Trump vs. Marshawn
6,728 Views |
86 Replies |
Last: 6 yr ago by tequila4kapp
Is he into breasts too now?triplebear said:
I was walking through downtown Oakland the other week and came upon the Breastmode store. Marshawn was out front cajoling a kid to do something. As it turns out, he was carting around a bunch of kids on his day off or after practice in the company van. I thought to myself, what NFL superstar would be doing this, not many. I wanted to stop and say something but clearly he was taking care of business. This guy is for real. He talks the talk and walks the walk.
Golden One said:Is he into breasts too now?triplebear said:
I was walking through downtown Oakland the other week and came upon the Breastmode store. Marshawn was out front cajoling a kid to do something. As it turns out, he was carting around a bunch of kids on his day off or after practice in the company van. I thought to myself, what NFL superstar would be doing this, not many. I wanted to stop and say something but clearly he was taking care of business. This guy is for real. He talks the talk and walks the walk.
I imagine so, despite my typo...but why not ask him yourself.
Which ones? I have never seen specific issues articulated at all, just general notions of police violence against minorities - with a subsequent failure / unwillingness to actually discuss the facts of those cases - and frankly that is being kind, as Kaepernick's original statement didn't say a word about the police, but did speak about our so called oppressive government.socaliganbear said:It's not a protest against anthems at-large. It's a protest against a specific issue within the American criminal justice system. Which is not particularly related to the Mexican or other random national anthems.Strykur said:
Obvious problem when one anthem is protested, but the other is not.
I'm stunned that people are stunned, or disappointed.
This is Marshawn behaving like Marshawn. He's his own man. He does things that may or may not offend people, like the media.
I would be disappointed if Marshawn got arrested -- like I was disappointed the first and second time he got arrested. That would be reason for disappointment, not this.
This is Marshawn behaving like Marshawn. He's his own man. He does things that may or may not offend people, like the media.
I would be disappointed if Marshawn got arrested -- like I was disappointed the first and second time he got arrested. That would be reason for disappointment, not this.
okaydo said:
I'm stunned that people are stunned, or disappointed.
This is Marshawn behaving like Marshawn. He's his own man. He does things that may or may not offend people, like the media.
I would be disappointed if Marshawn got arrested -- like I was disappointed the first and second time he got arrested. That would be reason for disappointment, not this.
If a protest doesn't upset or piss off some of the population, it's not working.
Sketchy9 - Injustice by the police is, as you said, rarely punished. Absolutely true - we have jury trials in this country and getting all 12 jurors to punish a guy who does a difficult job is nearly impossible.
There are several solutions - insist that you DA and City Council etc. provide the best training and screening of police applicants and enforce the law on everyone. Lobby your state legislator to abolish unanimous verdicts - it is not against the US Constitution (only the Calif Constitution) - that will make it easier to convict law breakers (police and non-police). With our deeply divided society, how can you expect a verdict against cops with a unanimous verdict?
Don't like those solutions? Let's hear your suggestions.
There are several solutions - insist that you DA and City Council etc. provide the best training and screening of police applicants and enforce the law on everyone. Lobby your state legislator to abolish unanimous verdicts - it is not against the US Constitution (only the Calif Constitution) - that will make it easier to convict law breakers (police and non-police). With our deeply divided society, how can you expect a verdict against cops with a unanimous verdict?
Don't like those solutions? Let's hear your suggestions.
I don't understand the argument that kneeling disrespects veterans. The protest is clearly articulated and it has nothing to do with veterans.
In any case one of the best things about people getting their panties in a bunch over Marshawn is knowing that Marshawn could care less.
In any case one of the best things about people getting their panties in a bunch over Marshawn is knowing that Marshawn could care less.
