Athleticism

1,306 Views | 29 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by HoopDreams
ClayK
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Cal was simply not as athletic as Mississippi State at any position.

That allowed MSU's defenders to play up on Cal's shooters and take away the three-pointer. When the Bears put the ball on the floor, there was a 6-8 post waiting at the rim.

The "lack of discipline" was really a lack of athleticism. Cal was forced to force the issue, and try to make low-percentage plays because they were not athletic enough to make high percentage plays.

In short, Mississippi State was the better team because of talent, not because of poor coaching or lack of effort or dumb play.

And there's no substitute for talent.
annarborbear
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The TO problem can no doubt worsen against taller more athletic teams. But we have also turned it over against everybody else. Seems like we do need to come up with some answers for that one.
RedlessWardrobe
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RedlessWardrobe
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Late in the season we started to adjust to this type of defense, by quite often spreading the floor and let Kayla drive and/or dish. Saw very little of that yesterday. Maybe it would have helped.
annarborbear
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In the ACC this year, we were 18th in Turnover Margin and 15th in Assist/TO ratio. That should provide a clear indication that we do need some type of change in our approach.
gwashburn14
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What's frustrating is most of the turnovers are unforced or just lazy. Suarez just tossing the inbounds to Williams, who's being pressed and it gets picked off. Or her running the baseline to inbounds after a turnover. (That's a pretty basic rule that you can only run the baseline after a made basket). And there's the sloppy entry passes to the bigs or dribbling into three defenders in the paint. All of this can be fixed and it's crazy that Charmin can't correct this at all so it shows during the biggest game of these players' career. Suarez had eight turnovers in 26 minutes. So one every three minutes and 15 seconds on the floor. That can't happen. Charmin has to go back to teaching fundamentals and ball security. She said she just accepts her team commits a lot turnovers. Why? That's the No. 1 pet peeve for any basketball coach. Someone in the program has to start teaching fundamentals.
CalFanatic
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ClayK said:

Cal was simply not as athletic as Mississippi State at any position.

That allowed MSU's defenders to play up on Cal's shooters and take away the three-pointer. When the Bears put the ball on the floor, there was a 6-8 post waiting at the rim.

The "lack of discipline" was really a lack of athleticism. Cal was forced to force the issue, and try to make low-percentage plays because they were not athletic enough to make high percentage plays.

In short, Mississippi State was the better team because of talent, not because of poor coaching or lack of effort or dumb play.

And there's no substitute for talent.


The videos of Cal recruits Barnes, Morris and Johnson scream athleticism, speed, etc. This gives me some hope next year.

Morris is 5'5 but hey…Leilani was pretty damn good for the program!
ClayK
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Players aren't perfect. They have flaws, physical and mental.

You can't correct some physical flaws, and you can't correct some mental flaws. As I've mentioned, anyone who's been a boss has had employees who just can't seem to grasp certain concepts that others can -- and yet you keep that employee because of her value in other areas.

Passing and decision-making are the two most difficult skills to teach basketball players. They are obviously interrelated, and what makes it difficult to coach/teach is that the time frame is very compressed (processing information on the court is what separates the elite athletes in the WNBA and NBA). It's also difficult to set up practice situations that can help improve those attributes.

You can easily work on rebounding, say, or shooting mechanics. But devising a drill to mimic unexpected patterns and maneuvers that happen in a split second is extremely difficult -- and it might not even help that much. Some people are really good at math in their heads; others aren't. Some people are really good at making decisions in basketball game; some aren't.

There are reasons players are available in the portal.
HoopDreams
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We've discussed this before. I agree with Clay about the speed of the game.

