The Most Fiscally Irresponsible Government We've Ever Had

12,398 Views | 92 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by concordtom
dajo9
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drizzlybears brother said:

dajo9 said:

It also happens to be backed up by data but your views are clearly dominated by your emotions and feelings.
I suspect dajo, that this post verbatim could have been posted by golden or any other of the more conservative voices here.

Both sides truly believe that they are the ones dealing in fact. The extent of the divide, however, suggests that's not possible. So which side seams more open to reconsidering their conclusions, and how they arrived there? Which side is more likely to be open to reconsidering their world view when facts begin not to fit it? Is either side willing to actively seek informed opposing views to challenge and refine their own personal views?

We've been in this same social support vs small government lather - rinse, lather - rinse cycle for over a generation, but it's likely that change is coming that will throw these conventions on there ear. And who then among us will be most prepared to address these new conditions as they truly are?
There's lots of data out there. An individual has to choose whether or not to use it.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective
American Vermin
iwantwinners
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dajo9 said:

President Trump and the Republican House and Senate have recently enacted two fiscal bills that amount to the most fiscally irresponsible government America has ever had. Due to the tax cut and the increased spending, the estimate of the deficit for the current fiscal year is $1.15 trillion. This, at a time when unemployment is about 4% and GDP growth is modest, if not what we would like it to be.

Fiscal responsibility would demand running surpluses in the current economy, given our current national debt is over 100% of GDP for the first time since WWII.

We've seen this movie before. Americans have been voting to receive something for nothing for a long time now. Last time, shortly after GWB's tax cuts, we generated a bubble economy, which was great for a little while. Deficits even stayed down during the bubble economy allowing supply-siders to strut around. Then the bubble crashed and our debt doubled. In fact, that was the time to run deficits to help the economy get back on its feet. Now is not the time to run trillion dollar deficits. When we go into recession, and we will at some point, the country will be on the worst fiscal footing it has ever been.


You're free to send a check to the feds if you aren't happy with your tax cuts. You probably already have, I'm sure. Everybody wants free sh*t, including the rich. Politicians enrich their constituents whether they cut taxes or not, whether there is a debt or not. Dems cut taxes, then let them expire. It's convenient to say we have debt, therefore we can't just NOT cut taxes, we must raise them. Why wouldn't the government be unafraid of running up debt and not balancing the budget then. Most everybody wants to cut taxes (generally) but neither party has the balls to cut equivalent spending. Everybody likes their free benefits.
B.A. Bearacus
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dajo9
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Marco Rubio will frequently speak to both sides of an issue but he always reliably votes with his fellow Republicans.

Q1 2018 was a record for US debt issuance. Still no commentary from our conservative friends on this thread. These fiscal shenanigans from Republicans was predictable and was predicted by many of us on the left who believe in fiscal responsibility.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-30/treasury-s-488-billion-in-borrowing-sets-a-first-quarter-record
American Vermin
concordtom
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You had me at thread title.
And I need to vent before reading any further!

I'd think the everyone can see what's going on, but I'd be wrong.
Politicians are just pumping the economy with excess government spending, fuel by debt accumulation.
It is highly irresponsible because it threatens the long term stability and world wide economic role of the United States.
Trump cares about nothing other than himself, so of course he will mortgage the future so that he can brag about the current uptrend. But it's highly dangerous.

I hate trump as much as any politician ever.
I wish he'd have a heart attakc and drop dead.
I blame the idiot masses who do not see thru his veil, are fooled by their own need to be "right" and on a "winning" side. Or just a lemming for whomever carries their "Republican" banner.

As Kasich said this weekend, "I didn't leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me!"

No kidding. Where have you gone joe DiMaggio, the nation needs you more than you can know.
concordtom
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concordtom
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It's much easier to argue about where to cut when you see the outlays like that.
Often times, folks will get into very long debates about a tiny fraction of the pie.

Another Bear
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Seems we have competing pie charts on the US budget.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spending-united-states/


Peanut Gallery Consultant
dajo9
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We don't have competing pie charts. The 2nd chart is discretionary spending only. That is the yellow part of the first pie chart. It doesn't include social security, medicare, etc. which is not considered discretionary as the payments are prescribed by law.

