US Supreme Court Empowers The People And Their Representatives Regulate Abortion

21,453 Views | 278 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by DiabloWags
tequila4kapp
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calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!
Pretty much, but as with most legal things it's never 100%.

The new legal test for Abortion disputes is Rational Basis. This is the lowest legal standard, which means most (but not all) abortion restrictions will be legally allowed. An outright ban of abortions is effectively impossible, but I guess maybe there is some crazy state interest somewhere sometime that has a rational basis to a ban (real life answer: no, that's never happening). I also believe the worst of the worst for pro choice people - not allowing abortions in the case of rape, incest, health of the mother - as well as abortion restrictions so early the mother couldn't know or know in time to have an opportunity to get an abortion are very hard to defend and highly likely to fail the RB test. But we are going to see legally allowed restrictions creeping toward less and less time.

But note this cuts both ways. Right to life types are going to get a reality check and soon. Abortions will be allowed into the 3rd trimester, up to to birth, under the RB test. And how many women live in CA, NY, NJ, MA, IL, MI, PA? Soon enough people are going to get over their joy of yesterday's decision and realize this "W" didn't exactly give them the result they think they got.

I missed Paragraph 2. Your summary is correct. It's important to recognize and acknowledge the C is designed in large part to protect the fundamental rights of the individual against the will of the majority. IMO the court isn't wrong per se to toss this over the fence to the legislative process BUT it's a position that is definitely naturally at conflict with a core principle of the C, too. A good test for these things is to ask how I would feel about it being handled this way if it was (insert some right I/you care about). Not all rights are the same, not all rights have the same C underpinnings. But that's still a decent starting point for assessing just letting people vote.
sycasey
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calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!

Yes. A similar ruling would also allow states to deny marriage rights to same-sex or mixed-race couples, as they once did.

Would we be cool with that?
SBGold
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Manger or manager?
sycasey
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dajo9
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calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Yes, you misunderstand. Previously individuals had the right to choose what to do with their bodies. Now, big brother government is telling individuals what they can and can't do with their bodies.
BearForce2
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sycasey said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!

Yes. A similar ruling would also allow states to deny marriage rights to same-sex or mixed-race couples, as they once did.

Would we be cool with that?

The only people I hear constantly yapping about interracial marriage, not surprisingly, is Democrats.

"They're going to put y'all back in chains."
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
calbear80
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calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!
DiabloWags
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calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Do you understand that in 2020, there were 7500 abortions at three clinics in Alabama, the majority of which involved black mothers who already had at least one child?

Do you understand that "Trigger Laws" have been instituted in many southern states that dont even make an exception for cases of incest, and even rape? And when there is an exception for rape, the woman needs to file charges against the rapist?

Where are these Alabaman's now supposed to go for their medical care?
Anarchistbear
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calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters who are political
appointments by one party.
Cal_79
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Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?
Anarchistbear
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Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism
dimitrig
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calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


The Constitution doesn't declare a right to marriage either. There are a lot of things the Constitution doesn't declare, but that doesn't give states the ability to control people's lives.

dajo9
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Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters who are political
appointments by one party.


Holy cow, anarchistbear is finally making sense
dajo9
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calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


The 9th amendment. If you don't have a right to control your body you can't have any rights. Give me a right you can have if the state can control your body.
calbear80
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Please keep in mind that there are precedents for the US Supreme Court correcting previous erroneous decisions. Here is one major example.

In 1896, in landmark Plessy vs. Ferguson decision, US Supreme Court ruled that "separate but equal" laws are constitutional. This ruling legalized excluding "colored" people from "white" colleges, restaurants, etc. Today we all strongly disagree with this discriminatory ruling.

In 1954, 58 years later, in an even bigger landmark Brown vs. Board of Education decision, the US Supreme overturned Plessy decision and declared "separate but equal" laws were unconstitutional. Today, we all agree with this decision. BTW, the key man in overturning Brown vs. Board of Education was Chief Justice Earl Warren, a Cal alum (both BA and LLB).

So, the fact that "separate but equal" was the law of the land for 58 years does not make it a good law. Today, we Cal alums are all very happy that Supreme Court overturned the "equal but separate" decision. I am sure at the time millions of people (specially in the South) were very angry with this decision and pointed out Plessy had been the law of the land for 58 years. But, that does not make it right.

Therefore, US Supreme Court overturning Roe vs. Wade has precedent and that argument cannot be used against the US Supreme Court.

The question still remains: What specific section of the US Constitution grants right to abortion?

