Iran. Oh, the irony...

25,768 Views | 759 Replies | Last: 52 min ago by concordtom
BearlySane88
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Cal88 said:

BearlySane88 said:

I didn't say it didn't happen both ways but you can't deny that there are shills on both sides

Rating scale effectiveness:0%


There are far more shills on the side where there is a whole lot more money.

You will also be severely punished, algo throttled, censored and demonetized if you criticize Israel on most platforms, and boosted if you shill for Israel.



I am not going to rate this one because I am really starting to wonder if you're that detached from this reality.


Im happy to not be living in your "reality." Blindly hating a group of people is not my thing

Thank god you dropped the stupid rating bit, it was really hurting my feelings
SBGold
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Final answer is that being cuckolded into running a war for Israel sucks a z z

Can you get back to how hot MTG has become recently?

UNITY OVER DIVISION
BearlySane88
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SBGold said:

Final answer is that being cuckolded into running a war for Israel sucks a z z

Can you get back to how hot MTG has become recently?

UNITY OVER DIVISION


Your type is definitely not my type
SBGold
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I find my type in parks in San Leandro:

BearlySane88
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SBGold said:

I find my type in parks in San Leandro:




Your type is "8 inch big pipe"?
concordtom
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wifeisafurd said:

DiabloWags said:


.

And that's why his support from INDEPENDENTS has collapsed.


There is something to that, but come election time you still have to offer alternatives. Which is why I keep *****ing about Dems and the media. We just had another election where Trump won, and people had experience from the prior years what Trump was about. The only thing that has changed is this aggressive military tone to now be the world policeman.

BTW, we just launched an attack on Ecuador.


Trump is so bad that, no, I don't think Dems needed to offer anything different. Intelligent people (which apparently we don't have) should have been able to figure out who he was.

Obviously, I'm wrong, because he's back in office - but it SHOULD have been obvious.


Thought #2
I'm glad to see all the antiwar talk in this thread.

Thought #3
Hitler ….

Quote:


Hitler moved into a series of territories in a clear, escalating sequence before the full outbreak of World War II. The earliest moves were political or "peaceful" annexations, followed by outright occupations and invasions.

---

Early territorial moves (preWWII)

These are the territories Hitler moved into before the invasion of Poland in September 1939, which is widely considered the start of WWII.

1. Saarland (1935)

Reintegrated into Germany after a League of Nationssupervised plebiscite.


2. Rhineland (1936)

Remilitarized in violation of the Treaty of Versailles.


3. Austria (March 1938 Anschluss)

Hitler's first major annexation; Austria was absorbed fully into the Reich.
Britannica

4. Sudetenland (October 1938)

German-speaking border region of Czechoslovakia ceded to Germany after the Munich Agreement.


5. Rest of Czechoslovakia (March 1939)

Germany occupied Bohemia and Moravia and dismantled the Czech state.

---

Transition to open war

6. Poland (September 1939)

Germany invaded Poland, triggering WWII.

---

Why this sequence matters

Hitler's strategy moved from lowrisk political absorption (Saarland, Rhineland) to bolder annexations (Austria, Sudetenland) and finally to outright conquest (Czechoslovakia, Poland). Each step tested how far Britain and France would tolerate expansion, shaping the path to global war.


Thought #4
Meanwhile, can we compare to Trump?
When will the world respond upon US??

Quote:

Consolidated Master List (All Countries, All Actions)

Countries Trump has attacked militarily

(First + Second Term)

Syria
Iraq
Afghanistan
Somalia
Yemen
Libya
Pakistan
Iran
Venezuela
Nigeria
Ecuador


Countries Trump has threatened militarily

Cuba
Mexico
Colombia
Denmark (via Greenland threat)
Iran (before actual attacks)


Countries Trump has made territorial claims or "free land" rhetoric" toward

Greenland (Denmark)
Canada (rhetoric spillover from Greenland push)


---

V. How the Pattern Evolves Over Time

First Term:

High-volume counterterrorism strikes across seven countries.

Second Term:

Shift from counterterrorism to state-targeting warfare (Iran) and regional coercion (Cuba, Mexico, Denmark).

