Tens of millions voted for him

going4roses said:

---

Tens of millions voted for him

---

G4R has a point. Obamacare has horrible poll numbers when passed, but is viewed somewhat positive by the polls these days. Just try taking away its benefits.

Likewise, try taxing tips, overtime, etc. in the future. You think any President is going to allow the senior deduction to lapse? My guess is any benefit tor the Dems is short tun and as usual they screw it up by suggesting the tax benefits end. Voting blue these days often feels like voting stupid.

Trump's 2016 tax cuts were not changed when the Dems had power and neither will these. Their affluent base and donors are served by them despite the 3 am speechifying.

Right, the both sides are equally terrible argument. For those who don't want to sit it out, though, and want a nuanced view of the current landscape, read on...


"The Democrats generally must rely on a coalition with a larger ideological spectrum to pass legislation.

The 117th Congress elected in 2020 and sitting from 2021 to 2023 is the last Congress where the Democrats had a majority in the House and Senate while holding the Presidency. The Democratic majority in the Senate during the 117th Congress was actually a 50/50 split with VP Harris casting the tie-breaking vote for the majority.

The Democrats, to achieve a 50/50 split had:

Senators from the following states:

Arizona, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 49.3% D v 49.0% R

Montana, one senator : 2020 Presidential result 40.6% D v 56.9% R

Nevada, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 50.1% D v. 47.7% R

Georgia, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 49.5% D v. 49.2% R

Ohio, one senator : 2020 Presidental result 45.2% D v. 53.3% R

Pennsylvania, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 49.9% D v 48.7% R

Michigan, two senators: 2020 Presidential result 50.6% D v 47.8% R

West Virginia, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 26.7% D v 68.6% R

Wisconsin, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 49.5% D v 48.8% R

That's a majority for the Democrats with three Senators from states Donald Trump won by margins of 8% to 41.9%. Six senators from states where Joe Biden got less then 50% of the vote and won by less then 1% of the vote. And, four senators from states where Joe Biden received between 50% of the vote and 50.6% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/117th_United_States_Congress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election

If you compare this to the Republican Senate majority in this 119th Congress:

The Republicans have a 53 to 47 majority. That majority has one Republican Senator from a state that Kamala Harris won (Susan Collins of ME). There is one Senator from a state Donald Trump won with less then 50% of the vote (Ron Johnson of WI). There are three Senators from states Donald Trump won with between 50% and 50.9% of the vote (NC and David McCormick of PN).

So, while theoretically the Democrats have the same amount of power in the majority, the Democratic majorities have consistently been much more fragile and have always relied upon Senators that represented states that Democrats lose at the Presidential level in a landslide."

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

chazzed said:

---

Right, the both sides are equally terrible argument. For those who don't want to sit it out, though, and want a nuanced view of the current landscape, read on...


"The Democrats generally must rely on a coalition with a larger ideological spectrum to pass legislation.

The 117th Congress elected in 2020 and sitting from 2021 to 2023 is the last Congress where the Democrats had a majority in the House and Senate while holding the Presidency. The Democratic majority in the Senate during the 117th Congress was actually a 50/50 split with VP Harris casting the tie-breaking vote for the majority.

The Democrats, to achieve a 50/50 split had:

Senators from the following states:

Arizona, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 49.3% D v 49.0% R

Montana, one senator : 2020 Presidential result 40.6% D v 56.9% R

Nevada, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 50.1% D v. 47.7% R

Georgia, two senators : 2020 Presidential result 49.5% D v. 49.2% R

Ohio, one senator : 2020 Presidental result 45.2% D v. 53.3% R

Pennsylvania, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 49.9% D v 48.7% R

Michigan, two senators: 2020 Presidential result 50.6% D v 47.8% R

West Virginia, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 26.7% D v 68.6% R

Wisconsin, one senator: 2020 Presidential result 49.5% D v 48.8% R

That's a majority for the Democrats with three Senators from states Donald Trump won by margins of 8% to 41.9%. Six senators from states where Joe Biden got less then 50% of the vote and won by less then 1% of the vote. And, four senators from states where Joe Biden received between 50% of the vote and 50.6% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/117th_United_States_Congress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election

If you compare this to the Republican Senate majority in this 119th Congress:

The Republicans have a 53 to 47 majority. That majority has one Republican Senator from a state that Kamala Harris won (Susan Collins of ME). There is one Senator from a state Donald Trump won with less then 50% of the vote (Ron Johnson of WI). There are three Senators from states Donald Trump won with between 50% and 50.9% of the vote (NC and David McCormick of PN).

So, while theoretically the Democrats have the same amount of power in the majority, the Democratic majorities have consistently been much more fragile and have always relied upon Senators that represented states that Democrats lose at the Presidential level in a landslide."

---

Your argument is that voting against the 2016 tax cuts was wrong politically for Dems in "fragile" states.

Yet Joe Biden ran on changing it - raising corporate and personal taxes if elected. So maybe the voters in these "fragile" states wanted it changed.

