OT: Simone Biles Choosing to Not Compete

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GivemTheAxe
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In reply to ducky23 • 11:20a, 7/28/21
ducky23 said:
GivemTheAxe said:
ducky23 said:
Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.





Most sports fans can better appreciate physical problems than they can mental problems. It is macho to say just "tough it out". But an athlete knows when she/he can't perform. And IMO it is foolish to ignore those problems when there is real risk of serious and permanent injury.

You say why quit in the middle of a game. Well that happens all the time. How many times have star players been benched for the rest of the game or the rest of the season either because of concussion or to undergo further x-rays/testing.
They are being benched in order to avoid real risk of serious injury.


I'll say it again. Im only commenting on the reaction to biles' decision. Not on the decision itself.

Also your example is not analogous at all. This is not a coach pulling a football player for a concussion.

This is Tom Brady deciding himself to sit during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because of mental health issues. And we all know that it's unlikely a male athlete would do that. Not because they aren't suffering mental health issues. But because they know they'd be crushed by the media, by the fans, by their coaches and by their teammates. They don't have the same freedoms/protections female athletes have. That's just a fact.

So again. The question I have is why no one is discussing this huge double standard?


There was a time when the seriousness of concussions was not properly understood, when a player was expected to have his "bell rung" shake it off and get back in the game. The more times this happened proved how tough that player was.

There was also a time before locker room x-rays when a player was expected to play after a savage hit to his knee as long as he could stand up and walk. If the player complained about the pain, that player was malingering or a "wuss". That player might even get fined.

I assume that the mind-body disconnect that Biles is suffering from is probably experienced by male gymnasts as well as female gymnasts. (One post I read on the internet was by a male gymnast who reported similar problems and he had to change his routine to avoid the particular movement that would trigger the mind-body problems. That gymnast reported that when the problem got worse, he just quit the sport.

It is possible that there is a double standard and that "real men" aren't supposed to talk about these types of problems until it becomes socially acceptable to do so because of advances in medicine (knowledge of concussions) or technology (locker room x-ray machines).
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dajo9
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11:32a, 7/28/21
Simone Biles has ADHD and takes medicine for it. This is known in the public sphere. It is also very common for people who have ADHD to have comorbidities.

None of us here is in a position to judge Simone Biles. I hope she gets healthy and I thank her for what she has done for our country and our entertainment.
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to GivemTheAxe • 11:33a, 7/28/21
GivemTheAxe said:
ducky23 said:
GivemTheAxe said:
ducky23 said:
Look, I'm not going to criticize Biles' decision to withdraw. Mental health issues is a serious thing. And no one knows what's really going on except the person it's happening to. So that's not what this post is about. This post is much more about the public reaction to her decision.

..we all know that if the male equivalent did the same thing, they would be getting absolutely crushed by the media, the talking heads, by people on this board. (Also this is not equivalent to saffel - who quit before the season started). The true equivalent would be if Steph just called it quits at halftime of the nba finals. Or if Tom Brady sat during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because his head wasn't in it. For all those here praising biles, would you be praising Steph and Brady in the same situation? Maybe you would. But I guarantee you, there absolutely would not be this universal praise.

I have a problem with this double standard. I'm more liberal than most on this board, but I have a problem with our currently too woke culture that won't even allow us to have a discussion about this double standard. I also think, in a way, this double standard is inherently sexist. It almost assumes that females are weaker.

I don't know. I'm just trying to be honest with myself. I honestly don't care what biles does, mostly cause I don't care if the us wins gold or not. But if Steph just quit at halftime of game 7, id be pissed. And I wouldn't understand the decision. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone.





Most sports fans can better appreciate physical problems than they can mental problems. It is macho to say just "tough it out". But an athlete knows when she/he can't perform. And IMO it is foolish to ignore those problems when there is real risk of serious and permanent injury.

You say why quit in the middle of a game. Well that happens all the time. How many times have star players been benched for the rest of the game or the rest of the season either because of concussion or to undergo further x-rays/testing.
They are being benched in order to avoid real risk of serious injury.


