sycasey;842762229 said:

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I was speaking of the potential for overreach and abuse in trying to round up these criminals. Does this seem like reasonable policy to you?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-registry-immigrants-policy-kris-bobach-reinstate-wall-a7420296.html

A registry for members of a religious minority? I know where I've heard that before.

---

I think you know the answer to your query. No, I don't think that is a good idea at all. Your question suggests you have a picture of Republicans having racist attitudes toward Mexicans, blacks and Muslim's. I think few Republicans would link directly to Trump's exhortations about minorities. When you take his words less literally and more conceptually, one can see some hope for some reasonable solutions. But most on the left would prefer the former. I would rarely want to stand and defend almost any politician, as I rarely agree with any in toto. You must understand many went to the voting booth, held their collective noses and registered a vote against Hillary, not so much for Trump. And that was what was misinterpreted.

LudwigsFountain;842762224 said:

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I agree there was't any honest discussion, by either candidate. I didn't pay much attention to Trump, because I don't think even he knows (or cares) where he stands. As for Clinton, from what I read her position was that she would add a few more price controls to Medicare, expand it to those in their 50's and protect it from being destroyed by the Republicans. Given my believe that changes to Medicare are inevitable, i didn't see that as very honest.

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Just because you don't like what somebody says about Medicare doesn't make it dishonest. You should retract your accusation that Hillary Clinton wasn't honest and instead say you thought it fell short. The desire to find false equivalence where it doesn't exist is ruining our national discourse.

LudwigsFountain;842762224 said:

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Not trying to start any argument here, but I don't gather what your position on Medicare is. That's probably because I generally stay out of political threads and only read the posts within them related to health care, a particular interest of mine. So I haven't read all the posts here. If your position is that we don't need to make much, if any, adjustment to Medicare I think you owe it to yourself to read the Trustees' report I mentioned.

As long as we have politicians refusing to address the issues raised in the report and characterizing any proposal to adjust Medicare as an effort to 'destroy' it, we won't have an honest discussion.

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My position on Medicare is that it will no longer be necessary once we go to a universal healthcare system. We currently have the most costly and ineffective health policy in the advanced free world. If the powers-that-be insist on keeping the current inefficient system then they'll have to pay up the additional taxes for it should we reach a point where there is a shortfall to cover benefits.

Any proposal that destroys the nature of Medicare should be honestly and accurately described as a proposal to destroy Medicare, such as what has been proposed by Paul Ryan.

OdontoBear66;842762262 said:

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I think you know the answer to your query. No, I don't think that is a good idea at all. Your question suggests you have a picture of Republicans having racist attitudes toward Mexicans, blacks and Muslim's. I think few Republicans would link directly to Trump's exhortations about minorities. When you take his words less literally and more conceptually, one can see some hope for some reasonable solutions. But most on the left would prefer the former. I would rarely want to stand and defend almost any politician, as I rarely agree with any in toto. You must understand many went to the voting booth, held their collective noses and registered a vote against Hillary, not so much for Trump. And that was what was misinterpreted.

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Yes, I am taking Trump literally. Wasn't this part of the reason for supporting him? That he's a straight shooter who means what he says? I mean, I don't think I'm creating a "picture" of Republicans out of whole cloth here. I'm looking at direct quotes from Trump and his associates that look pretty racist. They now lead the party.

Sure, that's not the only reason people may have voted for him. If it was not, then all I ask is for conservatives to speak out against what they find objectionable. So far, Republican officials have either been silent or supportive. Are they not getting enough pressure from their voters? I hope it starts soon, because some of this stuff looks pretty frightening.

grandmastapoop;842762179 said:

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Because it's done so for 200+ years. And you realize the "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy, correct?

Here's another illogical slippery slope argument: If the US Govt can deport you for being here illegally, what's to stop them from deporting other types of people they don't want here. It's a slippery slope...

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Let me get this straight. You don't think we should deport ILLEGAL people in our country? If so, why not?

sycasey;842762280 said:

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Yes, I am taking Trump literally. Wasn't this part of the reason for supporting him? That he's a straight shooter who means what he says? I mean, I don't think I'm creating a "picture" of Republicans out of whole cloth here. I'm looking at direct quotes from Trump and his associates that look pretty racist. They now lead the party.

