Safe Space Warning - Political Economy Thread

37,914 Views | 342 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by calbear93
tequila4kapp
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761379 said:

After this election, there is now absolutely nothing more tiresome than Republicans and conservatives complaining about liberals not being "civil" enough with their language when addressing conservatives.

Guess what folks: THE COUNTRY JUST ELECTED TRUMP. Liberals didn't do it. Conservatives did. When Trump is your party's standard-bearer, you've lost all claim to civility. This is a man who literally spent his entire campaign insulting people. Not just his Democratic opponent, everyone. If you want to complain about civility, don't start with liberals. Speak out against those within your own ranks who seem to either like Trump's behavior or have accepted and normalized it.

You know, at some point everyone needs to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their own behavior. Simply saying the other guy did it first is the stuff of 3 year olds. Treat people with respect and dignity and you are likely to receive the same in kind. Do the opposite and you end up with stuff like Israel and Palestine in the ME, constantly justifying boorish (or worse) behavior because the other guy supposedly did it first.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MinotStateBeav;842761515 said:

As a democrat (old school, not this new version), I managed to see what could of attracted working class voters to 'the donald'. Even with all the idiotic things he says, he promised to repeal NAFTA and bring back jobs to the rust belt. EVEN if he doesn't do it, he's saying what people want to hear, which is more than the DNC did. I mean...guys...Unions are wanting to work with Trump. The Democratic party USE to be the party of unions in the 80s. Overhaul the DNC..they failed to listen to their constituents. Start adopting a platform of workers rights and trade protections. This country has been riding globalization so hard and so fast that we never thought about the long term impact it was going to have. Or ...the DNC can continue ignoring the problems and wonder why they keep losing elections..while yelling "popular vote, electoral college sucks"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/10/uaw-united-auto-workers-donald-trump-nafta-north-american-free-trade-agreement/93600032/


Bernie Sanders might not have been the right candidate (he's pretty old, and some of his specific proposals are a little "out there"), but the general message he was peddling is probably the right one for Democrats. If there is one good result here it is convincing the DNC to clean house of its useless leadership. Howard Dean had a good plan that got the Democrats a huge win in 2008 (in all branches of government), then for some unknown reason they let him go and installed cronies who just treated it as a fundraising arm.
jyamada
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MinotStateBeav;842761515 said:

As a democrat (old school, not this new version), I managed to see what could of attracted working class voters to 'the donald'. Even with all the idiotic things he says, he promised to repeal NAFTA and bring back jobs to the rust belt. EVEN if he doesn't do it, he's saying what people want to hear, which is more than the DNC did. I mean...guys...Unions are wanting to work with Trump. The Democratic party USE to be the party of unions in the 80s. Overhaul the DNC..they failed to listen to their constituents. Start adopting a platform of workers rights and trade protections. This country has been riding globalization so hard and so fast that we never thought about the long term impact it was going to have. Or ...the DNC can continue ignoring the problems and wonder why they keep losing elections..while yelling "popular vote, electoral college sucks"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/10/uaw-united-auto-workers-donald-trump-nafta-north-american-free-trade-agreement/93600032/


Why would you want to listen to someone who lies about 95% of the time?
burritos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GUNNERMATE;842761494 said:

All you liberals can pick up your participation trophies as you exit.


Can someone describe in a logical fashion how Trump is going to get the rust belt people their jobs back?
NYCGOBEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GUNNERMATE;842761509 said:

At least with weed, everyone on both sides would mellow out.


Or get more paranoid.
NYCGOBEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
burritos;842761543 said:

Can someone describe in a logical fashion how Trump is going to get the rust belt people their jobs back?

Kick out Mexicans and let white people take their low paying jobs.
Cal89
How long do you want to ignore this user?
burritos;842761543 said:

Can someone describe in a logical fashion how Trump is going to get the rust belt people their jobs back?


There's always The Rock in four years!



burritos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
NYCGOBEARS;842761551 said:

Kick out Mexicans and let white people take their low paying jobs.


You know when you go to Canada, white young adults do do many of those jobs. Them and asian immigrants.
Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?
burritos;842761543 said:

Can someone describe in a logical fashion how Trump is going to get the rust belt people their jobs back?