I'll say it again. Im only commenting on the reaction to biles' decision. Not on the decision itself.

Also your example is not analogous at all. This is not a coach pulling a football player for a concussion.

This is Tom Brady deciding himself to sit during the super bowl citing fear for his safety because of mental health issues. And we all know that it's unlikely a male athlete would do that. Not because they aren't suffering mental health issues. But because they know they'd be crushed by the media, by the fans, by their coaches and by their teammates. They don't have the same freedoms/protections female athletes have. That's just a fact.

So again. The question I have is why no one is discussing this huge double standard?


T
I assume that the mind-body disconnect that Biles is suffering from is probably experienced by male gymnasts as well as female gymnasts. (One post I read on the internet was by a male gymnast who reported similar problems and he had to change his routine to avoid the particular movement that would trigger the mind-body problems. That gymnast reported that when the problem got worse, he just quit the sport.

golfers of both genders get the yips (its called the twisties in gymnastics). Yips btw is a four letter word not mentioned anywhere near putting greens. but it is essentially the same thing. The yips are a type of focal dystonia, a condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions during a specific task. It's most likely related to overuse of a certain set of muscles, similar to writer's cramp. Anxiety worsens the effect. Some athletes become so anxious and self-focused overthinking to the point of distraction that their ability to execute a skill, such as putting, is impaired. "Choking" is an extreme form of performance anxiety that may compromise a golfer's or any athlete's game. But yes, it happesn to athletes of both genders, and often to athletes at the top of their profession: Ben Hogan, Tiger, John Lester (could not throw pick-off attempts), Steve Sax, Nick Anderson (free throws), Nick Foolt (short field goals), Dementieva (tennis serves), LeBon says he gets then occasionally doing free throw "meltdowns" . The most humorous case was second baseman Chuck Knoblauch, a Rookie of the Year and long time all-star, who started having problems throwing the ball to first base. Apparently, one of his wild throws from second base hit Keith Olberman's mom in the face as she watched the game from the stands. He was moved to a different position. Biles really doesn't have that option.


This is not be confused with Osaka, who admitted she has clinical depression and a phobia for speaking in public.
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ducky23
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In reply to socaliganbear • 12:23p, 7/28/21
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
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socaliganbear
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In reply to ducky23 • 12:35p, 7/28/21
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
I do not see this as a zero sum game. Male athletes are not less empowered because of the level of Simone's praise (which is far from universal). The societal mistake here would be to think we should praise (whatever that mean) her LESS, instead of, men should be praised MORE for doing the same. There isn't a finite amount of praise/empathy/understanding/common sense that needs to be distributed.
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ducky23
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In reply to socaliganbear • 12:47p, 7/28/21
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
I do not see this as a zero sum game. Male athletes are not less empowered because of the level of Simone's praise (which is far from universal). The societal mistake here would be to think we should praise (whatever that mean) her LESS, instead of, men should be praised MORE for doing the same. There isn't a finite amount of praise/empathy/understanding/common sense that needs to be distributed.


This totally confuses the issue. What this does for male athletes is a completely separate issue. For now, I'm just talking about how this affects the female athlete.

Lets take this a step further. Lets say this "trend" continues where a few more high profile female athletes start stepping away from the sport while males still refuse to do so (mostly because of societal pressures that female athletes don't have to face).

So if the above happens, how will that affect the female athletes' search for equality?
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socaliganbear
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In reply to ducky23 • 12:58p, 7/28/21
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
I do not see this as a zero sum game. Male athletes are not less empowered because of the level of Simone's praise (which is far from universal). The societal mistake here would be to think we should praise (whatever that mean) her LESS, instead of, men should be praised MORE for doing the same. There isn't a finite amount of praise/empathy/understanding/common sense that needs to be distributed.


This totally confuses the issue. What this does for male athletes is a completely separate issue. For now, I'm just talking about how this affects the female athlete.