American Vermin
Anybody that thinks the anthem protest is about veterans or the flag must think a hunger strike is done by people who hate food. Marshawn kaep and all the other athletes that have taken a knee have brought far more attention to a subject in a peaceful way than anybody with a gun has ever hoped to. We are far too sensitive about the vehicle of the protest rather than why it's actually taking place.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think there is a lot of nuance presented by your analogy. For example, what should Tommie Smith and John Carlos have done in 1968 if/when the South African anthem was played? What would 1960s civil rights protesters have done if the SA anthem was played? Obviously, there is no "requirement" that they protest racial or criminal injustice outside the US, but it does go to credibility and context if they don't.OaktownBear said:When Blacks in America protested against segregation and for civil rights, Blacks in South Africa faced a more stringent form of segregation and arguably had it worse than Blacks in America. Yet it took another 20-30 years for people to take up the cause of South Africans. Were they wrong or "nationalist" for not taking up the cause of South Africans while fighting for their rights at home?LunchTime said:I would hope they would: the racial inequality in the Americas is rooted in the UK, French, Spanish, etc Emipres need to have profitable colonies. To dismiss that is pretty simplistic.OaktownBear said:yosemitebear said:
I don't agree with our President's frequent tweeting but Marshawn's actions are the key issue here. My father, a WWII veteran, made sure that as young boys my brother and I showed respect during the playing of the National Anthem. It was very important to him and I have carried that attitude until today. Standing for one anthem over another has taken me over the breaking point. The NFL has lost most of its allure for me and sadly Marshawn is no longer someone I will follow or cheer for.
Go Bears!
I've made it clear that I don't like the national anthem protests, but I don't understand how standing for the Mexican anthem makes it worse. The protest isn't about anthems. It is about perceived injustice in the AMERICAN criminal justice system. Why would somebody making that protest sit for the Mexican anthem? Would you have expected American bronze medal winners in the 1968 Olympics to give the black power salute on the medal stand while they played God Save the Queen?
As for the other poster's point about Mexico being worse, so what? Mexico isn't our country. I certainly don't think that the standard for protesting for the betterment of our country is that if we aren't the worst in the world at something you have to protest every country below us. I guess this is the difference between viewing protest as an unpatriotic act of disrespect vs. viewing is as a patriotic attempt to make this country the best it can be regardless of how it compares to others.
Also, the issue I have with the standing for the Mexican anthem is that if it is about race and inequality (and it is), it seems disingenuous to make the statement that only Americans matter. It oddly mixes in Nationalism.
Americans have little influence over Mexico or any of the other UK, French, Spanish, etc. former colonies. If Marshawn wishes to kneel for the Spanish national anthem to protest the oppression of Catalunya, fine by me, but he is not required to do so in order to make a point about what he views as oppression in the United States as an American citizen.
And yes, as a citizen of the United States, as a member of it's culture and society, as a voter and tax payer I have more of a right and responsibility to see that my country's policies are just than I do every other country in the world. And as a practical matter there is no freaking way I can protest every injustice in the world. Basically your criticism essentially undercuts every single person who protests anything anywhere.
I agree that we all have a greater stake in the political systems and "facts on the ground" in our own country, but that doesn't mean we should overlook comparable injustice in other countries - or perhaps have context as to how our imperfect country compares to other countries.
If standing for an anthem is a sign of respect (or contra, kneeling is a sign of protest), then it does call into question how Marshawn (or others) can protest perceived racial injustice in the US by kneeling, and then stand in respect for an equally imperfect foreign country's national anthem - and when it comes to racial/socio-economic justice, equal protections, etc., a strong case can be made that Mexico and/or England (where other games have been played) are far worse than the US. And that is why standing for the Mexican anthem seems relevant in my view.
I would also add that these types of protests used to not occur on foreign soil - that tradition has eroded in recent years.
Bottom line for me is I like Marshawn - I think he's good hearted and sincere - his actions over a long period of time speak to that. I don't think that about Kap and he certainly does not have Marshawn's long track record of giving back and speaking up for his community (and I disagree with the prior poster who said they thought Kap was intelligent - I've seen no indication of that). I don't like the kneeling, but the players have that right. It hasn't caused me to stop watching NFL games - though apparently many people have (which of course is their right). From the NFL's perspective, it is foolish of them to permit the kneeling for business reasons (why alienate a significant portion of your fan base), but it is a private company and can act however it wants.
Exactly! It's just a handful of rich, pampered athletes vying to get attention. If they really wanted to do something constructive, they would work on reducing black-on-black crime in big cities, and they could start with Chicago. But it's a lot easier to complain about oppression by police, etc.tequila4kapp said:Which ones? I have never seen specific issues articulated at all, just general notions of police violence against minorities - with a subsequent failure / unwillingness to actually discuss the facts of those cases - and frankly that is being kind, as Kaepernick's original statement didn't say a word about the police, but did speak about our so called oppressive government.socaliganbear said:
It's not a protest against anthems at-large. It's a protest against a specific issue within the American criminal justice system. Which is not particularly related to the Mexican or other random national anthems.