Well, maybe not "their" jobs, but go back and look at post #64 in this thread!
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MinotStateBeav;842761515 said:

As a democrat (old school, not this new version), I managed to see what could of attracted working class voters to 'the donald'. Even with all the idiotic things he says, he promised to repeal NAFTA and bring back jobs to the rust belt. EVEN if he doesn't do it, he's saying what people want to hear, which is more than the DNC did. I mean...guys...Unions are wanting to work with Trump. The Democratic party USE to be the party of unions in the 80s. Overhaul the DNC..they failed to listen to their constituents. Start adopting a platform of workers rights and trade protections. This country has been riding globalization so hard and so fast that we never thought about the long term impact it was going to have. Or ...the DNC can continue ignoring the problems and wonder why they keep losing elections..while yelling "popular vote, electoral college sucks"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/10/uaw-united-auto-workers-donald-trump-nafta-north-american-free-trade-agreement/93600032/


I think I vaguely remember the Democrats of the 1980s. Weren't they the party that got absolutely smashed in 3 consecutive presidential elections? Electoral college votes of 489-40, 525-13, and 426-111. Yes, I recall. The rust belt destroyed its jobs base way back in 1980 when they voted for Ronald Reagan. After working class and union abandonment had destroyed the old Democratic Party you speak so fondly of Bill Clinton moved in the direction the American people clearly wanted (more international trade among other things) and since then the Democratic Party has won 6 out of 7 popular votes and 4 out of 7 electoral college votes. And when Bill Clinton tried to implement national health care who abandoned him immediately? The unions. Because they preferred to have their own fancy union healthcare.

I don't know about unions in Michigan but unions on the coasts are pretty much dead except for the public sector. And even I'm against them because it is ridiculous to have a public sector with pay / benefits vastly better then the private sector who has to pay taxes to support them. No, the Democratic Party didn't abandon the working man. The working man abandoned the Democratic Party.

That said, we have to get working whites to vote Democratic again. The Democratic Party has to do more to protect workers against foreign trade and support the safety net. We have to do more infrastructure and job growing legislation (which Democrats have supported all along). But the workers of Michigan voted to destroy their own jobs base long ago. It's never going to be what it once was. They can throw all the Trumper-tantrums they want. The jobs aren't coming back.
Oakbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
hmm, my feeling is that if Trump gets what he wants in place that we will have inflation, not deflation, we will see, but inflation will bring higher interest rates in the long run .. we have seen that some believe this as higher yielding stocks have taken a hit during the last week (at least the ones in my portfolio) .. we live in interesting times
MinotStateBeav
How long do you want to ignore this user?
NYCGOBEARS;842761551 said:

Kick out Mexicans and let white people take their low paying jobs.


Guess what, people with that view, didn't swing this election..but keep believing that.
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9;842761214 said:

From above, #1 misses the point - the bubble and crash were caused by conservative deregulation policy (Clinton's triangulation stuff included) accompanied by income inequality pushing the wealthy to find more assets because they needed good investments
#2 is naive
#3 I agree with - the Democratic Party belongs to the Millenials now. They are big, active, and angry.
#4 The learn from Obama part is funny but
#5 is comedy gold


Thank you for making my point - your blind partisanship shows through.

Re #1, Anyone who can look at the 2008 financial meltdown and conclude that it was caused by "conservative deregulation policy" is delusional. Both parties supported repeal of Glass-Steagall. The Dems (far more than the republicans) supported the Community Reinvestment Act and other policies which loosened lending/fannie/freddie requirements (i.e., deregulation) and favored sub-prime lending, though of course Wall Street (and many republicans) were happy to make money off of those policies. You are losing credibility (what's left of it) by trying to pin that on one party. Both parties favored these policies in large part because the lobbyist/money was flowing freely.

Re #4, I think its pretty clear Obama/Pelosi/Reid overreached. Obamacare was passed without any Republican support and, as a result, has faced unrelenting opposition ever since, so much so that simple amendments have been impossible. Reid used a variety of parliamentary tricks that were questionable - guess what the republicans will do now? They lost Dem control of congress 2 years later and repeal of Obamacare has been a central issue ever since (including Trumps election). Obama pushed the limits of executive power by acting unilaterally on immigration and environmental matters that had been expressly rejected by Congress (DACA and cap and trade). How is that working out? All of that will be gone in the next few months (if not sooner). That is the lesson that I hope Trump learns - that acting unilaterally and without some democrat buy in is bad and has blowback. Not sure what you find "funny" about all this - unless you find the dismantling of Obama's legacy funny (and placed in that light, it is certainly "funny" to me).
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
okaydo;842761479 said:

It was mostly about turnout and lack of enthusiasm for Hillary.

