I'm assuming that 75% of players and staff will end up getting it, because I think it is so contagious and impractical to otherwise avoid. If you quarantine one person, what about the several others he likely infected before testing positive? And how do you play if key starters get quarantined? I think that would be too difficult to pull off. The Roosevelt and Kidd "ended their seasons". I'm assuming you don't do that and the season plays. Antibody tests are educated guesses, the Navy's tests were on everyone, 1 death per 1100 mostly younger healthy people. This is kind of a rough estimate but if there are 100 people per program (players + trainers) * 12 schools in the Pac-12, I don't think one person dead per program per season is an unreasonable estimate... I think it is more likely 0 players will die, I think one death has a good chance of occurring, plus a staff member, per season, over the conference. And probably several will be hospitalized.ColoradoBear said:Creeping Incrementalism said:
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
That's way, way, way too high of an estimate for deaths due to playing college football.
Right now the CDC has 42 deaths listed for 15-24 year olds (through May 2). Out of a total of 38000 confirmed US deaths. That's 1 in 904.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
The NY antibody study from a few weeks ago suggested a death rate of 0.6-0.8% of those infected. Call that .7% or 1 in 142. That's all ages, so if the CDC age breakdown holds across the entire country, that's a 1 in 128000 chance of death for those in the 15-24 age range. Total number of fbs players is what, 10k? So that would be one death across FBS every 13 years. And that's assuming every player actually contracts Covid while playing football.
Cal Football Unlikely
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Last: 5 yr ago by philbert
You have a strangely menacing, hostile tone here ("admit your underlying intent" & "quarantine... figuratively" ?), but I will answer your question since I didn't explicitly say my underlying intent and it may not be what you think.Rushinbear said:There will be football this year with actions taken to minimize risk. When we have it, we trust that you will be back to admit your underlying intent.Creeping Incrementalism said:Cave Bear said:Care to share this data? The official DOD numbers for active military personnel say just 2 deaths so far from 5171 cases. And of course as with all Covid case totals, the number of actual cases is likely to be significantly higher than the confirmed case count.Creeping Incrementalism said:Quote:
It is actions that help slow the spread and can eliminate it. Trying to achieve "herd immunity" without a vaccine is crazy.
Another fact to consider is that based on the data from US Navy ships I have seen, of healthy mostly younger working age people, around 1 in 1000 infected men will die from this. So that is any one person's individual odds when they ask themselves if they are willing to risk this. And multiply that out for the total number of deaths.
https://www.airforcemag.com/snapshot-dod-and-covid-19/
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
If there any infections, or God forbid, deaths, we trust that you will be back to demonstrate that they will have been as a direct result of the virus and not some presumption.
In the meantime, we trust that you will quarantine yourself in your home, literally and figuratively.
My point is if you play football, then accept either choice A) people accept the risk of this coronavirus and that most people will be infected and there will be some deaths -- or choice B) -- give up these stupid attempts to get by without getting sick. You can't train and play football or any contact sport without it becoming a bizarre charade of players and staff being unexpectedly quarantined. Realistically, how do you manage that? Will the controversies of the season be that the star quarterback was infected and showed no symptoms, so the coaches let him play anyway, and it was only discovered after the fact? Or will we have a bizarre constant rotation of 3rd string players based on who gets sick? And how can you say college students get be in close personal contact if they are athletes, but not if they are there to get an education and a forced attend class via Zoom lectures?
Awwww, I'm just getting cranky (some would say "getting?"). I'm tired of people endlessly spinning these contrived (yeah, I said it) scenarios and concluding with speculation about the 14 possible outcomes, all of which somehow result in bad things happening.Creeping Incrementalism said:You have a strangely menacing, hostile tone here ("admit your underlying intent" & "quarantine... figuratively" ?), but I will answer your question since I didn't explicitly say my underlying intent and it may not be what you think.Rushinbear said:There will be football this year with actions taken to minimize risk. When we have it, we trust that you will be back to admit your underlying intent.Creeping Incrementalism said:Cave Bear said:Care to share this data? The official DOD numbers for active military personnel say just 2 deaths so far from 5171 cases. And of course as with all Covid case totals, the number of actual cases is likely to be significantly higher than the confirmed case count.Creeping Incrementalism said:Quote:
It is actions that help slow the spread and can eliminate it. Trying to achieve "herd immunity" without a vaccine is crazy.
Another fact to consider is that based on the data from US Navy ships I have seen, of healthy mostly younger working age people, around 1 in 1000 infected men will die from this. So that is any one person's individual odds when they ask themselves if they are willing to risk this. And multiply that out for the total number of deaths.
https://www.airforcemag.com/snapshot-dod-and-covid-19/
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
If there any infections, or God forbid, deaths, we trust that you will be back to demonstrate that they will have been as a direct result of the virus and not some presumption.
In the meantime, we trust that you will quarantine yourself in your home, literally and figuratively.
