calumnus said:

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movielover said:

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"That list doesn't include Olympic and NCAA Champion Maggie MacNeil, who committed to transfer to Cal as a graduate next season, but who after the McKeever fallout ultimately chose LSU for her 5th year."

https://swimswam.com/cal-all-americans-isabelle-stadden-and-ayla-spitz-enter-ncaa-transfer-portal/

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Exactly why I said above when this first broke that Cal needed to meet with the swimmers and quickly decide whether they should move on from McKeever regardless of whether an investigation would find serious wrongdoing that would warrant firing for cause.

All the handwringing about "the donors"? I am sure they are not happy seeing the program implode.

Again, this is all at the feet of Knowlton (really Christ for hiring him).

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Jesse Moore is a nice guy, but his coaching resume is weak for an HC.
At this rate of transfer, Cal may not have enough members to field a team.
5 Cal women have hit the transfer portal so far.

Two-Time Cal Pac-12 Finalist Forrest Frazier Enters Transfer Portal (swimswam.com)

I would suggest that all Knowlton cares about is the liability that the University faces should a group of swimmer's file suit against it, as well as McKeever. Hence, the six-month traditional style HR investigation.

Agreed about Christ.
And extending Knowlton out thru 2029 sure isnt a confidence inspiring reflection on our Chancellor.

For what its worth, although I don't have inside information on this case, I've seen a number of campus investigations up close and know what guidance the campus legal affairs office gives to people in leadership positions in such situations. Knowlton will have been advised that he must remain impartial because otherwise it can be claimed that any findings from the investigation will have been tainted by prejudice from the AD. I also know that in all such cases the campus immediately puts the accusers in touch with campus staff who are trained to support victims.

GoCal80 said:

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For what its worth, although I don't have inside information on this case, I've seen a number of campus investigations up close and know what guidance the campus legal affairs office gives to people in leadership positions in such situations. Knowlton will have been advised that he must remain impartial because otherwise it can be claimed that any findings from the investigation will have been tainted by prejudice from the AD. I also know that in all such cases the campus immediately puts the accusers in touch with campus staff who are trained to support victims.

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You do know that the University's investigation is being conducted by an outside law firm (Munger & Tolles) right?

DiabloWags said:

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GoCal80 said:

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For what its worth, although I don't have inside information on this case, I've seen a number of campus investigations up close and know what guidance the campus legal affairs office gives to people in leadership positions in such situations. Knowlton will have been advised that he must remain impartial because otherwise it can be claimed that any findings from the investigation will have been tainted by prejudice from the AD. I also know that in all such cases the campus immediately puts the accusers in touch with campus staff who are trained to support victims.

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You do know that the University's investigation is being conducted by an outside law firm (Munger & Tolles) right?

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Yes. The irony in such situations is that if the AD said something public to the effect that he believes the allegations, it could actually hurt the accusers case against the coach and could give TM ammunition to sue Cal.

Man, that recent CC Times article was tough to read.

And I'm sure TM will never be back as HC but Cal needs to do everything by the book to make sure their legal bases are covered.

GoCal80 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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GoCal80 said:

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For what its worth, although I don't have inside information on this case, I've seen a number of campus investigations up close and know what guidance the campus legal affairs office gives to people in leadership positions in such situations. Knowlton will have been advised that he must remain impartial because otherwise it can be claimed that any findings from the investigation will have been tainted by prejudice from the AD. I also know that in all such cases the campus immediately puts the accusers in touch with campus staff who are trained to support victims.

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You do know that the University's investigation is being conducted by an outside law firm (Munger & Tolles) right?

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Yes. The irony in such situations is that if the AD said something public to the effect that he believes the allegations, it could actually hurt the accusers case against the coach and could give TM ammunition to sue Cal.

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The university needed/needs to prioritize the student athletes. That is both the right thing to do AND best avoids lawsuits against the university. If the student athletes want a new coach, do it. Don't disrupt their swimming careers further. Get them counseling.

Stop worrying about TM. She is not an ordinary university employee. TM has an employment contract that will determine what she is or isn't owed. Just don't discuss her case until the investigation is over.

If need be, have open campus tryouts. Principles > prizes.

NCAA Champion and 3x Pac-12 Champion Emily Gantriis details her last season at Cal 2021-2022
She has entered the transfer portal and will most likely transfer to Wisconsin or Louisville.

NCAA champion details Teri McKeever's bullying last season at Cal Orange County Register (ocregister.com)

Ugly. A mini revolt that went unnoticed, as well as a 45% transfer rate.

Why won't the writer identify what alleged racial epithet was used?

movielover said:

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Ugly. A mini revolt that went unnoticed, as well as a 45% transfer rate.

Why won't the writer identify what alleged racial epithet was used?

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I have no inside info, but maybe it's better for one side to leave some mystery there, rather than come out and reveal that she called someone a "honky"?