Sure, that's not the only reason people may have voted for him. If it was not, then all I ask is for conservatives to speak out against what they find objectionable. So far, Republican officials have either been silent or supportive. Are they not getting enough pressure from their voters? I hope it starts soon, because some of this stuff looks pretty frightening.

---

The bigotry and hate is not going to get any better. It will get scarier in this country, especially if you're a minority. Trump is what he is and he's not going to change.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/20-horrific-acts-violence-donald-183522626.html

sycasey;842762280 said:

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Yes, I am taking Trump literally. Wasn't this part of the reason for supporting him? That he's a straight shooter who means what he says? I mean, I don't think I'm creating a "picture" of Republicans out of whole cloth here. I'm looking at direct quotes from Trump and his associates that look pretty racist. They now lead the party.

Sure, that's not the only reason people may have voted for him. If it was not, then all I ask is for conservatives to speak out against what they find objectionable. So far, Republican officials have either been silent or supportive. Are they not getting enough pressure from their voters? I hope it starts soon, because some of this stuff looks pretty frightening.

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Before we get too tangential, I was asked what I hoped for as change. I chose to speak first on one subject to avoid scatter---that of immigration. So when you ask about speaking out against him, I suspect what you will find from Trump when push comes to shove is very close to what I suggested. That is my conceptual image and hope. If he goes about business as he was talking in the Republican primaries, then he loses me. When he realizes the reality and depth of the problem I imagine he will temper, but not temper the way liberals would like to see. This time around there must be an absolute assurance that going forward we can control our immigration in the future or the hell with citizenship. That would be a failed replay of the 80s, and the next generation would be beyond broke with the next step backwards. Look alone at what the social spending on illegal immigration is taking away from our ability to spend on education and infrastructure, two needs that come quickly to mind?

GUNNERMATE;842762320 said:

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Let me get this straight. You don't think we should deport ILLEGAL people in our country? If so, why not?

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Do you even read, bro?

GUNNERMATE;842762320 said:

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Let me get this straight. You don't think we should deport ILLEGAL people in our country? If so, why not?

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We should give illegals a chance to succeed in this country. After all, our next first lady was once an illegal and look where she is now!

okaydo;842762401 said:

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We should give illegals a chance to succeed in this country. After all, our next first lady was once an illegal and look where she is now!

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Really hot illegals get a break.

grandmastapoop;842762394 said:

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Do you even read, bro?

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Do you understand what illegal means. Get them out. If they want to come back legally then fine.

GUNNERMATE;842762497 said:

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Do you understand what illegal means. Get them out. If they want to come back legally then fine.

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Ok, you don't read. Good to know.

Charlie Moore for President

grandmastapoop;842762558 said:

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Ok, you don't read. Good to know.

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Hillary thanks you for your vote.

GUNNERMATE;842762571 said:

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Hillary thanks you for your vote.

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Thank you for conceding the point.

GUNNERMATE;842762497 said:

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Do you understand what illegal means. Get them out. If they want to come back legally then fine.

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I'm guessing you aren't aware that Obama has deported 2.5 million (and counting) illegal immigrants since taking office, more than any other president. under his administration, ICE has specifically targeted known criminals for deportation orders.

you sure didn't pay attention during the Bush years..nor have you paid attention to all of the demo posts about how Obama cut the Bush deficit .. but then again, selective thought is so common

sycasey;842762280 said:

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Yes, I am taking Trump literally. Wasn't this part of the reason for supporting him? That he's a straight shooter who means what he says? I mean, I don't think I'm creating a "picture" of Republicans out of whole cloth here. I'm looking at direct quotes from Trump and his associates that look pretty racist. They now lead the party.

Sure, that's not the only reason people may have voted for him. If it was not, then all I ask is for conservatives to speak out against what they find objectionable. So far, Republican officials have either been silent or supportive. Are they not getting enough pressure from their voters? I hope it starts soon, because some of this stuff looks pretty frightening.