My point is if you play football, then accept either choice A) people accept the risk of this coronavirus and that most people will be infected and there will be some deaths -- or choice B) -- give up these stupid attempts to get by without getting sick. You can't train and play football or any contact sport without it becoming a bizarre charade of players and staff being unexpectedly quarantined. Realistically, how do you manage that? Will the controversies of the season be that the star quarterback was infected and showed no symptoms, so the coaches let him play anyway, and it was only discovered after the fact? Or will we have a bizarre constant rotation of 3rd string players based on who gets sick? And how can you say college students get be in close personal contact if they are athletes, but not if they are there to get an education and a forced attend class via Zoom lectures?
We used to have a saying in the Navy, "Measure with a micrometer, mark with a crayon and cut with an ax." My saying is, "Ready, fire, aim." You can't begin to anticipate future conditions in a complex system of humanity and the physical world. So, make your best guess with what you're sure of, get on with it and manage the consequences as you go. If you're sure of your data, start with that, but don't be surprised if the data weren't so stable as you thought. Otherwise, you could become a victim of Paralysis by Analysis.
Of course, this way of thinking would make irrelevant (or worse) the social sciences. I know, it's anti-intellectual...in a sea of intellect.
War Games..Creeping Incrementalism said:
> I'm assuming that 75% of players and staff will end up getting it, because I think it is so contagious and impractical to otherwise avoid.
Stephen Falken : Exactly. There's no way to win. The game itself is pointless! But back at the war room, they believe you can win a nuclear war. That there can be "acceptable losses."
muting more than 300 handles, turnaround is fair play
smh said:War Games..Creeping Incrementalism said:
> I'm assuming that 75% of players and staff will end up getting it, because I think it is so contagious and impractical to otherwise avoid.Stephen Falken : Did you ever play tic-tac-toe?Jennifer : Yeah, of course.Stephen Falken : But you don't anymore.Jennifer : No.Stephen Falken : Why?Jennifer : Because it's a boring game. It's always a tie.
Stephen Falken : Exactly. There's no way to win. The game itself is pointless! But back at the war room, they believe you can win a nuclear war. That there can be "acceptable losses."
On this thread I am hearing lots and lots of estimates, projections, best guesses, shots in the dark, ball park figures, Etc. (It is difficult to call it "reliable data".) Be that as it may, those comments/ arguments focus on how healthy 19-22 year old males will survive in the current pandemic.
I am not hearing any strong arguments for
allowing fans at the games. To me that is where the major risks are - large congregations of not-so-healthy people well beyond 19-22 years old. NYC in microcosm. And each of those fans goes home and shares any infections with family and friends.
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
It is not. It is their decision. I am sure if they don't want to they can sit out. I am sure 99.99% want to play.Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision. I
I could say the same thing about seasonal flu. The 75% number comes out of thin air. If you need some humor in your day, read all the studies that have come-out from every university trying to get its brand out, how different the predictions are about numbers of infected. We don't know, but with several states eliminating restrictions, there will have a better idea in June when decisions are made based on the experience of these states (at least by the Pac in June, since it seems the SEC and Big 12 said they are playing no matter what).Creeping Incrementalism said:This is kind of a rough estimate but if there are 100 people per program (players + trainers) * 12 schools in the Pac-12, I don't think one person dead per program per season is an unreasonable estimate... I think it is more likely 0 players will die, I think one death has a good chance of occurring, plus a staff member, per season, over the conference. And probably several will be hospitalized.ColoradoBear said:Creeping Incrementalism said:
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
That's way, way, way too high of an estimate for deaths due to playing college football.
Right now the CDC has 42 deaths listed for 15-24 year olds (through May 2). Out of a total of 38000 confirmed US deaths. That's 1 in 904.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
The NY antibody study from a few weeks ago suggested a death rate of 0.6-0.8% of those infected. Call that .7% or 1 in 142. That's all ages, so if the CDC age breakdown holds across the entire country, that's a 1 in 128000 chance of death for those in the 15-24 age range. Total number of fbs players is what, 10k? So that would be one death across FBS every 13 years. And that's assuming every player actually contracts Covid while playing football.
Players all want to play, as do coaches. Making it their decision is not the way to go. The more experienced adults in the room have to make a decision that it is reasonably safe. And it is broader then even that. There has to be a decision on the campus side as well. No school means no football..Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Assuming fans are allowed, it is your decision if you want to take the risk to attend games. Like I said in another post, with some states dropping all restrictions, we will have a better idea what are the risks by June when decisions about school and football are scheduled to be made by Cal and many Pac schools. Stay safe my friend.
wifeisafurd said:Players all want to play, as do coaches. Making it their decision is not the way to go. The more experienced adults in the room have to make a decision that it is reasonably safe. And it is broader then even that. There has to be a decision on the campus side as well. No school means no football..Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Assuming fans are allowed, it is your decision if you want to take the risk to attend games. Like I said in another post, with some states dropping all restrictions, we will have a better idea what are the risks by June when decisions about school and football are scheduled to be made by Cal and many Pac schools. Stay safe my friend.
Yes, to be clear, a lot of people have to give the go ahead before players can run through the tunnel. My point is that we as fans should not be demanding anyone risk their health for our entertainment.
