What happened after Nixon?

969 Views | 12 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by mikecohen
concordtom
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This morning, I have a clearer sense that Trump is going down. And it's for the exact reason I thought he was a disqualified candidate in Aug 2015: he's simply a horrible character who is incapable of properly leading the country.

Whether he resigns, is voted out, or is impeached on god knows which misconduct charges it doesn't matter. I think that history books will say that he was a bad President. And it is about that time when I will have the impulse to stick my finger in the eye of all those (e.g.: my cousins in Texas) who rode Trump's act all the way into the grave. I'll want to say, "see, I told you! How could you have been so stupid all these months and years not to see the truth about his character? How could you continue to support and defend him?!?!"

Yet, I know, that sort of behavior only makes people back up in defense of their previously held positions. Rather than sheepishly admitting they were ultimately wrong, folks tend to double down and counterattack. Instead of moving on, lessons learned, not only would my personal relationships be permanently injured but the national dialogue would transition into an attack of whomever comes next.

In this way, it would seem that Dems and Repubs would be doomed to a never ending eye for an eye battle of attrition. No healing, no unity, no resolution and moving on to bigger and better things.

And so, my questions for older Bears, what was it like in '72 when watergate began, and later when it became known that Nixon was wrongly involved? Was the tenor of Dems vs Repubs similar to today?

And then, what was it like after Nixon left? Were there still people who defended him? Did they stand by him for the next 3, 5, 10 years?

I ask because I want to know what to expect. Will my cousins, et al, eventually capitulate? Or will there forever be this chasm between us?

Thank you.
Anarchistbear
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There was more bi-partisanship in that era. There were also a lot of "smoking guns." Impeachment didn't happen because Nixon resigned, but it's likely he'd have been removed and his own party told him that- his pardon might have been part of that. He'd also lost the public.

At this point I don't think Trump is done by any stretch. Not clear yet what Mueller has. If it's the whole enchilada then after the midterms something will happen in the House but 2/3 in the Senate is still not a given and I don't see him resigning.

If otoh all Mueller has is "obstruction" - firing Comey- nothing will happen. If that's the case best to endure Trump for two years, further radicalize our politics remove him and start over in 2020.
blungld
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Anarchistbear said:

There was more bi-partisanship in that era. There were also a lot of "smoking guns." Impeachment didn't happen because Nixon resigned, but it's likely he'd have been removed and his own party told him that- his pardon might have been part of that. He'd also lost the public.

At this point I don't think Trump is done by any stretch. Not clear yet what Mueller has. If it's the whole enchilada then after the midterms something will happen in the House but 2/3 in the Senate is still not a given and I don't see him resigning.

If otoh all Mueller has is "obstruction" - firing Comey- nothing will happen. If that's the case best to endure Trump for two years, further radicalize our politics remove him and start over in 2020.
I disagree and I don't think it's wishful thinking. Most conclude that Trump's ego is such that he will do anything and everything to fight back--that he has no regard to the consequences of his actions so he will resort to mafia and dictatorial strongman tactics. I used to think that too. But now I think his ego will lead him to resign. If he quits he gets to play the victim card and stand on the sidelines and besmirch everything that happens afterwards--in some ways he would be MORE destructive to the country out of office.

The catch is that if he resigns he loses his pardon powers and can be easily indicted with things he and his team have to know he is both guilty of and that that there is evidence for that is in possession of Mueller. This may force him to stay in office and fight.

Unless he strikes some incredible deal (which is agreed on for the benefit of the country), he is going to be indicted one way or another. I pray the Dems don't go soft as they always do. This man and all his enablers and co-conspirators need to end up in jail There needs to be a no tolerance policy for this corruption and lying or it will just be repeated by the next demagogue. This has got to stop and the Dems better make real reforms and take real ethical stands rather than the easy way out of consolidating power and continuing corruption in their own terms. I think Constitutional amendments are in order.
Anarchistbear
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I don't agree he'll be indicted-at least not initially. Precedents are possible but in the past Presidents are immunized from this kind of action. Impeachment is the constitutional process. Mueller will issue a report and Congress will decide whether it rises to removal. There may be crimes cited that will result in indictment after removal but I think he'll be removed by impeachment or by election. I don't think he resigns unless he has a deal- that would be foolish in terms of his survival
bearister
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I think Pence should make a promise to pardon the entire tRump Crime Family in return for his resignation and then after he resigns pull a tRump and f him and say "What deal?"
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blungld
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bearister said:

I think Pence should make a promise to pardon the entire tRump Crime Family in return for his resignation and then after he resigns pull a tRump and f him and say "What deal?"
If they try and pull some BS pardon like that, I hope they go in for the kill for the laundering, RICO, and crimes at the state level. Jail.
Another Bear
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I think Pence goes down with Trump. He was Manafort's pick for VP, and that came off a Russkie deal. Pence is dirty as well.
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mikecohen
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concordtom said:

This morning, I have a clearer sense that Trump is going down. And it's for the exact reason I thought he was a disqualified candidate in Aug 2015: he's simply a horrible character who is incapable of properly leading the country.

