socaltownie;842838942 said:

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Do you think Pinehurst greens will work the 250 days a year it will be blowing 20+ MPH? I wonder......

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no problemo

Dear Warren,

How are you?

I am fine.

Would you please commit to Coach Wyking & them California Golden Bears before I depart July 4th for my Uruguay Montevideo mission?

I would like to get a great roommate like you that also got a great GPA, it's no fun when your roomie is a dumb azz and/or doesn't believe in personal hygiene. Or hates everything about you.

Your friend,

Trevin

[video=youtube;G2S_KIErBWc][/video]

the university of berklee#

6'6" 175 lbs gerald liddell of steele high school in cibolo texas got good hair but he don't got great hair

sorry gerald




real talk#:hammer:

sometimes it's hard to keep all this **** straight in my head, thx for the calls & messages

shocky is a dumb azz (sometimes, just ask taylor)#

the cal basketball program scored a perfect 1000 on the most recent apr (academic progress report) which is tracked by the ncca for a 2nd straight year in a row

cal is not easy, it's the #1 ranked public (#3 overall) university in the world but if you got academic ambition & listen to your coaches, teammates & experienced/compassionate academic support team you can balance both basketball & schoolwork and ultimately leave berkeley with a diploma that will open doors for the rest of your life



the university of california, berkeley-#1 ranked public (#3 overall) university in the world (including south america's amazon rainforest)

james akinjo is moving up cal's big board, he's gotta keep working harder in the classroom

Shocky1;842722918 said:

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coach martin has been building a relationship/monitoring the development of 5'11" 170 lbs point guard james akinjo from salesian high school & the oakland soldiers since his freshman year




congrats to james on getting selected to the top 100 rankings for the 2018 class, the bears staff knows akinjo can score, they just wanna see more leadership on the court

akinjo also got a good relationship with salesian grad jabari bird & is being coached up by cal grad head coach bill mellis & the fastest rising assistant coach in nor cal in joshua calbert (gotta love that name, he also works with splash city under armour & has relationships with marcus lee & tolu jacobs yaffa)

james blew up at the recent 2016 nor cal classic at contra costa college with 12 points, 8 assists (arguably 10 by some accounts) & 6 rebounds in addition to attending the cal elite camp (he got similarly sized charlie moore's number too for future conversations)

yeah james akinjo is a grinder that works out 2-3 times a day that maximizes his talent, he could potentially be a key cog of cal's started at the bottom class (2018)

[video=youtube;yd0Wqoa8LeQ][/video]

the university of california, berkeley=#1 ranked public (#3 overall) university in the world (including the east bay):woohoo

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Shocky1;842838950 said:

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Dear Warren,

How are you?

I am fine.

Would you please commit to Coach Wyking & them California Golden Bears before I depart July 4th for my Uruguay Montevideo mission?

I would like to get a great roommate like you that also got a great GPA, it's no fun when your roomie is a dumb azz and/or doesn't believe in personal hygiene. Or hates everything about you.

Your friend,

Trevin

[video=youtube;G2S_KIErBWc][/video]

the university of berklee#

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When is he planning on committing?

I'm a bit baffled by the attitude that university graduate programs should go out of their way to accommodate athletes who are unlikely to complete their studies when there are other equally or better qualified students who would love to do that. I don't see that as condescending toward anyone. I see it as consistent with what graduate programs are supposed to be doing. Personally I'd like to see the grad transfer rule eliminated altogether. I think it's just another NCAA fraud.

tsubamoto2001;842838581 said:

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Should Webb pass up the NFL so Cal admins and their cronies have a nice tingling feeling inside? So they feel elite? This is life...Webb got a lifetime opportunity, so he should take that and they should keep their uppity mouths shut. If they are practicing prejudice against athletes because of some junk about "fulfilling the full obligation" then they can stick it where the sun don't shine. If Webb was a non-prospect, he'd for sure be fulfilling that "full obligation". Not mad at you personally, BC Calfan. I'm tired of the condescending view the admins have toward Cal athletics.

