK
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True, more people paying attention to the National Team can't hurt -- but my point is that focusing on Caitlin Clark rather than the bigger picture means the investment collapses with an ACL tear or other serious injury.

If NBC had put enough pressure on, Clark would be on the team, but clearly they didn't think it was worth the effort. Again, the games will be blowouts for the most part, and most will be at inconvenient times for American viewers.

I'm happy for Clark and her impact on the game, and I enjoy watching her. I just don't think her not being on the Olympic team is that important in the overall picture.
graguna
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ClayK said:

Caitlin Clark is a very good player -- but at this point, she needs the ball in her hands pretty much all the time.

She's a great passer but has to learn how to cut down on turnovers.

At the international level, the U.S. has always had two problems: Shooting threes well enough, and not turning the ball over. Since the roster is packed with three-point shooters, including Taurasi, that's not an issue. Being efficient on offense is, however, still critical.

Clark is very fun to watch but not particularly efficient. She will be, no doubt, but let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.

From a basketball standpoint, the 12-woman Olympic team has never consisted of the best 12 players, but rather the 12 who fit together best as a team. At this point, Clark would need the ball too much to make that work, and she is a defensive liability.

From a marketing standpoint, I don't think Clark matters. NBC is not going to make its Olympic money from women's basketball. The ads are already sold, and were sold, for the most part, before Clarkmania became real.

Fans who are only interested in Caitlin Clark are not the future of women's basketball. If they don't watch the Americans roll over outmatched opponents in Paris, not much has been lost. Clark will hopefully be around for a long time, and her fans presumably won't go away. If they do go away, having her on this year's Olympic team would have made no difference.

let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.

So what would impress you for a fast paced game - 29, 39, 109? No one has ever had 19 assists in the W and Indiana is not the only team that's ever played at a fast pace. why diminish the accomplishment.
bear2034
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ClayK said:

True, more people paying attention to the National Team can't hurt -- but my point is that focusing on Caitlin Clark rather than the bigger picture means the investment collapses with an ACL tear or other serious injury.

If NBC had put enough pressure on, Clark would be on the team, but clearly they didn't think it was worth the effort. Again, the games will be blowouts for the most part, and most will be at inconvenient times for American viewers.

I'm happy for Clark and her impact on the game, and I enjoy watching her. I just don't think her not being on the Olympic team is that important in the overall picture.

The ongoing debate or controversy of keeping Caitlin off the Olympic team is in and of itself beneficial to women's basketball.
bear2034
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ClayK said:

Caitlin Clark is a very good player -- but at this point, she needs the ball in her hands pretty much all the time.

We like Caitlin Clark having the ball in her hands all the time.

bear2034
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mbBear said:

oski003 said:

Actually, forget CC. From a basketball standpoint, Arike Ogunbowale should have made the team over CC, Gray, and DT. All things considered, I'd go Ogunbowale, then CC, then Bonner, then DT, then Griner, then Gray.

Clark just set a record for most assists in a WNBA game...the "lots of players better than her" argument gets more stale by the day...

She set the league assist record in only her 26th game as a WNBA player? It's truly amazing what she's doing. She'll probably end up breaking her own record multiple times.

bear2034
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ClayK said:

Clark is very fun to watch but not particularly efficient. She will be, no doubt, but let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.


Maybe Dallas didn't defend well but how any more assists would Caitlin have had if her teammates knocked down more shots?
LudwigsFountain
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bear2034 said:

ClayK said:

Clark is very fun to watch but not particularly efficient. She will be, no doubt, but let's also keep in mind that those 19 assists came in a very fast-paced game against a team that doesn't defend well at all. Oh, and Indiana lost.


Maybe Dallas didn't defend well but how any more assists would Caitlin have had if her teammates knocked down more shots?
I'd like to see an assist scored when the receiving player is fouled to prevent a basket. Probably good arguments against that, most importantly that it would foul up historical comparisons.
HoopDreams
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Every WNBA player should have wanted her on Olympic team

This is an opportunity to grow the WNBA and yet now the WNBA is complaining about the size of their media right deals with ESPN/others

WNBA just got a big increase in their new contract and some of that was due to CC and Angel

ClayK said:

True, more people paying attention to the National Team can't hurt -- but my point is that focusing on Caitlin Clark rather than the bigger picture means the investment collapses with an ACL tear or other serious injury.

