When Elizabeth Warren Agreed With Betsy DeVos

6,756 Views | 57 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by B.A. Bearacus
Yogi14
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/02/opinion/elizabeth-warren-2020.html

The most important campaign news of the summer was Elizabeth Warren's surge. Early in the year, her campaign was foundering. She was in fifth place, with a mere 6 percent support.

Now she is rising toward the top, with former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders. She's drawing huge crowds 15,000 in Seattle recently. She has the highest favorability rating of any candidate. If you ask Democrats whom they would vote for if they didn't have to worry about electability, her support rises even more.

She's achieved all this not with some ephemeral debate moment gimmick, but by campaigning well and being relatable, substantive and, yes, likable. Domenico Montanaro of NPR reports that she has taken 45,000 selfies with voters. That's dedication.

She has also done one more thing. She has made sure that her policy views conform to progressive orthodoxy. This is an important transformation for Warren. When she emerged on the public stage she was a completely heterodox thinker, who deviated from the liberal mainstream with abandon.

Warren's breakthrough moment was a 2003 book called "The Two- Income Trap," which she wrote with her daughter, Amelia Warren Tyagi. That book centers on an astonishing statistic. In 1981, about 69,000 women filed for bankruptcy. By 1999 that figured had jumped to nearly 500,000. This was happening despite the fact that women's wages were rising rapidly.

The conventional view at the time was that Americans went bankrupt because they spent too much on fancy cars, vacations and baubles. Warren and Tyagi exploded that myth. Instead they pointed to something more paradoxical. The surge of women into the work force had made many women's economic situation worse.
Many women entered the labor force to give their family more financial security. But an ironic thing happened. All the new dual-income families started bidding up the price of housing in neighborhoods with good schools. They started bidding up the price of day care and college tuition. Two-income families found they had less economic security, not more. "Even as millions of mothers marched into the work force, savings declined," Warren and Tyagi wrote. This is the two-income trap. And the results were especially devastating for single-income families and single mothers who had to compete in the hyped-up, dual-earner world.

Warren did not argue that women should leave the labor force. Instead, she favored helping parents by providing them with school vouchers and school choice. "Fully funded vouchers would relieve parents from the terrible choice of leaving their kids in lousy schools or bankrupting themselves to escape those schools," Warren and Tyagi wrote.

"An all-voucher system would be a shock to the educational system, but the shakeout might be just what the system needs," they continued. This is exactly the argument that Education Secretary Betsy DeVos uses to support school choice.

Professor Warren also supported proposals to help families afford day care, but she opposed the approach that candidate Warren now advocates. Back then, she called taxpayer-funded day care a liberal "sacred cow": "Any subsidy that benefits working parents without providing a similar benefit to single-income families pushes the stay-at-home mother and her family further down the economic ladder."

Professor Warren supported ways to help make universities more affordable, but she opposed the sort of government subsidy proposals that candidate Warren now supports. "Are state governments supposed to write a blank check for higher education, allowing universities to increase costs with abandon?" she asked. "The more-taxes approach suffers from the same problem the more-debt approach engenders. It gives colleges more money to spend without any attempt to control their spiraling costs."

"The Two-Income Trap" is filled with interesting and heterodox proposals. Warren supported many progressive policy ideas and many conservative ones. She wanted to eliminate the tax on savings. She opposed more government regulations on housing, because such regulations reduce the incentive to build more housing.
In that book, she harshly criticized many Republicans. She also criticized the women's movement for being nave about economics, and she criticized Hillary Clinton for flip-flopping on important issues for the sake of political expediency.

There are two core tensions that make the book so fascinating. Warren and Tyagi are both working women and feminists. And yet they provide case after case in which stay-at-home moms provide an important safety net for their families. Warren and Tyagi want Americans to have children, but they provide case after case in which childbearing strains family finances and leads to bankruptcy and misery.