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bluesaxe;842838996 said:

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I'm a bit baffled by the attitude that university graduate programs should go out of their way to accommodate athletes who are unlikely to complete their studies when there are other equally or better qualified students who would love to do that. I don't see that as condescending toward anyone. I see it as consistent with what graduate programs are supposed to be doing. Personally I'd like to see the grad transfer rule eliminated altogether. I think it's just another NCAA fraud.

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Cal Basketball's mission is supposed to be to compete at the highest level. I understand having high standards in terms of admissions, but my view is that what's currently in place is extreme.

I think the grad transfer rule is one of the few good things the NCAA has come up with. It's essentially given athletes a FA market for their services. Let's not beat the bush--these guys are in school to play ball. The fact that they graduated means they fulfilled the supposed "mission" of the member schools and universities. (The real "mission" is to earn profit.) I see no problem with guys bouncing if they see a better situation for themselves elsewhere.

bluesaxe;842838996 said:

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I'm a bit baffled by the attitude that university graduate programs should go out of their way to accommodate athletes who are unlikely to complete their studies when there are other equally or better qualified students who would love to do that. I don't see that as condescending toward anyone. I see it as consistent with what graduate programs are supposed to be doing. Personally I'd like to see the grad transfer rule eliminated altogether. I think it's just another NCAA fraud.

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How about departments just working together to help each other out some? I mean, Davis Webb was ONE guy. Can't the grad departments help the athletic program a tiny bit??? Look at the APR numbers. The coaches and staff must be working their butts off to get guys to class, study etc... To be true students as well as athletes. Joe Cool Guy in some frat probably has worse attendance, grades, etc...while partying the nights away. One basketball grad transfer would ruin the school???? Please!

89Bear;842839000 said:

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How about departments just working together to help each other out some? I mean, Davis Webb was ONE guy. Can't the grad departments help the athletic program a tiny bit??? Look at the APR numbers. The coaches and staff must be working their butts off to get guys to class, study etc... To be true students as well as athletes. Joe Cool Guy in some frat probably has worse attendance, grades, etc...while partying the nights away. One basketball grad transfer would ruin the school???? Please!

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Aren't they doing exactly that already? We just had Davis Webb, and a lineman grad transfer from A&M in the same year. The bball team is on a 3 year run of grad transfers, and we might take another. The evidence seems to indicate that the grad programs are helping out. Why should they do even more simply because our sports programs can't recruit the talent needed out of high school?

It's not our grad programs' fault that Cuonzo turned down Jordan Ford or Jonah Matthews to go after a bunch of poorly qualified prospects. Or that our football program has been so damn horrendous that prep recruiting has gotten that much harder.

We have had help with grad transfers... we just haven't done a damn thing with them in the post season.

You are describing an alternate reality.

MoragaBear;842838984 said:

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Very soon

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Thank you. Any ideas when Jordan Brown and some of our other 2018 targets are thinking? It seems like Brown is the type who would commit early in order to get it over with.

socaliganbear;842839002 said:

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Aren't they doing exactly that already? We just had Davis Webb, and a lineman grad transfer from A&M in the same year. The bball team is on a 3 year run of grad transfers, and we might take another. The evidence seems to indicate that the grad programs are helping out. Why should they do even more simply because our sports programs can't recruit the talent needed out of high school?

It's not our grad programs' fault that Cuonzo turned down Jordan Ford or Jonah Matthews to go after a bunch of poorly qualified prospects. Or that our football program has been so damn horrendous that prep recruiting has gotten that much harder.

We have had help with grad transfers... we just haven't done a damn thing with them in the post season.

You are describing an alternate reality.

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The grad programs were NOT trying to help Cal Basketball, IMO. Two of those grad transfers were from the Ivy League and only Mullins was actually a legit HM level player. The program has had to pass on numerous grad transfers that may have had an interest in the program.

89Bear;842839000 said:

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How about departments just working together to help each other out some? I mean, Davis Webb was ONE guy. Can't the grad departments help the athletic program a tiny bit??? Look at the APR numbers. The coaches and staff must be working their butts off to get guys to class, study etc... To be true students as well as athletes. Joe Cool Guy in some frat probably has worse attendance, grades, etc...while partying the nights away. One basketball grad transfer would ruin the school???? Please!