In reality, I think it's all discretionary. The laws can be changed.
American Vermin
BearNIt
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At least the Corporate Tax Cuts are working out. They are investing those tax savings into expansion of factories, R&D and the American worker. What's a little deficit, the President loves deficits. We better get to that GDP growth of 3% otherwise we will be F**cked.
concordtom
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Thank you, dajo.

Any economist will recognize the formula GDP = C + I + G - (exports - imports)

So, while we attempt to balance the federal budget (tax revenue - G), we must be careful not to decrease G too much too fast, else GDP will fall and the economy goes into recession.

It's easy to see that Trump, et al, are stimulating GDP for current benefit at the expense of federal deficits.



Who was it that said we are intoxicated on excess spending? Punch drunk.
It's long past time for rehab, and yes, there will be withdraw symptoms.
concordtom
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This is hilarious.
He was AGAINST in before he was for it, and now he's simply giving up.

Representative Paul Ryan -- 'BORROWS TOO MUCH FROM OUR KIDS AND THEIR KIDS'

Date: April 4, 2009
Debt: $11,146,566,832,297
Wisconsin Republican Paul Ryan has been proposing budget that would reduce the debt for over a decade: "The president's budget which passed the House and Senate this week we'll make the crisis much much worse. Rather than getting spending under control it -- spending out of control. Rather than keeping taxes low to create jobs it chases ever higher spending with ever higher taxes and results in ever higher debt. An unprecedented. Unsustainable. Increase in -- It doubles our national debt in five years in triples our debt in ten years. Put simply. The Democrats' budget spends too much, taxes too much and borrows too much from our kids and their kids."

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-people-freaking-out-about-the-national-debt-2010-6
concordtom
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Republicans traditionally stood for balanced budgets and debt control.
Where are they today?

Will whoever wins in 2020 take the bitter medicine?
concordtom
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China's game:

Keep investing in US expansion of debt, which creates economic instability.
Interest rates are low now, a function of supply vs demand.
As demand for US Govt debt is strong, interest rates are low.

If China reduces their demand for US debt by investing in any innumerable possibilities, rates will go up and the US will have to pay a larger portion of our annual budget on debt service (interest). That will exacerbate the economy, cause either we borrow more (largest deficits) or reduce expenses elsewhere. And we appear incapable of decreasing expenditures.

Of course, we could allow inflation to occur and inflate the debt away.
But that will have its own set of problems.
Default is out of the question, though Trump would think not (just like he did in Atlantic City, he likes to F his bond holders).

China either gets paid a long term wealth transfer or compromises our economy long term.
concordtom
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GDP = C + I + G + (X-M)
This shows the relative size of each.





.... the inclusion of housing here is new to me. Who wants to explain?
dajo9
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BearNIt said:

At least the Corporate Tax Cuts are working out. They are investing those tax savings into expansion of factories, R&D and the American worker. What's a little deficit, the President loves deficits. We better get to that GDP growth of 3% otherwise we will be F**cked.
Everything I've read says the tax cuts are going to investors through stock buybacks and mergers. Can you provide a link to back up your claim?
American Vermin
dajo9
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concordtom said:

Republicans traditionally stood for balanced budgets and debt control.
Where are they today?

Will whoever wins in 2020 take the bitter medicine?
I don't know your definition of traditionally, but I am middle aged and my whole adult life Republicans have stood for undertaxing the wealthy and exploding deficits.

I think undertaxing the wealthy is a key component and one not fully addressed by you. You and many others focus on spending, and I agree it can be cut further, but when folks like Mitt Romney are paying 15% - 20% average taxes (lower now, I'm sure after the Trump tax cuts) there is a wealthy and powerful segment of the population that is undertaxed.

Also, China buys Treasuries because they have so many dollars from their exports. If they stopped buying US assets like Treasuries they'd have to sell their dollars, driving the price of the dollar down and making Chinese exports to America more expensive. This would crash the Chinese economy. They do not have some kind of magical lever to pull against us. It's more a M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction) scenario.

Finally, I think Housing is a subset of Investment but it separates business investment from household investment.
American Vermin
concordtom
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dajo9 said:

BearNIt said:

At least the Corporate Tax Cuts are working out. They are investing those tax savings into expansion of factories, R&D and the American worker. What's a little deficit, the President loves deficits. We better get to that GDP growth of 3% otherwise we will be F**cked.
Everything I've read says the tax cuts are going to investors through stock buybacks and mergers. Can you provide a link to back up your claim?
I'm a career stock trader. Yet must consider stuff like this:

Dow 22,000? Most Americans don't benefit from record stock market gains.