I, like most of you here, do not like that US Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade, but, the solution is changing the law not criticizing the US Supreme Court.

Go Bears!

Since someone may point out that Roe vs. Wade had been later reaffirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court and should not be overturned, please note that Plessy had been reaffirmed by the US Supreme Court at least twice (1898 Cummings case and 1908 Berea College case). Therefore, there are clear precedence for the US Supreme Court overturning previous decisions which they considered erroneous.

Go Bears!
calbear80
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SBGold said:

Manger or manager?


Fixed it. Thank you for pointing out this typo (I had typed this message on a mobile device deep in the backwoods of Alaska).

Go Bears!
DiabloWags
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dajo9 said:





The 9th amendment. If you don't have a right to control your body you can't have any rights. Give me a right you can have if the state can control your body.

Bingo.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

BearForce2
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SBGold said:

Manger or manager?

Tke a wld gss.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
sycasey
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calbear80 said:

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

Please show me the specific section of the Constitution that says interracial marriage must be legal.
sycasey
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Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.
BearForce2
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.

The Court didn't eliminate a constitutional right to abortion, it affirmed there never was such a right to begin with.
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
sycasey
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BearForce2 said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.

The Court didn't eliminate a constitutional right to abortion, it affirmed there never was such a right to begin with.
In other words, it affirmed the right and then 50 years later said "never mind." This means that we can no longer be confident in any "right" once affirmed by the Court. They're all up for debate.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Yes, you misunderstand. Previously individuals had the right to choose what to do with their bodies. Now, big brother government is telling individuals what they can and can't do with their bodies.
Here we go again. This is just more BS. The government regulates the hell out of what we can do of no due with out bodies, not to mention tell us what we have to do with our bodies.

The government can tell you what you can put in your body or how old you have to be to put something in your body, or when you can do it before you get in a car, or what you can and can't smoke and where, or even how much, or if you can physically harm yourself, or take on behavior where you might hurt yourself, or kill yourself (a crime if only if you survive), or when you can use it to have sex, whether I can sell or use portions of my body such as organs, or how, in certain times in the country's history even compelled to donate blood. It can tell us we can be called to duty, fight wars on its terms, and ordered into positions where we likely will be killed. Recent cases involving ground breaking medical gene therapy, courts have held that you have no interest in your own cells even when they are used for commercial purposes and even when the people who donated their cells were lied to about the purpose of the donation. So you do not own your own body under the law. It can force you take a vaccine, it can quarantine you, it can under circumstances physically search you. Just the beginning.
[url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url]



dajo9
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wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Yes, you misunderstand. Previously individuals had the right to choose what to do with their bodies. Now, big brother government is telling individuals what they can and can't do with their bodies.
Here we go again. This is just more BS. The government regulates the hell out of what we can do of no due with out bodies, not to mention tell us what we have to do with our bodies.

The government can tell you what you can put in your body or how old you have to be to put something in your body, or when you can do it before you get in a car, or what you can and can't smoke and where, or even how much, or if you can physically harm yourself, or take on behavior where you might hurt yourself, or kill yourself (a crime if only if you survive), or when you can use it to have sex, whether I can sell or use portions of my body such as organs, or how, in certain times in the country's history even compelled to donate blood. It can tell us we can be called to duty, fight wars on its terms, and ordered into positions where we likely will be killed. Recent cases involving ground breaking medical gene therapy, courts have held that you have no interest in your own cells even when they are used for commercial purposes and even when the people who donated their cells were lied to about the purpose of the donation. So you do not own your own body under the law. It can force you take a vaccine, it can quarantine you, it can under circumstances physically search you. Just the beginning.
[url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url]






Yes and you already made your argument clear that we can deny rights to women because we deny rights to children. Or was that calbear93? Hard to tell you establishment conservatives apart. You all look the same to me.
wifeisafurd
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.
The right to bear arms, be compensated for loss of property, the right to have one's vote count, criminal procedure rights, and many other rights seems to go back and forth depending on the make-up of the court, These are all explicit rights.

The problem with implied rights is you want the ones you like but don't want the court to recognize the ones you don't like. Or you could hold the people you elect accountable to provide those rights.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Yes, you misunderstand. Previously individuals had the right to choose what to do with their bodies. Now, big brother government is telling individuals what they can and can't do with their bodies.
Here we go again. This is just more BS. The government regulates the hell out of what we can do of no due with out bodies, not to mention tell us what we have to do with our bodies.