In 2016 Warren and Tyagi wrote a new introduction to their book. It's hard to believe this introduction was written by the same people. The 2003 book is intellectually unpredictable and alive. The new introduction is paint-by-numbers progressive boilerplate. The original book described a complex world in which people navigate trade-offs and unintended consequences often happen. The new introduction describes a comic book world, in which everything bad can be blamed on greedy bankers.

This is the problem with politics in a dogmatic age. Everything conforms to rigid ideology. Independent, evidence-based thinking? That goes out the window.
concordtom
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There's a big difference between them.
Warren is a decent person, while Devos is not (so says a professional I know who has worked with the Devos family on intergenerational wealth transfer issues).
Another Bear
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Professor Tiny Todger, you missed this RWNJ tweet. Com'n man...if you're going to troll, do a better job.
Another Bear
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Professor, what's with the singular Elizabeth Warren obsession...got a Russkie bug up your butt? In that case, say hello to the Koch bros and Mercers.

The right-wing smear campaign against Elizabeth Warren kicks into gear with a little help from the left
Cal Junkie
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Another Bear said:

Professor, what's with the singular Elizabeth Warren obsession...got a Russkie bug up your butt? In that case, say hello to the Koch bros and Mercers.

The right-wing smear campaign against Elizabeth Warren kicks into gear with a little help from the left
He's terrified of her.

Also - this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/09/24/new-cyberwarfare-report-unveils-russias-secret-weapon-against-us-2020-election/?fbclid=IwAR2MFc2R48GWgrpf1iM-fxPWhTKT7McKJ70i78OfCqzZAr2rPf1W5pK-9F8#657cdc3868f5
Another Bear
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Russkies!
sycasey
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Wait wait wait . . . so Warren might have changed her mind on something after 16 years? What a scandal!
Yogi14
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sycasey said:

Wait wait wait . . . so Warren might have changed her mind on something after 16 years? What a scandal!
That's one possible interpretation, but not the only one
Yogi14
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You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.
Another Bear
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.
Nyet comrade professor, nyet.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
That's nice.

As long as people continue to attribute RWNJ conspiracy theory mudslinging to me that I never posted, supported, or endorsed, I'm definitely not going to enter into any sort of "conversation" with you on the subject.

sycasey, maybe.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
Another Bear
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Professor, do you think Bernie continues his campaign now he's had a heart attack? Who do you support if Bernie is out?
Yogi14
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Cal Junkie said:

Another Bear said:

Professor, what's with the singular Elizabeth Warren obsession...got a Russkie bug up your butt? In that case, say hello to the Koch bros and Mercers.

The right-wing smear campaign against Elizabeth Warren kicks into gear with a little help from the left
He's terrified of her.

Also - this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/09/24/new-cyberwarfare-report-unveils-russias-secret-weapon-against-us-2020-election/?fbclid=IwAR2MFc2R48GWgrpf1iM-fxPWhTKT7McKJ70i78OfCqzZAr2rPf1W5pK-9F8#657cdc3868f5
Why would I be terrified of her?

And please explain how Russian cyber espionage relates here?
BearlyCareAnymore
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
That's nice.

As long as people continue to attribute RWNJ conspiracy theory mudslinging to me that I never posted, supported, or endorsed, I'm definitely not going to enter into any sort of "conversation" with you on the subject.

When did I do this?
BearlyCareAnymore
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?

Hey, you say you are innocent! You know who always claims to be innocent? Guilty people! Hmmmmm.
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
That's nice.

As long as people continue to attribute RWNJ conspiracy theory mudslinging to me that I never posted, supported, or endorsed, I'm definitely not going to enter into any sort of "conversation" with you on the subject.

When did I do this?
You didn't
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
sycasey
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
Who gets to decide whether or not they are relevant?
calbear93
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
For me, I don't like Warren solely because she and I happen to disagree on what is the best economic policy for America and her people. I would love to have her over for dinner and chat about her views on life. I think she is an honest leader with strong intellect. I think she is misguided, but true Americans can disagree.

