The death of a liberal eduction

1,927 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by wifeisafurd
wifeisafurd
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Probably not what you think. Humanity majors are on the way out (I was double major, one being Econ. so I had some exposure to the non-technical) before enduring Business and Law Schools. But apparently no one is bothering anymore, either your STEM or Business. The New Yorker article looks at and bats down all the usual arguments and basically says students just don't view the majors as marketable anymore:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major?utm_source=onsite-share&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=onsite-share&utm_brand=the-new-yorker

This is somewhat ironic as an alum at a school where the Chancellor was an English Lit Prof.


I guess we will find out a couple decades from now if the students were correct.
dimitrig
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wifeisafurd said:

Probably not what you think. Humanity majors are on the way out (I was double major, one being Econ. so I had some exposure to the non-technical) so I got some exposure before enduring Business and Law Schools. But apparently no one is bothering anymore, either your STEM or Business. The New Yorker article looks at and bats down all the usual arguments and basically says students just don't view the majors as marketable anymore:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major?utm_source=onsite-share&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=onsite-share&utm_brand=the-new-yorker

This is somewhat ironic as an alum at a school where the Chancellor was an English Lit Prof.

I guess we will find out a couple decades from now if the students were correct.


The problem is that college has gotten so expensive that people can't afford to obtain degrees that don't result in lucrative jobs right out of school. There are a lot of high paying jobs in academia (UC Berkeley Chancellor for example) and other fields like art but they are competitive and take time to move up. Meanwhile, a software engineer can be making $100K right out of school.

I believe in the adage that if you do what you love the money will follow. Well, that's not always true but happiness will follow and money can't buy happiness.

Some of the most miserable professionals are dentists and lawyers and yet they are well paid and generally respected. I would never advocate getting a degree in order to get a job or make money. I am surprised at how many people do just that. I think there is a place for liberal arts degrees and I hope that we can better support those important fields through scholarships and more interdisciplinary studies.

A lot of younger librarians I know are very tech savvy and have used that to really advance their field with knowledge of search, information organization, databases, etc. They often amaze me with how tech literate they are. That is a good example of a liberal arts field that has really transformed itself with a little bit of multidisciplinary knowledge. I don't think most librarians want to code but they are able to write requirements for people that can.

UX is another similar field with a blend of marketing, art, and tech that people who aren't strictly interested in STEM seem to gravitate to and do well at.

If we were all math, science, engineering, and business majors the world would be really dull.


dimitrig
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From the article:

"There are institutional outliers to the recent trend of enrollment decline; the most prominent is U.C. Berkeley"

.
okaydo
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going4roses
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The gate keepers have not changed
How (are) you gonna win when you ain’t right within…
oski003
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going4roses said:

The gate keepers have not changed


Are the current gatekeepers the same gatekeepers that elected a black president and black female vice president?
TandemBear
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wifeisafurd
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dimitrig said:


From the article:

"There are institutional outliers to the recent trend of enrollment decline; the most prominent is U.C. Berkeley"

.
I did notice that. Couple thoughts: .

First, the English Dept. has historically been one to top, if not the top rated department in the nation, so you can get into top grad schools, and not just in humanities. Same general applies to several different humanities majors. The 3 wealthiest Cal alums I know all ended-up in finance, and all three were humanities majors at Cal (one majored in English).

Which gets to point 2, which is antidotal and I have heard from OC teens, that supposedly Cal in humanities undergrads teaches you to be PHD, and become an academic. Now bear in mind this comes from the mouths of teens, but these type of things also have a way of self-perpetuating, where Cal may be getting greater interest from students who are interested in academia.

One thing I found interesting was the utter lack of humanities majors at Harvard, a school where once you get in your ticket is written. Excessively high GPAs, no worries about paying tuition, and jobs in every type of endeavor waiting for you no matter the major, or entrance to any grad school unless you are a complete screw-up.
sycasey
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Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
wifeisafurd
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sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
sycasey
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wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
wifeisafurd
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sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
The article suggested that had been historically true, but not in the recent business cycles. I guess under your perspective we will find out in 2032 or 2042 if what happened started in 2012 is just a blip or not.

sycasey
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wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
The article suggested that had been historically true, but not in the recent business cycles. I guess under your perspective we will find out in 2032 or 2042 if what happened started in 2012 is just a blip or not.
Right, it could be a new trend that continues forever or it could just be people reacting to Great Recession > weak recovery > COVID. The crisis period doesn't necessarily last forever.
wifeisafurd
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Interestingly, with only 9% of Harvard undergrads as liberal arts majors, if is bordering on (if you throw out the UK and Ireland) the European countries which separate out what colleges emphasize. For example, in France, there are universities which are liberal arts, and and Higher Schools ("Grandes Ecoles") which offer scientific and management curricula. Demand for universities have dropped, while Higher Schools keep adding qualifications to make admissions tougher. For example, you now need English proficiency (and they mean very proficient) and have to be typically in the top 10% of all students. So many European countries also are seeing much greater demand to go to scientific and management colleges.