But it never came to a vote, did it? Obviously because the party didn't want it coming to a vote. And here's a thought- maybe voters didn't like that in 2024, when they lost more ground in the Senate and lost all these states to Trump.

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Call me a dreamer, but I'd prefer to raise restaurant prices, give the employees wages they can live on and scrap the whole tipping system. But as Bruce Hornsby says, "That's just the way it is. Some things will never change."

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Furd has no idea about Democratic or Harris proposals. All his framing comes from Trump ads or Fox segments.

And to many they feel that is enough to live on those people just make bad decisions

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling . . .

Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Are you still waiting for Trumpcare?

Big C said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Hey, the policies were there:

+ Trump is an existential threat to democracy (most Americans can't define "democracy", no less "existential")
+ Free gender-affirming care for prisoners (for all the people that can see themselves one day benefitting from that)
+ Trump is a fascist (Caleb was shooting spit wads when his history teacher defined "fascist")
+ "Bipoc" votes as a block, so a "humane" border policy will win tens of millions of votes!

Not sure what you want. Dems are the idea party!

---

Bipoc is one the worst terms ever it so ambiguous. It just watered down the primary issues for my group to the point of no tangible change. It's basically racist lite not wearing a badge and gun but nevertheless sporting policy that supports and condones them

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Call me a dreamer, but I'd prefer to raise restaurant prices, give the employees wages they can live on and scrap the whole tipping system. But as Bruce Hornsby says, "That's just the way it is. Some things will never change."

---

Well that is a real practical platform. Sounds perfect for blue.

DiabloWags said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling . . .

Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Are you still waiting for Trumpcare?

---

It will come right after the practice of tipping ends. I didn't vote for Trump and don't like him, but trying to wait for Democrats to get their act together is insanity. Just look at New York City.

wifeisafurd said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling . . .

Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Are you still waiting for Trumpcare?

---

It will come right after the practice of tipping ends. I didn't vote for Trump and don't like him, but trying to wait for Democrats to get their act together is insanity. Just look at New York City.

---

I agree.

Big C said:

---

going4roses said:

---

Big C said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Hey, the policies were there:

+ Trump is an existential threat to democracy (most Americans can't define "democracy", no less "existential")
+ Free gender-affirming care for prisoners (for all the people that can see themselves one day benefitting from that)
+ Trump is a fascist (Caleb was shooting spit wads when his history teacher defined "fascist")
+ "Bipoc" votes as a block, so a "humane" border policy will win tens of millions of votes!

Not sure what you want. Dems are the idea party!

---

Bipoc is one the worst terms ever it so ambiguous. It just watered down the primary issues for my group to the point of no tangible change. It's basically racist lite not wearing a badge and gun but nevertheless sporting policy that supports and condones them

---

Agree. It's up there with "Latinx" and "LGBTQIS+". Conjured up s*** that makes a lot of folks just roll their eyes.

Bipoc, or even just "people of color" is an attempt to pretend like all non-white people have the same issues. Now, can they all manage to find some common ground against the oppression of the "white man"? Okay, maybe, to an extent, but it's still lame. And white liberals underestimate how many people across the board get turned off by this kind of s***.

---

You guys are all hooked on Fox News framing. These are not things that people of importance in the Democratic Party spend meaningful time on.

dajo9 said:

---

Big C said:

---

going4roses said:

---

Big C said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Hey, the policies were there:

+ Trump is an existential threat to democracy (most Americans can't define "democracy", no less "existential")
+ Free gender-affirming care for prisoners (for all the people that can see themselves one day benefitting from that)
+ Trump is a fascist (Caleb was shooting spit wads when his history teacher defined "fascist")
+ "Bipoc" votes as a block, so a "humane" border policy will win tens of millions of votes!

Not sure what you want. Dems are the idea party!

---

Bipoc is one the worst terms ever it so ambiguous. It just watered down the primary issues for my group to the point of no tangible change. It's basically racist lite not wearing a badge and gun but nevertheless sporting policy that supports and condones them

---

Agree. It's up there with "Latinx" and "LGBTQIS+". Conjured up s*** that makes a lot of folks just roll their eyes.

Bipoc, or even just "people of color" is an attempt to pretend like all non-white people have the same issues. Now, can they all manage to find some common ground against the oppression of the "white man"? Okay, maybe, to an extent, but it's still lame. And white liberals underestimate how many people across the board get turned off by this kind of s***.

---

You guys are all hooked on Fox News framing. These are not things that people of importance in the Democratic Party spend meaningful time on.

---

Gawd, let's hope not. The thing is, use of Latinx, Bipoc and LGBTQIS+ isn't going to keep me from voting Democratic, but it probably has more of a negative effect on some guy living in a swing state.

Which reminds me to ask: What is it that people of importance in the Democratic Party spending meaningful time on? Fundraising? Okay, I guess funds are necessary. But it's obviously not ideas and messaging (or, if it is, then they're messing up pretty badly).

Big C said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Big C said:

---

going4roses said:

---

Big C said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

chazzed said:

---

If voting blue feels like "voting stupid," what the hell does voting red feel like?