Some players see the court better. With experience the game can slow down. With coaching the teaching of technique and scouting can also help. Player development is of course key

But there is a tricky balance between playing fast to run your offense and giving your player confidence

The most Lethal thing to a basketball player are doubt, tentativeness, and lost of confidence


annarborbear
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It has been a great season in many ways, and credit goes to the players and the coaches. But finishing 18th in the league in Assist/TO ratio and then saying that there is simply nothing that we can do about it?
HoopDreams
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annarborbear said:

It has been a great season in many ways, and credit goes to the players and the coaches. But finishing 18th in the league in Assist/TO ratio and then saying that there is simply nothing that we can do about it?
who said that?
SFCALBear72
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From Charmin's postgame press conference transcripts:

Q. Turnovers were a thing kind of all year and for a lot of the season you guys got a way with it and you were able to out shoot those turnovers but your last two games of the year, Notre Dame and now here were really costly. Why do you think that stayed a consistent issue all year, and what do you learn about that going into next year and trying to not have that be as much concern?

"Yeah, I mean, I think at times we force the issue and we try to do too much. And it's something that I've chosen to live with, you know. I trust our players. I like for them to be confident. So I don't want to be a coach that, you know, is constantly yanking people in or out and that type of thing.

But I don't think that it will be an issue for us. It's something that we have to fix, right, and it's hard in the middle of the season. You have a flow. You have people that you've got to ride with.
But just as we did last year in saying, look, we need to be better defensively and we've got Jayda in here and got people to really commit to being better defenders; Michelle staying out of foul trouble, and that was the growth of our team. This will definitely be an area of growth next year where I hope we won't be talking about the turnovers as much as we did this year."
annarborbear
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It is good to see Charmin acknowledging the problem and her intent to do something about it next year. Out of 68 teams in the tournament, only 4 thus far have had more TO's in a tournament game than we did - Columbia, Lehigh, Stephen Austin and Montana State. And that is not the company we want to keep.
HoopDreams
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she is not saying 'there is simply nothing that we can do about it'

if you've followed her for a while, including this season she has repeatedly talked about turnovers and foul trouble

she absolutely coaches the players how to avoid both

what she is saying is she doesn't yank players for a turnover, although I have seen her do exactly that

again, sometimes turnovers are caused by being tentative, where they are actually scared to make a pass... that is fatal for a basketball player

same thing can be said about shooting. you coach to take good shots and not blame players for missing a good shot. And yes, she sits players who are having a bad day

but with this year's team, we have no scorers off the bench, and if you need to score what options does she have? In yesterday's game, she played Noble for defense and Yo on offense as best she could, but you can't do that all game (MSU bench outscored our bench something like 14 to zero)

I think people are taking her words after the disappointing loss to literally
3Cats4CAL
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Let's hope all of those non scorers on the bench improve next season otherwise why were they recruited in the first place?
ClayK
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What no one says about women's basketball: There are more D1 scholarships than there are D1 players.

The talent pool is not deep.
mbBear
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ClayK said:

What no one says about women's basketball: There are more D1 scholarships than there are D1 players.

The talent pool is not deep.
It's a great point, and I think why in part you see some of the lopsided scores that you do in the women's tournament...
mbBear
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ClayK said:

Cal was simply not as athletic as Mississippi State at any position.

That allowed MSU's defenders to play up on Cal's shooters and take away the three-pointer. When the Bears put the ball on the floor, there was a 6-8 post waiting at the rim.

The "lack of discipline" was really a lack of athleticism. Cal was forced to force the issue, and try to make low-percentage plays because they were not athletic enough to make high percentage plays.

In short, Mississippi State was the better team because of talent, not because of poor coaching or lack of effort or dumb play.

And there's no substitute for talent.
Your points and this thread in general is really well done. And good to see Charmin's comments.
Sometimes I felt like this team lacked fundamental instinct for the game especially in terms of turnovers....like I wanted to yell, go watch more games on TV! You think that really just ties back into what you are talking about in terms of "discipline" and "athleticism?"
ClayK
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There's such a fine line in coaching ...

If you punish every mistake, players play not to make mistakes.

If you let bad stuff go, then there's no accountability.

So the coach has to judge whether the player is

a) doing her best given her physical and mental limitations, and the defense facing her; or

b) willfully ignoring instructions and game plans.

When you are not as athletic as your defender -- and I have plenty of experience with that -- you get sped up. You have to think faster and move faster than you'd like, and you make decisions and physical errors that you wouldn't if you were athletically equal or superior. An example is Marta: When she takes smaller players inside, she's in control. When she's getting harassed by a quicker defender, she makes bad passes.

