You dismissed my opinion from the get go which is why I asked about your view. You asked me to prove that democrats haven't f'd it up and I pointed out that the non-democratic areas are even worse. You could connect the dots but choose not to.OdontoBear66 said:That is a "proof"? That is any suggestion of solution? That is "I threw a stone at you, so you throw one at me." The attack cr*p makes me step back. No discussion here. Have a pleasant day Unit.Unit2Sucks said:Sure, right after you do the same for rural areas in this country which have been under Republican rule forever. Crime is rising faster in Republican controlled areas than democratic ones. Opioids are destroying rural communities and their economies are failing further and further behind urban areas. Even within red states, the places with strong economies are all urban. Republicans like to virtue signal about farmers and cowboys but other than farming handouts (which largely benefit large corporate donors) they haven't lifted a finger in decades to help.OdontoBear66 said:C'mon Unit, I know you love forensics, but the Dems have totally controlled urban big cities in the US almost without exception for the last 60 years. What has gotten better? What has gotten worse? And with that you wish to throw stones at anyone pointing it out. It is what it is. And yes, it is not only your problem. It is mine too. But the gall to attack any attempt at solutions when yours have failed so miserably is laughable.Unit2Sucks said:Do you have any evidence of charter schools reducing crime? I understand how unregulated charter schools are good for the grifters who profit from them but I don't see how they will reduce crime.OdontoBear66 said:Let it start with one simple approach. I would support any effort to change the failure of the public schools that are failing in urban areas. I suspect and hope there are tons of students in those areas who would love to learn and do so at a higher level than they are being taught right now. I also realize that there will be many who just don't care. You need to start somewhere. Public schools, as constructed, are not working. So let the parents of the aforementioned students gain vouchers for high quality charter schools with the best of the best school teachers and in a "safe" environment. Yes, that means strong arming situations that don't work now.The opportunity needs to be provided but not in a harassing culture where education is demeaned.Unit2Sucks said:Perception of crime is always on the rise, regardless of reality. Conservative media is a big part of that. Crime has been on a consistent decline for 30 years yet you believe the opposite to be true. How do you propose we deal with that problem?OdontoBear66 said:But the perception of crime in NYC is very bad by even the locals. That is the problem.Unit2Sucks said:How will that work? Crime is lower in NYC now than when Giuliani was there. Sounds like you think putting more black men in jail will help black families. Do I have that right?kelly09 said:
More mayors and DA's like Giuliani and no one in city government like Libby, Lori or Garcetti. Yup, that'll work.We can ignore what I think if you believe my solutions are bad. Just tell us what your solutions are and what they will change. We don't need to talk about Fox News boogeymen Jesse and Al, just talk about what you think a good approach is. You believe "my" approach is wrong so tell me more about your approach. I agree improving education is a "start" but what else do you think needs to be done? Tell me how getting rid of unions improve the education of black youths. Tell me how you get rid of unions. Is that with the big bad federal government or will state governments go union busting?OdontoBear66 said:Couldn't agree more that black children do not have equality of opportunity. I just have different reasons for that than you probably do. None of my reasons relate to Jesse and Al solutions---they have contributed immensely to the problem while enriching themselves.Unit2Sucks said:OdontoBear66 said:But both eight times the homicides and also eight times being a victim of homicde. What does that suggest?going4roses said:
You know data can be used to tell one's narrative
Pointing out that black people are far more likely to be homicide victims every time white people perpetrate racist mass murders of black people doesn't make you look the way you think it does.
Why don't you tell us what you think it suggests. To me, it doesn't suggest that black children are growing up in a just country where there is equality of opportunity.
It's pretty pathetic and shows that people like you don't value black lives. Black lives matter even if you don't agree.
Sorry but I do value black lives. Your approaches have not worked for decades in urban areas and things keep getting worse, even with more money thrown at it. If the current solutions continue, the problems only get worse as they have for the last 60 years of my life. What is being done is not helping--maybe assisting basic survival, but not assisting in change for the better.
There is a contrdiction in the whims of the Dem Party that protecting school teachers and their unions helps blacks toward equality. Not so. Quite the contrary. Education improvement would be a start.