Lets take this a step further. Lets say this "trend" continues where a few more high profile female athletes start stepping away from the sport while males still refuse to do so (mostly because of societal pressures that female athletes don't have to face).

So if the above happens, how will that affect the female athletes' search for equality?
Men should work on figuring out how to empower men to do what she did, not how to lessen her praise because that may effect female equality.

Wouldn't that be something. Because men, the people who would in theory trash a male Simone equivalent for doing what she did, don't know how not to do that, we must empower Simone (and females) a little less, give a little less praise so as to not hinder female inequality, an massively complex issue also shaped by men. Ain't that some sh*t.


Meanwhile, there's an entire segment of hyper popular cable news and talk radio doing the exact opposite of praise. To say nothing of a large component of social media engagement that is decidedly not in her favor.
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ducky23
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In reply to socaliganbear • 1:12p, 7/28/21
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
I do not see this as a zero sum game. Male athletes are not less empowered because of the level of Simone's praise (which is far from universal). The societal mistake here would be to think we should praise (whatever that mean) her LESS, instead of, men should be praised MORE for doing the same. There isn't a finite amount of praise/empathy/understanding/common sense that needs to be distributed.


This totally confuses the issue. What this does for male athletes is a completely separate issue. For now, I'm just talking about how this affects the female athlete.

Lets take this a step further. Lets say this "trend" continues where a few more high profile female athletes start stepping away from the sport while males still refuse to do so (mostly because of societal pressures that female athletes don't have to face).

So if the above happens, how will that affect the female athletes' search for equality?
Men should work on figuring out how to empower men to do what she did, not how to lessen her praise because that may effect female equality.

Wouldn't that be something. Because men, the people who would in theory trash a male Simone equivalent for doing what she did, don't know how not to do that, we must empower Simone (and females a little less, give a little less praise) so as to not hinder female inequality, an massively complex issue also shaped by men. Ain't that some sh*t.


Meanwhile, there's an entire segment of hyper popular cable news and talk radio doing the exact of praise. To say nothing of a large component of social media engagement that is decidedly not in her favor.


I mean, Phelps is trying. But let's be honest. No one gives a S about Michael Phelps. He's not really going to move the needle.

For what you want to happen to happen, it would take someone like Lebron to sit out the playoffs or something. He would take a crap load of heat. But it would start making it acceptable for male athletes to take a break for mental health reasons.
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okaydo
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1:47p, 7/28/21
https://discourseblog.com/simone-biles-naomi-osaka-olympics-reactionary-backlash/





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GivemTheAxe
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In reply to ducky23 • 1:58p, 7/28/21
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.


I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
I do not see this as a zero sum game. Male athletes are not less empowered because of the level of Simone's praise (which is far from universal). The societal mistake here would be to think we should praise (whatever that mean) her LESS, instead of, men should be praised MORE for doing the same. There isn't a finite amount of praise/empathy/understanding/common sense that needs to be distributed.


This totally confuses the issue. What this does for male athletes is a completely separate issue. For now, I'm just talking about how this affects the female athlete.

Lets take this a step further. Lets say this "trend" continues where a few more high profile female athletes start stepping away from the sport while males still refuse to do so (mostly because of societal pressures that female athletes don't have to face).

So if the above happens, how will that affect the female athletes' search for equality?
Men should work on figuring out how to empower men to do what she did, not how to lessen her praise because that may effect female equality.

Wouldn't that be something. Because men, the people who would in theory trash a male Simone equivalent for doing what she did, don't know how not to do that, we must empower Simone (and females a little less, give a little less praise) so as to not hinder female inequality, an massively complex issue also shaped by men. Ain't that some sh*t.


Meanwhile, there's an entire segment of hyper popular cable news and talk radio doing the exact of praise. To say nothing of a large component of social media engagement that is decidedly not in her favor.


I mean, Phelps is trying. But let's be honest. No one gives a S about Michael Phelps. He's not really going to move the needle.