Trump and Romney have nearly identical shares of the electorate

47.2% for Romney

47.28% for Trump (which may go down when all the California ballots are counted.)

vs.

51.1% for Obama

47.81% for Hillary


It wasn't just turnout - the lower turnout in urban centers like Detroit and Miami certainly hurt HRC, particularly in Michigan where it was really close. The bigger issue was that many "Obama voters" in the key swing states voted for Trump.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/195120-the-counties-that-flipped-from-obama-to-donald-trump-say-everything-about-why-democrats-lost
MinotStateBeav
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9;842761558 said:

I think I vaguely remember the Democrats of the 1980s. Weren't they the party that got absolutely smashed in 3 consecutive presidential elections? Electoral college votes of 489-40, 525-13, and 426-111. Yes, I recall. The rust belt destroyed its jobs base way back in 1980 when they voted for Ronald Reagan. After working class and union abandonment had destroyed the old Democratic Party you speak so fondly of Bill Clinton moved in the direction the American people clearly wanted (more international trade among other things) and since then the Democratic Party has won 6 out of 7 popular votes and 4 out of 7 electoral college votes. And when Bill Clinton tried to implement national health care who abandoned him immediately? The unions. Because they preferred to have their own fancy union healthcare.

I don't know about unions in Michigan but unions on the coasts are pretty much dead except for the public sector. And even I'm against them because it is ridiculous to have a public sector with pay / benefits vastly better then the private sector who has to pay taxes to support them. No, the Democratic Party didn't abandon the working man. The working man abandoned the Democratic Party.

That said, we have to get working whites to vote Democratic again. The Democratic Party has to do more to protect workers against foreign trade and support the safety net. We have to do more infrastructure and job growing legislation (which Democrats have supported all along). But the workers of Michigan voted to destroy their own jobs base long ago. It's never going to be what it once was. They can throw all the Trumper-tantrums they want. The jobs aren't coming back.


This article is pretty good, written today check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/democrats-economy.html

Many democrats seem to get it..Schumer, Warren et al.

The last line in the article ..
"In an interview, Ms. Turner made clear that she has an unambiguous, and familiar, focus: “It’s the economy, stupid,” she said."
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761579 said:

Re #4, I think its pretty clear Obama/Pelosi/Reid overreached. Obamacare was passed without any Republican support and, as a result, has faced unrelenting opposition ever since, so much so that simple amendments have been impossible. Reid used a variety of parliamentary tricks that were questionable - guess what the republicans will do now? They lost Dem control of congress 2 years later and repeal of Obamacare has been a central issue ever since (including Trumps election). Obama pushed the limits of executive power by acting unilaterally on immigration and environmental matters that had been expressly rejected by Congress (DACA and cap and trade). How is that working out? All of that will be gone in the next few months (if not sooner). That is the lesson that I hope Trump learns - that acting unilaterally and without some democrat buy in is bad and has blowback. Not sure what you find "funny" about all this - unless you find the dismantling of Obama's legacy funny (and placed in that light, it is certainly "funny" to me).


Do you think Obamacare will actually be gone? How do the Republicans get around the bad politics of taking insurance away from 20 million people? Do they have a backup plan that will actually restore coverage for those people? What Paul Ryan has on the table seems a bit inadequate.

See, that's the thing: Republicans got to just reject anything Obama wanted for eight years and promise to repeal everything he did, but now they actually have to govern. I think they'll find that taking away some of this stuff is not going to be so easy.
MinotStateBeav
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761587 said:

Do you think Obamacare will actually be gone? How do the Republicans get around the bad politics of taking insurance away from 20 million people? Do they have a backup plan that will actually restore coverage for those people? What Paul Ryan has on the table seems a bit inadequate.

See, that's the thing: Republicans got to just reject anything Obama wanted for eight years and promise to repeal everything he did, but now they actually have to govern. I think they'll find that taking away some of this stuff is not going to be so easy.


I agree with a lot of this...Republicans are going to take a pretty large hit if they do this.
GB54
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761522 said:

Bernie Sanders might not have been the right candidate (he's pretty old, and some of his specific proposals are a little "out there"), but the general message he was peddling is probably the right one for Democrats. If there is one good result here it is convincing the DNC to clean house of its useless leadership. Howard Dean had a good plan that got the Democrats a huge win in 2008 (in all branches of government), then for some unknown reason they let him go and installed cronies who just treated it as a fundraising arm.