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The question is do the grad programs really feel burned by a grad level 1 and done? They would still be the lead candidate for that person to return and complete their degree possibly adding a well known name the the roster of graduates. For departments that live off their grad students and have small numbers of admits, maybe, but there are probably some departments that have a little slack or realize that welcoming these student athletes has a lot of long term potential for the school if they do boomerang back.

tsubamoto2001;842839031 said:

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The grad programs were NOT trying to help Cal Basketball, IMO. Two of those grad transfers were from the Ivy League and only Mullins was actually a legit HM level player. The program has had to pass on numerous grad transfers that may have had an interest in the program.

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Lol so now the bar has moved. It's not enough that they take in grad students every year, no, now they have to make fans feel like they're doing it to help. They have to make us believe it, because we're so fragile.

Why else did they let them in if not for doing us a favor? Because they couldn't find anyone else more qualified to give that spot to???

socaliganbear;842839039 said:

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Lol so now the bar has moved. It's not enough that they take in grad students every year, no, now they have to make fans feel like they're doing it to help. They have to make us believe it, because we're so fragile.

Why else did they let them in if not for doing us a favor? Because they couldn't find anyone else more qualified to give that spot to???

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You think taking the guys we took aided the program, which is funny to me. That the Cal grad school of Public Health gave special consideration to the guys we took makes me laugh out loud. Literally. I mean, Kerr was a walk-on for crying out loud. You could make that argument for Mullins, as we beat out Michigan and Syracuse for his services.

I don't know whether the admission of Tawater, Kerr, and Mullins were aided by being on the hoops team, but if it were, then that's pure idiocy. There were plenty of other players out there if that's the case.

tsubamoto2001;842838998 said:

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Cal Basketball's mission is supposed to be to compete at the highest level. I understand having high standards in terms of admissions, but my view is that what's currently in place is extreme.

I think the grad transfer rule is one of the few good things the NCAA has come up with. It's essentially given athletes a FA market for their services. Let's not beat the bush--these guys are in school to play ball. The fact that they graduated means they fulfilled the supposed "mission" of the member schools and universities. (The real "mission" is to earn profit.) I see no problem with guys bouncing if they see a better situation for themselves elsewhere.

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I'm not saying this derisively as you are entitled to your world view, but it is clear that you view the situation from a purely athletic circumstance and look at every NCAA question based on how it impacts athletes and sports teams, when I would say that universities are supposed to be there for education first and athletics second. If this were a professional sports league, I'd have no problem with saying that an athlete fulfills his commitment and can then bounce. I have no problem with the ethics of the athlete in this situation.

However, looking at if from the point of view of the university, yes I have a problem with the rule. Universities should not have to offer up their grad programs to keep a level playing field. It is just one more way that those universities that are willing to sacrifice academic emphasis in order to succeed in sports get an advantage to those that try and hold the line. The thing is with your "real mission is to earn profit" comment is that the rule you champion is the one that most benefits those universities that nakedly pursue profit instead of maintaining any semblance of an academic program. (not to mention the fact that most of these programs don't earn a profit. Cal basketball isn't earning much for the school at all. I'd argue more that the real mission of college revenue sports programs is to make alumni feel an overinflated sense of self importance based on the accomplishments of others).

So, yes, I think it is a problem asking grad schools to accept students who have zero intent of fulfilling the program. I think they were nave if they thought Webb was really going to do so. That will probably be the last time they fall for that. There is a difference between someone who goes to college, gets a great job offer, and leaves early and someone who never intends to actually fulfill the program at all.

Frankly, I'd be happier if the NCAA would just say, "you know what? Universities can offer a major in basketball. And a grad program too if they want. It is just as valid as any other vocational type of major." Let them earn credits in their field and make them take the general requirements that any other student has to take. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than going through a charade that requires taking a spot away from someone that actually wants to study in a field that the athlete doesn't give a damn about.

If Cal wants to take grad players for the sake of getting football/basketball players, the athletic department should work with the PE department to build some 1 year grad program for them. Academic grad programs should not be required to participate unwillingly.

tsubamoto2001;842839048 said:

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You think taking the guys we took aided the program, which is funny to me. That the Cal grad school of Public Health gave special consideration to the guys we took makes me laugh out loud. Literally. I mean, Kerr was a walk-on for crying out loud. You could make that argument for Mullins, as we beat out Michigan and Syracuse for his services.