For what you want to happen to happen, it would take someone like Lebron to sit out the playoffs or something. He would take a crap load of heat. But it would start making it acceptable for male athletes to take a break for mental health reasons.


Remember this is not just a mental health problem. But a mental health problem that can likely result in a serious permanent injury. There are very few stimes where Lebron would face a similar dangerous situation unless Lebron were to perform a spinning triple axle slam dunk over the top of the backboard.
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okaydo
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2:17p, 7/28/21
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kal kommie
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In reply to ducky23 • 3:50p, 7/28/21
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.
I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
Funny part about this is Ainsley Hayes is a very patronizing "professional woman" character. It begins with everyone knowing her raison d'etre is to put a gorgeous woman on the show, a proper lady with big round eyes, long straight blonde hair, flawless milk-white skin, a beautiful smile and killer body. She plays in professional politics, one of the most sociopathic industries in the country, but under a transparently-thin tough exterior she's soft as a mewling baby. She stammers adorably when brought in to see Leo, and even more adorably hides in a closet when Jed is in the room, looking like a sheepish 8-year-old when Bartlett oh-so-gently calls her out and then coos over her. Before anyone in the White House knows her at all she's already being treated like a daughter by the two patriarchs of the administration.

Joining the Bartlett White House is already an act of irresolution, since as she explicitly states the policies and philosophies of the administration are supposedly antithetical to her, but all of these political and ideological differences instantly melt away for Ainsley when she sees Bartlett being an empathic human being to the leader of another country who is bravely facing a crisis that will eventually cost his life. It takes about 10 minutes of screen time for her to become a Bartlett cultist, defending the leaders of the administration as being righteous and true against the snide remarks of her petty, partisan fellow conservatives.

The first independent work we see her going as a White House lawyer ends up with her crying in her office after being handled dismissively by a pair of male White House lawyers and receiving a card with "*****" written on it. This opens the gate for Sam to be her white knight and champion her honor against the meanies who refused to play nice. Sam puts the cherry on top of saving her by throwing her a delightful little party wherein she's suddenly accepted by all of the main characters and can keep the water works turned off for the remainder of the series because no one will ever be mean to her again.

Anyway, this is nearly entirely about people like OP who want to beat their favorite pinatas, the messaging in our superficially enlightened MSM and the supposed mental/moral weakness of modern American culture. Cal fans in particular should have some appreciation for a player in a team sport who pulls themselves from the game when they know they don't have it. If only Longshore had done the same in 2007.
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bearister
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4:19p, 7/28/21
When she was interviewed two days ago after the prelims and said that for the first time in her life she is afraid of getting hurt. My immediate thought: Some young fearless Olympian psychopath from another country is now thinking: "I got a shot at the Gold after all "
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
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I got some friends inside
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Cal8285
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In reply to kal kommie • 5:39p, 7/28/21
kal kommie said:
ducky23 said:
socaliganbear said:

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.
I think this is right. But we clearly are a long way off from that point. And that's the problem.

I think by universally praising biles, we are, as a society, implying that this is ok for a female athlete but not for a male athlete.

So are we empowering female athletes? Or are we inadvertently hindering their progress towards equality? Do women still need extra protections? Are these extra protections causing more harm than good?

How are female athletes going to achieve equal pay when our society is fine with painting females as mentally weaker. Because that is exactly what is happening whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Cause it is an absolute fact that biles' male counterpart would not be allowed to do what biles did.

I don't presume to have an answer to any of these questions. Though as an Ainsley Hayes feminist (double gold star to anyone who understands that reference) I think I do tend to lean a certain way.
. . . .

Anyway, this is nearly entirely about people like OP who want to beat their favorite pinatas, the messaging in our superficially enlightened MSM and the supposed mental/moral weakness of modern American culture. Cal fans in particular should have some appreciation for a player in a team sport who pulls themselves from the game when they know they don't have it. If only Longshore had done the same in 2007.
Others have suggested that in team sports, there is someone else to tell the player you shouldn't play anymore. There was an implication that Michael Saffell's decision was less of a "quit" because it was based in part on what a doctor said, Biles had to make the decision on her own.