I think it's obvious who the wrong candidate was. She lost to Donald F$Ckin Trump!

She lost states- Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin that had voted Democratic since the 1980's. And think of this- she didn't campaign in Wisconsin and hit Michigan late despite the fact that she'd lost both states to Sanders for the same reasons Trump beat her.

The feminist candidate lost white women and working class men and women

She didn't turn out young people.

She was a perfect foil for Trump who could merrily bash her as the money laundering flyover oligarch she is. In addition, her resume in a throw them out, anti- Washington election actually hurt rather than helped. In a change election the best she could come up with is "I'm with Her"?

She's always been a terrible and uninspiring campaigner. Twice the crown was put on her head and twice pulled by the electorate.

So, when people say Bernie would have lost because he was as a socialist, I would say that the Democrats ran the worst possible candidate against Trump, one that let him draw to an inside straight in Democratic states. I think Bernie would have done better in these states because he was addressing the same problems but with specific issues. Would Trump have savaged him? Sure, but they had a bigger patsy in Hillary. Could Bernie hold the rest of the Obama coalition? I think so- maybe with erosion in the upper middle class but with a big increase in young people; plus I think the election would have turned more on issues, not personalities and when you look at issues like income inequality, trade, corruption and education, I don't think he is that far out of where the mainstream is these days. There are two competing evils now in our political discourse -,corporations and government- -and there is actually some overlap here between right and left. Trump- amazingly and brilliantly- managed to capture resentment against both but Hillary couldn't lay a glove on him
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MinotStateBeav;842761584 said:

This article is pretty good, written today check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/democrats-economy.html

Many democrats seem to get it..Schumer, Warren et al.

The last line in the article ..
"In an interview, Ms. Turner made clear that she has an unambiguous, and familiar, focus: “It’s the economy, stupid,” she said."


In general the comments from party members seem to have a decent handle on the right way forward. The same old Clinton-era centrism isn't going to work. Going all-in on a populist economic and social-justice platform is the way to capture the rising Millennial cohort.
jyamada
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761579 said:

Thank you for making my point - your blind partisanship shows through.

Re #1, Anyone who can look at the 2008 financial meltdown and conclude that it was caused by "conservative deregulation policy" is delusional. Both parties supported repeal of Glass-Steagall. The Dems (far more than the republicans) supported the Community Reinvestment Act and other policies which loosened lending/fannie/freddie requirements (i.e., deregulation) and favored sub-prime lending, though of course Wall Street (and many republicans) were happy to make money off of those policies. You are losing credibility (what's left of it) by trying to pin that on one party. Both parties favored these policies in large part because the lobbyist/money was flowing freely.



The CRA had nothing to do with the 2008 financial meltdown.....it was strictly, IMHO, the lack of regulation of the derivatives market.

See below:

No, Lending To Poor People Did Not Cause The Financial Crisis

By David Sanchez

Despite the multiple times the right wing's arguments have been debunked, they are once again repeating the false narrative that the financial crisis was caused by government policy and lending to low-income borrowers. The latest to weigh in is former-Senator Phil Gramm. On the Wall Street Journal op-ed page, he trots out the idea that government regulators used the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to force banks to make loans to undeserving poor people and that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac purchased doomed subprime mortgage backed securities to meet the affordable housing goals. This, he says, was the main cause of the crisis. But this idea has been thoroughly discredited.

The Community Reinvestment Act requires banks and savings associations to meet the credit needs of all segments of the community in their service areas, consistent with standards of safety and soundness. This legislation counteracted historically widespread "redlining" practices, where banks would deny credit to low-income or minority neighborhoods. The Fannie and Freddie affordable housing goals require them to ensure that a certain percentage of the loans they buy serve low-income homebuyers and neighborhoods. Together, the CRA and the affordable housing goals play a crucial role in meeting the credit needs of low-income communities, although much can be done to strengthen them.

The argument that CRA and the affordable housing goals caused the crisis have been debunked time and time (and time and time and time and time and time) again. The CRA has been in place since 1977, while subprime lending only skyrocketed in the 2000s. Even if one concentrates on the changes in enforcement of the act in 1995 (as Gramm does), the Act does nothing to explain the massive uptick in subprime lending concentrated from 2004 to 2006. What's more, most subprime lenders weren't banks and therefore weren't even subject to CRA. That's why only 6 percent of the high-cost mortgages at the time (a proxy for subprime) could even potentially qualify for CRA credit.