I don't know whether the admission of Tawater, Kerr, and Mullins were aided by being on the hoops team, but if it were, then that's pure idiocy. There were plenty of other players out there if that's the case.

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Surely you can't possibly think Tawater, Kerr, and Mullins were brought on to help Cal graduate school, do you? That these programs were in need of their services.. That they couldn't find more qualified applicants..... And if they weren't brought here for them, who for then?

And what about Webb and Stuckey? You think their graduate programs took them in to help themselves academically? If not them, who was it helping?

OB:

A very thoughtful post. The problem is way deeper than grad programs or no grad programs that cater to athletes. College sports began as friendly (or not-so-friendly) competition between groups of students at different universities (remember the story of the first big game that almost didn't happen because Herbert Hoover forgot to bring the football). Gradually, programs grew and became more popular with the general public. Before the NFL or NBA, college football and basketball were the only games in town. Still, they were competitions between students (more or less). As the money grew (with the growth of television), so did the corruption and the pressure to win. Probably the biggest factor--other than TV revenue--is the decision by the NFL and to a lesser extent the NBA to use college as a free minor league system.

Today, colleges say that the purposes of intercollegiate athletics are revenue generation (although with a few exceptions, the revenue generated only supports athletics itself), entertainment for students, alumni relations (and presumably alumni donations), and competitive opportunities for students. The latter, of course, can be accomplished just as easily in Division 3 as in a P5 league. These different purposes are frequently at odds with the core mission(s) of the university. Unfortunately, as long as there are Kentuckys, Baylors, Oregons, and Alabamas, the attempt to maintain an academic focus for institutions that wish to maintain integrity is going to be difficult.

In most respects, the system that exists in Europe makes the most sense. Universities teach academic courses and conduct research. Athletes learn their trade in club or semi-professional leagues. And I say this as a die-hard Bear fan.

UrsaMajor;842839064 said:

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OB:

A very thoughtful post. The problem is way deeper than grad programs or no grad programs that cater to athletes. College sports began as friendly (or not-so-friendly) competition between groups of students at different universities (remember the story of the first big game that almost didn't happen because Herbert Hoover forgot to bring the football). Gradually, programs grew and became more popular with the general public. Before the NFL or NBA, college football and basketball were the only games in town. Still, they were competitions between students (more or less). As the money grew (with the growth of television), so did the corruption and the pressure to win. Probably the biggest factor--other than TV revenue--is the decision by the NFL and to a lesser extent the NBA to use college as a free minor league system.

Today, colleges say that the purposes of intercollegiate athletics are revenue generation (although with a few exceptions, the revenue generated only supports athletics itself), entertainment for students, alumni relations (and presumably alumni donations), and competitive opportunities for students. The latter, of course, can be accomplished just as easily in Division 3 as in a P5 league. These different purposes are frequently at odds with the core mission(s) of the university. Unfortunately, as long as there are Kentuckys, Baylors, Oregons, and Alabamas, the attempt to maintain an academic focus for institutions that wish to maintain integrity is going to be difficult.

In most respects, the system that exists in Europe makes the most sense. Universities teach academic courses and conduct research. Athletes learn their trade in club or semi-professional leagues. And I say this as a die-hard Bear fan.

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This is the most perfect post i can recall on this site.

tsubamoto2001;842839031 said:

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The grad programs were NOT trying to help Cal Basketball, IMO. Two of those grad transfers were from the Ivy League and only Mullins was actually a legit HM level player. The program has had to pass on numerous grad transfers that may have had an interest in the program.

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Thank you. Exactly.

OaktownBear;842839049 said:

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I'm not saying this derisively as you are entitled to your world view, but it is clear that you view the situation from a purely athletic circumstance and look at every NCAA question based on how it impacts athletes and sports teams, when I would say that universities are supposed to be there for education first and athletics second. If this were a professional sports league, I'd have no problem with saying that an athlete fulfills his commitment and can then bounce. I have no problem with the ethics of the athlete in this situation.