As the Longshore affair shows, however, the coaches/trainers/medical staff often aren't going to say, "You shouldn't play," even when the players really SHOULDN'T play. The NFL, as part of its concussion protocol, has an independent person who, in theory, will force a player out of a game, because everybody knows that you can't trust team personnel to have the best interests of the player's health.

When Chase Lyman didn't want to play because of his knee, Tedford called him out for being soft. Then it turned out he needed surgery, and Tedford apologized. But it is part of the culture, play through the pain or you are soft and worthless.

So when Longshore gets hurt, OF COURSE he says he wants to play, he's OK to play. Who cares that he can't even walk without a serious limp, he'll play through the pain. So when his play is poor as a result of the injury, when he aggravates the injury when he's hit (because he is no where near healed), Tedford says, "Well, Nate said he was OK to play so I played him, what else was I gonna do?" But, Tedford, you pretty much INSISTED that guys like Longshre say they are OK to play, you proved you'd castigate a guy for being soft if he said he wasn't ok to play. So you use a lame excuse that Longshore said, "Put me in coach, I'm ready to play!" so, hey, it wasn't Tedford's fault he was out there on an ankle that it didn't take an orthopedic surgeon to know should not be subject to playing sandlot football, much less P5 QB.

It takes guts in the culture of college football to do what Lyman did, to say I can't play, and be subject to abuse from his coach and the disrespect of his teammates. Longshore and Lyman both needed coaches who would say, "Sorry, you can't play," and neither had one, one helped himself and the team by not playing and being subject to abuse, Longshore hurt himself and the team by playing and being subject to a different kind of abuse, but who can blame Longshore in that culture? So ducky23 is sort of right, that Biles' male counterpart would not be "allowed" to do what she did, in that the male probably would get mostly criticism and not praise, but ducky23 is wrong to say that Biles is getting universal praise, because, as this thread makes clear, while she is getting praise, it is hardly universal, she is taking heat from plenty of corners. And while, among some, there is a double standard, it seems crazy to conclude that therefore, women should behave as foolishly as men in order to help gain equality.

Biles wouldn't be taking the heat she is getting now, or the praise she is getting now, if she had coaches with the power to say, "Sorry, you can't do this anymore," but precisely because she was the only one who would/could make that call, some people want to beat her up for it and some people want to praise her for it.

In the end, my main takeaway is that it is a f'in crazy world we live in.
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okaydo
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6:12p, 7/28/21
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Goobear
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6:31p, 7/28/21
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not
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socaliganbear
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In reply to Goobear • 6:40p, 7/28/21
Goobear said:
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not


The media, like any major industry, will do whatever it can to make the most money, and that's the American way we all support.
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Goobear
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In reply to socaliganbear • 6:48p, 7/28/21
socaliganbear said:
Goobear said:
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not


The media, like any major industry, will do whatever it can to make the most money, and that's the American way we all support.
Agree with that but the networks mostly liberal are hypocritical indeed
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socaliganbear
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In reply to Goobear • 8:26p, 7/28/21
Goobear said:
socaliganbear said:
Goobear said:
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not


The media, like any major industry, will do whatever it can to make the most money, and that's the American way we all support.
Agree with that but the networks mostly liberal are hypocritical indeed


Only if you subscribe to a binary/culture war view of life.
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BearDown2o15
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8:32p, 7/28/21
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend watching "The Weight of Gold," it shines a light on this very subject.

Regarding those who are trying to compare Brady pulling out of a game vs Biles being so out of it she didn't do the correct routine, the two are not comparable. The fact that Biles landed that vault without having a career ending injury is amazing.