Whether he resigns, is voted out, or is impeached on god knows which misconduct charges it doesn't matter. I think that history books will say that he was a bad President. And it is about that time when I will have the impulse to stick my finger in the eye of all those (e.g.: my cousins in Texas) who rode Trump's act all the way into the grave. I'll want to say, "see, I told you! How could you have been so stupid all these months and years not to see the truth about his character? How could you continue to support and defend him?!?!"

Yet, I know, that sort of behavior only makes people back up in defense of their previously held positions. Rather than sheepishly admitting they were ultimately wrong, folks tend to double down and counterattack. Instead of moving on, lessons learned, not only would my personal relationships be permanently injured but the national dialogue would transition into an attack of whomever comes next.

In this way, it would seem that Dems and Repubs would be doomed to a never ending eye for an eye battle of attrition. No healing, no unity, no resolution and moving on to bigger and better things.

THE EXTRAORDINARY IMBALANCE OF WEALTH AND POWER WHICH HAS OCCURRED SINCE REAGAN TO THE POINT OF EXTRAORDINARY CONCENTRATION OF IT NOW IN LESS THAN 1% OF THE POPULATION IS WHAT HAS THROWN OUR POLITICS INTO ITS CURRENT HOPELESS POLARITY. THE INTERESTS OF THAT TINY MINORITY ARE TOO MUCH SEEN BY THEM AS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE VAST MAJORITY, AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE MONEY HAS THE POWER TO CONTROL AND/OR SWAY THE OPINIONS OF ENOUGH PEOPLE TO WIN ELECTIONS WITH PEOPLE VOTING AGAINST THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS (HOLDING THEMSELVES DOWN) -- A DISCUSSION THE DETAILING OF WHICH COULD GO ON FOREVER

And so, my questions for older Bears, what was it like in '72 when watergate began, and later when it became known that Nixon was wrongly involved? Was the tenor of Dems vs Repubs similar to today?

ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN I THINK CAPTURES IT. WHEN IT STARTED (WHICH WAS BEFORE THE ELECTION) NOBODY THOUGHT MUCH OF IT; BUT AS WOODWARD/BERNSTEIN/&DEEP THROAT KEPT COMING UP WITH MORE AND MORE FACTS, RESPONSIBLE VOICES IN THE REST OF THE MEDIA AND REASONABLE PARTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY (EVEN INCLUDING GOLDWATER) MADE THE DIFFERENCE. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH REASONABLE PARTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY LEFT AT PRESENT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. MAYBE IF THE SITUATION DEVELOPS TO THE POINT THAT ACTUAL DESTRUCTION OF THAT PARTY LOOMS, THEN MAYBE . . . THERE ARE CERTAINLY A LOT OF REASONABLE REPUBLICAN VOICES ON MSNBC WHO ARE SCREAMING TO BE HEARD. THIS INCLUDES STEVE SCHMIDT WHO AT TIMES SOUNDS LIKE HE WOULD RECOMMEND A FIRING SQUAD, AND OUR GOLDEN BEARETTE NICOLE WALLACE WHOSE INTELLIGENCE AND CLARITY ARE TRULY SUPERIOR (WHICH I FIND HARD TO RECONCILE WITH HER PREVIOUS MEMBERSHIP IN THE PREVIOUSLY WORST PRESIDENCY IN HISTORY, W's, WHICH GAVE US MILLIONS OF PEOPLE NEEDLESSLY KILLED, MAIMED AND DISPLACED DUE TO IRAQ, AND SERIOUS LOSSES FOR US IN WASTED BLOOD AND TREASURE, WHILE TRUE SLIMEBALLS LIKE CHENEY STOVE-PIPED INFORMATION (MAJORLY LIED) TO JUSTIFY IRAQ, AND DIDN'T HESITATE TO OUT THE CIA OFFICER WHO WAS SUCCESSFULLY IMPLEMENTING NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFERATION. I DON'T THINK THE HYPER-POLARIZATION WILL CHANGE UNTIL THE EQUIVALENT OF OVER-RULING OF CITIZEN'S UNITED, BUT, WITH GORSUCH, IT LOOKS LIKE THAT CASE WILL HAVE THE CONTINUING POWER THAT PLESSY VS. FERGUSON DID TO CURSE US FOR ANOTHER 60 YEARS - ASSUMING IT DOES NOT DESTROY THE COUNTRY IN THE MEANWHILE

And then, what was it like after Nixon left? Were there still people who defended him? Did they stand by him for the next 3, 5, 10 years?