GivemTheAxe said:smh said:War Games..Creeping Incrementalism said:
> I'm assuming that 75% of players and staff will end up getting it, because I think it is so contagious and impractical to otherwise avoid.Stephen Falken : Did you ever play tic-tac-toe?Jennifer : Yeah, of course.Stephen Falken : But you don't anymore.Jennifer : No.Stephen Falken : Why?Jennifer : Because it's a boring game. It's always a tie.
Stephen Falken : Exactly. There's no way to win. The game itself is pointless! But back at the war room, they believe you can win a nuclear war. That there can be "acceptable losses."
On this thread I am hearing lots and lots of estimates, projections, best guesses, shots in the dark, ball park figures, Etc. (It is difficult to call it "reliable data".) Be that as it may, those comments/ arguments focus on how healthy 19-22 year old males will survive in the current pandemic.
I am not hearing any strong arguments for
allowing fans at the games. To me that is where the major risks are - large congregations of not-so-healthy people well beyond 19-22 years old. NYC in microcosm. And each of those fans goes home and shares any infections with family and friends.
Agreed. If they allow fans in the stands, the risk of death among the players pales in comparison to the risk among the fans and those they spread the virus to.
Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Roman gladiators are an ironic analogy since almost none of them had any choice in playing the sport. And almost none survived into old age.
Hence their salutation to the audience: "Those who are about to die salute you!"
Well, on second thought, maybe it is an appropriate analogy.
Not necessarily...wifeisafurd said:Players all want to play, as do coaches. Making it their decision is not the way to go. The more experienced adults in the room have to make a decision that it is reasonably safe. And it is broader then even that. There has to be a decision on the campus side as well. No school means no football..Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Assuming fans are allowed, it is your decision if you want to take the risk to attend games. Like I said in another post, with some states dropping all restrictions, we will have a better idea what are the risks by June when decisions about school and football are scheduled to be made by Cal and many Pac schools. Stay safe my friend.
Even if we think we are in the clear by June/July, the virus could make a "comeback" in the fall. This not a linear situation. Until there is a vaccine, it is something that could be off and on for years to come....
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
With an admitted strong bias toward fiscal conservatism and moderation in most else, I cannot abide by using the control of voting to be used to keep "legitimate" voters from voting. My worry is that those who are not legitimate voters (or the ballots thereof) get counted as well. I hope you can understand that someone can believe that all those who are eligible should be able to vote should they choose, but at the same time want to may sure that there is a legitimacy to "every" vote. So on the one side I sit with the Dems on this, but then on the other with the Repubs. And that GiveemtheAxe is why I abhor political parties and their control of the process. Throw in a Moderate political party and most of this anger would subside as common sense floats to the top.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Actually, it is the federal government that has shown its hand. In cribbage, it is known as an Alameda straight. A total bust. Had the government been fully prepared for an event like this, we would be well on our way to a reasonably safe recovery. As it is we have been left with no plan, no thoughtful actions, nothing but chaos, reeling from one crazy idea to the next.6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
Science is the determining factor. Science is the only way out of this mess. I lean heavily towards the plan detailed in the article I included in another post. Testing and contact tracing is the only solution. Keep things closed until the Ro factor is safely under 1.0 for a period of time, then begin to reopen enforcing mask wearing and social distancing. It is not magic. It is science.
If you what an economy that reopens prematurely and thus sputters along because we are not taking the right steps to address the root problem, go for it but you are making a foolish mistake. Instead, I advocate opening the economy when it is safe to do so, then it will make a robust return.
It isn't politics. It is science.
Apparently the democrats are in cahoots with virtually every first world country (other than Sweden). I'm not aware of any other first world country who is planning to let COVID spread widely throughout society.
Perhaps the answer is that everyone who is trying to prevent the spread of this disease is going to be proven wrong for any number of reasons, but none of those are based on presently known or well understood science.
When you look at all of the countries with the worst outbreaks (Spain, Italy, France, UK, US) - all of them other than the US have cut their daily infection rate and daily death rates by 2/3, 3/4 or more. We have only managed to cut daily infections and deaths by perhaps 1/3 from peak.
COVID didn't have to become an election issue. There are republican governors across the country who acted in concert with democrats (Hogan, Baker, DeWine) and we had the makings of a coordinated bipartisan response.
Perhaps the answer is that everyone who is trying to prevent the spread of this disease is going to be proven wrong for any number of reasons, but none of those are based on presently known or well understood science.
When you look at all of the countries with the worst outbreaks (Spain, Italy, France, UK, US) - all of them other than the US have cut their daily infection rate and daily death rates by 2/3, 3/4 or more. We have only managed to cut daily infections and deaths by perhaps 1/3 from peak.
COVID didn't have to become an election issue. There are republican governors across the country who acted in concert with democrats (Hogan, Baker, DeWine) and we had the makings of a coordinated bipartisan response.