I think the problem is, too many critics don't understand how one wrong move in gymnastics can cause a life altering injury.
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socaliganbear
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In reply to BearDown2o15 • 8:36p, 7/28/21
BearDown2o15 said:
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend watching "The Weight of Gold," it shines a light on this very subject.

Regarding those who are trying to compare Brady pulling out of a game vs Biles being so out of it she didn't do the correct routine, the two are more comparable. The fact that Biles landed that vault without having a career ending injury is amazing.

I think the problem is, too many critics don't understand how one wrong move in gymnastics can cause a life altering injury.



Because the critics aren't actually considering gymnastics at all. They're considering how rage coverage will play towards ratings. It plays well!
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CALiforniALUM
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 8:43p, 7/28/21
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
CALiforniALUM said:
This has to be the most underwhelming Olympics I can recall. Quite a few hype trains left the station but never reached their hyped destination.

Women's Softball
Women''s Gymnastics
Women's Soccer (still en route)
Ladecky dethroned (200m?)
Men's Basketball (still en route)
Women's Tennis

I'm sure there are others as these are just the ones I have heard about without even trying.
I see you ignored Katie Ledecky having a dominant win in the 1500m race. It's been a few decades since Americans deserved any hype in tennis and I can't recall any American tennis player being hyped this time. The Women's Gymnastic team took silver. I'm sorry that was a major disappointment for you.

The media, especially NBC in this case, has a vested interest in hyping things up and generating excitement. I can't blame the athletes, after spending years working hard in anonymity, from getting involved and soaking up some attention and advertising dollars. I'd do it in their situation. Very few will receive any notice after they stop appearing in the Olympics.

As for the results, in timed events, I don't see any drop off in performance from previous Olympics. I think that in most sports, the rest of the world is learning and catching up with us. Look at the Olympians from Cal. 2/3 are competing for other countries, not the US. That's true to some degree that I haven't researched at other schools. Eventually that brings the standards up in the rest of the world and bites the US in the butt. I expect the trend to continue in future Olympics.

I agree this has been an underwhelming Olympics because of COVID and the lack of people in the stands. Still, I find I'm watching more this time than the last several Olympics. Mostly it's because I'm still home recovering from surgery last month, but I'm still finding it enjoyable, even if some of the compelling story lines involve athletes from other countries. I think my favorite moment so far was watching the woman weightlifter from the Philippines win the first gold medal for her country and being overcome with emotion.


I didn't ignore Lendecky's 1500 win. She won it a matter of hours before my post and I tend to watch my Olympics in the evening.

The time difference is another thing that makes these Olympics less desirable since live TV on the East coast is too early for me to make the effort to get up before the sun.

My point in my original post was that the hype train often establishes unrealistic expectations that are often not met. I agree that the lack of fans sucks too. In a sense sports are a form of entertainment that are just not as entertaining without the audience. I'm not taking anything away from the athletes or criticizing them for their performance, representation, or choices they make voluntarily or have forced upon them in the pursuit of their dreams. As an audience to the story told and filtered through TV this Olympics is missing something.
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OdontoBear66
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In reply to socaliganbear • 8:54p, 7/28/21
socaliganbear said:
Goobear said:
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not


The media, like any major industry, will do whatever it can to make the most money, and that's the American way we all support.
Still sucks..... The media is at the bottom...
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socaliganbear
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In reply to OdontoBear66 • 8:56p, 7/28/21
OdontoBear66 said:
socaliganbear said:
Goobear said:
Perhaps the media who hype the **** out of stars should take note..you are not helping the athlete. You build them up to get eyeballs they break down and use that to get eyeballs. The only one who wins for sure is the media, the athletes may not


The media, like any major industry, will do whatever it can to make the most money, and that's the American way we all support.
Still sucks..... The media is at the bottom...


The media is a reflection of the times and the people who consume it. Built by people for people because of people. Controlled by a handful of old guys seeking to make the most money possible.
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GivemTheAxe
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In reply to BearDown2o15 • 9:43p, 7/28/21
BearDown2o15 said:
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend watching "The Weight of Gold," it shines a light on this very subject.