I also think that people can change and evolve. She was a moderate (I would have liked her better then) who became disillusioned with capitalism when she lost herself in the weeds working on bankruptcy reform. I am not going to judge her or anyone else based on something they said 10 or 20 years ago.

I don't necessarily feel the same way about Sanders, unfortunately. I think he leans towards preaching more than practicing.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.


I'm being honest with you, not attempting to insult.

If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced. 2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
Yogi14
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sycasey said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
Who gets to decide whether or not they are relevant?
All facts are relevant. What one decides to do with them is their choice.
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:


If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced.
Do you have an example?
Quote:

2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
OK. Take the Democratic race for example. Biden, Sanders, and Warren are the leaders. Plenty of Biden and Sanders bashing from the media and social media is out there. Not hard to find. Is there some reason I need to add to that pile?

This article says a lot of similar things, among other observations of the race to date:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-a-problem-with-how-the-media-covers-elizabeth-warren/

As for what I've posted, it's all factual. I'm not making any unsupported claims like OaktownBear is a closet Tom Holmoe fan.
BearsWiin
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OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.


I'm being honest with you, not attempting to insult.

If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced. 2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
You're too nice
sycasey
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

sycasey said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
Who gets to decide whether or not they are relevant?
All facts are relevant. What one decides to do with them is their choice.

So then it's fine if I read it and decide the facts aren't that important to me?
BearlyCareAnymore
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sycasey said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

sycasey said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

You really are quite stupid to attribute things to me that I neither said or endorsed. It just makes you look weak.


They are attributed to you because you won't properly answer the question. So answer it. Why the singular fixation with criticizing Warren?

Until you answer that question everyone will ignore the merits of anything you post on the subject
.

As for the "merits" of anything I posted on the subject, there is no opinion being posted there. But it is fairly amusing to watch people in this forum respond to those articles in almost the exact same way that Trump supporters respond to articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law, and lack of ethics.

The one thing I'll give you is that Warren doesn't have any of those issues. To the best of my knowledge, she is a law abiding public official who behaves in an ethical manner and comports herself well in public.
So it is amusing to watch people defend Warren who you say is law abiding, ethical and comports herself well in public in the same manner Trump supporters defend Trump over articles about his poor behavior, refusal to follow the law and lack of ethics.

How is that the same thing?
When confronted with facts about their person, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend they either aren't true or irrelevant.
Who gets to decide whether or not they are relevant?
All facts are relevant. What one decides to do with them is their choice.

So then it's fine if I read it and decide the facts aren't that important to me?


Or that they aren't facts at all. Or they are half truths
BearlyCareAnymore
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Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:


If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced.
Do you have an example?
Quote:

2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
OK. Take the Democratic race for example. Biden, Sanders, and Warren are the leaders. Plenty of Biden and Sanders bashing from the media and social media is out there. Not hard to find. Is there some reason I need to add to that pile?

This article says a lot of similar things, among other observations of the race to date:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-a-problem-with-how-the-media-covers-elizabeth-warren/

As for what I've posted, it's all factual. I'm not making any unsupported claims like OaktownBear is a closet Tom Holmoe fan.
This article you posted is by a two-bit has been musician with absolutely zero journalistic credentials.

https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/90672/replies/1656491

As for being factual, you have mostly posted OPINION pieces. The piece by the musician is an opinion piece. The one you posted in this thread is an opinion piece. You are posting opinions and pawning them off as facts.
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:


If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced.
Do you have an example?
Quote:

2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
OK. Take the Democratic race for example. Biden, Sanders, and Warren are the leaders. Plenty of Biden and Sanders bashing from the media and social media is out there. Not hard to find. Is there some reason I need to add to that pile?

This article says a lot of similar things, among other observations of the race to date:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-a-problem-with-how-the-media-covers-elizabeth-warren/

As for what I've posted, it's all factual. I'm not making any unsupported claims like OaktownBear is a closet Tom Holmoe fan.
This article you posted is by a two-bit has been musician with absolutely zero journalistic credentials.

https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/90672/replies/1656491

As for being factual, you have mostly posted OPINION pieces. The piece by the musician is an opinion piece. The one you posted in this thread is an opinion piece. You are posting opinions and pawning them off as facts.
Ha! I'd completely forgotten about that article. I like that one. Quite a bit of opinion in that one, I will freely admit.