---

Like watching expert pandering in action. I just got through listing to the moron responses from the Dems. The worst bill ever passed, people will die, the world is coming to an end, etc.. The hyperbole never stops (a lesson the OP could learn). While Democrats reliably melt down over everything Trump does or says, they've failed to present any credible alternatives on the pressing issues the BBB is tackling including border security. AND TRUMP IS PUTTING MONEY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S HANDS. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that kind of messaging will not only offend the tens of millions of voters who chose Trump over the lackluster Harris (like I said, G4R has a point you guys don't seem to get), but also those noticing they have more to spend are gonna call BS as well. Democrats are losing voters, and maybe they should actually come up with some policies on a few issues to counter Trump. And not immigration, electronic cars or Medicaid. I know supposedly Trump has working class people in his camp, and the lefty journalists all love saying people think Medicaid is good. But you know everyone thinks essentially every social program is really great. But the working class people like not taxing tips even better. Try getting on the popular side of issues that have broader appeal.

---

Hey, the policies were there:

+ Trump is an existential threat to democracy (most Americans can't define "democracy", no less "existential")
+ Free gender-affirming care for prisoners (for all the people that can see themselves one day benefitting from that)
+ Trump is a fascist (Caleb was shooting spit wads when his history teacher defined "fascist")
+ "Bipoc" votes as a block, so a "humane" border policy will win tens of millions of votes!

Not sure what you want. Dems are the idea party!

---

Bipoc is one the worst terms ever it so ambiguous. It just watered down the primary issues for my group to the point of no tangible change. It's basically racist lite not wearing a badge and gun but nevertheless sporting policy that supports and condones them

---

Agree. It's up there with "Latinx" and "LGBTQIS+". Conjured up s*** that makes a lot of folks just roll their eyes.

Bipoc, or even just "people of color" is an attempt to pretend like all non-white people have the same issues. Now, can they all manage to find some common ground against the oppression of the "white man"? Okay, maybe, to an extent, but it's still lame. And white liberals underestimate how many people across the board get turned off by this kind of s***.

---

You guys are all hooked on Fox News framing. These are not things that people of importance in the Democratic Party spend meaningful time on.

---

Gawd, let's hope not. The thing is, use of Latinx, Bipoc and LGBTQIS+ isn't going to keep me from voting Democratic, but it probably has more of a negative effect on some guy living in a swing state.

Which reminds me to ask: What is it that people of importance in the Democratic Party spending meaningful time on? Fundraising? Okay, I guess funds are necessary. But it's obviously not ideas and messaging (or, if it is, then they're messing up pretty badly).

---

Every election involving Trump has involved the media being obsessed with whatever Trump says or does EVERY day. The Democrat gets no oxygen from mainstream media. Hillary had a ton of good policies that were completely ignored but Trump got more free media than anything ever seen before. In 2024 the wealthy complex of right wing podcasters were powerful. Guys like Rogan who dodged Harris when she tried to go on his show and guys like Tim Pool who got money from Russia. And then there is Fox News, etc.

So Democrats operate from a huge infrastructure disadvantage. The whole infrastructure guarantees voters will hear more negative about a Democrat than anything positive they are trying to put out. You see it every day on this board with even Democratic friendly posters repeating right wing framing and not thinking for themselves.

Democrats also take their "traditional" voters for granted.
They've been downright lazy in this regard.

Case in Point: Look what happened to the Blue Wall of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
It crumbled.

That's not an infrastructure disadvantage.
It's sheer stupidity.

DiabloWags said:

---

Democrats also take their "traditional" voters for granted.
They've been downright lazy in this regard.

Case in Point: Look what happened to the Blue Wall of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
It crumbled.

That's not an infrastructure disadvantage.
It's sheer stupidity.

---

Seems to me that traditional Democratic voters took their rights for granted. Now they have fewer of them.

DiabloWags said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Democrats also take their "traditional" voters for granted.
They've been downright lazy in this regard.

Case in Point: Look what happened to the Blue Wall of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
It crumbled.

That's not an infrastructure disadvantage.
It's sheer stupidity.

---

Seems to me that traditional Democratic voters took their rights for granted. Now they have fewer of them.

---

I blame Jill Biden and her son Hunter.
Joe should have never been allowed to run again.

---

I blame people that voted for Trump

DiabloWags said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Democrats also take their "traditional" voters for granted.
They've been downright lazy in this regard.

Case in Point: Look what happened to the Blue Wall of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
It crumbled.

That's not an infrastructure disadvantage.
It's sheer stupidity.

---

Seems to me that traditional Democratic voters took their rights for granted. Now they have fewer of them.

---

I blame Jill Biden and her son Hunter.
Joe should have never been allowed to run again.

---

I blame people that voted for Trump

---

Thats what losers do.

They blame the opponent or their supporters.
Never mind that Biden was not a viable candidate.
Jill "knew", but she didnt give a sh**.

---

Lol. There will always be one group of people responsible for the shame of the Trump Presidency. His voters.