2026:

Most aggressive period, with simultaneous operations across the Middle East, Africa, and South America.
concordtom
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We interrupt this war in order to provide you with a moment of distracting nostalgia.

sycasey
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BearlySane88
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sycasey said:




"Don't. Just don't."
wifeisafurd
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BearlySane88 said:



The irony of Congressional action regarding the War Powers Act centers on lawmakers boldly attempting to reassert authority they have effectively delegated away for decades, resulting in largely symbolic gestures that fail to curb executive branch military actions, as the courts basically said tough luck Congress. Oh wait, Congress did what again?

Is that the hot air I hear rushing by? Great posts on the topic - way to repeat those talking points.
.
wifeisafurd
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I'm having a tough time keeping track of what which '88 said what. Now I know how it feels to be Joe Biden.
Big C
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SBGold said:

Final answer is that being cuckolded into running a war for Israel sucks a z z

Can you get back to how hot MTG has become recently?

UNITY OVER DIVISION


I used to hate MTG, of course. And yet, there was something about her that sort of caught my fancy. Couldn't put a finger on it...

Now? Wow!
SBGold
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I've got competition
SBGold
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Dementia cannot be cured, but I will suggest that you seek help from your medical services provider for ways to manage your condition.

UNITY OVER DIVISION

VOTE GAVIN
concordtom
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SBGold said:

Dementia cannot be cured, but I will suggest that you seek help from your medical services provider for ways to manage your condition.

UNITY OVER DIVISION

VOTE GAVIN


Hopefully he has children who love him if it comes to that. Same for everyone.
concordtom
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wifeisafurd said:

BearlySane88 said:



The irony of Congressional action regarding the War Powers Act centers on lawmakers boldly attempting to reassert authority they have effectively delegated away for decades, resulting in largely symbolic gestures that fail to curb executive branch military actions, as the courts basically said tough luck Congress. Oh wait, Congress did what again?



I think the conclusion is to say that the constitution has become a somewhat dead document.

The framers envisioned many things going fairly differently.

It's not just the dance between executive and legislative, but also judicial. Who was it that said "we don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have."


I put the above paragraphs by you and I into the hopper, asking for examples of how we aren't doing what was envisioned:

Quote:


You're touching on a theme that a lot of constitutional scholars and historians discuss: the gap between the constitutional design the framers imagined and the way institutions actually evolved. The Constitution created a system of checks and balances assuming each branch would aggressively guard its own powers. In practice, political incentives, party loyalty, and institutional habits often push things in the opposite direction.

Below are several clear examples where the framers' expectations vs. modern reality diverge.



1. War Powers: Congress Was Supposed to Control War

War Powers Resolution
James Madison

Framers' vision

The Constitution gave Congress the power to declare war, while the president was commander-in-chief.

Madison wrote that the executive is "the branch most interested in war, and most prone to it," so the Constitution deliberately vested the war decision in the legislature.

Modern reality

Since WWII:
Presidents routinely initiate military actions without declarations of war.
Congress rarely votes formally to authorize or stop them.
The War Powers Resolution (1973) tried to reclaim authority, requiring notification and limiting deployments to 60 days without authorization.
Presidents from both parties largely treat it as advisory, not binding.

Courts usually avoid ruling on these disputes, calling them "political questions."

Result:
Congress often complains about executive war-making but continues funding the operations, which effectively ratifies them.



2. Delegation of Lawmaking to Agencies

United States Congress
Supreme Court of the United States

Framers' vision

Congress was supposed to write the laws.

Modern reality

Congress often passes broad statutes and lets federal agencies:
Write detailed regulations
Interpret statutes
Enforce them

This created the administrative state.

The courts historically allowed this under the "non-delegation doctrine", which in practice has rarely been enforced.

So Congress can pass vague laws and shift politically difficult decisions to agencies.



3. The Senate Was Not Meant to Be Directly Elected

Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Framers' vision

Originally:
Senators were chosen by state legislatures.
This was meant to give state governments institutional power inside the federal system.

Modern reality

The 17th Amendment (1913) created direct election of senators.