Most of gains are going to the wealthy. Nearly half of country has $0 invested in the market, according to the Federal Reserve and numerous surveys by groups such as Gallup and Bankrate. That means people have no money in pension funds, 401(k) retirement plans, IRAs, mutual funds or ETFs.

The rich are far more likely to own stocks than middle or working-class families. Eighty-nine percent of families with incomes over $100,000 have at least some money in the stock market, compared with just 21 percent of households earning $30,000 or less, a recent Gallup survey found.

Stock ownership before 2008 was 62 percent, Gallup found. Even after recent inflows, only 54 percent of Americans are invested.

A rising tide does lift all boats. But, similarly, a massive debt will throttle all grandchildren.

The tax cuts are going to the rich.
dajo9
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May 2018, the Federal deficit was $147 billion. A 66% increase from May 2017.

This is conservative fiscal policy. As McConnell just said, this period has been the best period for conservative values since he came to Washington.
American Vermin
bearister
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"Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was told "deficits don't matter" when he warned of a looming fiscal crisis.
O'Neill, fired in a shakeup of Bush's economic team in December 2002, raised objections to a new round of tax cuts and said the president balked at his more aggressive plan to combat corporate crime after a string of accounting scandals because of opposition from "the corporate crowd," a key constituency.
O'Neill said he tried to warn Vice President Dick Cheney that growing budget deficits-expected to top $500 billion this fiscal year alone-posed a threat to the economy. Cheney cut him off. "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter," he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: "We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due." A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired." OntheIssues.org

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concordtom
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dajo9 said:

May 2018, the Federal deficit was $147 billion. A 66% increase from May 2017.

This is conservative fiscal policy. As McConnell just said, this period has been the best period for conservative values since he came to Washington.
Thx for the facts.
They are stimulating the current economy and selling our future.

I once listened to a presentation by Wharton professor Jeremy Siegel on long term trade with China. We are current consumers (spenders) while they are savers. His point was that as some future point in time, China will have the upper economic hand as a result.

Well, I'm reminded of that relationship as I say again that the current deficits may certainly feed the current appetite, but at the cost of future strength.

If Trump is both short-sighted and selfish (check, check), it completely works to his benefit. I'm just sad that other Yahoo!'s on this board and across the country don't get it. China's leadership does.
sycasey
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concordtom said:

Thx for the facts.
They are stimulating the current economy and selling our future.


Not even sure how much they're stimulating it. Seems like we're just on the same gradual upward trajectory we had during the Obama years.
sp4149
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sycasey said:

concordtom said:

Thx for the facts.
They are stimulating the current economy and selling our future.


Not even sure how much they're stimulating it. Seems like we're just on the same gradual upward trajectory we had during the Obama years.
After I got my MBA I realized that almost all the prevailing economics math was linear algebra. When compared to other math applications of calculus to explain the world.

The whole deficit explanation/projection is based on the naive assumption that the effect of a deficit is fixed, a trillion dollar deficit always produces the same effect. That is the velocity math model. Over the years I have become convinced in the acceleration math models. that is the deficit has to accelerate each year to provide the same economic stimulus. Deficit spending has seemed to work best when there was a balanced budget and then the government starts to spend money it doesn't have and the deficit effect initially has a big impact. But to me that in order to carry that economic stimulus forward the annual deficit has to increase each year by the same amount (acceleration). so the annual deficit has to grow at an ever faster rate.

One trillion the first year, two trillion the second year, three trillion the third year, four trillion the fourth year, 5 trillion the fifth year. If you maintain the deficit at one trillion annually, after five years the total accumulated deficit has grown five trillion. Under my projection in five years the accumulated deficit has grown FIFTEEN trillion, three times as much due to deficit acceleration to maintain ongoing, steady economic stimulus. Obviously a balanced budget, providing deceleration by removing deficits would negate or reverse previous economic growth stimulus.