Just wondering. How long would you be willing to live this way if your livelihood had been destroyed by the Shelter in Place policy. It is much easier to say let science work, when you are either still employed or retired. I personally can weather this for much longer than most with a minimal chance I lose my home, my life savings etc. But this is no way to live IMO.71Bear said:Actually, it is the federal government that has shown its hand. In cribbage, it is known as an Alameda straight. A total bust. Had the government been fully prepared for an event like this, we would be well on our way to a reasonably safe recovery. As it is we have been left with no plan, no thoughtful actions, nothing but chaos, reeling from one crazy idea to the next.6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
Science is the determining factor. Science is the only way out of this mess. I lean heavily towards the plan detailed in the article I included in another post. Testing and contact tracing is the only solution. Keep things closed until the Ro factor is safely under 1.0 for a period of time, then begin to reopen enforcing mask wearing and social distancing. It is not magic. It is science.
If you what an economy that reopens prematurely and thus sputters along because we are not taking the right steps to address the root problem, go for it but you are making a foolish mistake. Instead, I advocate opening the economy when it is safe to do so, then it will make a robust return.
It isn't politics. It is science.
No administration would have been prepared to handle this pandemic. Could and should have been better prepared no doubt. But the cost to have been prepared fully would have blown up any budget. And look at what we are spending to try and preserve what we currently had.
My main point is not that the politics run one way. They in fact run both ways. But Newsom is using his political power to try and influence federal policy to send money our direction, with virtually no accountability on how he spends it. Staying closed applies pressure. Red states have made decisions that are surely good politics in the short run. Is it good policy? We shall see.
Right now there are enough folks that are willing to let Newsom prolong the shutdown. That may change as time moves along. Science may be the answer for a long term solution. But how long are folks willing to go along with this shutdown when the scientific answer may be years off or never truly occur? My belief is that politics are at the root of the shutdown presently. The goal posts move daily as new goals are presented as to when the shutdown can start to be eased or removed. I have heard that a vaccine must be in place before certain restrictions are eased. When if ever will that happen? No answers, just let the science play out. There are numerous viruses and diseases that have no cure. Some have treatments that help, but not every virus or disease has a cure. And may never. Billions (trillions) have been spent trying to find them.
I am all for allowing the science to move forward looking for answers. But not willing to watch it from my couch watching reruns and other crap as each political party and their followers throw rocks at each other assigning blame while our society goes down the toilet. You can. But for me I am much more closely aligned with the "Live free or die" motto. If that makes me foolish so be it.
If only we had science. What we have is technology, implemented with bias, various tech sides vying for dominance and arguing for attention and $$$.71Bear said:Actually, it is the federal government that has shown its hand. In cribbage, it is known as an Alameda straight. A total bust. Had the government been fully prepared for an event like this, we would be well on our way to a reasonably safe recovery. As it is we have been left with no plan, no thoughtful actions, nothing but chaos, reeling from one crazy idea to the next.6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
Science is the determining factor. Science is the only way out of this mess. I lean heavily towards the plan detailed in the article I included in another post. Testing and contact tracing is the only solution. Keep things closed until the Ro factor is safely under 1.0 for a period of time, then begin to reopen enforcing mask wearing and social distancing. It is not magic. It is science.
If you what an economy that reopens prematurely and thus sputters along because we are not taking the right steps to address the root problem, go for it but you are making a foolish mistake. Instead, I advocate opening the economy when it is safe to do so, then it will make a robust return.
It isn't politics. It is science.
So, the sequester has turned ugly and far from effective in the long term. The economy has been trashed for reasons not at all clear or agreed to. With the screaming by one side that the whole thing has been mishandled (being kind here) and the other defending itself while trying to find a path forward while the shells drop from the sky. The media, meanwhile, appears happy to trumpet the mess in hopes that the other news in government and politics will somehow be overlooked, if they don't report it.
To some, it will never be safe to reopen the economy, thus promoting a new normal, a new "economy" in which people are rewarded for outcomes that are "not their fault" and blaming the other side and greed for there being no money to fund the new "economy."
Luckily, the nega's are being overridden by the productive who are just getting on with it.
I respectfully disagree. I don't think anyone is proposing that players be subjected to unwarranted COVID risk or risk of spreading COVID. I would add there always is some risk in areas that provide entertainment or business in general, it just is how much you are willing to accept. You go on the playing field or perform, you assume risks, especially in contact sports. We, as fans or spectators, demand athletes, NASCAR drivers, Cirque du Soleil performers, etc. assume those risks for our entertainment or otherwise.Unit2Sucks said:wifeisafurd said:Players all want to play, as do coaches. Making it their decision is not the way to go. The more experienced adults in the room have to make a decision that it is reasonably safe. And it is broader then even that. There has to be a decision on the campus side as well. No school means no football..Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Assuming fans are allowed, it is your decision if you want to take the risk to attend games. Like I said in another post, with some states dropping all restrictions, we will have a better idea what are the risks by June when decisions about school and football are scheduled to be made by Cal and many Pac schools. Stay safe my friend.
Yes, to be clear, a lot of people have to give the go ahead before players can run through the tunnel. My point is that we as fans should not be demanding anyone risk their health for our entertainment.
My first day in law school, we went over a case in which future Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes overruled a lower decision holding a railroad negligent in the death of a patron, providing railroads immunity because innovative industry deserved a subsidy for economic enterprise (railroads then were instrumental to the country's development). I assume this case was to first reality check to the idealism of the first year students coming in to change the world.