Effect:
Senators now respond primarily to voters and national party politics, not state governments.
State legislatures lost a key structural check on federal power.



4. Political Parties Were Not Anticipated

George Washington

Framers' vision

The Constitution assumed independent branches competing for power.

Washington warned about "factions" (political parties) in his farewell address.

Modern reality

Party loyalty often overrides institutional loyalty.

Example:
Congress may hesitate to challenge a president of the same party, weakening the intended checks.

The system was designed assuming institutional rivalry, but parties produce cross-branch alliances.



5. Congress Was Supposed to Be the Dominant Branch

Alexander Hamilton

Early American thinkers believed the legislature would dominate.

Hamilton even called the presidency the "weakest branch."

Modern reality

The presidency has accumulated enormous authority:
military command
executive orders
emergency powers
control of the federal bureaucracy

Political scientists often call this the "imperial presidency."



6. Courts Were Supposed to Be the "Least Dangerous Branch"

The Federalist No. 78

Hamilton wrote that the judiciary had "neither force nor will, but merely judgment."

Modern reality

Through judicial review, courts now routinely:
invalidate federal laws
shape national policy
resolve major social issues

While judicial review became established early (via Marbury v. Madison), the scope of policy impact has grown enormously.



7. The Electoral College Was Supposed to Be Independent

Electoral College

Framers' vision

Electors would:
deliberate independently
choose the most qualified candidate

Modern reality

Electors are now pledged party representatives, and the system functions as a state-based vote tally, not a deliberative body.



8. The Constitution Expected Frequent Amendments

Article Five of the United States Constitution

The framers assumed the document would evolve through regular amendments.

Modern reality

Amendments are extremely rare (only 27 total, 10 at the start).

Instead, change happens through:
court interpretation
executive action
legislation stretching constitutional language

So the Constitution evolves informally, not through formal amendment.



The Quote You Mentioned

The sentiment "we don't need new laws, just enforce the ones we have" is widely attributed to various politicians and judges over time. Variants have been said by figures like:
Calvin Coolidge
Antonin Scalia

It reflects the idea that institutional failure is often about enforcement rather than absence of rules.



The core irony you pointed out is widely recognized:

The constitutional system assumes branches jealously guard their powers.

But in practice:
Congress often delegates power away
Presidents expand authority
Courts often avoid disputes between branches

So the system works less like the framers imagined and more like a negotiated political ecosystem.



If you'd like, I can also show you something fascinating: several founders actually predicted this drift toward executive power and party dominance almost exactly. Some of their warnings read eerily modern.
dajo9
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Classic Trump the great negotiatior (hahaha) who backstabbed the Kurds repeatedly and now wants their help. What a loser.
Censorship has always been a tool of the fascist
Anarchistbear
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BearlySane88
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SBGold said:

Dementia cannot be cured, but I will suggest that you seek help from your medical services provider for ways to manage your condition.

UNITY OVER DIVISION

VOTE GAVIN


Pretty sure you cried and flagged other people posting things very similar to this post of yours. Hypocrisy at its finest
BearlySane88
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concordtom
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Since the hopper is a more astute conversationalist than much BS here, particularly in the middle of the night, I kept going …


Quote:


Several founders explicitly warned that the constitutional system might drift toward exactly the conditions we see today: concentration of executive power, domination by political parties, public passivity, and Congress gradually surrendering authority. When you read their words, it can feel uncannily contemporary.



1. Madison: The Legislature Might Fail to Defend Its Own Power

James Madison
The Federalist No. 51

Madison's whole theory of checks and balances depended on institutional ambition.

He wrote:

"Ambition must be made to counteract ambition."

His assumption was that each branch would fight to protect its authority.

But Madison also warned that the system would fail if legislators stopped defending their own powers.

He feared:
legislators becoming complacent
deference to executive leadership
party loyalty overriding institutional loyalty

Modern scholars often say this is exactly what happenedmembers of Congress often align with a president of their party rather than defending congressional authority.

Madison also warned about war powers:

"The executive is the branch most interested in war, and most prone to it."

Which is why Congress was given the authority to declare war.



