dfineguy;842271280 said:

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As in The Griner Deception.

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Interesting that you bring this up. I thought lots about it but didn't want to because of the controversy of it but the lack of recruiting results especially after a FF have me searching for any explanation

XXXXXX deleted due to lack of interested.

OBear073akaSMFan;842271308 said:

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the lack of recruiting results especially after a FF have me searching for any explanation

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First, I wouldn't call signing Green and Cowling lack of results.

We didn't get any out-of-state players, but I'm not too surprised because we only became visible on the national scene with our performance against Notre Dame in the 2012 NCAA Tournament. Since recruiting relationships often take years of nurturing I expect we'll do better in the future.

And, as you mention, other factors come in. The kids who chose UCLA may have preferred the SoCal scene or the coach or whatever. With such a small sample a little randomness can have a large effect, and who can think of anything more random than teenagers?

stu;842271332 said:

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First, I wouldn't call signing Green and Cowling lack of results.

We didn't get any out-of-state players, but I'm not too surprised because we only became visible on the national scene with our performance against Notre Dame in the 2012 NCAA Tournament. Since recruiting relationships often take years of nurturing I expect we'll do better in the future.

And, as you mention, other factors come in. The kids who chose UCLA may have preferred the SoCal scene or the coach or whatever. With such a small sample a little randomness can have a large effect, and who can think of anything more random than teenagers?

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I dont mean to dispell our recruits but concerned about our near recruits and giving a possible reason why some mighthwve looked or looking elsewhere. It is alwaye a possibility.

OBear073akaSMFan;842271357 said:

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I dont mean to dispell our recruits but concerned about our near recruits and giving a possible reason why some mighthwve looked or looking elsewhere. It is alwaye a possibility.

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What are you talking about? I mentioned Griner because Baylor's rules frced Kim to lie publicly. Oregon wouldn't and they have the dough.

dfineguy;842271377 said:

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What are you talking about? I mentioned Griner because Baylor's rules frced Kim to lie publicly. Oregon wouldn't and they have the dough.

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deleted ...oh well guess not everyone thinks it's a possibllity..

kat0189;842250576 said:

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I think we have a good shot at Kennedy Burke, but is she a high priority given who we already have? She might end up at USC when you look at personnel.

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She just verballed to UCLA, apparently.

This was an odd one to follow. I had heard Cal and UCLA were her final 2. Proximity to home was said to be a major factor. Apparently this was Gottlieb's top target for 2015. I found that odd b/c we already have Green, Cowling, and Range.

She's ranked a bit all over the place. But some say she's a future superstar with major upside. That said, her shooting seems inconsistent and only averages 14.5 ppg for a small school.

Anyway, 2016 seems pretty loaded with Cali talent. Blue Star has 6 Cali girls in their top 50, and that's not even including Leaonna Odom (ranked #20 by HG), Jayde Woods & Mai-Loni Henson (both 4-star prospects by PN) and Valerie Higgins (who has very high praise on the UCLA board).

I was never as sold on Burke as many others were, including LG apparently. I'm still into true 4,5 type players for 2015. We need one more coming in as a freshman in 2015. And we need a PG, at least one great ball handler the level of Boyd at least. Thomas is the local favorite and she seems within reach. I still like Brijanee Moore as a shooter and a ball handler. We should definitely recruit her if she meets Cal's academic requirements for student athletes, but she must also possess the one quality that Cal cannot live without. SHE HAS TO WANNA COME HERE. And in-state we also have MaAne Mosely from the school that has given us Green and Cowlings. Very different from Thomas and B Moore, she seems quite at home inside with bigger players.

And this may be the year Cal opens the out-of-state pipeline and keeps it open. Because winning it all with locals is very difficult if not impossible.

:rant

I'm done now

Great get for UCLA. Burke's build and game seems to be very similar to Green with Gabby being a little more advanced in most aspects. Good thing UCLA is adding so much depth after this disastrous and embarrassing season. Looks like that won't happen again in Westwood!