As for the rest of your points, you can try to obfuscate to your heart's content, but the facts are that Warren was a registered Republican until 1996, that she supported school vouchers, that the only time she has ever eschewed big money and corporate donations is for this year's Democratic primary (and that she will accept them if she wins the nomination) and most importantly that she has been working Democratic big monied interests to assure them that she's not looking to upset the apple cart the way that Sanders is even as she positions herself constantly as being just like him to appeal to progressive voters.

Essentially, she's telling the big money of the Democratic Party that she can be their Hillary when they need her to be. And I'm sure that's fine for all of you Hillary hoes who still blame her loss on Sanders supporters not voting for her rather than yourselves for supporting the wrong candidate. I voted for Hillary because much as I don't think she has ever cared one iota about the plight of the working class or minorities or anyone who doesn't have a lot of money to donate to her, she was never ever ever ever going to be even 5% of the destructive force that Trump is and that should have been obvious to every registered voter with two functioning brain cells to rub together. That so many people either talked themselves into believing he was the lesser of two evils or that she was ever capable of being evil anywhere on the scale that Trump is will always be a stain on them that they can never rub off. The only good thing about the whole mess that it's thrown this country in is that it once and for all finally put the nail in the coffin of Hillary's presidential aspirations and made it possible for people who actually want to make significant changes to this country to be considered for the presidency..

That so many people, including yourself, are still looking for your replacement Hillary amuses me. It's not at all like all the uninspiring establishment Republicans that tried to run for President four years ago and got soundly rejected by the Republican voter base. People have had enough. And if enough change doesn't come over the next four years, then someone even further from the middle will get their try. All the blood that could be squeezed from the turnip of the American middle and lower class has been squeezed and people are not going to stand for it anymore.
dajo9
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Professor, I think it's fine you prefer Sanders over Warren. I disagree. I as also remember the concept of school vouchers being very different in 2003. Back then, it didn't have to become the corrupted privatize and get rich scheme people like Betsy Devos have made it it today.

I would vote for Sanders over Trump. Will you vote for Warren over Trump?
BearlyCareAnymore
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ElProfessor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:


If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced.
Do you have an example?
Quote:

2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
OK. Take the Democratic race for example. Biden, Sanders, and Warren are the leaders. Plenty of Biden and Sanders bashing from the media and social media is out there. Not hard to find. Is there some reason I need to add to that pile?

This article says a lot of similar things, among other observations of the race to date:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-a-problem-with-how-the-media-covers-elizabeth-warren/

As for what I've posted, it's all factual. I'm not making any unsupported claims like OaktownBear is a closet Tom Holmoe fan.
This article you posted is by a two-bit has been musician with absolutely zero journalistic credentials.

https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/90672/replies/1656491

As for being factual, you have mostly posted OPINION pieces. The piece by the musician is an opinion piece. The one you posted in this thread is an opinion piece. You are posting opinions and pawning them off as facts.
Ha! I'd completely forgotten about that article. I like that one. Quite a bit of opinion in that one, I will freely admit.

As for the rest of your points, you can try to obfuscate to your heart's content, but the facts are that Warren was a registered Republican until 1996, that she supported school vouchers, that the only time she has ever eschewed big money and corporate donations is for this year's Democratic primary (and that she will accept them if she wins the nomination) and most importantly that she has been working Democratic big monied interests to assure them that she's not looking to upset the apple cart the way that Sanders is even as she positions herself constantly as being just like him to appeal to progressive voters.