Because (i) the tradition of singing the anthem started during wartime, as a sign of patriotism and respect for military service; and (ii) the flag is an obvious symbol of patriotism (many vets will tell you they fought for the flag). As an aside, standing for the anthem is apparently a legal requirement - seems unconstitutional but who knew?dajo9 said:
I don't understand the argument that kneeling disrespects veterans. The protest is clearly articulated and it has nothing to do with veterans.
In any case one of the best things about people getting their panties in a bunch over Marshawn is knowing that Marshawn could care less.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title36/html/USCODE-2011-title36-subtitleI-partA-chap3-sec301.htm)
I disagree - the protest is not clearly articulated - that is part of the problem. Are they protesting police violence? Trump? Racial inequality? What the Texans owner said? No one really knows.
I think its disingenuous for you to claim bewilderment as to why veterans (and lots of other people) are upset by the kneeling. The ONLY reason the kneeling is occurring is because the kneelers know and intend for it to provoke that type of response in many people (akin to flag burning). They are choosing to kneel precisely because they know it is offensive to many.
oh no. I'm sure Marshawn is going to lose sleep because he's not your little *****BBBGOBEARS said:
very disappointed in ML-thought he could rise above this-he is done in my book
BearGoggles said:I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think there is a lot of nuance presented by your analogy. For example, what should Tommie Smith and John Carlos have done in 1968 if/when the South African anthem was played? What would 1960s civil rights protesters have done if the SA anthem was played? Obviously, there is no "requirement" that they protest racial or criminal injustice outside the US, but it does go to credibility and context if they don't.OaktownBear said:When Blacks in America protested against segregation and for civil rights, Blacks in South Africa faced a more stringent form of segregation and arguably had it worse than Blacks in America. Yet it took another 20-30 years for people to take up the cause of South Africans. Were they wrong or "nationalist" for not taking up the cause of South Africans while fighting for their rights at home?LunchTime said:I would hope they would: the racial inequality in the Americas is rooted in the UK, French, Spanish, etc Emipres need to have profitable colonies. To dismiss that is pretty simplistic.OaktownBear said:yosemitebear said:
I don't agree with our President's frequent tweeting but Marshawn's actions are the key issue here. My father, a WWII veteran, made sure that as young boys my brother and I showed respect during the playing of the National Anthem. It was very important to him and I have carried that attitude until today. Standing for one anthem over another has taken me over the breaking point. The NFL has lost most of its allure for me and sadly Marshawn is no longer someone I will follow or cheer for.
Go Bears!
I've made it clear that I don't like the national anthem protests, but I don't understand how standing for the Mexican anthem makes it worse. The protest isn't about anthems. It is about perceived injustice in the AMERICAN criminal justice system. Why would somebody making that protest sit for the Mexican anthem? Would you have expected American bronze medal winners in the 1968 Olympics to give the black power salute on the medal stand while they played God Save the Queen?
As for the other poster's point about Mexico being worse, so what? Mexico isn't our country. I certainly don't think that the standard for protesting for the betterment of our country is that if we aren't the worst in the world at something you have to protest every country below us. I guess this is the difference between viewing protest as an unpatriotic act of disrespect vs. viewing is as a patriotic attempt to make this country the best it can be regardless of how it compares to others.
Also, the issue I have with the standing for the Mexican anthem is that if it is about race and inequality (and it is), it seems disingenuous to make the statement that only Americans matter. It oddly mixes in Nationalism.
Americans have little influence over Mexico or any of the other UK, French, Spanish, etc. former colonies. If Marshawn wishes to kneel for the Spanish national anthem to protest the oppression of Catalunya, fine by me, but he is not required to do so in order to make a point about what he views as oppression in the United States as an American citizen.
And yes, as a citizen of the United States, as a member of it's culture and society, as a voter and tax payer I have more of a right and responsibility to see that my country's policies are just than I do every other country in the world. And as a practical matter there is no freaking way I can protest every injustice in the world. Basically your criticism essentially undercuts every single person who protests anything anywhere.