However, looking at if from the point of view of the university, yes I have a problem with the rule. Universities should not have to offer up their grad programs to keep a level playing field. It is just one more way that those universities that are willing to sacrifice academic emphasis in order to succeed in sports get an advantage to those that try and hold the line. The thing is with your "real mission is to earn profit" comment is that the rule you champion is the one that most benefits those universities that nakedly pursue profit instead of maintaining any semblance of an academic program. (not to mention the fact that most of these programs don't earn a profit. Cal basketball isn't earning much for the school at all. I'd argue more that the real mission of college revenue sports programs is to make alumni feel an overinflated sense of self importance based on the accomplishments of others).

So, yes, I think it is a problem asking grad schools to accept students who have zero intent of fulfilling the program. I think they were nave if they thought Webb was really going to do so. That will probably be the last time they fall for that. There is a difference between someone who goes to college, gets a great job offer, and leaves early and someone who never intends to actually fulfill the program at all.

Frankly, I'd be happier if the NCAA would just say, "you know what? Universities can offer a major in basketball. And a grad program too if they want. It is just as valid as any other vocational type of major." Let them earn credits in their field and make them take the general requirements that any other student has to take. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than going through a charade that requires taking a spot away from someone that actually wants to study in a field that the athlete doesn't give a damn about.

If Cal wants to take grad players for the sake of getting football/basketball players, the athletic department should work with the PE department to build some 1 year grad program for them. Academic grad programs should not be required to participate unwillingly.

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So, do you then believe that high school students, who are athletes, should get no preference in admittance to our school? A five star high school QB who had a 2.9 GPA in high school should never be admitted to Cal?

89Bear;842839071 said:

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So, do you then believe that high school students, who are athletes, should get no preference in admittance to our school? A five star high school QB who had a 2.9 GPA in high school should never be admitted to Cal?

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I don't think he thinks that. I certainly don't, but that's partly because your example is undergraduate. I believe there's value in having a diverse undergraduate student body, with students from different backgrounds, with different interests and talents, etc. That includes athletes, and therefore I believe allowances can and should be made in the undergraduate population for athletes, as long as there's evidence the athlete is capable of progressing toward a degree with passing grades. Grad school is somewhat different, particularly at a research university. You're looking for the best and the brightest. It's not clear to me that diversity should necessarily be a goal, although there's an argument to be made for it in some of the professions (law, journalism, etc.). However, I agree more generally that the graduate transfer rule is a bad one, because it appears to me to be yet another instance where the playing field gets tilted in favor of Cal's less ethical peers.

socaliganbear;842839061 said:

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Surely you can't possibly think Tawater, Kerr, and Mullins were brought on to help Cal graduate school, do you? That these programs were in need of their services.. That they couldn't find more qualified applicants..... And if they weren't brought here for them, who for then?

And what about Webb and Stuckey? You think their graduate programs took them in to help themselves academically? If not them, who was it helping?

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Those guys applied to those programs and got accepted into them. If you can get a Joe Blow off the street to have taken their spots, then be my guest. If Cal grad schools were really trying to "help" Cal Basketball, it would have admitted better players than the ones you're talking about. End of story.

89Bear;842839071 said:

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So, do you then believe that high school students, who are athletes, should get no preference in admittance to our school? A five star high school QB who had a 2.9 GPA in high school should never be admitted to Cal?

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If I could go back to the beginning of time, I would do what Ursa suggested. Athletes with no academic ambition would play on club teams that have nothing to do with universities. Revenue sports and college is a bad marriage. But it is one that is deeply rooted at this point in college culture. Given that we are where we are, I'm fine with what is essentially a de facto undergraduate major in football or basketball. I'm fine with the fact that unlike most academic disciplines those that excel in football and basketball on average do not excel in overall academic disciplines and to get the equivalent of the best and the brightest, you have to make some concessions at the undergraduate level. I'm not fine if they have no intention of actually attending class or taking it seriously. And personally, I think the NCAA expanding what is basically a defective system into graduate schools when those schools were never before impacted by revenue sports is a line I'm not willing to cross. Further, if the physics department had 110 awesome candidates for their 100 grad school slots, and they went to the anthropology department and asked them to give up 10 slots to sit the excess candidates in anthro while they really studied physics, I'd say they were out of line and expect the anthro department to tell them to go to hell. I don't see why any more leeway should be given to the football/basketball teams.