The government can tell you what you can put in your body or how old you have to be to put something in your body, or when you can do it before you get in a car, or what you can and can't smoke and where, or even how much, or if you can physically harm yourself, or take on behavior where you might hurt yourself, or kill yourself (a crime if only if you survive), or when you can use it to have sex, whether I can sell or use portions of my body such as organs, or how, in certain times in the country's history even compelled to donate blood. It can tell us we can be called to duty, fight wars on its terms, and ordered into positions where we likely will be killed. Recent cases involving ground breaking medical gene therapy, courts have held that you have no interest in your own cells even when they are used for commercial purposes and even when the people who donated their cells were lied to about the purpose of the donation. So you do not own your own body under the law. It can force you take a vaccine, it can quarantine you, it can under circumstances physically search you. Just the beginning.
[url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url][url=https://www.hoganlegal.com/do-you-own-your-own-body/#][/url]






Yes and you already made your argument clear that we can deny rights to women because we deny rights to children. Or was that calbear93? Hard to tell you establishment conservatives apart. You all look the same to me.
There you go again. Two words: Joe Manchin.
sycasey
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wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.
The right to bear arms, be compensated for loss of property, the right to have one's vote count, criminal procedure rights, and many other rights seems to go back and forth depending on the make-up of the court, These are all explicit rights.

The problem with implied rights is you want the ones you like but don't want the court to recognize the ones you don't like. Or you could hold the people you elect accountable to provide those rights.

The limits may fluctuate, but I don't think a right (implied or otherwise) has ever been WIPED OUT by a court ruling like this. This still seems unprecedented.
Unit2Sucks
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Can't someone point me to the words in the constitution that says I can breathe? Drink water? Walk? Tuck my kids in at night? Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

This idea that the bill of rights was an exhaustive list of the rights that we the people have is exactly why many of the framers opposed their inclusion. It's why the ninth amendment was included. It's true the court has read the 9th amendment out of the constitution, as have many other people, but it was included for a reason and the very thing that the bought and paid for conservative SCOTUS is doing right now was feared by Hamilton and others.

Don't believe me? Read Federalist 84.

Here's the salient part, but this is merely an excerpt. Please read the whole thing. What you will find is that the Constitution was never intended to enumerate every single minutiae. It's less than 5,000 words. Bill Simmons could barely get through the first quarter of an NBA playoff game with that word count.

Quote:

The most considerable of the remaining objections is that the plan of the convention contains no bill of rights. Among other answers given to this, it has been upon different occasions remarked that the constitutions of several of the States are in a similar predicament. I add that New York is of the number. And yet the opposers of the new system, in this State, who profess an unlimited admiration for its constitution, are among the most intemperate partisans of a bill of rights. To justify their zeal in this matter, they allege two things: one is that, though the constitution of New York has no bill of rights prefixed to it, yet it contains, in the body of it, various provisions in favor of particular privileges and rights, which, in substance amount to the same thing; the other is, that the Constitution adopts, in their full extent, the common and statute law of Great Britain, by which many other rights, not expressed in it, are equally secured.

...

But a minute detail of particular rights is certainly far less applicable to a Constitution like that under consideration, which is merely intended to regulate the general political interests of the nation, than to a constitution which has the regulation of every species of personal and private concerns. If, therefore, the loud clamors against the plan of the convention, on this score, are well founded, no epithets of reprobation will be too strong for the constitution of this State. But the truth is, that both of them contain all which, in relation to their objects, is reasonably to be desired.

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power. They might urge with a semblance of reason, that the Constitution ought not to be charged with the absurdity of providing against the abuse of an authority which was not given, and that the provision against restraining the liberty of the press afforded a clear implication, that a power to prescribe proper regulations concerning it was intended to be vested in the national government. This may serve as a specimen of the numerous handles which would be given to the doctrine of constructive powers, by the indulgence of an injudicious zeal for bills of rights.

The conservative movement doesn't really believe in limiting their interpretation of the constitution to the text itself, as evidenced by Alito's reliance on "history" for his opinion in Dobbs. Lots of things happened in history, so let's stop pretending that the conservative movement is strict constructionist when they are picking and choosing what they like. It was several decades after the constitution was drafted before the first state began to limit abortion (beyond ~15-20 weeks). Almost all of the delegates who signed the Constitution died before that state limited abortion.

I do hold out hope that something good may come from this terrible decision and miscarriage of justice. Perhaps it will galvanize people to vote out politicians who aren't serving their interests. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by Diablo and others, we are going to experience the deprivation of rights for a lot of women for some period of time, elevated maternal mortality, and numerous other terrible consequences.