AFTER NIXON LEFT, WE GOT GERALD FORD, WHOM I PERSONALLY BELIEVE HAD ONE OF THE MOST BENIGN EFFECTS ON THE COUNTRY THAT I HAVE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED. PERHAPS HE WAS TOO GOOD OF A PERSON TO GET RE-ELECTED, AND HE PROBABLY DIDN'T SEE WHAT WAS BREWING IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. BUT, WHILE HE WAS THERE, HE DID SUCH GOOD, I THINK IT WAS INCALCULABLE --- I THINK NIXON WAS DISCREDITED TO THE DEGREE THAT, EVEN THE CRAZIEST REPUBLICANS CAN'T SUPPORT HIM -- ALTHOUGH I, PERSONALLY (ALTHOUGH I MOSTLY THINK BAD THINGS ABOUT HIM - WHICH THERE'S NOT SPACE HERE TO BEGIN) THINK THE BAD DEAL HE GOT HAD LESS TO DO WITH THE RELATIVELY MINOR LEAGUE WRONGDOING ASSOCIATED WITH WATERGATE THAN WITH THE BAD KARMA HE HAD BUILT UP OVER THE YEARS AGAINST WHAT WAS THEN STILL A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY THAT COULD REFLECT THE ACTUAL MAJORITY WHICH AGREES WITH THE DEMOCRATIC POLICIES WHILE MORE-AND-MORE HATING "LIBERALS"

I ask because I want to know what to expect. Will my cousins, et al, eventually capitulate? Or will there forever be this chasm between us?

IT WILL DEPEND ON THE DEGREE TO WHICH THE MONEY IMBALANCE DESCRIBED ABOVE CAN BE OVERCOME - NO SURE THING

Thank you.
mikecohen
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blungld said:

Anarchistbear said:

There was more bi-partisanship in that era. There were also a lot of "smoking guns." Impeachment didn't happen because Nixon resigned, but it's likely he'd have been removed and his own party told him that- his pardon might have been part of that. He'd also lost the public.

At this point I don't think Trump is done by any stretch. Not clear yet what Mueller has. If it's the whole enchilada then after the midterms something will happen in the House but 2/3 in the Senate is still not a given and I don't see him resigning.

If otoh all Mueller has is "obstruction" - firing Comey- nothing will happen. If that's the case best to endure Trump for two years, further radicalize our politics remove him and start over in 2020.
I disagree and I don't think it's wishful thinking. Most conclude that Trump's ego is such that he will do anything and everything to fight back--that he has no regard to the consequences of his actions so he will resort to mafia and dictatorial strongman tactics. I used to think that too. But now I think his ego will lead him to resign. If he quits he gets to play the victim card and stand on the sidelines and besmirch everything that happens afterwards--in some ways he would be MORE destructive to the country out of office.

The catch is that if he resigns he loses his pardon powers and can be easily indicted with things he and his team have to know he is both guilty of and that that there is evidence for that is in possession of Mueller. This may force him to stay in office and fight.

Unless he strikes some incredible deal (which is agreed on for the benefit of the country), he is going to be indicted one way or another. I pray the Dems don't go soft as they always do. This man and all his enablers and co-conspirators need to end up in jail There needs to be a no tolerance policy for this corruption and lying or it will just be repeated by the next demagogue. This has got to stop and the Dems better make real reforms and take real ethical stands rather than the easy way out of consolidating power and continuing corruption in their own terms. I think Constitutional amendments are in order.
Given the hyper-polarization and it being fed with endless supplies of money, I think the worst possibility of the defeat of that side could be some species of the Dolchstosslegende that so inspired the German people after WWI
bearister
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blungld said:

bearister said:

I think Pence should make a promise to pardon the entire tRump Crime Family in return for his resignation and then after he resigns pull a tRump and f him and say "What deal?"
If they try and pull some BS pardon like that, I hope they go in for the kill for the laundering, RICO, and crimes at the state level. Jail.

I am not going to bother to read it but apparently New York has a statute that says in effect that if you get a pardon under federal law that the State of New York will not prosecute you for "similar" crimes under state law because it is considered a form of double jeopardy. I believe the New York Attorney General is trying to get that law changed in anticipation of a few members of the tRump Crime Family about to pass through the system.
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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
concordtom
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blungld said:

Anarchistbear said:

There was more bi-partisanship in that era. There were also a lot of "smoking guns." Impeachment didn't happen because Nixon resigned, but it's likely he'd have been removed and his own party told him that- his pardon might have been part of that. He'd also lost the public.