Sierra Canyon's best-she has height & length and is athletic. I would have been jazzed if Gottlieb could have landed her top target. Lindsey seems to be consistently losing out in Southern California. I don't know that Cal can be a conference champion without SoCal talent on the roster.

UCLA is building the most athletic and probably most talented team in the Pac 12.

GO BEARS!

Losing top SoCal talent is highly disappointing. Losing NorCal talent is inexcusable. Lindsay has done too much of both in her short time here. Our best players are still Boyle recruits. And why isn't Thomas a Bear yet since everyone wants to stay home? Next excuse please! That one is getting old. Good thing Cal is not located back East where recruiting is even more competitive.

Actually I'm not going to put this all on Lindsay. I think our assistants need to step up their recruiting game, as well. We need a Kevin Morrison type with LA and AAU connections. If that means "trading up" for an assistant that is a big time recruiter, then that's what we need to do. Losing recruits to Cori Close is not how you become Elite .

Actually, I'm not that bummed about missing out on Burke. We have many greater needs than another wing. But, it's the principle of the thing. You can't keep losing head -to -head recruiting battles with other upstart programs, especially in California, if you expect to be an Elite program. There have already been too many whiffs on players we need to reach our program goals. Lindsay is aiming high, I give her that. But, in recruiting coming in second means you lose.

GOCAL73;842308662 said:

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Losing top SoCal talent is highly disappointing. Losing NorCal talent is inexcusable. Lindsay has done too much if both in her short time here . Our best player are still Boyle recruits. And why isn't Thomas a Bear yet since everyone wants to stay home? Next excuse please! That one is getting old. Good thing Cal is not located back East where recruiting is even more competitive.

Actually I'm not going to put this all on Lindsay. I think our assistants need to step up their recruiting game, as well. We need a Kevin Morrison type with LA connections. Losing recruits to Cori Close is not how you become Elite .

Actually, I'm not that bummed about missing out on Burke. We have many greater needs than another wing. But, it's the principle of the thing. You can't keep losing head -to -head recruiting battles with other upstart programs, especially in California, if you expect to be an Elite program. Too many whiffs on players we need to reach our goals. Lindsay is aiming high, I give her that. But, in recruiting coming in second means you lose.

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I totally agree. Whether my agreeing is a blessing or curse remains to be seen. :rollinglaugh:

who played at North Carolina. And graduated there. and for all I know is still there. I don't know where he is. But if he is still in the area and wants his sister to come out there, you can't understand why she hasn't signed here. I don't think he was unhappy there if he stayed four years and didn't play much. If you haven't been to that area, it is a very nice area to live in. With Duke and UNC there, a lot of smart people and good jobs.

wvitbear;842308774 said:

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who played at North Carolina. And graduated there. and for all I know is still there. I don't know where he is. But if he is still in the area and wants his sister to come out there, you can't understand why she hasn't signed here. I don't think he was unhappy there if he stayed four years and didn't play much. If you haven't been to that area, it is a very nice area to live in. With Duke and UNC there, a lot of smart people and good jobs.

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Well, it appears Q is now rapper GQ. He speaks highly of NC but appears to live in Oakland. Here is a link to a blog cast that is fairly recent, August 2013.

http://vimeo.com/71311125

He is on twitter at @lifeofGQ.

I remember him announcing for UNC and making many Cal fans highly unhappy. Hope his little sister stays home and takes over for another local product, BB. I think Lindsay should be able to sell playing in front of family and friends in an established program that can compete at the same level as UNC. If Lindsay can't sell a local star on stepping right in and taking over this team, then WTH! Give up.

GOCAL73;842308986 said:

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I remember him announcing for UNC and making many Cal fans highly unhappy. Hope his little sister stays home and takes over for another local product, BB. I think Lindsay should be able to sell playing in front of family and friends in an established program that can compete at the same level as UNC. If Lindsay can't sell a local star on stepping right in and taking over this team, then WTH! Give up.