2. Washington: Political Parties Would Break the System

George Washington
Washington's Farewell Address

Washington's farewell address contains one of the most prophetic warnings in American political history.

He warned that political parties (factions) would eventually:
divide the country
place party above country
weaken institutions

He wrote:

"The spirit of party… serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration."

He feared parties would lead citizens to support leaders even when they abused power, simply because they belonged to the same faction.



3. Hamilton: The Presidency Could Grow Dangerous

Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist No. 70

Hamilton argued for a vigorous executive, but he also warned that the presidency could become dangerous if not restrained by Congress.

He believed the executive must be strong but limited by legislative oversight.

He assumed Congress would actively check the president.

What he did not anticipate fully was:
permanent standing military deployments
global military commitments
emergency powers used frequently
executive agencies exercising quasi-legislative authority

Those developments greatly magnified presidential influence.



4. Jefferson: The Constitution Could Be Interpreted Away

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson worried about the Constitution being stretched through interpretation rather than formally amended.

He wrote:

"Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

He feared courts and politicians might reinterpret the document until its limits disappeared.

This is very close to modern debates about:
expansive readings of federal power
judicial interpretation reshaping constitutional meaning



5. Adams: Power Always Expands

John Adams

Adams had an almost pessimistic view of political power.

He warned that every branch would try to expand itself.

He wrote:

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak."

His point was that no officeholder voluntarily limits themselves unless institutions force them to.



6. Franklin: The Republic Only Works If Citizens Defend It

Benjamin Franklin

Franklin's famous remark after the Constitutional Convention:

"A republic, if you can keep it."

The statement captures the founders' belief that the system depends heavily on civic behavior, not just written rules.

If citizens:
tolerate abuses
reward partisan loyalty
ignore institutional erosion

then the structure alone cannot preserve the system.



One More Deep Irony

The founders feared executive tyranny, but they feared legislative weakness almost as much.

Their system assumes:
Congress aggressively defends its power
Presidents push the limits
Courts referee conflicts

But if Congress chooses not to fight, the system tilts heavily toward the executive.

Which brings us back to the point you made earlier about the War Powers situation:

Congress often complains about presidential military actions but still:
funds them
avoids decisive votes
lets courts dismiss the dispute as political

In effect, Congress has the constitutional tools but often declines to use them.



A thought-provoking question many constitutional scholars ask today:

The Constitution may not be "dead," but is it increasingly operating through informal political norms rather than the formal structure the founders designed?

If you're interested, there's also a fascinating comparison historians make between the U.S. system today and the Roman Republic shortly before power concentrated in the executive. The parallels are surprisingly uncomfortable.






I like the philosophical quote by John Adams (recently my favorite president):


"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak."


Indeed. The wealthy, the tech or business successful, the religious leaders, the politically powerful often intermingle, and often develop an arrogance about their opinions. Hubris.

Washington's farewell warning of Parties may be the most damning thing here, though.
DiabloWags
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Why is our military running "dangerously" low on advanced missile interceptors like the THAAD and Patriot?




China watching as US missile stocks drain over Iran - Asia Times

Could the US run low on weapons for its assault on Iran? | Israel-Iran conflict News | Al Jazeera
Cal88
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War with Iran is costing American taxpayers $1 billion dollars a day.

Most American tax payers will never receive a Social Security check because it will be bankrupt by 2033.

Most Americans can't afford health insurance policies because they are so expensive.

Most American families cannot financially survive on a single income, and both parents have to work like slaves in order to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads.

But the Trump administration has decided that these American taxpayers have to spend $1 billion a day to murder people and their children in a foreign country that none of us have ever met and know nothing about.

Incredible MAGA priorities.
Anarchistbear
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DiabloWags
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BAPCO Refinery.
267,000 bpd.

There was also a drone attack on Aramco's Ras Tanura refinery, the company's largest.
There was no reported damage this morning.

SBGold
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When?

You are just wading in and trolling now. I was not seeking to engage in a discussion with you.

UNITY OVER DIVISION

VOTE GAVIN
wifeisafurd
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You hit on a big issue in legal circles and jurisprudence classes when you said the Constitution was dead, which is does the Constitution evolve with the times? There are two schools of thought, both represented on the current SCOTUS.