We ask people in our society to take on risk in order that society may advance. We don't shut down during bad flu seasons, even though we know medical wards will be full of children and 60,000 or so Americans will die from the flu in a bad year per the CDC. (I think the US has around 80K COVID deaths so far).
The Holmes case has long been overruled as railroads diminished in value, but the concept still survives. Just look at cases on internet immunity. Judges, economists, accountants, politicians, and many other professions are used to cost benefit analysis. One profession that doesn't always seem that way is medical regulators. When I hear the Infectious Disease dude from Santa Clara County say he will not open up any business until he is assured there will not be one COVID death under his watch, I really have to wonder. He certainly will never be able to say that about seasonal flu or just even someone getting a pneumonia from a bad bug where thousands will die under his watch every year. We as a society assume risks in order to function. Yet I see essentially the same statement as the Santa Clara guy on this board from seemingly sophisticated people. The best argument is not a person or even some people may die from COVID if you are too aggressive. In order to allow a free and open society we subject people to risk and death all the time. It is that you will set the stage for a second wave and too many will die to offset the other impacts on closing society and business down. And we have several states testing that premise right now by dropping SIP restrictions, and I guess (hope?) we will find out by June the results. But in the meantime, petty dictators like the guy in Santa Clara don't help the cause for those of us expecting rational leadership.
All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
OdontoBear66 said:With an admitted strong bias toward fiscal conservatism and moderation in most else, I cannot abide by using the control of voting to be used to keep "legitimate" voters from voting. My worry is that those who are not legitimate voters (or the ballots thereof) get counted as well. I hope you can understand that someone can believe that all those who are eligible should be able to vote should they choose, but at the same time want to may sure that there is a legitimacy to "every" vote. So on the one side I sit with the Dems on this, but then on the other with the Repubs. And that GiveemtheAxe is why I abhor political parties and their control of the process. Throw in a Moderate political party and most of this anger would subside as common sense floats to the top.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
You cite an old canard often use by people who want to suppress the vote that if you don't impose restrictions then there will be non-legitimate votes.
The only "legitimate" votes are those that support their candidates
(By the way the OLD Republican Party stood for fiscal conservatism. The NEW Republican Part supports fiscal conservatism only when the Democrats are in control.)
The hypocrisy of the Prez's position has been shown by many many action. Including the fact that his administration set scientific standards for Re-opening the country. Then he ignored Those standards when it became clear that (because of the failures by his administration) the country could not meet those standards.
Now his administration puts out the story that the standards have been revised; but no one is allowed to see the scientific backup for those new standards.
Worse yet now more and more states (All Republican controlled) are refusing to provide access to the information about the number of deaths.
That's like playing football and having the refs not make any announcements explaining who committed the foul or what the foul was.
"15 yard penalty against Cal. Someone on the Cal team did something wrong and we think it deserves a 15 yard penalty."
I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Goobear said:In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Germany's daily new cases is down 90% from their peak while California still has a growing number of daily cases in its biggest population center.
Would you consider that to be relevant to a decision?
I should note that Trump recently said "Nothing's worse than declaring victory before that victory has been won." One of the few times he actually said the right thing - why can't that be the thing Republicans decide to get on board with?
Rushinbear said:Awwww, I'm just getting cranky (some would say "getting?"). I'm tired of people endlessly spinning these contrived (yeah, I said it) scenarios and concluding with speculation about the 14 possible outcomes, all of which somehow result in bad things happening.Creeping Incrementalism said:You have a strangely menacing, hostile tone here ("admit your underlying intent" & "quarantine... figuratively" ?), but I will answer your question since I didn't explicitly say my underlying intent and it may not be what you think.Rushinbear said:There will be football this year with actions taken to minimize risk. When we have it, we trust that you will be back to admit your underlying intent.Creeping Incrementalism said:Cave Bear said:Care to share this data? The official DOD numbers for active military personnel say just 2 deaths so far from 5171 cases. And of course as with all Covid case totals, the number of actual cases is likely to be significantly higher than the confirmed case count.Creeping Incrementalism said:Quote:
It is actions that help slow the spread and can eliminate it. Trying to achieve "herd immunity" without a vaccine is crazy.
Another fact to consider is that based on the data from US Navy ships I have seen, of healthy mostly younger working age people, around 1 in 1000 infected men will die from this. So that is any one person's individual odds when they ask themselves if they are willing to risk this. And multiply that out for the total number of deaths.
https://www.airforcemag.com/snapshot-dod-and-covid-19/
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
If there any infections, or God forbid, deaths, we trust that you will be back to demonstrate that they will have been as a direct result of the virus and not some presumption.
In the meantime, we trust that you will quarantine yourself in your home, literally and figuratively.
My point is if you play football, then accept either choice A) people accept the risk of this coronavirus and that most people will be infected and there will be some deaths -- or choice B) -- give up these stupid attempts to get by without getting sick. You can't train and play football or any contact sport without it becoming a bizarre charade of players and staff being unexpectedly quarantined. Realistically, how do you manage that? Will the controversies of the season be that the star quarterback was infected and showed no symptoms, so the coaches let him play anyway, and it was only discovered after the fact? Or will we have a bizarre constant rotation of 3rd string players based on who gets sick? And how can you say college students get be in close personal contact if they are athletes, but not if they are there to get an education and a forced attend class via Zoom lectures?