I feel bad for poor women stuck in ****hole states because they are going to suffer most of the negative consequences, which I guess to Alito's ultimate point is deeply rooted in the history of the US. So I guess he was right about that.

DiabloWags
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Unit2Sucks said:


The conservative movement doesn't really believe in limiting their interpretation of the constitution to the text itself, as evidenced by Alito's reliance on "history" for his opinion in Dobbs. Lots of things happened in history, so let's stop pretending that the conservative movement is strict constructionist when they are picking and choosing what they like. It was several decades after the constitution was drafted before the first state began to limit abortion (beyond ~15-20 weeks). Almost all of the delegates who signed the Constitution died before that state limited abortion.

I do hold out hope that something good may come from this terrible decision and miscarriage of justice. Perhaps it will galvanize people to vote out politicians who aren't serving their interests. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by Diablo and others, we are going to experience the deprivation of rights for a lot of women for some period of time, elevated maternal mortality, and numerous other terrible consequences.

I feel bad for poor women stuck in ****hole states because they are going to suffer most of the negative consequences, which I guess to Alito's ultimate point is deeply rooted in the history of the US. So I guess he was right about that.



It's pretty clear that Alito is "cherry-picking"
Excellent post!
calbear80
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sycasey said:

calbear80 said:

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

Please show me the specific section of the Constitution that says interracial marriage must be legal.


Are you saying that interracial marriage should be banned? I disagree.

And, how do you define interracial marriage? A Chinese marrying an Italian? An African American with ancestry from Egypt (white skin, dark brown hair and hazel eyes) marring an Irish? A Hawaiian marring a Samoan? A Russian (Slavic race) marrying an English person (Anglo)? H

I disagree with banning interracial marriage.

Go Bears!
sycasey
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calbear80 said:

sycasey said:

calbear80 said:

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

Please show me the specific section of the Constitution that says interracial marriage must be legal.


Are you saying that interracial marriage be banned? I disagree.

Um, no. I'm saying the "right" to marry who you want was interpreted by the Supreme Court, just as abortion rights once were. The actual text says nothing about either.
DiabloWags
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calbear80 said:

sycasey said:

calbear80 said:

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

Please show me the specific section of the Constitution that says interracial marriage must be legal.


Are you saying that interracial marriage be banned? I disagree.

And, how do you define interracial marriage? A Chinese marrying an Italian? An African American with ancestry from Egypt (white skin, dark brown hair and hazel eyes) marring an Irish? A Hawaiian marring a Samoan?

I disagree with banning interracial marriage.

Go Bears!

No, that's not what Sycasey is saying.

You had asked to be shown a specific section of the Constitution that grants the right to abortion.

He countered by asking you what specific section of the Constitution says that interracial marriage is legal.
In fact, the Constitution doesnt mention anything about marriage, period.
And yet SCOTUS has interpreted who you have the "right" to marry.

So your claim that the Constitution mentions nothing about abortion is literally meaningless.

calbear80
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BearForce2 said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal_79 said:

Anarchistbear said:

calbear80 said:

calbear80 said:

Do I misunderstand that there is nothing in the US Supreme Court decision that bans abortion?

Do I misunderstand that the US Supreme Court decision empowers people of each state and their elected representatives to decide rather than the Big Brother from Washington mandate things?

Go Bears!


Thank you for those who provided information on this.

The question is not whether we like or not like the Supreme Court decision (I personally do not like this decision at all). The question is what does the Constitution say.

Could someone refer me to the specific section of the US Constitution that grant right to abortion.

If not, then isn't Supreme Court correct stating that the Constitution does not grant right to abortion?

And, if the Constitution does not grant right to abortion, those who like to see that right be granted, can work to get an Amendment approved (not easy) rather than criticizing Supreme Court for stating what is in the Constitution.

Go Bears!


Well previous Constitutional interpreters did declare a "right" up to yesterday. Why should rights be summarily removed by people with no accountability to voters.

How were those previous Constitutional interpreters accountable to the voters?


They weren't. The system is bogus and an extension of the legislative branch. That said, when something is in place for decades with general agreement and exercised by voters, the criminalization of this activity represents a radical departure and exercise in authoritarianism

As far as I can tell, this is the first time the Supreme Court has outright taken away a "right" it had previously granted. Yes, there were bad decisions like Dred Scott and Plessy that eventually got overturned, but those were essentially maintaining the status quo at the time. That's why this is different. It's a major upheaval and we lose rights. Authoritarian is right.