Please explain WHY a grad department should do this. Please explain why a rule that has practically speaking just opened up graduate schools to people who have no intention of actually attending or getting a grad degree is good for universities. Statistically extremely few of these guys are getting grad degrees. If the rule were rescinded, we'd go back to the prior state where guys that were really serious about grad school would enter at their own university (or go someplace else for academics and not play) and guys that were not would take a semester of ball room dancing to finish their career.

I'm sorry, but when the arguments get hashed out, and the Tarwaters of the world get dissed, it pretty much becomes clear that many people just want grad schools to cave in so that they can be slightly more entertained by a slightly better team. That isn't worth it to me. And, frankly, you aren't going to get 20% of the Cal base to support the tail wagging the dog mentality. I think pushing this line of reasoning just drives greater resentment in the academic community for a cause that you will never win. It leads to the mentality that if academics give an inch, athletics will take a mile, so they give nothing. Long before we ask academics to bend over for athletics, we should secure reasonable concessions like allowing scheduling flexibility to accommodate the necessary training/playing schedule of athletes. If you think that cause isn't hurt by asking for things like admitting grad students who don't intend to use grad school, you are kidding yourself. It seems to me pretty unreasonable to complain that some professors act like athletes don't belong in their classes and then ask those same professors to take guys in their classes who have no intention of completing their course work. You make that request, you are just verifying their suspicion and making them further entrenched.

tsubamoto2001;842839086 said:

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You're using silly logic. Nonsensical even. Those guys applied to those programs and got accepted into them. If you can get a Joe Blow off the street to have taken their spots, then be my guest. If Cal grad schools were really trying to "help" Cal Basketball, it would have admitted better players than the ones you're talking about. End of story.

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If you truly believe a Cal graduate school gave Davis Webb or the others a spot because *they* wanted him, and not as a favor for their respective sport, I don't know what else to tell you. That is help.

You're confusing "help" with carte blanche.

Jeff82;842839080 said:

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I don't think he thinks that. I certainly don't, but that's partly because your example is undergraduate. I believe there's value in having a diverse undergraduate student body, with students from different backgrounds, with different interests and talents, etc. That includes athletes, and therefore I believe allowances can and should be made in the undergraduate population for athletes, as long as there's evidence the athlete is capable of progressing toward a degree with passing grades. Grad school is somewhat different, particularly at a research university. You're looking for the best and the brightest. It's not clear to me that diversity should necessarily be a goal, although there's an argument to be made for it in some of the professions (law, journalism, etc.). However, I agree more generally that the graduate transfer rule is a bad one, because it appears to me to be yet another instance where the playing field gets tilted in favor of Cal's less ethical peers.

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I don't know grad admissions. Do they only take the top scholars who have the best grades, scores etc..?? Or do they look for a diverse population?

OaktownBear;842839088 said:

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If I could go back to the beginning of time, I would do what Ursa suggested. Athletes with no academic ambition would play on club teams that have nothing to do with universities. Revenue sports and college is a bad marriage. But it is one that is deeply rooted at this point in college culture. Given that we are where we are, I'm fine with what is essentially a de facto undergraduate major in football or basketball. I'm fine with the fact that unlike most academic disciplines those that excel in football and basketball on average do not excel in overall academic disciplines and to get the equivalent of the best and the brightest, you have to make some concessions at the undergraduate level. I'm not fine if they have no intention of actually attending class or taking it seriously. And personally, I think the NCAA expanding what is basically a defective system into graduate schools when those schools were never before impacted by revenue sports is a line I'm not willing to cross. Further, if the physics department had 110 awesome candidates for their 100 grad school slots, and they went to the anthropology department and asked them to give up 10 slots to sit the excess candidates in anthro while they really studied physics, I'd say they were out of line and expect the anthro department to tell them to go to hell. I don't see why any more leeway should be given to the football/basketball teams.