We used to have a saying in the Navy, "Measure with a micrometer, mark with a crayon and cut with an ax." My saying is, "Ready, fire, aim." You can't begin to anticipate future conditions in a complex system of humanity and the physical world. So, make your best guess with what you're sure of, get on with it and manage the consequences as you go. If you're sure of your data, start with that, but don't be surprised if the data weren't so stable as you thought. Otherwise, you could become a victim of Paralysis by Analysis.
Of course, this way of thinking would make irrelevant (or worse) the social sciences. I know, it's anti-intellectual...in a sea of intellect.
That this is your mantra is the least surprising thing you've ever said on here.
Shouldn't we use percentages?...I do agree with smart openings. In Holland for example elementary schools opened in May, High-schools will open in June. Basically they are stratifying risk groups and phase in those whith less risk sooner than those who have higher risk groups. Sounds logical to me. Bottom line is it is not 0 risk ((Santa Clara Mrs. Cody)) but smart risk taking.Unit2Sucks said:Goobear said:In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Germany's daily new cases is down 90% from their peak while California still has a growing number of daily cases in its biggest population center.
Would you consider that to be relevant to a decision?
I should note that Trump recently said "Nothing's worse than declaring victory before that victory has been won." One of the few times he actually said the right thing - why can't that be the thing Republicans decide to get on board with?
The growing number of cases in population centers if there is more than greater tolerable infection, absolutely take it into account. You in fact stratify. Just like I think we should do.
I also want economic risks looked at at the same time, not just health in a vacuum. If we did health only there would be no phones, no cars etc etc. So obviously we do not do that single level thinking.
Maximize both economic outcome and Covid outcome to a situation where the lines of both intercede....
Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Give us a break with the argument that both parties are equally at fault.
Newsom (like any rational leader) is under pressure to open the government while trying to do so under circumstances that will minimize the number of deaths. It is not an easy choice.
The choice is easy if you care only about your re-election and not about the people.
The Prez thought his entire life has been interested in only one thing HIMSELF.
Even though I consider myself a Democrat, I have long admired many many Republicans even when I disagreed with their political positions.
Most recently John McCain.
But to say that both parties are equally at fault and are equally disregarding the health safety and financial well being of the people of the United States is entirely unjustified
It has made me successful in life and enabled me to be very productive and innovative. You should try it - it's liberating.GMP said:Rushinbear said:Awwww, I'm just getting cranky (some would say "getting?"). I'm tired of people endlessly spinning these contrived (yeah, I said it) scenarios and concluding with speculation about the 14 possible outcomes, all of which somehow result in bad things happening.Creeping Incrementalism said:You have a strangely menacing, hostile tone here ("admit your underlying intent" & "quarantine... figuratively" ?), but I will answer your question since I didn't explicitly say my underlying intent and it may not be what you think.Rushinbear said:There will be football this year with actions taken to minimize risk. When we have it, we trust that you will be back to admit your underlying intent.Creeping Incrementalism said:Cave Bear said:Care to share this data? The official DOD numbers for active military personnel say just 2 deaths so far from 5171 cases. And of course as with all Covid case totals, the number of actual cases is likely to be significantly higher than the confirmed case count.Creeping Incrementalism said:Quote:
It is actions that help slow the spread and can eliminate it. Trying to achieve "herd immunity" without a vaccine is crazy.
Another fact to consider is that based on the data from US Navy ships I have seen, of healthy mostly younger working age people, around 1 in 1000 infected men will die from this. So that is any one person's individual odds when they ask themselves if they are willing to risk this. And multiply that out for the total number of deaths.
https://www.airforcemag.com/snapshot-dod-and-covid-19/
I can't find the stat now. Basically 800 on the Roosevelt + 300 on the Kidd infected, with one death. Your stats are about 1 in 2500, vs 1 in 1000 my stats, same ballpark in my opinion. If Pac-12 football is played and most players get infected, I think the math comes to a likelihood of 0-2 players dead.
This disease cannot be kept out of prisons so there is no way to keep it out of football. Best hope for a vaccine is 18 months and that is iffy. So probably 2+ seasons of no football.
That is the reality of the situation. 2+ seasons of no football, or accept about one death per conference per season.
If there any infections, or God forbid, deaths, we trust that you will be back to demonstrate that they will have been as a direct result of the virus and not some presumption.
In the meantime, we trust that you will quarantine yourself in your home, literally and figuratively.
My point is if you play football, then accept either choice A) people accept the risk of this coronavirus and that most people will be infected and there will be some deaths -- or choice B) -- give up these stupid attempts to get by without getting sick. You can't train and play football or any contact sport without it becoming a bizarre charade of players and staff being unexpectedly quarantined. Realistically, how do you manage that? Will the controversies of the season be that the star quarterback was infected and showed no symptoms, so the coaches let him play anyway, and it was only discovered after the fact? Or will we have a bizarre constant rotation of 3rd string players based on who gets sick? And how can you say college students get be in close personal contact if they are athletes, but not if they are there to get an education and a forced attend class via Zoom lectures?