I agree that we all have a greater stake in the political systems and "facts on the ground" in our own country, but that doesn't mean we should overlook comparable injustice in other countries - or perhaps have context as to how our imperfect country compares to other countries.
If standing for an anthem is a sign of respect (or contra, kneeling is a sign of protest), then it does call into question how Marshawn (or others) can protest perceived racial injustice in the US by kneeling, and then stand in respect for an equally imperfect foreign country's national anthem - and when it comes to racial/socio-economic justice, equal protections, etc., a strong case can be made that Mexico and/or England (where other games have been played) are far worse than the US. And that is why standing for the Mexican anthem seems relevant in my view.
I would also add that these types of protests used to not occur on foreign soil - that tradition has eroded in recent years.
Bottom line for me is I like Marshawn - I think he's good hearted and sincere - his actions over a long period of time speak to that. I don't think that about Kap and he certainly does not have Marshawn's long track record of giving back and speaking up for his community (and I disagree with the prior poster who said they thought Kap was intelligent - I've seen no indication of that). I don't like the kneeling, but the players have that right. It hasn't caused me to stop watching NFL games - though apparently many people have (which of course is their right). From the NFL's perspective, it is foolish of them to permit the kneeling for business reasons (why alienate a significant portion of your fan base), but it is a private company and can act however it wants.
Then BG, I have to say I'm disappointed in you. There have been literally thousands of posts here that I would have thought you disagreed with, but given ample opportunity to express your disagreement, you have not. I can only assume you agree with those posts. Of course you are not required to disagree, but it certainly goes to credibility when you don't.
And worse. You disagree with good Cal fans when there are far more egregious posts on the Stanford, USC, and UCLA boards. Nothing from you there.
LunchTime said:No one should ever have to worry about the government killing them.CAL6371 said:
This is all such nonsense - Black Lives Matter and these protests.
For every white cop who kills a black man 3000 black men are killed by other black men.
These protests are like a man with stage four lung cancer continuing to smoke and complaining about his severely infected toe. Yes, that toe is a problem and needs to be treated, but in context it is absurd to make it the main focus of attention.
There are bad cops, racist cops, lying cops and problem cops - I saw it for over 30 years working in law enforcement and talked about it to the press. These individuals need to be fired.
The black community has several terrible problems - violence by its own members, a 67% rate of births out of wedlock, extremely high rates of unemployment among the young,, poor education etc. These are far mote important problems to address. But addressing addressing them involves criticizing people who are not in law enforcement, so these protesters don't want to address those issues.
Exactly. What is most hypocritical are the number of "small government" advocates on the right who think protesting taxes by stealing tea and dumping it in the harbor was "patriotic" or many who celebrate people who have taken up armed rebellion against the US, have more issue with people protesting the extra-judicial killing of American citizens by our government than with the killing itself. People who worship the US flag and dont seem to care about the US Constitution or American lives.
Not to mention that the whole idea of kneeling during the anthem was a veteran's idea for Kaepernick which he thought was a respectful compromise. https://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/dajo9 said:
I don't understand the argument that kneeling disrespects veterans. The protest is clearly articulated and it has nothing to do with veterans.
In any case one of the best things about people getting their panties in a bunch over Marshawn is knowing that Marshawn could care less.
If you are worried about being killed by the Government, I suggest you stay in your house and don't cross any streets. A lot more pedestrians are killed crossing the street than are killed by cops. Your paranoia and lack of perspective is childish at best.
No one wants unlawful killings by cops - I spent my working life trying to get justice for those killed unlawfully. What have you done?
I have publicly spoken against improper police behavior and it was printed in the local papers. In your working life have you ever had your criticisms of those in your area of work printed in the local newspaper?
No one wants unlawful killings by cops - I spent my working life trying to get justice for those killed unlawfully. What have you done?
I have publicly spoken against improper police behavior and it was printed in the local papers. In your working life have you ever had your criticisms of those in your area of work printed in the local newspaper?
According to Wikipedia, I'm not a lawyer or anything so I'm going off the citation, Circle School vs. Phillips established that this particular section is suggestive and not regulatory. Not abiding by it is not a violation of the law. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/270/616/2501575/BearGoggles said:Because (i) the tradition of singing the anthem started during wartime, as a sign of patriotism and respect for military service; and (ii) the flag is an obvious symbol of patriotism (many vets will tell you they fought for the flag). As an aside, standing for the anthem is apparently a legal requirement - seems unconstitutional but who knew?dajo9 said:
I don't understand the argument that kneeling disrespects veterans. The protest is clearly articulated and it has nothing to do with veterans.