Regarding those who are trying to compare Brady pulling out of a game vs Biles being so out of it she didn't do the correct routine, the two are more comparable. The fact that Biles landed that vault without having a career ending injury is amazing.

I think the problem is, too many critics don't understand how one wrong move in gymnastics can cause a life altering injury.


Thank you BearDown. This is precisely the point I was trying to make and precisely the point that other posters were missing. Any athlete can suffer mental problems without a corresponding risk to life and limb.
Tom Brady might have a mind-body problem that causes him to miss a wide open receiver. But his mind-body problem does not risk his life. Same for Lebron James. He might periodically suffer an attack of vertigo (hypothetically) but those attacks wouldn't risk his life and limb unless he were a trapeze artist or a tightrope walker.

Here Ms Biles throws herself high into the air performing twists and spins that required the greatest attention and balance and acrobatic timing. One misstep could end her career if not her life.

Any long-time Cal football fans reading this thread might want to remember Jahvid Best's agonizing accident during the WSU game where he lay motionless on the field for what seemed like minutes.
That is the type of injury a gymnast can suffer if the gymnast were to have mind-body control problems.
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wifeisafurd
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10:09p, 7/28/21
Be happy to know it is now all Suni Lee with an occasional shot of the photogenic Jade Carey, who is the favorite in the floor exercise, thank you NBS. Simone who?
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okaydo
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11:18p, 7/28/21
https://slate.com/culture/2021/07/simone-biles-nbc-olympics-gymnastics-attention-pressure-responsibility.html





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01Bear
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5:28a, 7/29/21
How many of you (especially those now criticizing Simone Biles) have ever attempted a backflip in your life? I attempted to do a backflip before, twice. I failed both times, landing on my neck (I decided to stop before trying for a third time). Fortunately, I managed not to hurt myself, but I could easily have caused severe injury (including paralysis). That was just from simply trying to do a backflip from a standing position.

Now imagine trying to do that while being catapulted ten feet in the air. Now imagine landing on your neck. That's a great way to end not just a career, but a life.

All of you calling Simone Biles soft for daring to withdraw from competing instead of risking killing herself for your entertainment, I want to see you try to do a back flip ten feet in the air and land on your neck first. If you're not willing to do that, then you don't have to right to criticize Ms. Biles for not wanting to do the same.

From what the other elite gymnasts (i.e., people who actually have performed at high levels and know what they're talking about), the mental block Ms. Biles is currently struggling against could very well cause her to land on her neck. This block isn't something that Ms. Biles brought on to herself nor is it something that she can just wish away. It's a serious issue that affects one of the key senses that allows her to perform safely at high levels.

I'll make this even simpler for those of you slow thinkers to understand. You've all probably been driving for years now. You can get behind the wheel of a car and you'd feel pretty confident you can drive to/from work or the market safely. Now imagine you've suddenly gone blind. Are you as confident about driving? Would you be willing to get behind the wheel of your car and drive to/from work or the market? Do you think you can safely perform the same task you've done for years? What if your family/workmates were counting on you to drive to the market/work to pickup/drop off something super important? Would you refuse to drive or would you "just suck it up and do it" knowing full well you'd be endangering your own life to do something when there were others available who could take over and do a comparable (even if less stellar) job?

Self-sacrifice can be noble. But unnecessary self-sacrifice is just plain foolish.
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01Bear
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5:49a, 7/29/21
Also for those down on the Olympics for not delivering this year, maybe it's time you stopped being so provincial and expanded your worldview a bit. Instead of letting NBC dictate what portion of the Olympic games you think is important (and therefore watch), which is usually dominated by sports where America is expected to win or at least medal, learn to enjoy other sports.

This past week I've been watching Olympic judo and taekwondo. The US won zero medals in judo and one gold medal in taekwondo. NBC has not covered any of this. But I've seen some really great matches between some of the highest level competitors out there. They've more than met my expectations (though, based on the camera angles used in the broadcast, the director of the taekwondo camera operators has probably never seen a match in his life prior to these games) and I've been thoroughly enjoying these Olympics.

