Unit2Sucks said:

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GBear4Life said:

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The results of Hispanic performance in American society is not just underwhelming, it's alarming -- from culture to IQ to values: illiteracy rates, illigitimacy rates, HS graduation rates, crime rates -- all while out pacing the American birth rate 2x. . The goal of any civil society isn't to import the culture that produces these results, it's to deport them. At minimum it's to prevent it's proportion from increasing.

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You do understand that other people may have a different viewpoint on what "civil society" means right?

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You're implying that your definition is both more accurate and dictates a goal of one should be to "import poverty"?

Do you want America to be more like 3rd world Mexico? If you do, then cut the BS and just say open borders is better because Mexico > U.S. Because then we can actually address that rather than this.

America isn't your compassion playground. It has a fiduciary duty to American citizens. Your brand of compassion is simply a different version than mine -- I simply don't call it compassion. There is cost and benefits to most compassion, and yours is no different. You can't pretend that your is simply benefits everyone and costs nothing. You are picking winners (illegals and losers (American interest; working class; justice). Your 'compassion' is nothing more than 'warm prejudice'. This is not the premise of good public policy, not does it have the moral high ground.

I look forward to your treatise on the deportation of white trash.

Unit2Sucks said:

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I look forward to your treatise on the deportation of white trash.

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I wish. But they're American citizens. You get the difference I assume, or no? You get why the stupid and the poor citizens of a country are a priority problem over other country's stupid and poor I assume, or no? You get why your children are your responsibility that you can't escape for 18 years while my children are not your responsibility I assume, or no?

GBear4Life said:

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ducky23 said:

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I have volunteered time to help people apply for DACA. And while a small sample size, the kids I've helped have been some of the most intelligent, hardest working people I've ever met.

People are absolutely entitled to their opinions. But if you really care to know what these DACA recipients are actually like, I'd invite you to meet some. Hopefully, USCIS will once again start accepting initial DACA applications. And if that day ever comes, I personally invite you to come with me to help people apply for DACA. And after that, if you still believe these kids are underserving, so be it.

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Cute story. But anecdotal and wholly irrelevant.

I went to K-12 with mostly minorities. Some were black, and none of them were criminals. Good thing I don't assume blacks are less violent than whites based on my personal experiences. Nobody who rejects DACA is inherently making a claim about any one or subgroup of DACA individuals. It's not to demonize all the members that fall into that category.

These are obvious distinctions that don't need to be voiced unless there is a pretext of group identity politics being played. It's not about "deserve". I mean, don't ALL poor children deserve the kind of opportunity America potentially provides. That's literally neither here nor there.

The results of Hispanic performance in American society is not just underwhelming, it's alarming -- from culture to IQ to values: illiteracy rates, illigitimacy rates, HS graduation rates, crime rates -- all while out pacing the American birth rate 2x. . The goal of any civil society isn't to import the culture that produces these results, it's to deport them. At minimum it's to prevent it's proportion from increasing.

Again, there will invariably be many, many DACA recipients who will go on to become great economic and socio-cultural contributors.

What I'm rejecting is obvious: the conflict between a mealy-mouth de facto open border philosophy of acquiescing the importation of (illicit) 3rd world poverty while also proclaiming to be champions of the working under-class that consists largely of (legal) minorities. An example of how this plays out:

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This dynamic played out recently at a large bakery in Chicago that supplies buns to McDonald's. Some 800 immigrant laborers, most of them from Mexico, lost their jobs last year after an audit by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The Cloverhill Bakery, owned by Aryzta, a big Swiss food conglomerate, had to hire new workers, 80% to 90% of whom are African American. According to the Chicago Sun Times, the new workers are paid $14 per hour, or $4 per hour more than the (illegal) immigrant workers.

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DACA also gives hundreds and thousands of workers with the necessary documentation to compete with lower income positions held in many fields largely by legal African American and Hispanic American citizens.

There are certainly winners of illegal immigration -- cheap labor, lower wages for business owners, transferring and fueling profits and cheaper goods.

One one hand we clamor for higher minimum wages and admonish greedy corp for employing such cheap labor, then we actively promote or acquiesce the importation of millions of low wage laborers to compete with the already outstretched underclass.

There's no honest way to support both.