Similarly, for most of the housing boom, Fannie and Freddie were on the sidelines due to their fairly strict underwriting requirements. By the time Fannie and Freddie lowered their standards in 2006 to buy riskier products, they were too late to the game to cause the subprime frenzy. Moreover, while they also bought private subprime mortgage backed securities for their investment portfolio  an inarguably bad idea  those purchases did little to meet the housing goals. For the most part, Fannie and Freddie-guaranteed loans have performed, and are still performing, remarkably better than the toxic products pioneered by subprime lenders.

The real causes of the financial crisis were predatory mortgage products, out-of-control securitization and derivatives markets, and the failure of government regulators to crack down on the massive risk being taken by our nation's financial institutions. As chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Gramm himself championed two pillars of the deregulatory era: the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Depression-era wall between commercial banks (those that take deposits and give loans) and investment banks (those that facilitate riskier investment activities), and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which blocked regulation of so-called "over the counter" derivatives. Most notably, the Commodity Futures Modernization act allowed financial instruments such as credit default swaps to expand without oversight, spreading the risk contained in subprime MBS throughout the entire financial system.

The conservative campaign to repeat lies about the financial crisis over and over again does nothing to make their argument any truer (although it does allow those within the right-wing echo chamber to justify their extreme positions on the federal government's role in our financial and housing markets). Rather than continuing to engage in a fruitless debate, we need to move on to a constructive conversation about the future of housing finance in America and how to create a housing system that serves families and strengthens communities.
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761579 said:

Thank you for making my point - your blind partisanship shows through.

Re #1, Anyone who can look at the 2008 financial meltdown and conclude that it was caused by "conservative deregulation policy" is delusional. Both parties supported repeal of Glass-Steagall. The Dems (far more than the republicans) supported the Community Reinvestment Act and other policies which loosened lending/fannie/freddie requirements (i.e., deregulation) and favored sub-prime lending, though of course Wall Street (and many republicans) were happy to make money off of those policies. You are losing credibility (what's left of it) by trying to pin that on one party. Both parties favored these policies in large part because the lobbyist/money was flowing freely.


Both parties supported the conservative ideology of deregulating of the financial sector. The Community Reinvestment Act was a non-entity in the whole bubble/crash. It's a lie. I'm not going to debate it with you again - here is Barry Ritholtz on the matter. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/what-caused-the-financial-crisis-the-big-lie-goes-viral/2011/10/31/gIQAXlSOqM_story.html?tid=pm_business_pop

BearGoggles;842761579 said:

Re #4, I think its pretty clear Obama/Pelosi/Reid overreached. Obamacare was passed without any Republican support and, as a result, has faced unrelenting opposition ever since, so much so that simple amendments have been impossible. Reid used a variety of parliamentary tricks that were questionable - guess what the republicans will do now? They lost Dem control of congress 2 years later and repeal of Obamacare has been a central issue ever since (including Trumps election). Obama pushed the limits of executive power by acting unilaterally on immigration and environmental matters that had been expressly rejected by Congress (DACA and cap and trade). How is that working out? All of that will be gone in the next few months (if not sooner). That is the lesson that I hope Trump learns - that acting unilaterally and without some democrat buy in is bad and has blowback. Not sure what you find "funny" about all this - unless you find the dismantling of Obama's legacy funny (and placed in that light, it is certainly "funny" to me).


Obama didn't overreach. The Republican plan was to obstruct and try to defeat Obama from the moment he stepped in office. The response Obama got wasn't from overreach - it was from strategy. Kudos, to the Republicans, it worked. Obama bent over backwards to find common ground with them. Far more than I would have, of course.
GB54
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761579 said:

Thank you for making my point - your blind partisanship shows through.

Re

Re #4, I think its pretty clear Obama/Pelosi/Reid overreached. Obamacare was passed without any Republican support and, as a result, has faced unrelenting opposition ever since, so much so that simple amendments have been impossible. Reid used a variety of parliamentary tricks that were questionable - guess what the republicans will do now? They lost Dem control of congress 2 years later and repeal of Obamacare has been a central issue ever since (including Trumps election). Obama pushed the limits of executive power by acting unilaterally on immigration and environmental matters that had been expressly rejected by Congress (DACA and cap and trade). How is that working out? All of that will be gone in the next few months (if not sooner). That is the lesson that I hope Trump learns - that acting unilaterally and without some democrat buy in is bad and has blowback. Not sure what you find "funny" about all this - unless you find the dismantling of Obama's legacy funny (and placed in that light, it is certainly "funny" to me).