Essentially, she's telling the big money of the Democratic Party that she can be their Hillary when they need her to be. And I'm sure that's fine for all of you Hillary hoes who still blame her loss on Sanders supporters not voting for her rather than yourselves for supporting the wrong candidate. I voted for Hillary because much as I don't think she has ever cared one iota about the plight of the working class or minorities or anyone who doesn't have a lot of money to donate to her, she was never ever ever ever going to be even 5% of the destructive force that Trump is and that should have been obvious to every registered voter with two functioning brain cells to rub together. That so many people either talked themselves into believing he was the lesser of two evils or that she was ever capable of being evil anywhere on the scale that Trump is will always be a stain on them that they can never rub off. The only good thing about the whole mess that it's thrown this country in is that it once and for all finally put the nail in the coffin of Hillary's presidential aspirations and made it possible for people who actually want to make significant changes to this country to be considered for the presidency..

That so many people, including yourself, are still looking for your replacement Hillary amuses me. It's not at all like all the uninspiring establishment Republicans that tried to run for President four years ago and got soundly rejected by the Republican voter base. People have had enough. And if enough change doesn't come over the next four years, then someone even further from the middle will get their try. All the blood that could be squeezed from the turnip of the American middle and lower class has been squeezed and people are not going to stand for it anymore.
Warren is not remotely Hillary. I view you drawing this comparison as strong evidence that you ARE in fact a troll because trying to turn Warren into Hillary has been job 1 of the Republicans. It is strange to me that when you pull off all of the clich liberal speak, your points return again and again to points about Warren that Republicans are trying to make.

I'm not looking for my replacement Hillary. I don't like Hillary. It might be true that I'm looking for my replacement Obama.

I campaigned and voted for Jackson over Dukakis. I voted for Jerry Brown over Bill Clinton. I was very early in support of Obama and contributed a lot to his campaign (I realize you probably think he is some corporate hack but he was clearly the liberal option in the primary). My liberal views have been on this board have been clear for years, though I will depart from liberals when they are being morons like being against vaccinations. You can stop trying to portray everyone who doesn't like Bernie as a corporate moderate. You "quest" for ideological purity just divides the Democratic party. Which I'm starting to think is your goal because you seem too smart to be this stupid. I love my Democratic brethren of all political view. I will not be divided by your pathetic attempts.

I like Bernie. Love him in the senate. Love him on talk radio and the cable news shows. I think he'd be a bad president. He is an idea guy. He is a fighter. I see no evidence that he can run or manage anything. I think a Bernie presidency could be very damaging to the liberal cause.

Meanwhile you maintain a faade of having a love affair with a 78 year old candidate coming off a heart attack whose polls have stagnated for months. He has zero chance of winning the nomination. Basically, right when it became clear that he had no prayer, you started using him as a liberal human shield to obsessively attack by far the most liberal candidate that has a chance of winning. You are stepping up your game now bringing in the insults and the nicknames "Hillary Hoes" - a nickname I have trouble seeing coming from a genuine liberal.

I think you are fraud, putting on a Bernie shirt and walking into another candidate's rally and throwing urine balloons hoping to start a fight between the two camps. And then turning to the moderate camp and insulting them too hoping to open up old wounds. It's bullshyte.

Bernie has made it clear he loves Warren. He'll endorse her the minute he gets out of the race.

Your "facts" are inconsequential and trumped up try and make them mean a million times more than they mean. Your conclusions deserve less than zero consideration or debate.

I'll use "facts" in a similar fashion.

Fact: Professor Turgeson Bear doesn't support Elizabeth Warren

Fact: David Duke doesn't support Elizabeth Warren

Conclusion: Today is the day Professor Turgeson Bear agreed with David Duke.

I wonder if this is the first day that has happened or just the latest in a string of thousands of days where that has happened.
BearlyCareAnymore
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dajo9 said:

Professor, I think it's fine you prefer Sanders over Warren. I disagree. I as also remember the concept of school vouchers being very different in 2003. Back then, it didn't have to become the corrupted privatize and get rich scheme people like Betsy Devos have made it it today.