Against most teams, Cal's advantages (size, shooting ability) outweighed its disadvantages, and generally someone had an athletic advantage. Against Mississippi State, no one had an athletic advantage, and MSU exploited that when Cal had the ball. They sped Cal up the entire game. There were few open looks, few gaps to attack and quick hands everywhere.

Then again, that's an 8-9 game in the NCAA tournament. Each team has strengths and weaknesses, and MSU was better equipped to exploit Cal's weaknesses than vice versa.

And Charmin, or any coach, can't and shouldn't change what won 25 games. You have to dance with them that brung you ... warts and all.
wvitbear
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I thought the best coached team I saw in the tournament was Richmond. Pulled one upset and almost pulled a giant one.
annarborbear
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I did go back and look at Marta's stats at Tennessee. Although in far fewer minutes, she did have about the same negative Assist/TO ratios that she has had for us.
HoopDreams
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I tried to say the same thing. I agree with everything except that MSU was more athletic at every position. Michelle is more athletic than their center. MSU's center is 6-6 and strong but I don't consider her athletic (but someone's definition could be different)

I thought Michelle out played her, but not by looking at the box score. Their center had a lot more help.

What would really be fun is to get a bunch of BI posters on the court and run a full court trap at them. It's amazing how getting sped up and worrying about not getting intercepted can do to your mind (I know the rebuttal is we don't play D1 basketball, but until you've experienced it's difficult to understand)

ClayK said:

There's such a fine line in coaching ...

If you punish every mistake, players play not to make mistakes.

If you let bad stuff go, then there's no accountability.

So the coach has to judge whether the player is

a) doing her best given her physical and mental limitations, and the defense facing her; or

b) willfully ignoring instructions and game plans.

When you are not as athletic as your defender -- and I have plenty of experience with that -- you get sped up. You have to think faster and move faster than you'd like, and you make decisions and physical errors that you wouldn't if you were athletically equal or superior. An example is Marta: When she takes smaller players inside, she's in control. When she's getting harassed by a quicker defender, she makes bad passes.

Against most teams, Cal's advantages (size, shooting ability) outweighed its disadvantages, and generally someone had an athletic advantage. Against Mississippi State, no one had an athletic advantage, and MSU exploited that when Cal had the ball. They sped Cal up the entire game. There were few open looks, few gaps to attack and quick hands everywhere.

Then again, that's an 8-9 game in the NCAA tournament. Each team has strengths and weaknesses, and MSU was better equipped to exploit Cal's weaknesses than vice versa.

And Charmin, or any coach, can't and shouldn't change what won 25 games. You have to dance with them that brung you ... warts and all.
PenBear
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They are more athletic as a team (except Michelle and Gaby) but our team also have skills. We are a better shooting team (when we get can get good shots being the caveat). Agreed tho that at the higher level overwhelming physical skills trumps team skills. Teams like Princeton (men's side I know) runs that Princeton offense and may be able to get one or two rounds of upsets (remember Wisconsin Green bay) but could never get past the Kentuckys Dukes N. Carolinas. Having said that, we just didn't seem prepared and have little or not adjustments when things don't work. And everyone knows after Duke, NC, Notre Dame pressing us and running us off the 3pt line stops our offense. Yet we don't seem to try many other options. Yes, I understand "everyone has a plan until they gets punched in the mouth". But I don't see anything creative being tried.
UrsineMaximus
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ClayK said:

Players aren't perfect. They have flaws, physical and mental.

You can't correct some physical flaws, and you can't correct some mental flaws. As I've mentioned, anyone who's been a boss has had employees who just can't seem to grasp certain concepts that others can -- and yet you keep that employee because of her value in other areas.

Passing and decision-making are the two most difficult skills to teach basketball players. They are obviously interrelated, and what makes it difficult to coach/teach is that the time frame is very compressed (processing information on the court is what separates the elite athletes in the WNBA and NBA). It's also difficult to set up practice situations that can help improve those attributes.