My take is that there wasn't enough "overreach". First of all not jailing the bankers or holding them culpable was a disgrace and a political disaster one that led to two insurrections- one on the left and one on the right. Both hurt the Democratic Party.

On health care he had no republican votes from the beginning and never would have them, but he did have a majority. Given that why bother to produce a weak law that was written by insurance companies. Pursue a real health care reform with a public option or can the whole idea. This was stupid both politically and strategically.

He did a terrible job as symbolic and titular leader of his party. He did nothing to building grass roots for his party and nothing for young people totally wasting all that enthusiasm and idealism. Republicans in eight years have amassed a ground game that will wipe out his legacy all over the country, while Democrats have twiddled their thumbs
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MinotStateBeav;842761584 said:

This article is pretty good, written today check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/democrats-economy.html

Many democrats seem to get it..Schumer, Warren et al.

The last line in the article ..
"In an interview, Ms. Turner made clear that she has an unambiguous, and familiar, focus: "It's the economy, stupid," she said."


I'm all for more progressive economics than we had with Obama - so was Hillary Clinton. So was the Bernie Sanders-like Russ Feingold who lost in Wisconsin.

As for me, in 2020 I'm supporting the Democratic candidate that gets the Millenials excited. They are the way forward.
burritos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761587 said:

Do you think Obamacare will actually be gone? How do the Republicans get around the bad politics of taking insurance away from 20 million people? Do they have a backup plan that will actually restore coverage for those people? What Paul Ryan has on the table seems a bit inadequate.

See, that's the thing: Republicans got to just reject anything Obama wanted for eight years and promise to repeal everything he did, but now they actually have to govern. I think they'll find that taking away some of this stuff is not going to be so easy.

These 20 million people, did they all vote? I'm guessing they didn't all vote for Hillary. Had this block of 20 million people voted for HRC, should would be potus. Their in action undoubtedly permitted Trump's election. They deserve to have their insurance taken away, indefinitely.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
burritos;842761678 said:

These 20 million people, did they all vote? I'm guessing they didn't all vote for Hillary. Had this block of 20 million people voted for HRC, should would be potus. Their in action undoubtedly permitted Trump's election. They deserve to have their insurance taken away, indefinitely.


Problem is, it won't just be Trump voters who are hurt by this. I can think of at least three people I know (not Trump voters) who were not able to get insurance before Obamacare and now can. I don't want them to lose coverage because of this.
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9;842761606 said:

Both parties supported the conservative ideology of deregulating of the financial sector. The Community Reinvestment Act was a non-entity in the whole bubble/crash. It's a lie. I'm not going to debate it with you again - here is Barry Ritholtz on the matter. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/what-caused-the-financial-crisis-the-big-lie-goes-viral/2011/10/31/gIQAXlSOqM_story.html?tid=pm_business_pop



Obama didn't overreach. The Republican plan was to obstruct and try to defeat Obama from the moment he stepped in office. The response Obama got wasn't from overreach - it was from strategy. Kudos, to the Republicans, it worked. Obama bent over backwards to find common ground with them. Far more than I would have, of course.


The article you linked to does not support the proposition you claim. The article blames the banks/wall street for taking too much risk - which is accurate. But the article also points out that the banks were only able to take those risks because of congressional and administrative policies that allowed it - policies that were favored by both parties. The question is what risks were the banks taking? The answer (partly) - subprime debt in its repackaged form. And who facilitated/allowed/promoted subprime debt? Again, Congress (the CRA) and the political parties. There were multiple actors at fault - but "deregulation" is/was not a "conservative" policy. Both parties own and promoted that, albeit perhaps for slightly different reason. Again, pure partisanship on your part to claim it was somehow a conservative/republican policy.

I would submit to you that it is overreaching to pass a [healthcare] law that is: (i) 100% opposed by the other political party; (ii) unpopular among the general public, both at the time and thereafter; (iii) passed as a reconciliation "spending bill" to avoid long-standing filibuster rules, thereby further angering the minority party; and (iv) based on dubious claims like "you can keep your doctor" or "you can keep your plan without changes" - claims that were soon proven false. Historically, major laws were adopted with at least some bipartisan support - social security, civil rights act, welfare reform - and Obamacare was a stark departure from that. The error was compounded when the administration's implementing regulations interposes further unpopular requirements and Obama issued numerous executive orders that were dubious. All of this resulted in the Dems/Obama getting hammered at the ballot box - both federally and at the state level - at all subsequent elections. It also poisoned any chance of Obama getting other initiatives passed, in part because the Republicans were pissed and in part because MANY republican candidates were elected with a mandate to repeal Obamacare. Not to mention the constant criticism of Obamacare in the media. And yes - the republicans were obstructionist. But Obama overreached - if his policies/actions were popular, it would have been the republicans (not the dems) who were hammered in subsequent elections. Those are the facts.