If NBC had put enough pressure on, Clark would be on the team, but clearly they didn't think it was worth the effort. Again, the games will be blowouts for the most part, and most will be at inconvenient times for American viewers.

I'm happy for Clark and her impact on the game, and I enjoy watching her. I just don't think her not being on the Olympic team is that important in the overall picture.
ClayK
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Caitlin Clark is third in the league in minutes, which is an achievement in and of itself -- but that said, she will obviously do well in counting stats because she's on the court more than most players. And of course, she has the ball all the time.

She's very good, no doubt, and will be an Olympian, barring disaster. But she's an indifferent defender, ball-dominant and turns the ball over way too much, three attributes that the U.S. Olympic team does not need. The things she can do, others can do.

As for the marketing, if people don't see her at the Olympics, I'm not sure what is lost. She'll be back on TV when the W starts up again.

mbBear
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ClayK said:

True, more people paying attention to the National Team can't hurt -- but my point is that focusing on Caitlin Clark rather than the bigger picture means the investment collapses with an ACL tear or other serious injury.

If NBC had put enough pressure on, Clark would be on the team, but clearly they didn't think it was worth the effort. Again, the games will be blowouts for the most part, and most will be at inconvenient times for American viewers.

I'm happy for Clark and her impact on the game, and I enjoy watching her. I just don't think her not being on the Olympic team is that important in the overall picture.
"The investment collapses".....if you want to cite examples of that in sports, I would be interested.
"Focusing on Clark rather than the bigger picture..." Except, focus on Clark has raised the sport to historic and unheard of levels...the "bigger picture" is being taken care of best we can tell, and exhibit A: the new TV contract.
You could be right about NBC, and/or they didn't want to own that influence. Just would have changed the whole vibe, and even driven some viewers to those "inconvenient times." It was an opportunity, and it has past.
oski003
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ClayK said:

Caitlin Clark is third in the league in minutes, which is an achievement in and of itself -- but that said, she will obviously do well in counting stats because she's on the court more than most players. And of course, she has the ball all the time.

She's very good, no doubt, and will be an Olympian, barring disaster. But she's an indifferent defender, ball-dominant and turns the ball over way too much, three attributes that the U.S. Olympic team does not need. The things she can do, others can do.

As for the marketing, if people don't see her at the Olympics, I'm not sure what is lost. She'll be back on TV when the W starts up again.




Is she really a worse defender than Kelsey Plum or Taurasi? Both of those players have the best defenders in the league playing behind them. Clark is the best passer in the league. Her team won 13 games last year. This year, prior to the all star break, they have already won 11. They are third in their division. Last year they were sixth (last).
annarborbear
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For purists, she has weaknesses. For casual fans, the ones you need to attract in order to provide more revenue, she is appealing entertainment. You have to know what business you are in. Women's soccer helped to build its popularity around appearances in the Olympics. The more eyes on these games the better for the sport.
CalWSportsFan
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In a way, I'm glad she is getting some much deserved rest. She's been playing non-stop…
HoopDreams
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I'll say it again

WNBA just agreed to a big increase in their media rights deal. I'm sure CC and to a lesser extent Angle Reese substantially increased that amount.

All WNBA players should be able to see that

Agree that adding CC would have greatly increased interest in Olympic WBB. I have never watched or even followed it before

And that exposure would have helped raise the profile and interest in WNBA even more, which would have translated to more fans, more revenue, more filled stadiums…. And bigger media rights deals….and higher pay and benefits for WNBA players

Now the WNBA and players are complaining it's not big enough

By the way, the Olympic team will play the All Star team (with CC and Angel)

I'm sure many people will point to that game as proof that CC didn't deserve to be on the team

To that I say, basketball is a team game and I didn't even know there was an WNBA all star game until now

This isn't that complicated
mbBear
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CalWSportsFan said:

In a way, I'm glad she is getting some much deserved rest. She's been playing non-stop…

Right, I said this...I care more about her at this point.
BearBint
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156 comments on this thread. I wish something even close to that number showed up about Cal WBB--preferably positive comments and constructive criticism.
"Don't get distracted, myself. Don't get distracted." Self-talk from a young relative
stu
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BearBint said:

156 comments on this thread. I wish something even close to that number showed up about Cal WBB--preferably positive comments and constructive criticism.
Good point but the WNBA is in season, the Olympics are coming, and Caitlin Clark is hard to ignore.
mbBear
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BearBint said:

156 comments on this thread. I wish something even close to that number showed up about Cal WBB--preferably positive comments and constructive criticism.
That's fair of course. But relative to this time and place, what is the real "trickle down" of the women's basketball boon, and how does that end up relating to Cal Women's basketball? That might be a few years off, but the sport has been elevated, that part is true no matter what metric you cite....
ClayK
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Diana Taurasi is not on the team because she's one of the best 12 players. She's on the team because the coach, players and selection committee believe she is one of the 12 best Olympic teammates. (And she can still shoot it ...)