You can easily work on rebounding, say, or shooting mechanics. But devising a drill to mimic unexpected patterns and maneuvers that happen in a split second is extremely difficult -- and it might not even help that much. Some people are really good at math in their heads; others aren't. Some people are really good at making decisions in basketball game; some aren't.

There are reasons players are available in the portal.
Passing into the low post is done to a "window" not directly to the player.
The low post has to create the opportunity for the "window".

Neither the passer nor the low post does this well at Cal. Both are teachable and trainable. For some players this is innate, for others it requires coaching and repetition. Cal, currently, does not have a passer or low post that naturally does this.

If, as you say, teaching this is "extremely difficult" than the obvious solution is to stop forcing passes into the low post. Is it not? And that is coaching by definition.
HoopDreams
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UrsineMaximus said:

ClayK said:

Players aren't perfect. They have flaws, physical and mental.

You can't correct some physical flaws, and you can't correct some mental flaws. As I've mentioned, anyone who's been a boss has had employees who just can't seem to grasp certain concepts that others can -- and yet you keep that employee because of her value in other areas.

Passing and decision-making are the two most difficult skills to teach basketball players. They are obviously interrelated, and what makes it difficult to coach/teach is that the time frame is very compressed (processing information on the court is what separates the elite athletes in the WNBA and NBA). It's also difficult to set up practice situations that can help improve those attributes.

You can easily work on rebounding, say, or shooting mechanics. But devising a drill to mimic unexpected patterns and maneuvers that happen in a split second is extremely difficult -- and it might not even help that much. Some people are really good at math in their heads; others aren't. Some people are really good at making decisions in basketball game; some aren't.

There are reasons players are available in the portal.
Passing into the low post is done to a "window" not directly to the player.
The low post has to create the opportunity for the "window".

Neither the passer nor the low post does this well at Cal. Both are teachable and trainable. For some players this is innate, for others it requires coaching and repetition. Cal, currently, does not have a passer or low post that naturally does this.

If, as you say, teaching this is "extremely difficult" than the obvious solution is to stop forcing passes into the low post. Is it not? And that is coaching by definition.
Michelle does a good job of sealing her defender and is a very athletic jumper with good hands to catch passes over the top. Not sure what you're seeing as her weakness not creating a 'window'
ClayK
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So if, as mentioned, Michelle was the best option against MSU, then do you quit trying to throw the ball to her?

Of course, if you do try to throw the ball to her, you will turn it over because your defender is better than you and will prevent it.

You can teach how to enter to the window, but if your defender is quicker, longer and taller, it doesn't matter. You can't get the ball where you want without speeding up, and once sped up, your efficiency goes down.

Cal had a great season and won 25 games. Their weaknesses, however, were real, and MSU exploited them. A different first-round matchup might have resulted in a first-round win, but superior athleticism was going to shut the door sooner rather than later.

SFCALBear72
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Coach Travon Bryant is responsible for post-player development. This was only his second season working with Michelle. Prior to Cal, he worked with front-court players in the NBA.

As a freshman, Gabrielle Abigor will greatly benefit from his coaching.
HoopDreams
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Not sure what your point is. I'm saying Michelle is good at sealing her defender. Against a 6-6 defender the problem is getting the pass to her, not her positioning

ClayK said:

So if, as mentioned, Michelle was the best option against MSU, then do you quit trying to throw the ball to her?

Of course, if you do try to throw the ball to her, you will turn it over because your defender is better than you and will prevent it.

You can teach how to enter to the window, but if your defender is quicker, longer and taller, it doesn't matter. You can't get the ball where you want without speeding up, and once sped up, your efficiency goes down.

Cal had a great season and won 25 games. Their weaknesses, however, were real, and MSU exploited them. A different first-round matchup might have resulted in a first-round win, but superior athleticism was going to shut the door sooner rather than later.


wvitbear
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When Michele wasn't in foul trouble she scored in high double digits. Foul trouble limited her more than entry pass.
HoopDreams
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wvitbear said:

When Michele wasn't in foul trouble she scored in high double digits. Foul trouble limited her more than entry pass.


Agree!
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