---

sycasey, I told you what I thought would be good. Usually you, and the BI collective, would be all over a moderate to conservative post I made a day ago. Not so. I don't need to speak out against Trump until Trump does something I totally disagree with. I don't like his language, but unless I am horribly mistaken, I believe I know his thrust. Conceptually, I have hopes he will do a good job and hold the office in high esteem, unlike his attitude in the primaries. I also relish that HRC is toast. I found (love the past tense) a deplorable liar, cheat, and self serving politico. Bernie and Warren at least don't smell of the Swamp....Bankruptcy in 2000 to $115M in 2016 speaks volumes. Follow the money trail.

OdontoBear66;842763144 said:

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sycasey, I told you what I thought would be good. Usually you, and the BI collective, would be all over a moderate to conservative post I made a day ago. Not so. I don't need to speak out against Trump until Trump does something I totally disagree with.

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I didn't have major issues with what you proposed on immigration, so there wasn't much to debate there. I only questioned the means by which it would be implemented, but obviously neither of us are in a position to know such things anyway. My concern is not with the policy but rather a worry that the Trump administration would be wildly overzealous in enforcing it. These concerns are not allayed by the comments that some of his people are making about a "registration list" for Muslims.

Hillary Clinton is done, so I'm not interested in re-litigating her past issues. I've moved on to monitoring Trump and trying to see how he will govern. Admittedly, it's pretty hard to tell in the chaotic early days of selecting people to fill cabinet and other positions, but so far I'm not encouraged by what I see. The appointment of Steve Bannon (Breitbart News guy with ties to white nationalism) as a chief advisor is extremely troubling to me.

Vandalus;842763031 said:

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I'm guessing you aren't aware that Obama has deported 2.5 million (and counting) illegal immigrants since taking office, more than any other president. under his administration, ICE has specifically targeted known criminals for deportation orders.

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So get the rest out. Those that want to come back in legally can do so. What is so hard for some of you to understand the word illegal?

GUNNERMATE;842763174 said:

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So get the rest out. Those that want to come back in legally can do so. What is so hard for some of you to understand the word illegal?

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-costs-of-mass-deportation-1458342018

sycasey;842763159 said:

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I didn't have major issues with what you proposed on immigration, so there wasn't much to debate there. I only questioned the means by which it would be implemented, but obviously neither of us are in a position to know such things anyway. My concern is not with the policy but rather a worry that the Trump administration would be wildly overzealous in enforcing it. These concerns are not allayed by the comments that some of his people are making about a "registration list" for Muslims.

Hillary Clinton is done, so I'm not interested in re-litigating her past issues. I've moved on to monitoring Trump and trying to see how he will govern. Admittedly, it's pretty hard to tell in the chaotic early days of selecting people to fill cabinet and other positions, but so far I'm not encouraged by what I see. The appointment of Steve Bannon (Breitbart News guy with ties to white nationalism) as a chief advisor is extremely troubling to me.

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And believe it or not, Bannon is to me too....I am hoping that we see Trump's business instincts come through with his appointments, coming up with quality people and delegating. But whether we both like it or not, he most likely won't back away from the fact that he has won---thus Bannon...I am just hoping for very little of Bannon types, and I hope to be proved right.

OdontoBear66;842763181 said:

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And believe it or not, Bannon is to me too....I am hoping that we see Trump's business instincts come through with his appointments, coming up with quality people and delegating. But whether we both like it or not, he most likely won't back away from the fact that he has won---thus Bannon...I am just hoping for very little of Bannon types, and I hope to be proved right.

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How do you feel about Jeff Sessions of Alabama as our new Attorney General? In the 1980s when Reagan appointed him as a judge the Senate voted him down because of his racist comments. At some point, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

To think this site (of the school of the Free Speech Movement which was created to fight for civil rights) gave me a one week ban once for calling Trump a racist and yet here we are.

dajo9;842763220 said:

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How do you feel about Jeff Sessions of Alabama as our new Attorney General? In the 1980s when Reagan appointed him as a judge the Senate voted him down because of his racist comments. At some point, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

To think this site (of the school of the Free Speech Movement which was created to fight for civil rights) gave me a one week ban once for calling Trump a racist and yet here we are.