And in the end, all of Obama's overreach was for naught - his policies will be history in a few months.

My original point - about Trump learning from this - is well placed. Trump and the republicans are now in a position where they can really cram things through congress the way Obamacare was and Trump is in a position to issue BROAD executive orders to circumvent congress and/or existing law (perhaps the dems should have thought about that when defending Obama's executive orders). My point is that hopefully Trump and republicans will be wise enough not to do that, though I'm not holding my breath. And if they do cram things through, at a minimum the need to pass laws that are immediately popular among the electorate (e.g., tax reform). If not, the republicans will get hammered and Trump's policy agenda will be sidetracked, similar to what happened to Obama.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Big C_Cal;842761482 said:

Not all NYC billionaires are Wall Street billionaires. It was amazing jiu-jitsu on Trump's part to get the non-urban working class to think he's their savior, I will admit. However, I am trying to think what he's going to do to help, in the long-term, some guy in Michigan or Pennsylvania and I'm coming up blank. Slapping some tarifs on imports and reopening a few coal mines isn't going to last even one election cycle. Nor will building that wall.


The United States has not had an industrial policy that champions its domestic manufacturing sector, in this sense it is an outlier among industrialized nations. You look at Japan, the most powerful and influential political organ there has been MITI, the ministry of industry. It doesn't have an equivalent in the US (in terms of influence that is).

Countries like Japan, Korea or Germany have stronger domestic industrial sectors (relative to their size), so it's not really a matter of labor cost. By and large, the US does not leverage its huge domestic market to secure its domestic industry. Countries like China do this very aggressively. You can't be a major auto player in China if you don't set up shop there. NAFTA pretty much gave the house away, it is the reason why the largest auto plant in the western hemishpere is the VW plant in Puebla, Mexico, which was set to grow even bigger. Where they set up shop to service the US market is a matter of US policy, If Trump scraps the TPP (done) and NAFTA (soon to be neutered), you could easily see manufacturing sectors like the automobile rebound sharply in the US. Lifting carbon taxes will also result in job increases.



burritos;842761556 said:

You know when you go to Canada, white young adults do do many of those jobs. Them and asian immigrants.


You can't have higher minimum wages and open borders, it's one or the other. Canada has higher wages at the low end and instead of a wall, it has a 2000 mile wide southern buffer between its cities and the Rio Grande.


dajo9;842761558 said:

...That said, we have to get working whites to vote Democratic again. The Democratic Party has to do more to protect workers against foreign trade and support the safety net. We have to do more infrastructure and job growing legislation (which Democrats have supported all along). But the workers of Michigan voted to destroy their own jobs base long ago. It's never going to be what it once was. They can throw all the Trumper-tantrums they want. The jobs aren't coming back.


"Those jobs aren't coming back" is a American neoliberal cultural meme, because the prevailing culture has been defined by laisser-faire think tanks and academia, backed by the financial sector and foundations. If those jobs exist in Germany or Korea, there is no reason they can't exist in the US as well, other than domestic policies that favor multinationals bottom lines over domestic labor pools, ignoring the benefits they bring to the broader economy.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GB54;842761608 said:

My take is that there wasn't enough "overreach". First of all not jailing the bankers or holding them culpable was a disgrace and a political disaster one that led to two insurrections- one on the left and one on the right. Both hurt the Democratic Party.

On health care he had no republican votes from the beginning and never would have them, but he did have a majority. Given that why bother to produce a weak law that was written by insurance companies. Pursue a real health care reform with a public option or can the whole idea. This was stupid both politically and strategically.

He did a terrible job as symbolic and titular leader of his party. He did nothing to building grass roots for his party and nothing for young people totally wasting all that enthusiasm and idealism. Republicans in eight years have amassed a ground game that will wipe out his legacy all over the country, while Democrats have twiddled their thumbs


On the one hand, I agree that Obama should have pushed harder for punishing banks and pursuing a more aggressive public heath care plan. He foolishly assumed Republicans would be interested in compromise. They were not.