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At same time of Burke's announcements on prospectnation, AZ St also got a verbal from Sabrina Haines a 5-9 PG from AZ. She is listed as a four star, the same as Thomas. Per prospectnation "Arizona State landed its point guard of the future"http://prospectsnation.com/node/17090. It's really frustrating to see other Pac-12 schools getting 1 or 2 PG but we have failed in our efforts, so far to get a PG we are targeting! Knowing that BB is graduating after next year, you would think PGs will be salivating for this opportunity! Not getting Thomas would be disheartening and if coachG hasn't casted a wider net, then shame on her.

IMO, you want to bring in your top pg the year your current top pg, BB, is a senior. This gives her fill in time behind the best and time to learn from the best. No pressure to be the best player right out of HS. Then she takes over for the next three years.
This could be the case for most positions, but more so for a pg, who is expected to be the general on the floor.

iminoc;842309029 said:

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IMO, you want to bring in your top pg the year your current top pg, BB, is a senior. This gives her fill in time behind the best and time to learn from the best. No pressure to be the best player right out of HS. Then she takes over for the next three years.
This could be the case for most positions, but more so for a pg, who is expected to be the general on the floor.

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You are absolutely correct. However, that ship sailed when Lindsay lost Canada to the Ruins, unless you see Gabby Green as our next PG. Yep. There have been some epic fails in Cal's recruiting under Lindsay. At least with Thomas we have a talent who is capable of playing right away. We need a bunch more players in the 2015 class, but none more than Asha Thomas. Get it done, Lindsay.

BTW, why did DeShields leave UNC?

iminoc;842309029 said:

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IMO, you want to bring in your top pg the year your current top pg, BB, is a senior. This gives her fill in time behind the best and time to learn from the best. No pressure to be the best player right out of HS. Then she takes over for the next three years.
This could be the case for most positions, but more so for a pg, who is expected to be the general on the floor.

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I agree but Canada (UCLA) and Mikayla Venson (UVA) both chose to go elsewhere! Now we are into 2015, with no returning PG. With how the team has performed, players should be clamoring to come to Cal!:facepalm

You make a compelling point on assistant coach recruiting as Close and the bruins have a disturbing streak going against Cal. Cal needs to get its share of SoCal talent.

puget sound cal fan;842309176 said:

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You make a compelling point on assistant coach recruiting as Close and the bruins have a disturbing streak going against Cal. Cal needs to get its share of SoCal talent.

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I am curious what you are talking about. The case is so compelling, I don't get it at all. Are you saying one or more of Cal's assistants can't recruit well therefore we lose all the good ones? No offense, but I'm clueless.

It does seem obvious Morrison was the most capable recruiter the Bears have had this century and his departure was sad and more than a bit mysterious, but he had his reasons. He left before LG was hired so LG had to replace him. Does Cal have an assistant who is not producing as a recruiter? I have no idea nor do I need to know. LG ought to know and act if that is the case. Her one hire since the initial staffing, Steding, has proved to be a very good move.

We are losing key recruits to UCLA and Close quite a bit. Close is on a roll. I don't like her but if she is doing something unethical, it'll bite her in the end. And I base my feelings on her sideline performance during games. McCallie and Mulkey I dislike for the same reason. I just get a bad feeling watching their behavior.

I will say that it seems we are having trouble recruiting guards, both PGs and SGs. We've gotten 1 in 3 seasons, Jefflo. Hind left quickly and Shine is basically an unused transfer. I don't know what this means, if anything. I will say our scouting of guards has been questionable and, IMHO, far too restricted. Gottlieb is in no position to play with a short roster at this point. We should suit up 12 for 15-16 and since no one graduates in 2 years, we have 3 open for 16-17. At that point there is a good 4 year turnover pattern and LG can fill positions as they come up or as is needed for other unforeseen events like transfers, career shortening injuries or just really bad fits.

Scares me that we only have 9 players right now for 2016 season. All phenomenal players (Range, Cowling, Green, Anigwe, Cavanaugh...cant complain) but that is a scary low number. Adding Bulgak would be a great start.

Imagine if we had landed any of our strikeouts in Plum, Chidom, or Canada? This team would be back at the FF next year.