It should be noted there still are major differences: the general view in most of Europe is that college is not for the common person, but only top students, is focused on your chosen area, the may be on tuition or low tuition (relative to the US, UK and Ireland) and does not include sports, living at school, greek systems, etc. There often also is a focus on trade or vocation schools, such as in hospitality. Also there seems a desire to have large numbers of international students. For example in Switzerland , 27% of the MBAs and 52% of the PHD grads are international students, who are rigorously recruited by Swiss employers.
wifeisafurd
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sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
The article suggested that had been historically true, but not in the recent business cycles. I guess under your perspective we will find out in 2032 or 2042 if what happened started in 2012 is just a blip or not.
Right, it could be a new trend that continues forever or it could just be people reacting to Great Recession > weak recovery > COVID. The crisis period doesn't necessarily last forever.
No, I get that. A lot of things could change. That said, If anything, it seems the job market has been strong recently.
sycasey
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wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
The article suggested that had been historically true, but not in the recent business cycles. I guess under your perspective we will find out in 2032 or 2042 if what happened started in 2012 is just a blip or not.
Right, it could be a new trend that continues forever or it could just be people reacting to Great Recession > weak recovery > COVID. The crisis period doesn't necessarily last forever.
No, I get that. A lot of things could change. That said, If anything, it seems the job market has been strong recently.

Not in my industry (high tech), where we have massive layoffs!

But anyway, even if the market is strong it will take a little time and consistency for that to change people's attitudes.
wifeisafurd
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sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

wifeisafurd said:

sycasey said:

Aren't these things kind of cyclical? When the job market is tough people turn to practical majors. When it gets better people feel more free to experiment.
The answer from the article is not anymore. Just a down hill slide.
From 2012 to pandemic time? Not sure that's going against cycle. I'm thinking more in, like, 20-30 year increments.
The article suggested that had been historically true, but not in the recent business cycles. I guess under your perspective we will find out in 2032 or 2042 if what happened started in 2012 is just a blip or not.
Right, it could be a new trend that continues forever or it could just be people reacting to Great Recession > weak recovery > COVID. The crisis period doesn't necessarily last forever.
No, I get that. A lot of things could change. That said, If anything, it seems the job market has been strong recently.

Not in my industry (high tech), where we have massive layoffs!

But anyway, even if the market is strong it will take a little time and consistency for that to change people's attitudes.
Doesn't tech hire more STEM and business grads than humanities grads?
Big C
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wifeisafurd said:

Interestingly, with only 9% of Harvard undergrads as liberal arts majors, if is bordering on (if you throw out the UK and Ireland) the European countries which separate out what colleges emphasize. For example, in France, there are universities which are liberal arts, and and Higher Schools ("Grandes Ecoles") which offer scientific and management curricula. Demand for universities have dropped, while Higher Schools keep adding qualifications to make admissions tougher. For example, you now need English proficiency (and they mean very proficient) and have to be typically in the top 10% of all students. So many European countries also are seeing much greater demand to go to scientific and management colleges.

It should be noted there still are major differences: the general view in most of Europe is that college is not for the common person, but only top students, is focused on your chosen area, the may be on tuition or low tuition (relative to the US, UK and Ireland) and does not include sports, living at school, greek systems, etc. There often also is a focus on trade or vocation schools, such as in hospitality. Also there seems a desire to have large numbers of international students. For example in Switzerland , 27% of the MBAs and 52% of the PHD grads are international students, who are rigorously recruited by Swiss employers.

What are some of the top undergrad majors at Harvard that comprise this 90+ percent that aren't liberal arts?
wifeisafurd
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Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

Interestingly, with only 9% of Harvard undergrads as liberal arts majors, if is bordering on (if you throw out the UK and Ireland) the European countries which separate out what colleges emphasize. For example, in France, there are universities which are liberal arts, and and Higher Schools ("Grandes Ecoles") which offer scientific and management curricula. Demand for universities have dropped, while Higher Schools keep adding qualifications to make admissions tougher. For example, you now need English proficiency (and they mean very proficient) and have to be typically in the top 10% of all students. So many European countries also are seeing much greater demand to go to scientific and management colleges.

It should be noted there still are major differences: the general view in most of Europe is that college is not for the common person, but only top students, is focused on your chosen area, the may be on tuition or low tuition (relative to the US, UK and Ireland) and does not include sports, living at school, greek systems, etc. There often also is a focus on trade or vocation schools, such as in hospitality. Also there seems a desire to have large numbers of international students. For example in Switzerland , 27% of the MBAs and 52% of the PHD grads are international students, who are rigorously recruited by Swiss employers.

What are some of the top undergrad majors at Harvard that comprise this 90+ percent that aren't liberal arts?
Here some relevant language from the article "In 2022, though, a survey found that only seven per cent of Harvard freshmen planned to major in the humanities, down from twenty per cent in 2012, and nearly thirty per cent during the nineteen-seventies. From fifteen years ago to the start of the pandemic, the number of Harvard English majors reportedly declined by about three-quartersin 2020, there were fewer than sixty at a college of more than seven thousandand philosophy and foreign literatures also sustained losses. (For bureaucratic reasons, Harvard doesn't count history as a humanity, but the trend holds.) "We feel we're on the Titanic," a senior professor in the English department told me."

That doesn't tell you what they major in. This is not 2026 class (2022 freshman), but here the majors for 2021 grads, which is the latest numbers I could find for STEM like majors with percentages being of the 2026 class:


Econometrics and quantitative economics9.4% (future fund managers?)
Computer science8.4%
Applied mathematics5.1%
Mathematics4%
Neuroscience3.8%
Experimental psychology3.7%
Evolutionary biology3.6%
Statistics 3%
Physics2.3%
Natural sciences2.2%
Developmental biology and embryology2.1%
Cell/cellular and molecular biology1.8%
Engineering science1.4%
Chemistry1.4%
Philosophy1.3%
Environmental studies1.2%
Chemistry1.1%
Anthropology1.1%
Linguistics0.7%
Mechanical engineering0.7%
Neurobiology and anatomy0.7%
Bioengineering and biomedical engineering0.5%
Astronomy and astrophysics0.4%
Chemical physics0.4%
Electrical and electronics engineering0.3%




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