The Obama administration thought that execution/timing would also enhance economic stimulus, Congress had been told about "Shovel Ready Projects" that could start within 90 days of funding providing a rapid response to an influx of deficit dollars. For Obama, as President, quickly found out the various Federal agencies had cooked the books and the vast majority of shovel ready projects did not really exist. Many eventually got built but did not start in 90 days but in his second term. Under the new tax rates and budget my gross income has been unchanged but the withholding of my pay has increased resulting in a net loss. I had a lot of deductions for state income tax and property tax as a single senior. The Trump tax breaks are aimed at couples and those with dependents. At the same time as my adjusted gross income increases due to the loss of deductions, the 2018 marginal tax rate for my AGI is actually higher than the 2017 rate for the same AGI. If I lived in a state subsidized by the Federal Government, a higher standard deduction would have reduced my AGI. Unfortunately it won't be until a couple of months after this November's election when American Tax payers find out they have been hoodwinked by the illusion of tax breaks creating a deficit stimulus.
golden sloth
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Quote:

"It is not enough to merely have an American presence in space. We must have American dominance in space," Mr Trump said at the White House.

He also promised that the US would "return Americans to the Moon" and would eventually send people to Mars.

"I'm hereby directing the Department of Defense and Pentagon to immediately begin the process necessary to establish a space force as the sixth branch of the armed forces," Mr Trump announced, moments after he discussed US and German approaches to immigration .
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44527672

I actually support investing in scientific exploration of space (aka Nasa), but I don't see the need to militarize space, and I absolutely don't understand the notion that because the military is going to be in charge that the task is going to be done effectively and efficiently. I think most Americans have an idealized version of what the military is and is capable of. Which is odd considering the US military has had one decisive victory since WWII (Iraq 1), and is caught up in several seemingly never-ending wars which they can't win. I'm not blaming the military, just believe that the mystique and aura of the military needs to be reevaluated.
dajo9
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sp4149 said:

sycasey said:

concordtom said:

Thx for the facts.
They are stimulating the current economy and selling our future.


Not even sure how much they're stimulating it. Seems like we're just on the same gradual upward trajectory we had during the Obama years.
After I got my MBA I realized that almost all the prevailing economics math was linear algebra. When compared to other math applications of calculus to explain the world.

The whole deficit explanation/projection is based on the naive assumption that the effect of a deficit is fixed, a trillion dollar deficit always produces the same effect. That is the velocity math model. Over the years I have become convinced in the acceleration math models. that is the deficit has to accelerate each year to provide the same economic stimulus. Deficit spending has seemed to work best when there was a balanced budget and then the government starts to spend money it doesn't have and the deficit effect initially has a big impact. But to me that in order to carry that economic stimulus forward the annual deficit has to increase each year by the same amount (acceleration). so the annual deficit has to grow at an ever faster rate.

One trillion the first year, two trillion the second year, three trillion the third year, four trillion the fourth year, 5 trillion the fifth year. If you maintain the deficit at one trillion annually, after five years the total accumulated deficit has grown five trillion. Under my projection in five years the accumulated deficit has grown FIFTEEN trillion, three times as much due to deficit acceleration to maintain ongoing, steady economic stimulus. Obviously a balanced budget, providing deceleration by removing deficits would negate or reverse previous economic growth stimulus.

The Obama administration thought that execution/timing would also enhance economic stimulus, Congress had been told about "Shovel Ready Projects" that could start within 90 days of funding providing a rapid response to an influx of deficit dollars. For Obama, as President, quickly found out the various Federal agencies had cooked the books and the vast majority of shovel ready projects did not really exist. Many eventually got built but did not start in 90 days but in his second term. Under the new tax rates and budget my gross income has been unchanged but the withholding of my pay has increased resulting in a net loss. I had a lot of deductions for state income tax and property tax as a single senior. The Trump tax breaks are aimed at couples and those with dependents. At the same time as my adjusted gross income increases due to the loss of deductions, the 2018 marginal tax rate for my AGI is actually higher than the 2017 rate for the same AGI. If I lived in a state subsidized by the Federal Government, a higher standard deduction would have reduced my AGI. Unfortunately it won't be until a couple of months after this November's election when American Tax payers find out they have been hoodwinked by the illusion of tax breaks creating a deficit stimulus.
Economics definitely has flaws. The world is too complicated for a "model". However, the big gaping hole in economic thought, to me, is that the models don't account for who is getting the money. A $1 trillion deficit that goes to the wealthy in a period of high income inequality is far less stimulative than a $1 trillion deficit that goes to the poor. That is why a supply side tax cut might stimulate the economy in 1981 (and this is the holy grail that Republicans are continuously striving for) but it will not in 2017.