At this point I don't think Trump is done by any stretch. Not clear yet what Mueller has. If it's the whole enchilada then after the midterms something will happen in the House but 2/3 in the Senate is still not a given and I don't see him resigning.

If otoh all Mueller has is "obstruction" - firing Comey- nothing will happen. If that's the case best to endure Trump for two years, further radicalize our politics remove him and start over in 2020.
I disagree and I don't think it's wishful thinking. Most conclude that Trump's ego is such that he will do anything and everything to fight back--that he has no regard to the consequences of his actions so he will resort to mafia and dictatorial strongman tactics. I used to think that too. But now I think his ego will lead him to resign. If he quits he gets to play the victim card and stand on the sidelines and besmirch everything that happens afterwards--in some ways he would be MORE destructive to the country out of office.

The catch is that if he resigns he loses his pardon powers and can be easily indicted with things he and his team have to know he is both guilty of and that that there is evidence for that is in possession of Mueller. This may force him to stay in office and fight.

Unless he strikes some incredible deal (which is agreed on for the benefit of the country), he is going to be indicted one way or another. I pray the Dems don't go soft as they always do. This man and all his enablers and co-conspirators need to end up in jail There needs to be a no tolerance policy for this corruption and lying or it will just be repeated by the next demagogue. This has got to stop and the Dems better make real reforms and take real ethical stands rather than the easy way out of consolidating power and continuing corruption in their own terms. I think Constitutional amendments are in order.
If he merely finishes his term(s) on schedule, last thing he'll do is pardon himself and everyone he knows. Just to be on the safe side!

What you are really hoping for is a heart attack.
(Me, too!)

Go, McDonald's, go !!
mikecohen
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concordtom said:

blungld said:

Anarchistbear said:

There was more bi-partisanship in that era. There were also a lot of "smoking guns." Impeachment didn't happen because Nixon resigned, but it's likely he'd have been removed and his own party told him that- his pardon might have been part of that. He'd also lost the public.

At this point I don't think Trump is done by any stretch. Not clear yet what Mueller has. If it's the whole enchilada then after the midterms something will happen in the House but 2/3 in the Senate is still not a given and I don't see him resigning.

If otoh all Mueller has is "obstruction" - firing Comey- nothing will happen. If that's the case best to endure Trump for two years, further radicalize our politics remove him and start over in 2020.
I disagree and I don't think it's wishful thinking. Most conclude that Trump's ego is such that he will do anything and everything to fight back--that he has no regard to the consequences of his actions so he will resort to mafia and dictatorial strongman tactics. I used to think that too. But now I think his ego will lead him to resign. If he quits he gets to play the victim card and stand on the sidelines and besmirch everything that happens afterwards--in some ways he would be MORE destructive to the country out of office.

The catch is that if he resigns he loses his pardon powers and can be easily indicted with things he and his team have to know he is both guilty of and that that there is evidence for that is in possession of Mueller. This may force him to stay in office and fight.

Unless he strikes some incredible deal (which is agreed on for the benefit of the country), he is going to be indicted one way or another. I pray the Dems don't go soft as they always do. This man and all his enablers and co-conspirators need to end up in jail There needs to be a no tolerance policy for this corruption and lying or it will just be repeated by the next demagogue. This has got to stop and the Dems better make real reforms and take real ethical stands rather than the easy way out of consolidating power and continuing corruption in their own terms. I think Constitutional amendments are in order.
If he merely finishes his term(s) on schedule, last thing he'll do is pardon himself and everyone he knows. Just to be on the safe side!

What you are really hoping for is a heart attack.
(Me, too!)

Go, McDonald's, go !!
Just to say it in this context too: The problem with the Democrats has been that, in order for them to get elected (both at the macro level, and at the lowest organizational level), they too need money, and must therefore do things many know are bad to get the money. I don't think this is the democratic institution of horse trading, because there's no trade-off. It's my way or the highway, which is why democrats have wound up taking some of the worst positions they know are bad, such as the repeal of Glass-Steagel (with its just horrible economic consequences).
blungld
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Which is why we need campaign finance reform first and foremost. You start there and you end up solving a lot of downstream problem.
mikecohen
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blungld said:

Which is why we need campaign finance reform first and foremost. You start there and you end up solving a lot of downstream problem.
Blocked by Citizens United. Signed: Capt. Obvious
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