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I will just point out here that GBear criticized ducky for providing an anecdotal example and then supported his own point with an anecdotal example from one business in Chicago. Pot, kettle, etc.

I will also once again note that a full survey of all economic studies suggests that immigrants do not impact American workers' wages in any significant way.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs

https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/fall-2017/does-immigration-reduce-wages

golden sloth said:

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Honestly, I just don't care about immigration policy as it doesn't sufficiently impact life. The policies we've had before the Trump years was perfectly adequate and there was no reason to make a change from that. There are a ton of other issues I wish congress would prioritize over immigration.

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I know, it adversely impacts poor people and poor communities. Let them deal with it. And if it finds its way close to us, we'll just move. Good call.

GBear4Life said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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I look forward to your treatise on the deportation of white trash.

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I wish. But they're American citizens. You get the difference I assume, or no? You get why the stupid and the poor citizens of a country are a priority problem over other country's stupid and poor I assume, or no? You get why your children are your responsibility that you can't escape for 18 years while my children are not your responsibility I assume, or no?

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Do you know the difference between citizens and non-citizens? You certainly haven't demonstrated that knowledge in your barrage of inadequacy.

This may be a surprise to you as well but most Hispanics in America are citizens and believe it or not some are even American-born. Amazing what you might learn if you tried.

GBear4Life said:

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golden sloth said:

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Honestly, I just don't care about immigration policy as it doesn't sufficiently impact life. The policies we've had before the Trump years was perfectly adequate and there was no reason to make a change from that. There are a ton of other issues I wish congress would prioritize over immigration.

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I know, it adversely impacts poor people and poor communities.

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There is no evidence for this.

Unit2Sucks said:

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Do you know the difference between citizens and non-citizens?

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Yes. Do you?

sycasey said:

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GBear4Life said:

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golden sloth said:

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Honestly, I just don't care about immigration policy as it doesn't sufficiently impact life. The policies we've had before the Trump years was perfectly adequate and there was no reason to make a change from that. There are a ton of other issues I wish congress would prioritize over immigration.

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I know, it adversely impacts poor people and poor communities.

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There is no evidence for this.

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LOL where do you think poor immigrants are living? Beverly Hills? They're moving into poor neighborhoods. Do poor neighborhoods get better when it becomes less educated, poorer, and less assimilated. This is not how poor neighborhoods evolve into productive neighborhoods. You just read an example of hundreds losing out to security jobs. You know all of this because you're not stupid, but you will try your best to play both sides and pretend you reasonable got there because 'data'.

I do empathize, I do. If your Leftist peer group discovers you've taken a stand against one of these sworn identity groups (poor Americans; hispanic illegals) they are likely to disown you. Then you might have nobody to rec your posts on BI and nobody for positive affirmation of your views at the water cooler.

GBear4Life said:

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you will try your best to play both sides and pretend you reasonable got there because 'data'.

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I did.

Unit2Sucks said:

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GBear4Life said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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I look forward to your treatise on the deportation of white trash.

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I wish. But they're American citizens. You get the difference I assume, or no? You get why the stupid and the poor citizens of a country are a priority problem over other country's stupid and poor I assume, or no? You get why your children are your responsibility that you can't escape for 18 years while my children are not your responsibility I assume, or no?

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Do you know the difference between citizens and non-citizens? You certainly haven't demonstrated that knowledge in your barrage of inadequacy.

This may be a surprise to you as well but most Hispanics in America are citizens and believe it or not some are even American-born. Amazing what you might learn if you tried.

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Do you have any evidence indicating that GBear doesn't know most Hispanics in America are citizens or that he doesn't know some are American born? This is so contrary to what he actually says it reflects that you only gloss over what he writes.

oski003 said:

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Do you have any evidence indicating that GBear doesn't know most Hispanics in America are citizens or that he doesn't know some are American born? This is so contrary to what he actually says it reflects that you only gloss over what he writes.

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The evidence is his continued clumsy rhetoric. He has repeatedly made untrue statements (for example when he claimed it's a felony to cross the border) and failed to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration when making his arguments. He is advocating for the deportation of Hispanics and made no reference to citizenship. His statements are indefensible to anyone who hasn't been radicalized by the white wing.