Today's deficits do little but trigger financial volatility. The good news is, when our government puts its head back on, they'll know where to easily find the money to balance the books.
American Vermin
sp4149
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dajo9 said:

sp4149 said:



After I got my MBA I realized that almost all the prevailing economics math was linear algebra. When compared to other math applications of calculus to explain the world.

...

The Obama administration thought that execution/timing would also enhance economic stimulus, Congress had been told about "Shovel Ready Projects" that could start within 90 days of funding providing a rapid response to an influx of deficit dollars. For Obama, as President, quickly found out the various Federal agencies had cooked the books and the vast majority of shovel ready projects did not really exist. Many eventually got built but did not start in 90 days but in his second term. Under the new tax rates and budget my gross income has been unchanged but the withholding of my pay has increased resulting in a net loss. I had a lot of deductions for state income tax and property tax as a single senior. The Trump tax breaks are aimed at couples and those with dependents. At the same time as my adjusted gross income increases due to the loss of deductions, the 2018 marginal tax rate for my AGI is actually higher than the 2017 rate for the same AGI. If I lived in a state subsidized by the Federal Government, a higher standard deduction would have reduced my AGI. Unfortunately it won't be until a couple of months after this November's election when American Tax payers find out they have been hoodwinked by the illusion of tax breaks creating a deficit stimulus.
Economics definitely has flaws. The world is too complicated for a "model". However, the big gaping hole in economic thought, to me, is that the models don't account for who is getting the money. A $1 trillion deficit that goes to the wealthy in a period of high income inequality is far less stimulative than a $1 trillion deficit that goes to the poor. That is why a supply side tax cut might stimulate the economy in 1981 (and this is the holy grail that Republicans are continuously striving for) but it will not in 2017.

Today's deficits do little but trigger financial volatility. The good news is, when our government puts its head back on, they'll know where to easily find the money to balance the books.
For the last 20 years the GOP plan has been not to eliminate progressive programs hated by conservatives, but to starve them to death with tax and funding cuts, ultimately forcing the Government to abandon them. Building up the military spending will prevent those funds being used for health care, Social Security, non-military retirements, public education, or the infrastructure. Anybody remember Trump's infrastructure plan; actually less a plan than a hope that the private sector will pay for it. The GOP is poised to eliminate funding programs that benefit citizens other than the rich and corporations.
concordtom
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If we devoted a portion of our military budget to solar energy economy, we'd get some return on our investment.
Stupid central planners are short sighted. See my free energy thread, which got the least response/views imaginable.
B.A. Bearacus
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Jr. is just pathetic.

Unit2Sucks
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And it's already since been lowered to 3.7% with first quarter growth trimmed to 2%.

Anyone surprised to see a Trump spike the football before the goal line?
Another Bear
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Larry Kudlow says deficit is 'coming down rapidly,' but it sure doesn't look that way
Quote:

  • Larry Kudlow says "the deficit" is "coming down, and it's coming down rapidly."
  • But recent data from the Congressional Budget Office says the deficit remains "persistently large," and will get larger over the next 10 years.


  • concordtom
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    I do not trust any of those people one bit, which is why I want them all voted out.
    Truth must prevail, not lies.
    concordtom
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    sp4149 said:

    For the last 20 years the GOP plan has been not to eliminate progressive programs hated by conservatives, but to starve them to death with tax and funding cuts, ultimately forcing the Government to abandon them. Building up the military spending will prevent those funds being used for health care, Social Security, non-military retirements, public education, or the infrastructure. Anybody remember Trump's infrastructure plan; actually less a plan than a hope that the private sector will pay for it. The GOP is poised to eliminate funding programs that benefit citizens other than the rich and corporations.
    More lies.
    I hate hate hate hate hate Donald Trump et al.
    bearister
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    B.A. Bearacus said:

    Jr. is just pathetic.




    tRump Lite's only priority these days is bumping uglies.
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    bearister
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    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/30/supreme-court-sledgehammer-new-deal-republicans?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
    Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
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    B.A. Bearacus
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