CalFanatic;842309242 said:

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Scares me that we only have 9 players right now for 2016 season. All phenomenal players (Range, Cowling, Green, Anigwe, Cavanaugh...cant complain) but that is a scary low number. Adding Bulgak would be a great start.

Imagine if we had landed any of our strikeouts in Plum, Chidom, or Canada? This team would be back at the FF next year.

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I only get 8. Range, Jefflo, Waters, Green, Cowling, Davidson, Anigwe and Cavanaugh. Who did I miss?

Maybe this girl is someone Gottlieb should be after. Eternati Willock 6'2" Forward from Canada ranked #43 by Hoopgurlz and IIRC #73 by ASGR. From Ontario though so East Coast schools might have the edge.

We seem to have secured some quality bigs. I think our top priority now should be Asha Thomas or another pure point for 2015. After that I'd like to see a long-range shooting guard, possibly a juco, for 2014.

dfineguy;842309276 said:

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I only get 8. Range, Jefflo, Waters, Green, Cowling, Davidson, Anigwe and Cavanaugh. Who did I miss?

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That's about it! With no recruits for 2012 creates a small roster

GOCAL73;842309033 said:

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You are absolutely correct. However, that ship sailed when Lindsay lost Canada to the Ruins, unless you see Gabby Green as our next PG. Yep. There have been some epic fails in Cal's recruiting under Lindsay. At least with Thomas we have a talent who is capable of playing right away. We need a bunch more players in the 2015 class, but none more than Asha Thomas. Get it done, Lindsay.

BTW, why did DeShields leave UNC?

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Some thoughts on some of LG's so called losses. The women athletes she recruits have different reasons for attending colleges than the guys. For example, you can't blame the coach because Cal doesn't have a medical school, and therefore certain related majors. You need to understand that Cal doesn't fit for everyone, and often times with women its the school, not the coaching staff or program, as opposed to the guys who want to know if the coaching staff will put them in the NBA, like coach Cal.

Schroeder71;842308630 said:

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Lindsey seems to be consistently losing out in Southern California. I don't know that Cal can be a conference champion without SoCal talent on the roster.

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GOCAL73;842308662 said:

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We need a Kevin Morrison type with LA and AAU connections.

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Looking back I see only one major haul of SoCal recruits: 4 in 2009. Our 2005 Fab Five were all local, and I don't remember any SoCal players in the next 3 classes. In the 5 classes of 2010 through 2014 I count just 3 SoCal players: Lindsay Sherbert, Reshanda Gray, and Mercedes Jefflo.

This neither worries nor surprises me. Los Angeles is around 400 miles from Berkeley and the cultures are very different, so I wouldn't expect many SoCal players to be drawn to Berkeley. In most other parts of the country that geographic and cultural separation would amount to several states.

What I'd like to see is Cal getting most of the Northern California players we want, plus a few from other states or overseas. For these purposes I consider SoCal to be another state. So far the Cal women haven't lost a lot of top local prospects to UCLA or USC, but I have to admit being annoyed at losing Chelsea Gray and Oderah Chidom to Duke. I'd be quite upset if we started losing local players we really want to USC, UCLA, or public schools in other states.

I'm curious if Kennedy Burke to UCLA opens up the door for Aisia Robertson at Cal, who had not been offered. We certainly have room.

wifeisafurd;842309443 said:

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Some thoughts on some of LG's so called losses. The women athletes she recruits have different reasons for attending colleges than the guys. For example, you can't blame the coach because Cal doesn't have a medical school, and therefore certain related majors. You need to understand that Cal doesn't fit for everyone, and often times with women its the school, not the coaching staff or program, as opposed to the guys who want to know if the coaching staff will put them in the NBA, like coach Cal.

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When it comes to elite players I don't see as much difference between men and women anymore. AAU ball and social media has changed everything. Talented young women are seeing that they have can have both if they want both. They don't need to choose between academics and athletics. So, many top women care A LOT about the status of the program and who will be coaching them. UCONN doesn't get the best players because of their great location and awesome academics. Same can be said for Baylor, Louisville and others. However, it is probably true that female players opting for Cal, Furd, Northwestern, the Ivys may care more about the academic side than your average high school star. But, they also care about winning and excelling at basketball. I just don't see the old stereotypes working any more.