There is originalism which fixes meaning to the constitution's text's public understanding at ratification, promoting stability. Gorsuch is a great example. Whether a layman agrees with his approach may depend on the issue. For example, the folks that generally left liked his concurrence when he voted against tariffs, even if the other justices in the majority didn't.

Living constitutionalism argues the document evolves with societal values and practicality, allowing for adaptation. Kagan probably is the best example of that. When it comes to the military action the courts have argued that the executive branch can act with greater speed, secrecy, and unity, which is necessary for responding to modern threats and warfare which require much more immediate action than threats in the 1700s. The other theme from living constitutional types is that Presidents have consistently engaged in military operations without formal congressional declarations (e.g., Korea, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Serbia), creating a precedent that courts should not overturn.

I also might point out that this was Congressional action to not limit the President that just occurred, so it hard to argue that Congressional will is being thwarted.
wifeisafurd
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Cal88 said:



War with Iran is costing American taxpayers $1 billion dollars a day.

Most American tax payers will never receive a Social Security check because it will be bankrupt by 2033.

Most Americans can't afford health insurance policies because they are so expensive.

Most American families cannot financially survive on a single income, and both parents have to work like slaves in order to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads.

But the Trump administration has decided that these American taxpayers have to spend $1 billion a day to murder people and their children in a foreign country that none of us have ever met and know nothing about.

Incredible MAGA priorities.

MTG says a lot of weird stuff, but these comments show she never took an economics class. Most the weapons being used already were purchased, and the troops get paid regardless (although some get more for "danger pay"), and to bottom line it a good portion of the $1 billion a day is what economists call sunk costs. And most of what is being used won't be reordered as newer, more advanced weaponry is on order, regardless of whether there was a war or not. This is not to say that war doesn't add to the cost, but that the marginal cost of war always is overstated. She has some points on the other stuff, and you can guys can debate all that hopefully in another thread.
wifeisafurd
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SBGold said:

Dementia cannot be cured, but I will suggest that you seek help from your medical services provider for ways to manage your condition.

UNITY OVER DIVISION

VOTE GAVIN

I'm assuming you were being humorous back at me, and I didn't go crying about time outs.
DiabloWags
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The Atlantic Reported that this figure of $1.0 Billion a day came from a US Congress official.

US congress official: Cost of war on Iran estimated to be a billion dollars daily | Middle East Eye


DiabloWags
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How much Trump's military adventure in Iran has cost the US so far | World News - Business Standard
chazzed
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The Trump administration was just lying to its base about wars (duh). This administration is really all about imperialism.

SBGold
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Well if you did not get any TOs for baseless reasons (though I think I noted a post of yours that deserved one), I would not have expected you to whine about them.

I can handle my own whining, thx
SBGold
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It seems pretty reasonable to believe that the cost is 1 billion a day, I would expect it is probably more actually
Cal88
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wifeisafurd said:

Cal88 said:



War with Iran is costing American taxpayers $1 billion dollars a day.

Most American tax payers will never receive a Social Security check because it will be bankrupt by 2033.

Most Americans can't afford health insurance policies because they are so expensive.

Most American families cannot financially survive on a single income, and both parents have to work like slaves in order to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads.

But the Trump administration has decided that these American taxpayers have to spend $1 billion a day to murder people and their children in a foreign country that none of us have ever met and know nothing about.

Incredible MAGA priorities.

MTG says a lot of weird stuff, but these comments show she never took an economics class. Most the weapons being used already were purchased, and the troops get paid regardless (although some get more for "danger pay"), and to bottom line it a good portion of the $1 billion a day is what economists call sunk costs. And most of what is being used won't be reordered as newer, more advanced weaponry is on order, regardless of whether there was a war or not. This is not to say that war doesn't add to the cost, but that the marginal cost of war always is overstated. She has some points on the other stuff, and you can guys can debate all that hopefully in another thread.


Just in terms of US radar installations alone in the GCC, the damage tab already is around $3B-$4B.

Implying that the variable costs of a shooting war like this are negligible is pretty misguided.
 
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