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Look, man, this is no longer the '80s. This is the decade of Trump!!

I trust Trump. Look -- his National Security Advisor pick has already infiltrated Russia.



Dude is pretty smart, too.

OdontoBear66;842763181 said:

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And believe it or not, Bannon is to me too....I am hoping that we see Trump's business instincts come through with his appointments, coming up with quality people and delegating. But whether we both like it or not, he most likely won't back away from the fact that he has won---thus Bannon...I am just hoping for very little of Bannon types, and I hope to be proved right.

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I think including his daughter Ivanka, who will lead the Trump Organization, as part of his meeting with the Japanese prime minister is an example of his business savvy.




Also, Trump was just elected 10 days ago and look what he's done! Bravo, President Trump!!!!

Trump is a bit of a wildcard, we'll get a much better idea of where he stands on many issues by the middle of next year, but do you really want to attack him for having successfully shamed Ford Motors into not outsourcing to Mexico, or for his advocacy of detente with Russia vs a return to the cold war and Vietnam/Korea-style proxy wars in Syria or Yemen?

Cal88;842763238 said:

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Trump is a bit of a wildcard, we'll get a much better idea of where he stands on many issues by the middle of next year, but do you really want to attack him for having successfully shamed Ford Motors into not outsourcing to Mexico,

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It's a lie. That plant was never moving to Mexico.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/us/politics/donald-trump-takes-credit-for-helping-to-save-a-ford-plant-that-wasnt-closing.html

okaydo;842763229 said:

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Look, man, this is no longer the '80s. This is the decade of Trump!!

I trust Trump. Look -- his National Security Advisor pick has already infiltrated Russia.



Dude is pretty smart, too.

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Per General Flynn: "Fear of Muslims is RATIONAL."

Backer of one of the pro-Trump Super PACs floats Japanese Internment as "precedent" for a Muslim registry:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/17/japanese-internment-is-precedent-for-national-muslim-registry-prominent-trump-backer-says/

If you are a Muslim in this country, you should be afraid. And if you are a member of any other religious or racial minority, you should be worried that they are coming after you next.

Cal88;842763238 said:

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Trump is a bit of a wildcard, we'll get a much better idea of where he stands on many issues by the middle of next year, but do you really want to attack him for having successfully shamed Ford Motors into not outsourcing to Mexico, or for his advocacy of detente with Russia vs a return to the cold war and Vietnam/Korea-style proxy wars in Syria or Yemen?

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As noted, the Ford issue is a Trump lie and the Russia issue is closer to surrender than it is to detente

sycasey;842763242 said:

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Backer of one of the pro-Trump Super PACs floats Japanese Internment as "precedent" for a Muslim registry:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/17/japanese-internment-is-precedent-for-national-muslim-registry-prominent-trump-backer-says/

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This was my biggest fear of electing a racist to the white house.

jyamada;842763254 said:

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This was my biggest fear of electing a racist to the white house.

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More fun from one of his proposed chief advisors, Steve Bannon:

There Are Too Many Asian CEOs In Silicon Valley
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-disgusted-asian-ceos-silicon-valley_us_582c5d19e4b0e39c1fa71e48

A lot of us in our 40s, 50s and 60s know better, but post anyway. Which of you have actually been harmed in any way by Trump? Almost none, if not none. This may change, but right now, every post is guesswork and fear. If you want to criticize how he runs his businesses, that's fair, and can be based on verifiable facts. Criticizing what he "WILL DO" as President is assinine. None of us know yet. The election was not Cinderella v Darth Vader. Alumni of other schools get this. Cal football board posters? not so much. You forget that the election of Obama or Clinton, to many Republicans, was going to destroy what was "great" about America. To many, the world is not a better place today. But is it really changed in a major way? No. Guantanamo is open. No wars are really over. No bankers or hedge fund people were prosecuted. We have the Affordable care Act. There is a less stable world around us, such as Iran and Syria, and the idiot in South Korea. But overall, it is not wildly different.