As for fit, I think many types of kids can fit in at Berkeley simply because the place is so diverse. It's up to our coaching staff to convince players that Cal will work for them. That's what recruiting is all about.

Also, I wasn't talking just about Canada. Unfortunately, many others we wanted with normal majors have opted to go elsewhere. Plus, when Lindsay is turned down by her favorite recruit, she needs to have Plan B in place.

GOCAL73;842309727 said:

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When it comes to elite players I don't see as much difference between men and women anymore. AAU ball and social media has changed everything. Talented young women are seeing that they have can have both if they want both. They don't need to choose between academics and athletics. So, many top women care A LOT about the status of the program and who will be coaching them. UCONN doesn't get the best players because of their great location and awesome academics. Same can be said for Baylor, Louisville and others. However, it is probably true that female players opting for Cal, Furd, Northwestern, the Ivys may care more about the academic side than your average high school star. But, they also care about winning and excelling at basketball. I just don't see the old stereotypes working any more.

As for fit, I think many types of kids can fit in at Berkeley simply because the place is so diverse. It's up to our coaching staff to convince players that Cal will work for them. That's what recruiting is all about.

Also, I wasn't talking just about Canada. Unfortunately, many others we wanted with normal majors have opted to go elsewhere. Plus, when Lindsay is turned down by her favorite recruit, she needs to have Plan B in place.

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I will grant you that women's bball is becoming more like the men. But a non-powerhouse Cal is drawing almost exclusively 4 and 5 star talent under Boyle and Gottlieb, and Monty, a hall of fame coach, can't draw any of that talent because Cal's academics are viewed as an impediment. A couple years ago, Gottlieb and Monty appeared together at an event, and I asked them about the discrepancy in recruiting, and they both had the same answer: Cal is attractive to better women players because of its academics and is not attractive to better male players for the same reason. There then was long discussions about salaries in the WNBA vs NBA and the role of the AAU.

Gottlieb has lost two players to UCLA because of the medical related majors and one to Duke because of Cal not having her major. You don't hear five star male players doing that. They don't care because they don't graduate. On the other hand compare the graduation rate to their female counterparts.

I totally agree that Gottlieb can't put her eggs in one basket, and sometimes you have to either have back-up recruits that fit your team or do as Tara does and mold your team around who you get in the door. In fact, expect the Furd to change their program's style yet again based on the end of the sister act.

OBear073akaSMFan;842309035 said:

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I agree but Canada (UCLA) and Mikayla Venson (UVA) both chose to go elsewhere! Now we are into 2015, with no returning PG. With how the team has performed, players should be clamoring to come to Cal!:facepalm

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No doubt you are correct, and Gottlieb needs to have a plan b in place and maybe looking towards Asia (not the continent) or elsewhere. But she seems to be focused on style of play (defense, ball skills, etc.). Shooting never seems to be her focus with points, IMO.

You need to add Drummond to that list--a UCLA commit.

PG is #1 priority and a dead-eye three-point bomber is #2. GO BEARS!

dfineguy, this entire thread is about Cal misses on their top recruit targets and the consequences of those misses. It's critical that Cal looks like they may have to start a freshman at PG after Boyd graduates. Plum and Canada would have fit the bill nicely, but having competitive back-up candidates could have averted the PG succession problem. Assistant coaches do the footwork and relationship-building with players, parents and coaches, while the HC does the closing in recruiting. Cal's recruiting results have been good, but not good enough to compete at the elite level to which they aspire.

"Junior Bre Cavanaugh '15 turned down Louisville, Kentucky, Syracuse, Rutgers, Boston College and many other top programs to commit to the University of California at Berkely. Cavanaugh, the number-34 ranked player in her class and a electrifying combo guard is expected to play point guard for Cal, a program that went to the Final 4 just one year ago. Bre lives in Allamuchy, N.J., and is a four-year Blair starter."