Kelsey Plum is a better defender than Caitlin Clark.

Usually, the league leader in turnovers -- by a wide margin -- is not considered the best ballhandler.

All that said, we're talking on the margins here. Would Clark's inclusion have helped drive viewers? Yes. Would Clark's inclusion had a long-term impact on the present and future of women's basketball? Maybe. Maybe not.

If Clark had been on the team, I would have been sad for Sabrina Ionescu, who probably would have missed her chance at ever playing in the Olympics, but I wouldn't complain. Clark can come off the bench and do what Sabrina does on that stage -- though you couldn't play Clark in critical minutes because of her turnovers and defense. (Sabrina's better in both aspects.)

With Clark not on the team, I will watch just as much or little as I would have otherwise. She wasn't going to get a lot of minutes so it's really irrelevant on that level. Watching a 40-point blowout of some hapless opponent in hopes of seeing Clark get 15 minutes doesn't seem to me like a ratings' boost.
oski003
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ClayK said:

Diana Taurasi is not on the team because she's one of the best 12 players. She's on the team because the coach, players and selection committee believe she is one of the 12 best Olympic teammates. (And she can still shoot it ...)

Kelsey Plum is a better defender than Caitlin Clark.

Usually, the league leader in turnovers -- by a wide margin -- is not considered the best ballhandler.

All that said, we're talking on the margins here. Would Clark's inclusion have helped drive viewers? Yes. Would Clark's inclusion had a long-term impact on the present and future of women's basketball? Maybe. Maybe not.

If Clark had been on the team, I would have been sad for Sabrina Ionescu, who probably would have missed her chance at ever playing in the Olympics, but I wouldn't complain. Clark can come off the bench and do what Sabrina does on that stage -- though you couldn't play Clark in critical minutes because of her turnovers and defense. (Sabrina's better in both aspects.)

With Clark not on the team, I will watch just as much or little as I would have otherwise. She wasn't going to get a lot of minutes so it's really irrelevant on that level. Watching a 40-point blowout of some hapless opponent in hopes of seeing Clark get 15 minutes doesn't seem to me like a ratings' boost.


I am glad we kind of now are at least admitting that Clark is better than some folks on the Olympic team. The non Olympic selected wnba all star team was up by more than 20 against the Olympic team in the wnba all star game yesterday. It was a route.
mbBear
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oski003 said:

ClayK said:

Diana Taurasi is not on the team because she's one of the best 12 players. She's on the team because the coach, players and selection committee believe she is one of the 12 best Olympic teammates. (And she can still shoot it ...)

Kelsey Plum is a better defender than Caitlin Clark.

Usually, the league leader in turnovers -- by a wide margin -- is not considered the best ballhandler.

All that said, we're talking on the margins here. Would Clark's inclusion have helped drive viewers? Yes. Would Clark's inclusion had a long-term impact on the present and future of women's basketball? Maybe. Maybe not.

If Clark had been on the team, I would have been sad for Sabrina Ionescu, who probably would have missed her chance at ever playing in the Olympics, but I wouldn't complain. Clark can come off the bench and do what Sabrina does on that stage -- though you couldn't play Clark in critical minutes because of her turnovers and defense. (Sabrina's better in both aspects.)

With Clark not on the team, I will watch just as much or little as I would have otherwise. She wasn't going to get a lot of minutes so it's really irrelevant on that level. Watching a 40-point blowout of some hapless opponent in hopes of seeing Clark get 15 minutes doesn't seem to me like a ratings' boost.