In any case one of the best things about people getting their panties in a bunch over Marshawn is knowing that Marshawn could care less.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title36/html/USCODE-2011-title36-subtitleI-partA-chap3-sec301.htm)
I disagree - the protest is not clearly articulated - that is part of the problem. Are they protesting police violence? Trump? Racial inequality? What the Texans owner said? No one really knows.
I think its disingenuous for you to claim bewilderment as to why veterans (and lots of other people) are upset by the kneeling. The ONLY reason the kneeling is occurring is because the kneelers know and intend for it to provoke that type of response in many people (akin to flag burning). They are choosing to kneel precisely because they know it is offensive to many.
Above written in response to calalumnus
https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/932792408873381888/photo/1
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
goingforroses - Who here is defending Trump? Not me.
I voted for Kasich and then the Libertarian ticket - Trump is the only Republican I did not vote for on the Presidential ballot in my life. Trump is a fraud, just as Mitt Romney said in his speech last year. Trump is simply a rich kid salesman and serial liar.
If this was aimed at me, you better go back to the firing range - you need more practice.
I voted for Kasich and then the Libertarian ticket - Trump is the only Republican I did not vote for on the Presidential ballot in my life. Trump is a fraud, just as Mitt Romney said in his speech last year. Trump is simply a rich kid salesman and serial liar.
If this was aimed at me, you better go back to the firing range - you need more practice.
knob - Try again - I was never a peace officer.
Your accusations are no more accurate than those of Senator McCarthy or Trump's hero Roy Cohn.
Try doing some research - if you can.
Your accusations are no more accurate than those of Senator McCarthy or Trump's hero Roy Cohn.
Try doing some research - if you can.
My bad. Thought you were. You got me.CAL6371 said:
knob - Try again - I was never a peace officer.
Your accusations are no more accurate than those of Senator McCarthy or Trump's hero Roy Cohn.
Try doing some research - if you can.
knob - Apology accepted. I never wanted to be a cop and when I saw the details of their work (via ride-alongs etc), I knew I didn't have the patience to put up with the crap they had to take.
Moma Lynch's tweet responding to trump
Delisa Lynch
@MommaLynch24
what NFL team do Trump own ? oh yeah they wouldnt let him have one ,!! LMAO
11:05 AM - Nov 20, 2017 Tracy, CA
- [url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=932686328218599426][/url]
1,4221,422 Replies - [url=https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=932686328218599426][/url]
23,32823,328 Retweets - [url=https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=932686328218599426][/url]
62,01662,016 likes
The link is not directed at anyone. Just adding insight/another perspective to the discussion.
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
That's silly. Everyone knows that traffic can kill you and even those that pay strict attention can be randomly offed if they are unlucky. We still go outside because we live our lives.CAL6371 said:
If you are worried about being killed by the Government, I suggest you stay in your house and don't cross any streets. A lot more pedestrians are killed crossing the street than are killed by cops. Your paranoia and lack of perspective is childish at best.
Conversely, we are all taught that our country values equality, in spite of differences in race, religion, sexual orientation, and when we see bias, we call it out. When people are killed, it affects large populations. I don't see large populations terrified of cars, that's different.
Yes, my friend, they're all rich and pampered. And because they're rich and have widespread name recognition, they like to make public displays of various sorts. Nice that you pull out the racist label. That's a favorite technique of leftists to address people who hold views different from theirs. I would have thought that with your Cal education, you'd be above that. I deeply regret that I'm wrong. By the way, I don't believe that any of the few athletes that sit or kneel for the national anthem is the best at what they do.graguna said:Rich and pampered?Golden One said:Exactly! It's just a handful of rich, pampered athletes vying to get attention. If they really wanted to do something constructive, they would work on reducing black-on-black crime in big cities, and they could start with Chicago. But it's a lot easier to complain about oppression by police, etc.tequila4kapp said:
Which ones? I have never seen specific issues articulated at all, just general notions of police violence against minorities - with a subsequent failure / unwillingness to actually discuss the facts of those cases - and frankly that is being kind, as Kaepernick's original statement didn't say a word about the police, but did speak about our so called oppressive government.