1979bear;842763272 said:

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A lot of us in our 40s, 50s and 60s know better, but post anyway. Which of you have actually been harmed in any way by Trump? Almost none, if not none. This may change, but right now, every post is guesswork and fear. If you want to criticize how he runs his businesses, that's fair, and can be based on verifiable facts. Criticizing what he "WILL DO" as President is assinine. None of us know yet. The election was not Cinderella v Darth Vader. Alumni of other schools get this. Cal football board posters? not so much. You forget that the election of Obama or Clinton, to many Republicans, was going to destroy what was "great" about America. To many, the world is not a better place today. But is it really changed in a major way? No. Guantanamo is open. No wars are really over. No bankers or hedge fund people were prosecuted. We have the Affordable care Act. There is a less stable world around us, such as Iran and Syria, and the idiot in South Korea. But overall, it is not wildly different.

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No one has been harmed by Trump, but he's not actually President yet. I am choosing to take him at his word and believe that he wants to do the things he said while campaigning for office (these statements are in the realm of "verifiable fact," I believe). If he does not do those things, I will be relieved, but I'm not going to wait until the U.S. Government starts rounding up Muslims or starting more wars in the Middle East before I speak out. I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent that from happening. Part of that involves exerting whatever external political pressure I can, to let our government know that as a voter, this is NOT what I want. I also want to convince other people to do the same. It's called grassroots political action.

sycasey;842763287 said:

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No one has been harmed by Trump, but he's not actually President yet. I am choosing to take him at his word and believe that he wants to do the things he said while campaigning for office (these statements are in the realm of "verifiable fact," I believe). If he does not do those things, I will be relieved, but I'm not going to wait until the U.S. Government starts rounding up Muslims or starting more wars in the Middle East before I speak out. I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent that from happening. Part of that involves exerting whatever external political pressure I can, to let our government know that as a voter, this is NOT what I want. I also want to convince other people to do the same. It's called grassroots political action.

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Well, good for you and your passion to get your views out there. If you can point out anyone on this board you believe has more than incrementally changed their views on anything related to the election, based on board postings, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

1979bear;842763291 said:

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Well, good for you and your passion to get your views out there. If you can point out anyone on this board you believe has more than incrementally changed their views on anything related to the election, based on board postings, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

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No one is under any obligation to change their views, I merely hope they do. All I can do is point out what I think is wrong. I also expect that under a Trump presidency, I'm going to see a whole lot that I think is wrong. If I do not, you will hear less from me. If you hear about something you do not like, hopefully you too will speak up and tell your government that you don't like it.

sycasey;842763287 said:

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No one has been harmed by Trump, but he's not actually President yet. I am choosing to take him at his word and believe that he wants to do the things he said while campaigning for office (these statements are in the realm of "verifiable fact," I believe). If he does not do those things, I will be relieved, but I'm not going to wait until the U.S. Government starts rounding up Muslims or starting more wars in the Middle East before I speak out. I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent that from happening. Part of that involves exerting whatever external political pressure I can, to let our government know that as a voter, this is NOT what I want. I also want to convince other people to do the same. It's called grassroots political action.

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Do you have a link where Trump or his spokesperson says he will have the government round up Muslims and start more wars in the Middle East?

oski003;842763304 said:

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Do you have a link where Trump or his spokesperson says he will have the government round up Muslims and start more wars in the Middle East?

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Trump himself talked about starting a Muslim registry during the campaign, and then his people tried to deny it:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/17/trump-camp-denies-muslim-ban-registry

This is not "rounding up Muslims," but neither was requiring Jews to register and wear gold stars in Nazi Germany. Rounding them up was the next step. I will admit that Trump has not discussed starting any new wars. That I'm just extrapolating from what the last Republican administration did.

On another topic, here's some more fun from Steve Bannon, Trump's top advisor:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steve-bannon-trump-tower-interview-trumps-strategist-plots-new-political-movement-948747

Quote:

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“Like [Andrew] Jackson’s populism, we’re going to build an entirely new political movement,” he says. “It’s everything related to jobs. The conservatives are going to go crazy. I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution — conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement.”

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Yes, a return to the days of Andrew Jackson and the "excitement" of the 1930s. That sounds grand. Are we all happy with this guy having the ear of the new leader of the free world?