Alternatively, since Cal has a stories rugby program that many of you like to pretend to care about, you could've watched the US men's rugby team achieve its highest ever placement in a global tournament. Heck, there's even a Cal connection, as former Cal Bear Danny Barrett competed for the USA.
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socaliganbear
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 5:58a, 7/29/21
wifeisafurd said:
Be happy to know it is now all Suni Lee with an occasional shot of the photogenic Jade Carey, who is the favorite in the floor exercise, thank you NBS. Simone who?


Gold.
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Goobear
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In reply to okaydo • 6:18a, 7/29/21
okaydo said:
https://slate.com/culture/2021/07/simone-biles-nbc-olympics-gymnastics-attention-pressure-responsibility.html





Exactly my point.
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operbear
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In reply to socaliganbear • 6:30a, 7/29/21
socaliganbear said:
Maybe Simone, the best to ever do the thing she does, will pave the way for the next Richard Sherman or any other male player to "take care of y'all mentals" and do what she did, and the culture war of the week talking heads will have to just deal with it.

To me, the questions isn't "oh why the double standard, won't someone think of the guys" but rather, what can sports culture in particular to do make sure professional male athletes feel empowered to take a break and put their mental health and well being first.
That would be the end of professional football.
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bearister
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In reply to bearister • 7:08a, 7/29/21
bearister said:
When she was interviewed two days ago after the prelims and said that for the first time in her life she is afraid of getting hurt. My immediate thought: Some young fearless Olympian psychopath from another country is now thinking: "I got a shot at the Gold after all "


I would like to amend and delete the terms "psychopath" and "another country":

Olympic women's gymnastics all-around live updates -- Team USA's Suni Lee wins gold


https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31906779/olympic-women-gymnastics-all-live-updates-team-usa-suni-lee-wins-gold
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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mbBear
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In reply to 01Bear • 8:15a, 7/29/21
01Bear said:
Also for those down on the Olympics for not delivering this year, maybe it's time you stopped being so provincial and expanded your worldview a bit. Instead of letting NBC dictate what portion of the Olympic games you think is important (and therefore watch), which is usually dominated by sports where America is expected to win or at least medal, learn to enjoy other sports.

This past week I've been watching Olympic judo and taekwondo. The US won zero medals in judo and one gold medal in taekwondo. NBC has not covered any of this. But I've seen some really great matches between some of the highest level competitors out there. They've more than met my expectations (though, based on the camera angles used in the broadcast, the director of the taekwondo camera operators has probably never seen a match in his life prior to these games) and I've been thoroughly enjoying these Olympics.

Alternatively, since Cal has a stories rugby program that many of you like to pretend to care about, you could've watched the US men's rugby team achieve its highest ever placement in a global tournament. Heck, there's even a Cal connection, as former Cal Bear Danny Barrett competed for the USA.
If you watched, it's because NBC showed it. If you are making the distinction of being on the NBC Broadcast Network, and/or Prime Time, okay. But for those of watching off of the NBC app, it doesn't matter much.
FYI: USA Network is owned by NBC. There has never been this much live programming....
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sketchy9
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In reply to BearDown2o15 • 8:16a, 7/29/21
BearDown2o15 said:
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend watching "The Weight of Gold," it shines a light on this very subject.

Regarding those who are trying to compare Brady pulling out of a game vs Biles being so out of it she didn't do the correct routine, the two are more comparable. The fact that Biles landed that vault without having a career ending injury is amazing.

I think the problem is, too many critics don't understand how one wrong move in gymnastics can cause a life altering injury.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/07/29/simone-biles-larry-nassar-fbi/

Tom Brady is also not an equivalent comparison to Simone Biles, unless Bill Belicheck had hired a trainer who sexually assaulted him and then tried to cover it up.
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