Is zuckerberg rich and pampered? Is YoYo Ma rich and pampered. You see, the way things work; if your the best at what you do, you get paid. And much to our dismay, you get paid even if your black.
You come off as a racist? is that your intention? these athletes have earned all they have gotten in life. They didn't inherit their money, they earned it.
I don't see how convicting someone based on evidence should have anything to do with our deeply divided society. If anything, that line of logic only highlights how trials of police officers are not actually serving justice, since politics is at least as important as what actually happened.CAL6371 said:
Sketchy9 - Injustice by the police is, as you said, rarely punished. Absolutely true - we have jury trials in this country and getting all 12 jurors to punish a guy who does a difficult job is nearly impossible.
There are several solutions - insist that you DA and City Council etc. provide the best training and screening of police applicants and enforce the law on everyone. Lobby your state legislator to abolish unanimous verdicts - it is not against the US Constitution (only the Calif Constitution) - that will make it easier to convict law breakers (police and non-police). With our deeply divided society, how can you expect a verdict against cops with a unanimous verdict?
Don't like those solutions? Let's hear your suggestions.
You know what all of your proposed solutions require? An acknowledgment that there's a problem in the first place.You've acknowledged that police injustice is rarely punished, and I respect that you're aware of that. Many, many people aren't. So in their eyes there is no problem that needs to remedied. That's what these protests are about. They're raising awareness of an issue that is all too often swept under the rug and ignored. And they're doing it in a very public way in a manner designed to garner maximum attention, because they really really want people to know what's going on.
CAL6371 said:
If you are worried about being killed by the Government, I suggest you stay in your house and don't cross any streets. A lot more pedestrians are killed crossing the street than are killed by cops. Your paranoia and lack of perspective is childish at best.
No one wants unlawful killings by cops - I spent my working life trying to get justice for those killed unlawfully. What have you done?
I have publicly spoken against improper police behavior and it was printed in the local papers. In your working life have you ever had your criticisms of those in your area of work printed in the local newspaper?
If you spent your working life doing trying to make the system and those in it accountable, to the law, why call say that others doing the same is "nonsense"? The "3000 times more likely to be killed" argument (even if accurate) is spurious. Killings by non-police, especially by African American suspects tend to be VIGOROUSLY prosecuted by our criminal justice system. If the logic is you can only be upset about the thing that causes the MOST deaths to Americans then "radical Islamic terrorists" is somewhere below todlers with guns and absolutely no one should ever complain about taxes.
CAL6371 said:
goingforroses - Who here is defending Trump? Not me.
I voted for Kasich and then the Libertarian ticket - Trump is the only Republican I did not vote for on the Presidential ballot in my life. Trump is a fraud, just as Mitt Romney said in his speech last year. Trump is simply a rich kid salesman and serial liar.
If this was aimed at me, you better go back to the firing range - you need more practice.
If you lean Libertarian, consider that our rights as Americans mean nothing if the government, or those working under the authority of government and paid through our taxes,, can take your life without process or consequence.
Sketchy9 - This issue of police shooting has been in the news a lot lately. Recent studies I have heard about conclude that the number of police shootings has dropped drastically over the last 15 years. New York City has seen this and they keep reliable records on such events. National records on this are not so reliable yet.
I believe my opinions on the subject have some experience behind them. I have prosecuted more than 25 homicide cases and supervised a homicide prosecution unit for ten years. During those years, I conducted investigations of many police shootings. When the OJ verdict was going to be read, I appeared live on local tv and predicted before the verdict that OJ would be acquitted. The very experienced defense counsel who was on the program predicted a conviction. I have a video tape of the event - so I am not relying on a faulty memory in my old age. I think I know what I am talking about when it comes to juries in homicide cases.
Every jury trial has an element of a popularity contest. That is not fair or perfectly just, but it is accurate imo. Luckily for prosecutors, the defendant is usually easily painted as the bad guy.Most jurors do not see police officers as the bad guy. People's preconceptions and prejudgment play a huge role. Any prosecutor who is trying to convince a juror to convict a cop of any level of homicide has a very heavy lifting job - he starts out behind the 8 ball. He has to convince all 12 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy who they believe has spent years protecting and serving them has committed a terrible act. Good luck on that.