The Court didn't eliminate a constitutional right to abortion, it affirmed there never was such a right to begin with.

+1
Unit2Sucks
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A lot of people who aren't that familiar with the constitution and its history think that there is one correct interpretation but that's simply not giving the framers credit for the framework they created.

Just as one example, I would point to one of the initial amendments introduced by Madison (which was among the 17 eventually approved by the house) that talked about separation of powers.

Quote:

Art. 16. The powers delegated by the constitution to the government of the United States, shall be exercised as therein appropriated, so that the legislative shall never exercise the powers vested in the executive or judicial; nor the executive the powers vested in the legislative or judicial; nor the judicial the powers vested in the legislative or executive.

You could argue, as some did back then, that the amendment was unnecessary because the concept was implicit. Or you could argue that the decision not to adopt the amendment was evidence that the boundaries are a bit fuzzier. Over the last 2+ centuries, we've seen a lot of "interpretation" by SCOTUS that has effectively created an entire separation of powers jurisprudence that wouldn't have developed the same way if that amendment had been approved by the senate and ratified by the states.

There was debate amongst the framers about how things were supposed to work and I think it's a bit simplistic to pretend that judges (modern or historical) aren't picking and choosing how to interpret things.
juarezbear
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Unit2Sucks said:

Can't someone point me to the words in the constitution that says I can breathe? Drink water? Walk? Tuck my kids in at night? Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

This idea that the bill of rights was an exhaustive list of the rights that we the people have is exactly why many of the framers opposed their inclusion. It's why the ninth amendment was included. It's true the court has read the 9th amendment out of the constitution, as have many other people, but it was included for a reason and the very thing that the bought and paid for conservative SCOTUS is doing right now was feared by Hamilton and others.

Don't believe me? Read Federalist 84.

Here's the salient part, but this is merely an excerpt. Please read the whole thing. What you will find is that the Constitution was never intended to enumerate every single minutiae. It's less than 5,000 words. Bill Simmons could barely get through the first quarter of an NBA playoff game with that word count.

Quote:

The most considerable of the remaining objections is that the plan of the convention contains no bill of rights. Among other answers given to this, it has been upon different occasions remarked that the constitutions of several of the States are in a similar predicament. I add that New York is of the number. And yet the opposers of the new system, in this State, who profess an unlimited admiration for its constitution, are among the most intemperate partisans of a bill of rights. To justify their zeal in this matter, they allege two things: one is that, though the constitution of New York has no bill of rights prefixed to it, yet it contains, in the body of it, various provisions in favor of particular privileges and rights, which, in substance amount to the same thing; the other is, that the Constitution adopts, in their full extent, the common and statute law of Great Britain, by which many other rights, not expressed in it, are equally secured.

...

But a minute detail of particular rights is certainly far less applicable to a Constitution like that under consideration, which is merely intended to regulate the general political interests of the nation, than to a constitution which has the regulation of every species of personal and private concerns. If, therefore, the loud clamors against the plan of the convention, on this score, are well founded, no epithets of reprobation will be too strong for the constitution of this State. But the truth is, that both of them contain all which, in relation to their objects, is reasonably to be desired.

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power. They might urge with a semblance of reason, that the Constitution ought not to be charged with the absurdity of providing against the abuse of an authority which was not given, and that the provision against restraining the liberty of the press afforded a clear implication, that a power to prescribe proper regulations concerning it was intended to be vested in the national government. This may serve as a specimen of the numerous handles which would be given to the doctrine of constructive powers, by the indulgence of an injudicious zeal for bills of rights.

The conservative movement doesn't really believe in limiting their interpretation of the constitution to the text itself, as evidenced by Alito's reliance on "history" for his opinion in Dobbs. Lots of things happened in history, so let's stop pretending that the conservative movement is strict constructionist when they are picking and choosing what they like. It was several decades after the constitution was drafted before the first state began to limit abortion (beyond ~15-20 weeks). Almost all of the delegates who signed the Constitution died before that state limited abortion.

I do hold out hope that something good may come from this terrible decision and miscarriage of justice. Perhaps it will galvanize people to vote out politicians who aren't serving their interests. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by Diablo and others, we are going to experience the deprivation of rights for a lot of women for some period of time, elevated maternal mortality, and numerous other terrible consequences.

I feel bad for poor women stuck in ****hole states because they are going to suffer most of the negative consequences, which I guess to Alito's ultimate point is deeply rooted in the history of the US. So I guess he was right about that.




The other part of the states right argument is that gerrymandering has made fair elections very hard to come by.
 
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