I am glad we kind of now at least admitting that Clark is better than done folks on the Olympic team. The non Olympic selected wnba all star team was up by more than 20 against the Olympic team in the wnba all star game yesterday. It was a route.
It would have been fun if the men did the same format as a Olympic warm up...
The reality is, the women could put the "next 12" best out there and still be better than most of the world, if not all of the other Olympic teams (I don't want to get too over my skis here in pretending to know about the international scene.)
We do know that the men's next 12 (hello Jaylen Brown, hi Jalen Brunson) would be terrific as well...and I think would do very well...but men's hoop internationally has caught up sooo much....
bear2034
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oski003 said:


I am glad we kind of now are at least admitting that Clark is better than some folks on the Olympic team. The non Olympic selected wnba all star team was up by more than 20 against the Olympic team in the wnba all star game yesterday. It was a route.

Maybe the WNBA all-star team was actually the better TEAM?
annarborbear
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Consider these numbers:

National tv audience for this year's All-Star game = 3.5 million. Last year's audience = 850,000.

So far this season, 17 WNBA games with tv audiences over 1 million. Clark in 15 of those games. Previous 16 seasons - no games with tv audiences greater than 1 million.

Olympic team selection committee:"Anybody have any idea why we are suddenly so popular?".
mbBear
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annarborbear said:

Consider these numbers:

National tv audience for this year's All-Star game = 3.5 million. Last year's audience = 850,000.

So far this season, 17 WNBA games with tv audiences over 1 million. Clark in 15 of those games. Previous 16 seasons - no games with tv audiences greater than 1 million.

Olympic team selection committee:"Anybody have any idea why we are suddenly so popular?".
Oh come on, are you implying that anyone would have been more likely to watch the Women's Olympics basketball team because Clark was on the team? (insert eye roll here)
bear2034
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Big C
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BearBint said:

156 comments on this thread. I wish something even close to that number showed up about Cal WBB--preferably positive comments and constructive criticism.

That would be great, wouldn't it? However, interest in sports is people's leisure time (not an obligation), so Cal Women's Basketball "needs" to win more and have a star or two that will attract fans. Combine that with the increased interest that has "trickled down" from Caitlin Clark and there will be a lot more fans at Haas!
annarborbear
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Big C said:

BearBint said:

156 comments on this thread. I wish something even close to that number showed up about Cal WBB--preferably positive comments and constructive criticism.

That would be great, wouldn't it? However, interest in sports is people's leisure time (not an obligation), so Cal Women's Basketball "needs" to win more and have a star or two that will attract fans. Combine that with the increased interest that has "trickled down" from Caitlin Clark and there will be a lot more fans at Haas!
Nationally, teams like ours that have not been to the NCAA's in five years are not drawing large crowds. Only hard core fan's show up when you are not winning. USC had dropped off to less than 1000 per game, and now they are having.the 10,000 attendance games that we used to have. The 700 fan attendance at our WBIT games represents our own hard core base. That's why we need to stop with the excuses and deliver the results.
ClayK
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A sodden thought, as Herb Caen used to say: There are a few Bay Area high school programs who draw 700 for every home game. And they will get 1,500 or more postseason.

Not all, of course. Most high school games are attended only by parents and friends of the players, so Cal is way ahead in that regard. But go to Mitty or San Ramon Valley for a big game and you'll see what I mean.
smh
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Quote:

> The 700 fan attendance at our WBIT games represents our own hard core base.
hard core! # gobears
muting more than 300 handles, turnaround is fair play
BearBint
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BearBloke and I have been joking about taking/placing bets re. the 2025 WNBA draft and who will be the next anointed Best College Player Ever. I still say UConn's Paige Bueckers: blond, thin, good-looking (the usually stern BearBloke refers to her as "that sweet-faced lass"), and a gifted point guard, well coached by Auriemma. The media cameras love her the way they do Clark; she's built for ads and endorsements--already has some profitable ones--and instant national celebrity.

I say it's Caitlin vs. Paige in a modern Rookie GOAT contest, with Angel Reese lurking on the sidelines. (I'll put my money on Angel, who is canny, athletic, beautiful and ambitious. But mostly, I just really like a woman who can rebound.)
"Don't get distracted, myself. Don't get distracted." Self-talk from a young relative
ClayK
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JuJu Watkins raises her hand ...
BearBint
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ClayK said:

JuJu Watkins raises her hand ...
And rightly so.
"Don't get distracted, myself. Don't get distracted." Self-talk from a young relative
oski003
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ClayK said:

JuJu Watkins raises her hand ...


Why? She is probably 2027, not 2025.
 
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