A jury trial is a living event and timing and emotions play a large role. A prosecutor has to make very few mistakes to win - some tactical blunders can destroy a good case (would you like to try on this blood soaked stiff glove Mr SImpson? - would you like to tell the jurors if you planted this glove or will you take the 5th Officer Furman?)
I have seen cases of police misconduct lost even when the main witness against the officer was another officer. We all remember the acquittal of cops when the main evidence was a videotape of the event in the Rodney King case. Jurors can come to strange, illogical conclusions. Were these verdicts fair or just or based solely on logic? Imo they were not, but they happened.
Many prosecutors avoid tough cases they might lose. The US Department of Justice under Obama (no great lover of Wall Street) has not prosecuted any of the numbskulls responsible for the financial collapse of 2008. Why? Read the book The Chicken**** Club by Jesse Eisinger.
Sorry to rant at such length, but there are many factors in why some cops are not prosecuted. It is not a simple topic.
I believe my opinions on the subject have some experience behind them. I have prosecuted more than 25 homicide cases and supervised a homicide prosecution unit for ten years. During those years, I conducted investigations of many police shootings. When the OJ verdict was going to be read, I appeared live on local tv and predicted before the verdict that OJ would be acquitted. The very experienced defense counsel who was on the program predicted a conviction. I have a video tape of the event - so I am not relying on a faulty memory in my old age. I think I know what I am talking about when it comes to juries in homicide cases.
Every jury trial has an element of a popularity contest. That is not fair or perfectly just, but it is accurate imo. Luckily for prosecutors, the defendant is usually easily painted as the bad guy.Most jurors do not see police officers as the bad guy. People's preconceptions and prejudgment play a huge role. Any prosecutor who is trying to convince a juror to convict a cop of any level of homicide has a very heavy lifting job - he starts out behind the 8 ball. He has to convince all 12 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy who they believe has spent years protecting and serving them has committed a terrible act. Good luck on that.
A jury trial is a living event and timing and emotions play a large role. A prosecutor has to make very few mistakes to win - some tactical blunders can destroy a good case (would you like to try on this blood soaked stiff glove Mr SImpson? - would you like to tell the jurors if you planted this glove or will you take the 5th Officer Furman?)
I have seen cases of police misconduct lost even when the main witness against the officer was another officer. We all remember the acquittal of cops when the main evidence was a videotape of the event in the Rodney King case. Jurors can come to strange, illogical conclusions. Were these verdicts fair or just or based solely on logic? Imo they were not, but they happened.
Many prosecutors avoid tough cases they might lose. The US Department of Justice under Obama (no great lover of Wall Street) has not prosecuted any of the numbskulls responsible for the financial collapse of 2008. Why? Read the book The Chicken**** Club by Jesse Eisinger.
Sorry to rant at such length, but there are many factors in why some cops are not prosecuted. It is not a simple topic.
OaktownBear said:BearGoggles said:I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think there is a lot of nuance presented by your analogy. For example, what should Tommie Smith and John Carlos have done in 1968 if/when the South African anthem was played? What would 1960s civil rights protesters have done if the SA anthem was played? Obviously, there is no "requirement" that they protest racial or criminal injustice outside the US, but it does go to credibility and context if they don't.OaktownBear said:When Blacks in America protested against segregation and for civil rights, Blacks in South Africa faced a more stringent form of segregation and arguably had it worse than Blacks in America. Yet it took another 20-30 years for people to take up the cause of South Africans. Were they wrong or "nationalist" for not taking up the cause of South Africans while fighting for their rights at home?LunchTime said:I would hope they would: the racial inequality in the Americas is rooted in the UK, French, Spanish, etc Emipres need to have profitable colonies. To dismiss that is pretty simplistic.OaktownBear said:yosemitebear said:
I don't agree with our President's frequent tweeting but Marshawn's actions are the key issue here. My father, a WWII veteran, made sure that as young boys my brother and I showed respect during the playing of the National Anthem. It was very important to him and I have carried that attitude until today. Standing for one anthem over another has taken me over the breaking point. The NFL has lost most of its allure for me and sadly Marshawn is no longer someone I will follow or cheer for.
Go Bears!