We used to have a saying in the Navy, "Measure with a micrometer, mark with a crayon and cut with an ax." My saying is, "Ready, fire, aim." You can't begin to anticipate future conditions in a complex system of humanity and the physical world. So, make your best guess with what you're sure of, get on with it and manage the consequences as you go. If you're sure of your data, start with that, but don't be surprised if the data weren't so stable as you thought. Otherwise, you could become a victim of Paralysis by Analysis.
Of course, this way of thinking would make irrelevant (or worse) the social sciences. I know, it's anti-intellectual...in a sea of intellect.
That this is your mantra is the least surprising thing you've ever said on here.
I'm honored that you have read some of the things I've said.
GivemTheAxe said:Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Give us a break with the argument that both parties are equally at fault.
Newsom (like any rational leader Republican or Democrat) is under pressure to open the government while trying to do so under circumstances that will minimize the number of deaths. It is not an easy choice.
The choice is easy if you care only about your re-election and not about the people.
The Prez thought his entire life has been interested in only one thing HIMSELF.
Even though I consider myself a Democrat, I have long admired many many Republicans even when I disagreed with their political positions.
Most recently John McCain.
But to say that both parties are equally at fault and are equally disregarding the health safety and financial well being of the people of the United States under the current pandemic is entirely unjustified And illogical
As I said take politics out of it.....GivemTheAxe said:Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Give us a break with the argument that both parties are equally at fault.
Newsom (like any rational leader) is under pressure to open the government while trying to do so under circumstances that will minimize the number of deaths. It is not an easy choice.
The choice is easy if you care only about your re-election and not about the people.
The Prez thought his entire life has been interested in only one thing HIMSELF.
Even though I consider myself a Democrat, I have long admired many many Republicans even when I disagreed with their political positions.
Most recently John McCain.
But to say that both parties are equally at fault and are equally disregarding the health safety and financial well being of the people of the United States is entirely unjustified
Because Germany is executing a strategy that focuses on a long term solution and was put in place early on. Conversely, the US has no plan other than "what should we try today?" Unfortunately, California is part of the US. Had this state been an independent country, I have no doubt that we would be on the same track as Germany.Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Just for the record, the person in charge of public health in Santa Clara Co. is a woman.wifeisafurd said:I respectfully disagree. I don't think anyone is proposing that players be subjected to unwarranted COVID risk or risk of spreading COVID. I would add there always is some risk in areas that provide entertainment or business in general, it just is how much you are willing to accept. You go on the playing field or perform, you assume risks, especially in contact sports. We, as fans or spectators, demand athletes, NASCAR drivers, Cirque du Soleil performers, etc. assume those risks for our entertainment or otherwise.Unit2Sucks said:wifeisafurd said:Players all want to play, as do coaches. Making it their decision is not the way to go. The more experienced adults in the room have to make a decision that it is reasonably safe. And it is broader then even that. There has to be a decision on the campus side as well. No school means no football..Unit2Sucks said:
I'm hearing lots of arguments that remind me of ancient Roman gladiator fans.
It's not up to us to decide what risks other people should take for our entertainment. Just like I should be able to decide what risks I take in my life, these students and employees should have agency.
This just isn't our decision.
Assuming fans are allowed, it is your decision if you want to take the risk to attend games. Like I said in another post, with some states dropping all restrictions, we will have a better idea what are the risks by June when decisions about school and football are scheduled to be made by Cal and many Pac schools. Stay safe my friend.
Yes, to be clear, a lot of people have to give the go ahead before players can run through the tunnel. My point is that we as fans should not be demanding anyone risk their health for our entertainment.
My first day in law school, we went over a case in which future Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes overruled a lower decision holding a railroad negligent in the death of a patron, providing railroads immunity because innovative industry deserved a subsidy for economic enterprise (railroads then were instrumental to the country's development). I assume this case was to first reality check to the idealism of the first year students coming in to change the world.
We ask people in our society to take on risk in order that society may advance. We don't shut down during bad flu seasons, even though we know medical wards will be full of children and 60,000 or so Americans will die from the flu in a bad year per the CDC. (I think the US has around 80K COVID deaths so far).
The Holmes case has long been overruled as railroads diminished in value, but the concept still survives. Just look at cases on internet immunity. Judges, economists, accountants, politicians, and many other professions are used to cost benefit analysis. One profession that doesn't always seem that way is medical regulators. When I hear the Infectious Disease dude from Santa Clara County say he will not open up any business until he is assured there will not be one COVID death under his watch, I really have to wonder. He certainly will never be able to say that about seasonal flu or just even someone getting a pneumonia from a bad bug where thousands will die under his watch every year. We as a society assume risks in order to function. Yet I see essentially the same statement as the Santa Clara guy on this board from seemingly sophisticated people. The best argument is not a person or even some people may die from COVID if you are too aggressive. In order to allow a free and open society we subject people to risk and death all the time. It is that you will set the stage for a second wave and too many will die to offset the other impacts on closing society and business down. And we have several states testing that premise right now by dropping SIP restrictions, and I guess (hope?) we will find out by June the results. But in the meantime, petty dictators like the guy in Santa Clara don't help the cause for those of us expecting rational leadership.