Please explain WHY a grad department should do this. Please explain why a rule that has practically speaking just opened up graduate schools to people who have no intention of actually attending or getting a grad degree is good for universities. Statistically extremely few of these guys are getting grad degrees. If the rule were rescinded, we'd go back to the prior state where guys that were really serious about grad school would enter at their own university (or go someplace else for academics and not play) and guys that were not would take a semester of ball room dancing to finish their career.

I'm sorry, but when the arguments get hashed out, and the Tarwaters of the world get dissed, it pretty much becomes clear that many people just want grad schools to cave in so that they can be slightly more entertained by a slightly better team. That isn't worth it to me. And, frankly, you aren't going to get 20% of the Cal base to support the tail wagging the dog mentality. I think pushing this line of reasoning just drives greater resentment in the academic community for a cause that you will never win. It leads to the mentality that if academics give an inch, athletics will take a mile, so they give nothing. Long before we ask academics to bend over for athletics, we should secure reasonable concessions like allowing scheduling flexibility to accommodate the necessary training/playing schedule of athletes. If you think that cause isn't hurt by asking for things like admitting grad students who don't intend to use grad school, you are kidding yourself. It seems to me pretty unreasonable to complain that some professors act like athletes don't belong in their classes and then ask those same professors to take guys in their classes who have no intention of completing their course work. You make that request, you are just verifying their suspicion and making them further entrenched.

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So 1 or 2 total football/basketball players a year getting in to grad programs because of allowances to the athletic department is out of line in your view?

Do 1 or 2 get admitted for other allowances in grad programs?

socaliganbear;842839089 said:

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If you truly believe a Cal graduate school gave Davis Webb or the others a spot because *they* wanted him, and not as a favor for their respective sport, I don't know what else to tell you. That is help.

You're confusing "help" with carte blanche.

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I don't really follow the FB program, so let's stick to hoops. I don't know Webb's academic background and I'm not all that interested in researching it. But you believe that the grad programs did the hoops team a favor with the guys they admitted. That assertion is laughable. You're using faulty logic to try and prove your point, but it doesn't hold up here. First off, you have to be interested in a grad program and apply, correct? Unless these grad programs are out actively recruiting students, then your point doesn't hold. These athletes applied and were accepted. Unless you can prove that these guys were given preference due to their athlete status, you have no argument. And based on the guys we took into the hoops program and the guys that we couldn't even go after, there's no way your argument stands.

tsubamoto2001;842839086 said:

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You're using silly logic. Nonsensical even. Those guys applied to those programs and got accepted into them. If you can get a Joe Blow off the street to have taken their spots, then be my guest. If Cal grad schools were really trying to "help" Cal Basketball, it would have admitted better players than the ones you're talking about. End of story.

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Again. Only looking at the athletic side of things. Does it occur to you that maybe they took a guy that marginally qualified that wouldn't have gotten in without basketball while the "better players" were wholly unqualified? Let's get it out there. What GPA do you think they should go down to? Or does it factor at all? Is their admission based purely on athletic exploits and if they have a fake degree handed them for earning straight C's at a football or basketball factory, that is good enough?

I think it is pretty clear that most of the guys who have come into grad programs to play football and basketball would not have been admitted if they didn't play sports. Your the one using silly logic ignoring the fact that they reduced their standards to bring in players the coaching staff wanted. The fact that they didn't reduce their standards enough for you does not mean they didn't. Socal is right, they certainly didn't admit those guys for themselves.

And see, the problem is with your attitude is that the next time a guy with say a 3.6 GPA who happens to be a good ball player may actually come available, well, good luck on that. If basically they are going to get ripped for not completely capitulating on academics for you to get in a player you deem athletically worthy, they might as well make no concessions whatsoever.

This is basically like asking your wife to consider hotness when hiring a nanny. You want it. She gets nothing out of it and if anything is put out by it. And you are mad she won't make concessions. What are you offering in return? Why should grad programs do this other than to make you happy?

Here's a clue. Get academic donors to agree with you. Unfortunately for you, it won't ever happen at Cal. If academic concessions for athletics was important to y'all in a university, ya should have gone someplace else.

tsubamoto2001;842839097 said:

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I don't really follow the FB program, so let's stick to hoops. I don't know Webb's academic background and I'm not all that interested in researching it. But you believe that the grad programs did the hoops team a favor with the guys they admitted. That assertion is laughable. You're using faulty logic to try and prove your point, but it doesn't hold up here.