I've made it clear that I don't like the national anthem protests, but I don't understand how standing for the Mexican anthem makes it worse. The protest isn't about anthems. It is about perceived injustice in the AMERICAN criminal justice system. Why would somebody making that protest sit for the Mexican anthem? Would you have expected American bronze medal winners in the 1968 Olympics to give the black power salute on the medal stand while they played God Save the Queen?
As for the other poster's point about Mexico being worse, so what? Mexico isn't our country. I certainly don't think that the standard for protesting for the betterment of our country is that if we aren't the worst in the world at something you have to protest every country below us. I guess this is the difference between viewing protest as an unpatriotic act of disrespect vs. viewing is as a patriotic attempt to make this country the best it can be regardless of how it compares to others.
Also, the issue I have with the standing for the Mexican anthem is that if it is about race and inequality (and it is), it seems disingenuous to make the statement that only Americans matter. It oddly mixes in Nationalism.
Americans have little influence over Mexico or any of the other UK, French, Spanish, etc. former colonies. If Marshawn wishes to kneel for the Spanish national anthem to protest the oppression of Catalunya, fine by me, but he is not required to do so in order to make a point about what he views as oppression in the United States as an American citizen.
And yes, as a citizen of the United States, as a member of it's culture and society, as a voter and tax payer I have more of a right and responsibility to see that my country's policies are just than I do every other country in the world. And as a practical matter there is no freaking way I can protest every injustice in the world. Basically your criticism essentially undercuts every single person who protests anything anywhere.
I agree that we all have a greater stake in the political systems and "facts on the ground" in our own country, but that doesn't mean we should overlook comparable injustice in other countries - or perhaps have context as to how our imperfect country compares to other countries.
If standing for an anthem is a sign of respect (or contra, kneeling is a sign of protest), then it does call into question how Marshawn (or others) can protest perceived racial injustice in the US by kneeling, and then stand in respect for an equally imperfect foreign country's national anthem - and when it comes to racial/socio-economic justice, equal protections, etc., a strong case can be made that Mexico and/or England (where other games have been played) are far worse than the US. And that is why standing for the Mexican anthem seems relevant in my view.
I would also add that these types of protests used to not occur on foreign soil - that tradition has eroded in recent years.
Bottom line for me is I like Marshawn - I think he's good hearted and sincere - his actions over a long period of time speak to that. I don't think that about Kap and he certainly does not have Marshawn's long track record of giving back and speaking up for his community (and I disagree with the prior poster who said they thought Kap was intelligent - I've seen no indication of that). I don't like the kneeling, but the players have that right. It hasn't caused me to stop watching NFL games - though apparently many people have (which of course is their right). From the NFL's perspective, it is foolish of them to permit the kneeling for business reasons (why alienate a significant portion of your fan base), but it is a private company and can act however it wants.
Then BG, I have to say I'm disappointed in you. There have been literally thousands of posts here that I would have thought you disagreed with, but given ample opportunity to express your disagreement, you have not. I can only assume you agree with those posts. Of course you are not required to disagree, but it certainly goes to credibility when you don't.
And worse. You disagree with good Cal fans when there are far more egregious posts on the Stanford, USC, and UCLA boards. Nothing from you there.
Nice dodge. Obviously a big difference between a celebrity/athlete making a political statement on national tv (when confronted with two anthems played back to back) vs. posters on an internet bulletin board. But of course, you knew that. No one is asking Marshawn (or whoever) to protest every injustice in the world. But protesting your country's anthem while immediately thereafter honoring another country's anthem by standing - on foreign soil - is a pretty obviously connection/comparison. Why not kneel for both? I understand your point - that he's not obligated to protest the other country - but don't be surprised when people negatively point out the disparity in how Marshawn (or whoever) respects his own country's flag/anthem vs. the foreign country's.
And I note that its not entirely clear what Marshawn was doing - because he hasn't and won't say. But in the earlier game in England, athletes did kneel for ours and stand for theirs.
OaktownBear - this is well below your typically well thought out posts. Try again. You can do better.
Featured Stories
See All
Cal Duo Earns Pac-12 Weekly Honors
by Cal Athletics
Cal Football - Post Spring Review
by Bear Insider
Bears Complete The Sweep Over 5th Ranked Beavers
by Cal Athletics