I would vote for Sanders over Trump. Will you vote for Warren over Trump?
He won't vote for Sanders over Trump. Or Biden or Warren or Harris or Pete or Beto or etc.
Yogi14
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dajo9 said:

Professor, I think it's fine you prefer Sanders over Warren. I disagree. I as also remember the concept of school vouchers being very different in 2003. Back then, it didn't have to become the corrupted privatize and get rich scheme people like Betsy Devos have made it it today.

I would vote for Sanders over Trump. Will you vote for Warren over Trump?
Of course.

As for Sanders, his age was already a big issue and the heart attack makes it that much worse. I wish all 3 leading candidates for the Democratic nomination were a lot younger.
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

ElProfessor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:

Professor Turgeson Bear said:

OaktownBear said:


If someone else posted the article I might read it. I'm specifically not reading it because I don't trust what you are posting. I have two reasons for this. 1. IMO, you have in the past posted articles as fact that were very questionably sourced.
Do you have an example?
Quote:

2. You have barely posted anything against somebody else or even FOR somebody else. You by and large post intensely negative articles about one candidate. When I see that on any issue I know I'm going to get at best half the story even if the person means well. I'm not going to engage you in the facts because what you are doing is a tactic. If I post a claim that you are a wife beater, even if you are defending yourself, the longer we talk about it, the more I win. I feel every one of your attacks have been unjustified. I think most people agree. And honestly you have virtually begged people to argue with you, again demonstrating what you want. So the response has been to let the argument whither and die.
OK. Take the Democratic race for example. Biden, Sanders, and Warren are the leaders. Plenty of Biden and Sanders bashing from the media and social media is out there. Not hard to find. Is there some reason I need to add to that pile?

This article says a lot of similar things, among other observations of the race to date:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-there-a-problem-with-how-the-media-covers-elizabeth-warren/

As for what I've posted, it's all factual. I'm not making any unsupported claims like OaktownBear is a closet Tom Holmoe fan.
This article you posted is by a two-bit has been musician with absolutely zero journalistic credentials.

https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/90672/replies/1656491

As for being factual, you have mostly posted OPINION pieces. The piece by the musician is an opinion piece. The one you posted in this thread is an opinion piece. You are posting opinions and pawning them off as facts.
Ha! I'd completely forgotten about that article. I like that one. Quite a bit of opinion in that one, I will freely admit.

As for the rest of your points, you can try to obfuscate to your heart's content, but the facts are that Warren was a registered Republican until 1996, that she supported school vouchers, that the only time she has ever eschewed big money and corporate donations is for this year's Democratic primary (and that she will accept them if she wins the nomination) and most importantly that she has been working Democratic big monied interests to assure them that she's not looking to upset the apple cart the way that Sanders is even as she positions herself constantly as being just like him to appeal to progressive voters.

Essentially, she's telling the big money of the Democratic Party that she can be their Hillary when they need her to be. And I'm sure that's fine for all of you Hillary hoes who still blame her loss on Sanders supporters not voting for her rather than yourselves for supporting the wrong candidate. I voted for Hillary because much as I don't think she has ever cared one iota about the plight of the working class or minorities or anyone who doesn't have a lot of money to donate to her, she was never ever ever ever going to be even 5% of the destructive force that Trump is and that should have been obvious to every registered voter with two functioning brain cells to rub together. That so many people either talked themselves into believing he was the lesser of two evils or that she was ever capable of being evil anywhere on the scale that Trump is will always be a stain on them that they can never rub off. The only good thing about the whole mess that it's thrown this country in is that it once and for all finally put the nail in the coffin of Hillary's presidential aspirations and made it possible for people who actually want to make significant changes to this country to be considered for the presidency..