That said, just because he had a majority in Congress doesn't mean he could just get whatever he wanted. There were still a number of conservative Democrats in the Senate who weren't keen on some of these ideas. What he got could have been about what he'd wind up getting anyway. Still, he could have at least pressed for more, used his personal popularity to win public support.

I agree 100% about not doing enough to build the party's grassroots, which was very strange given that Obama had used those grassroots to get himself the nomination. The DNC seemingly just stopped trying to win over state governments.
BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761693 said:

Problem is, it won't just be Trump voters who are hurt by this. I can think of at least three people I know (not Trump voters) who were not able to get insurance before Obamacare and now can. I don't want them to lose coverage because of this.


FYI - the Republican mantra is to repeal and REPLACE. And the republican replacement plans have always contemplated continuing to insure all people with pre-existing coverage. Even back when Obamacare was passed, the republicans were on board for that and they continue to support it. In his interview with 60 minutes last night, Trump reaffirmed this point.

https://abetterway.speaker.gov/?page=health-care

https://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-FAQ.pdf

Bottom line - the republicans cannot take away this entitlement without offering a reasonable replacement. The plan proposes subsidies for the poor and people with high risk conditions. The plan also proposes more options in the type of coverage people purchased.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761704 said:

FYI - the Republican mantra is to repeal and REPLACE. And the republican replacement plans have always contemplated continuing to insure all people with pre-existing coverage. Even back when Obamacare was passed, the republicans were on board for that and they continue to support it. In his interview with 60 minutes last night, Trump reaffirmed this point.

https://abetterway.speaker.gov/?page=health-care

https://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-FAQ.pdf

Bottom line - the republicans cannot take away this entitlement without offering a reasonable replacement. The plan proposes subsidies for the poor and people with high risk conditions. The plan also proposes more options in the type of coverage people purchased.


We shall see. I think Ryan's plan is going to need some more tinkering to avoid the "death spiral" of the health care market that you get when you just impose regulations (no pre-existing conditions) without also including the less-popular stuff like the individual mandate (to make sure healthy people actually buy in).
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
burritos;842761362 said:

I'm not rooting for de-industrialization, it's just an observation. If the doomsday predictions of climate change do come to fruition, it just mother nature's way of keeping in check the smart and spoiled cohort of her children. I don't want to others to suffer, but I realized I have minimal impact on this course of history.


The AGW political advocacy movement has been around since the 1980s, there is a wide body of predictions that have been put forth as far back as the 80s, nearly all of them have turned out to be wildly alarmist vs actual observed weather:





BearGoggles
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761706 said:

We shall see. I think Ryan's plan is going to need some more tinkering to avoid the "death spiral" of the health care market that you get when you just impose regulations (no pre-existing conditions) without also including the less-popular stuff like the individual mandate (to make sure healthy people actually buy in).


Yep - no more party of no. Time to put up or shut up. My guess is that: (i) they will try to save costs by allowing plans to exclude certain coverage that is now "required" under Obamacare; (ii) make older people pay more so that the subsidy from young healthy people is less (which is why young people are not buying currently); and (iii) allow people to open HSAs and use high deductible plans.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearGoggles;842761731 said:

Yep - no more party of no. Time to put up or shut up.


On this, we can completely agree. Your move, GOP. Let's see if you actually have plans.
burritos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88;842761702 said:


You can't have higher minimum wages and open borders, it's one or the other. Canada has higher wages at the low end and instead of a wall, it has a 2000 mile wide southern buffer between its cities and the Rio Grande.

You are presuming that only Latinos will do the manual labor. If life is so crappy in the U.S. and Canada pays a livable wage for all jobs including manual jobs, you would think at least a few Americans would cross to Canada to earn that wage plus healthcare.
Big C
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey;842761587 said:

Do you think Obamacare will actually be gone? How do the Republicans get around the bad politics of taking insurance away from 20 million people? Do they have a backup plan that will actually restore coverage for those people? What Paul Ryan has on the table seems a bit inadequate.

See, that's the thing: Republicans got to just reject anything Obama wanted for eight years and promise to repeal everything he did, but now they actually have to govern. I think they'll find that taking away some of this stuff is not going to be so easy.


Republicans will "get rid" of Obamacare, then come back with something that is craftily tweaked so that it can be marketed as something completely different. Of course, they will not call it "Romneycare", but it will sound a lot better to someone who never wanted a program named after some Muslim born in Kenya.
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.