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Very simple logic. We wanted a few guys, we got a few guys. No, they didn't let in every guy. But it's a well we've gone back to year after year now. And it's not because Cal grad programs need the help in recruiting students. There is no need for them to take these guys in if not for basketball. I don't need to prove a point, Cal has proved it for three years running now.

OaktownBear;842839098 said:

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Again. Only looking at the athletic side of things. Does it occur to you that maybe they took a guy that marginally qualified that wouldn't have gotten in without basketball while the "better players" were wholly unqualified? Let's get it out there. What GPA do you think they should go down to? Or does it factor at all? Is their admission based purely on athletic exploits and if they have a fake degree handed them for earning straight C's at a football or basketball factory, that is good enough?

I think it is pretty clear that most of the guys who have come into grad programs to play football and basketball would not have been admitted if they didn't play sports. Your the one using silly logic ignoring the fact that they reduced their standards to bring in players the coaching staff wanted. The fact that they didn't reduce their standards enough for you does not mean they didn't. Socal is right, they certainly didn't admit those guys for themselves.

And see, the problem is with your attitude is that the next time a guy with say a 3.6 GPA who happens to be a good ball player may actually come available, well, good luck on that. If basically they are going to get ripped for not completely capitulating on academics for you to get in a player you deem athletically worthy, they might as well make no concessions whatsoever.

This is basically like asking your wife to consider hotness when hiring a nanny. You want it. She gets nothing out of it and if anything is put out by it. And you are mad she won't make concessions. What are you offering in return? Why should grad programs do this other than to make you happy?

Here's a clue. Get academic donors to agree with you. Unfortunately for you, it won't ever happen at Cal. If academic concessions for athletics was important to y'all in a university, ya should have gone someplace else.

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Your logic is sillier than the other poster. Cal Basketball has taken 3 grad transfers. You argue that Ivy League guys like Tarwater and Mullins were given preference by the grad programs and Kerr (a walk-on who barely played, BTW) was given preference for...what exactly? Pure silliness. It's clear that the standards are high. Cool. Whatever. But it's pure BS to think that the grad schools are in some way helping the hoops program.

89Bear;842839095 said:

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So 1 or 2 total football/basketball players a year getting in to grad programs because of allowances to the athletic department is out of line in your view?

Do 1 or 2 get admitted for other allowances in grad programs?

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1 person who the university knows has no intention of completing coursework being admitted to grad programs is out of line. If a grad program happens to value other attributes in their admissions process when admitting those that intend to fulfill the program, whether that be musical ability, business acumen, community service, or athletic prowess, that is up to the grad program. If the athletic department wishes to ask for a candidate to be considered, that is fine. As long as the grad program decides and doesn't take crap for it.

And yes, if the grad program takes a 2.9 GPA guy for a slot that normally requires a 4.0 GPA, I won't think very much of their admissions process.

And by the way, 1 football player a year out of 85 will not move the needle for the program. So why make that concession?

You still didn't answer why the grad program should do it. What do they get out of it? Believe it or not, they don't really care about your happiness while you sit in Memorial Stadium.

If everyone here sends me $5, very few of you will miss it. But I'll have a good chunk of change. C'mon. It is a small request. Just $5. How can that be out of line?

socaliganbear;842839099 said:

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Very simple logic. We wanted a few guys, we got a few guys. No, they didn't let in every guy. But it's a well we've gone back to year after year now. And it's not because Cal grad programs need the help in recruiting students. There is no need for them to take these guys in if not for basketball. I don't need to prove a point, Cal has proved it for three years running now.

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Why is the is the grad transfer route such an issue to you? It's part of the landscape nowadays, whether you like it or not, just like the one-and-done. To say "well, we've gone to the well one too many times" is doesn't make sense, especially considering the circumstances of this particular offseason with Martin. And let's take a look at who we brought in. Tarwater graduated from Cornell, Mullins from Columbia. Could they not have made it into the grad programs on academic merit? How about Kerr, who had a 3.76 GPA at USD? It's clear that their admissions weren't entirely basketball related.