Prove to me that conservatives actually have answers. We heard for years that Obamacare was the problem with healthcare and that Republicans would "repeal and replace" with a fantastic health care law that was always 2 weeks away. We heard the same thing about immigration and infrastructure. As far as I can tell, other than lowering taxes, Republicans haven't authored any meaningful legislation in years. What I think it mostly boils down to is conservatives believing that black Americans have a "bad culture" and that it's not "our" fault. That's why Republicans have no proposals other than to encourage black people to be better.
Prove me wrong and tell me what I'm missing.
I don't mean to have the solutions but I can certainly see the problem. Safety, education, and the ability to self improve. Blame the unions? Well they have sponsored a solution that has not worked and fought anything else that "may" work. No assurances, but with the record, a try is worth it.
Oh, and Unit, I need not prove anything, especially to you. I can hold opinions, and I do that. The above is a start, is certainly not bullet proof, but I assure you what the Dems have done in urban America is not the answer. And that is the biggest problem. Don't get me started on crime. With 8 times the homicides per capita and 8 times the victimization per capita, it would be hard to make a start here, but a must. This is not under those horrible Republicans. And even Elon Musk isn't the mayor. I guess all is well in your perception, eh?
And quite frankly the problems that exist are so mammoth that a simple arse guy like me can only try to use common sense but humbly believes the solutions are beyond me. I focus more on my inner circle, maintain that; finding that in itself is a great contribution to society. Individualism!
As I suspected, you don't really have an answer. You may as well just say repeal and replace black crime.
If we want to reduce the crime rates that black people face, we need reduce institutional racism and increase the opportunities available to them. Investing in their communities is a good start. Black families have much lower household wealth and their communities see far lower public and private investment. School choice is like super glue on a gunshot wound. It's an action but there is no reason to believe it will make a difference.
As I suspected, you don't really have anything useful to offer apart from demonizing government institutions. You are right you don't have to prove anything to me, but if you want people to view your opinion as credible it would help if you could do better than pretending unregulated charter schools are going to reduce crime in any meaningful way.
As you would say, "Prove" to me that the Dems haven't F'ed it up.
What are Republicans going to repeal and replace to help their constituents? I think we both know the Republican Party doesn't have any answers and isn't focused on the problems in non urban communities.
I'm not a victim and don't mind the stones you think you are throwing. I have no issue defending my opinions. My opinion is that the Republican Party blames people of color for being victims of centuries of slavery and subsequent institutional racism. They have no interest in changing the status quo because it benefits them and forms a cornerstone of the white grievance that is driving the Republican Party.
Democrats don't have all the answers, far from it, but they at least have evinced a desire to move things in the right direction. If we could all agree that something needs to be done, that would be a great starting point but we aren't even at step one because Republicans think the problem is people of color themselves. Sometimes they blame it on culture, sometimes they come right out and say it, but the core issue is the same. That's why Kelly brought up that black people face higher crime rates. It wasn't out of any sympathy or concern but rather to point out that he thinks black people are inferior and should stop being inferior before blaming white people for their problems. We've all seen this story many times before which is why I objected to his attempt to divert this thread.
I agree that people who want to make a difference need to start at home. The problem is, as I got into above, that people don't really want to make a difference, they just want to blame black people for failing to overcome centuries of pernicious racism.going4roses said:
If you are of European decent or European ambiguous looking or a model minorities with "white Supremacy mindset" you guys need to fix it in your own house your own family your own place of business.
White Supremacy is a mental illness that effects everyone some In certain ways versus others. To some it's this to others it's the exact opposite.
So many of the people on this board believe that their success in life is proof that they overcame all adversity they faced and that had they been faced with even more adversity they would have figured out a way. They point to black people who overcame the odds and think that any one person should do so. They don't understand how population level statistics work or the fact that we can't individually level up society. The fact that we all know black individuals who became successful through hard work, education and professional careers doesn't mean all black individuals can do so.
Which is what underpins my conversation with Odonto. He thinks he has identified a problem, but he's avoiding looking for the root cause. Saying that education is a problem and that it can be fixed through charter schools is lazy and ignores the root cause. Charter schools don't lift up communities, they at best would help some individuals whose parents help them get in. At worst, they are just a big grift run by for profit entities looking to usurp public funds for themselves, as has been documented for a number of these schools.
The idea that white people opposed to WS can fix other white people is no different from white people demanding that black people fix their own communities without any outside help. Fixing what's wrong with this country is going to require consistent long-term execution against an effective strategy as well as public and private investment and will constantly be held back by people like Odonto who believe in "moderation in all things".