That so many people, including yourself, are still looking for your replacement Hillary amuses me. It's not at all like all the uninspiring establishment Republicans that tried to run for President four years ago and got soundly rejected by the Republican voter base. People have had enough. And if enough change doesn't come over the next four years, then someone even further from the middle will get their try. All the blood that could be squeezed from the turnip of the American middle and lower class has been squeezed and people are not going to stand for it anymore.
Warren is not remotely Hillary. I view you drawing this comparison as strong evidence that you ARE in fact a troll because trying to turn Warren into Hillary has been job 1 of the Republicans. It is strange to me that when you pull off all of the clich liberal speak, your points return again and again to points about Warren that Republicans are trying to make.
In total? No, she's not Hillary. Right now, my estimation of her is she's trying to be all things to all people. But do people out there want another Hillary? Oh yeah, a lot of bitter Hillary hoes are looking for their new and improved Hillary.

As for Republicans trying to turn her into Hillary, I don't think so. I think they are focused much more on bringing down Biden and haven't really focused much on Warren yet. To the extent that they have paid attention to her, I think they're just throwing a few things out there and seeing if anything sticks.
Quote:

Meanwhile you maintain a faade of having a love affair with a 78 year old candidate coming off a heart attack whose polls have stagnated for months. He has zero chance of winning the nomination.
I agree. Aside from the heart attack and the fact that his numbers have hardly changed at all in months, I think there are so many bitter Hillary hoes out there that would only vote for him if it was him or Trump that he has no chance of ever growing his support. There's a defined number of devoted Sanders supporters out there and many of the Warren supporters would probably come to him if for some reason she dropped out (which barring some unexpected scandal I can't see happening), but if for some reason Biden and Warren went away, I think those voters would simply find someone like Harris or Booker to support. They'll never flip to Sanders.
Quote:

Basically, right when it became clear that he had no prayer, you started using him as a liberal human shield to obsessively attack by far the most liberal candidate that has a chance of winning. You are stepping up your game now bringing in the insults and the nicknames "Hillary Hoes" - a nickname I have trouble seeing coming from a genuine liberal.
What in the world makes you think I am a genuine liberal? I never said I was one.

As for calling people Hillary hoes, when they stop using the stupid Bernie bro name, I'll stop calling them Hillary hoes.
Quote:

I think you are fraud, putting on a Bernie shirt and walking into another candidate's rally and throwing urine balloons hoping to start a fight between the two camps. And then turning to the moderate camp and insulting them too hoping to open up old wounds. It's bullshyte.
That's nice. But I'm not at all concerned about what you think of me.

Quote:

Bernie has made it clear he loves Warren. He'll endorse her the minute he gets out of the race.
Yes, he will. But he has enough money that he's not likely to leave it anytime soon, even if he stays consistently in third place or lower.
Quote:

Your "facts" are inconsequential and trumped up try and make them mean a million times more than they mean. Your conclusions deserve less than zero consideration or debate.

I'll use "facts" in a similar fashion.

Fact: Professor Turgeson Bear doesn't support Elizabeth Warren

Fact: David Duke doesn't support Elizabeth Warren

Conclusion: Today is the day Professor Turgeson Bear agreed with David Duke.

I wonder if this is the first day that has happened or just the latest in a string of thousands of days where that has happened.
LOL. I hate this word, but given that I've never seen you make so many typos and other errors in your writing, you seem pretty triggered.
sycasey
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I'm not sure why you assume anyone here is looking for a "replacement Hillary." AFAIK, no one here has talked about being a big Hillary Clinton fan. If anything, that's a talking point usually used by the more conservative types on this board, trying to troll the liberals about her loss.

Elizabeth Warren's platform is significantly more progressive than Hillary's, is it not? What makes you think she is the same?
Yogi14
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OaktownBear said:

dajo9 said:

Professor, I think it's fine you prefer Sanders over Warren. I disagree. I as also remember the concept of school vouchers being very different in 2003. Back then, it didn't have to become the corrupted privatize and get rich scheme people like Betsy Devos have made it it today.

I would vote for Sanders over Trump. Will you vote for Warren over Trump?
He won't vote for Sanders over Trump. Or Biden or Warren or Harris or Pete or Beto or etc.
LOL. Trying to make into a Trump supporter just because you don't understand me is fairly amusing. I'm sorry I upset you so.
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