Goobear said:As I said take politics out of it.....GivemTheAxe said:Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Give us a break with the argument that both parties are equally at fault.
Newsom (like any rational leader) is under pressure to open the government while trying to do so under circumstances that will minimize the number of deaths. It is not an easy choice.
The choice is easy if you care only about your re-election and not about the people.
The Prez thought his entire life has been interested in only one thing HIMSELF.
Even though I consider myself a Democrat, I have long admired many many Republicans even when I disagreed with their political positions.
Most recently John McCain.
But to say that both parties are equally at fault and are equally disregarding the health safety and financial well being of the people of the United States is entirely unjustified
There's really no way to detach politics from how the US Federal govt is responding to CV19, or how different states are now differing in response. And those differing responses will absolutely affect how sports in general and CFB specially will be played in the fall and beyond.
MLB published a 67 page document detailing health and safety protocols that would be necessary in order to resume play. Given the differences between baseball and football, how many pages would be required to resume football? 100s?ColoradoBear said:Goobear said:As I said take politics out of it.....GivemTheAxe said:Goobear said:I could argue the Democrats want to keep it closed for the same political reasons. And there it is. Take the damn politics out of it. Neither party does have the best interests of the country as their main goal. In the mean time , California has better death per million out comes than Germany and is behind relative to them into opening back up...Why is that?oskidunker said:All true, sadly.GivemTheAxe said:6956bear said:
This not just about football despite the fact that this is a football message board. It is about a way of life, a culture and how to handle risk in a "free" society. There are arguments to be made about any potential decision either to open or stay in some sort of "shutdown". People have died from this, no doubt. More will, no doubt about that either. But millions have lost their jobs and businesses. More will lose their jobs going forward. The economy has been devastated. That will linger as well. Opening up will not lead to a return to normalcy.
I have stated several times that IMO Cal is unlikely to play ball this season. That will cause severe problems for the program and likely have several sports cancelled permanently. The University if shuttered will also face severe financial repercussions for years to follow.
This pandemic is a crisis no doubt. I am not dismissing its potential impact on the lives of many. Just not comfortable with the idea that some have that it can be stopped simply be destroying the American way of life. There is a cost either way. Personally I am in the camp of open up the economy. All the way. I am unwilling to live this way. It is being alive, but not living. If we knew the duration of this situation we could perhaps weather the storm. Every day I read some new prediction, a new potential threat, a second more deadly wave this Fall and Winter. All may happen or none. Nothing is truly known.
Football is a game and life can go on without it. But this idea that we should stay indoors or wear a mask 24/7 and forego any gatherings for who knows how long is not something I am willing to do much longer. I may be in the minority but I am not sure how much science actually is being employed here. This virus is new. There are no certainties a vaccine will be developed. Ever, much less in 12-18 months.
I do know this though. It is a election year and state governments are showing their hands. What started as a way to fight the pandemic is now a full fledged political football with decisions being made at the top more around politics than science. Though they will say they are using science to drive their decisions. I say nonsense to that. The medical and science communities are working hard to find a solution, but the decision to stay shuttered IMO is political.
Newsom will open when public pressure is such that he believes he no longer has the politics on his side. Things like sports and going to the beach were part of what made California a great place to live. Without those things it becomes an expensive place with all the good stuff being made unavailable.Go ahead and take that walk on the beach with your mask. Walk by the shuttered restaurants and bars. See people you know face a very uncertain future as their jobs and lives are forever changed. Play or don't play football. But this Summer will get very hot in more ways than the weather if this sheltering goes on much longer. This coming weekend is Memorial Day weekend. Marks the unofficial start of Summer. Will be interesting to watch how folks start to react when they see the political class has actually decided to take away the California way of life.
It is interesting that you come to the conclusion that political interests (whom you essentially identify As the Democrats) are trying to take away the American way of life. Essentially making the effects of the pandemic worse in an election year.
But It is the The Prez and the Republican administration that have clearly admitted their election strategy. They must open up the country immediately NOT because opening up the county is ?justified by science but because They will lose the election in November if they do not. They are willing To gamble with the lives of many Americans in order to improve their chances of winning.
They Have a long history of taking action to suppress the vote. Now they are openly resisting any efforts to allow absentee ballots and voting by mail as was already done in Wisconsin. As was done there, they want the voters to stay away from the polls on Election Day.
Give us a break with the argument that both parties are equally at fault.
Newsom (like any rational leader) is under pressure to open the government while trying to do so under circumstances that will minimize the number of deaths. It is not an easy choice.
The choice is easy if you care only about your re-election and not about the people.
The Prez thought his entire life has been interested in only one thing HIMSELF.
Even though I consider myself a Democrat, I have long admired many many Republicans even when I disagreed with their political positions.
Most recently John McCain.
But to say that both parties are equally at fault and are equally disregarding the health safety and financial well being of the people of the United States is entirely unjustified
There's really no way to detach politics from how the US Federal govt is responding to CV19, or how different states are now differing in response. And those differing responses will absolutely affect how sports in general and CFB specially will be played in the fall and beyond.
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