A stark silence of Cal swimmers and colleagues (dailycal.org)

DiabloWags said:

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A stark silence of Cal swimmers and colleagues (dailycal.org)

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These are coaching strategies guessed at (not your words DiabloWags, the Daily Cal) but even if a strategy to set aside the producers, it was noticeably absent of help for those striving. I guess it didn't work for many.

The bigger point is after watching the Warriors last night, each member was a contributor to a team. With what we hear from recruits of JWilcox there is a spirit of family, of caring. These are the images I would rather our Bear teams projected. Nothing wrong with some tough love in coaching, but TMs sounded a bit like a calculated do one dirt strategy. Open minds, we shall see. Personally I don't feel those unwilling to speak at this time are in the wrong or are suspicious. But journalism asks questions to imply answers---over and over.

OdontoBear66 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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A stark silence of Cal swimmers and colleagues (dailycal.org)

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These are coaching strategies guessed at (not your words DiabloWags, the Daily Cal) but even if a strategy to set aside the producers, it was noticeably absent of help for those striving. I guess it didn't work for many.

The bigger point is after watching the Warriors last night, each member was a contributor to a team. With what we hear from recruits of JWilcox there is a spirit of family, of caring. These are the images I would rather our Bear teams projected. Nothing wrong with some tough love in coaching, but TMs sounded a bit like a calculated do one dirt strategy. Open minds, we shall see. Personally I don't feel those unwilling to speak at this time are in the wrong or are suspicious. But journalism asks questions to imply answers---over and over.

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Swimmers who were "favorites" of McKeever, went along with the program, had great personal success and said nothing while she bullied "the weak" (and maybe even joined in at McKeever's urging) can be feeling a lot of different emotions now that this has come out from guilt, embarrassment, to fear, to denial to defensiveness and loyalty to McKeever, all of which might make them reluctant to say anything at this point.

I think it's not accurate to say that the coach allegedly harassed "the weak". (Possibly she picked on the young.)

Ms. Gantriis ranks seventh in school history in the 50 freestyle - 21.90 time at the NCAA Championships in 2021, and helped the Bears set three team relay records. Ms. Akakabota's 50 freestyle time this year ranked eighth fastest on the team - amazing considering that she only started swimming competitively in high school. She is a mechanical engineering major who has played in Carnegie Hall (piano). An accomplished young lady... all of them.

I'm sure the investigators will be looking to see if there was any alleged toxic behavior directed at any other African American student-athletes.

movielover said:

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I think it's not accurate to say that the coach allegedly harassed "the weak". (Possibly she picked on the young.)

Ms. Gantriis ranks seventh in school history in the 50 freestyle - 21.90 time at the NCAA Championships in 2021, and helped the Bears set three team relay records. Ms. Akakabota's 50 freestyle time this year ranked eighth fastest on the team - amazing considering that she only started swimming competitively in high school. She is a mechanical engineering major who has played in Carnegie Hall (piano). An accomplished young lady... all of them.

I'm sure the investigators will be looking to see if there was any alleged toxic behavior directed at any other African American student-athletes.

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That is why "the weak" was in quotes. The choice for bullying in these situations can be those who might be vulnerable, easily ostracized by the group: a different ethnicity, sexuality, but also be anybody who stands up to the bully or is not obedient (ie the strong).

calumnus said:

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movielover said:

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I think it's not accurate to say that the coach allegedly harassed "the weak". (Possibly she picked on the young.)

Ms. Gantriis ranks seventh in school history in the 50 freestyle - 21.90 time at the NCAA Championships in 2021, and helped the Bears set three team relay records. Ms. Akakabota's 50 freestyle time this year ranked eighth fastest on the team - amazing considering that she only started swimming competitively in high school. She is a mechanical engineering major who has played in Carnegie Hall (piano). An accomplished young lady... all of them.

I'm sure the investigators will be looking to see if there was any alleged toxic behavior directed at any other African American student-athletes.

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That is why "the weak" was in quotes. The choice for bullying in these situations can be those who might be vulnerable, easily ostracized by the group: a different ethnicity, sexuality, but also be anybody who stands up to the bully or is not obedient (ie the strong).

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It could also be possible that she bullied the African American swimmers because their attitudes did not conform to what McKeever idealized in her swimmers (just like Gantriis when she stood up for the bullied).

USA women's Swimming along with USA Gymnastics are loaded with abuse allegations for years across the entire country. It has been avoided and covered up for years and Cal swimming finally got caught up. The women's swim program alone may never recover, and that's the sad price that has to be paid.

72CalBear said:

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USA women's Swimming along with USA Gymnastics are loaded with abuse allegations for years across the entire country. It has been avoided and covered up for years and Cal swimming finally got caught up. The women's swim program alone may never recover, and that's the sad price that has to be paid.

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Abuse is a generic term the covers a number of evils some worse than others.
Sexual abuse being the worse in my mind; racial being next.
Bullying has historically been an accepted form of abuse in all military training and many sports training regimens
That doesn't make it OK. But IMO it is not as bad as sexual or racial abuse.
So I would like clarification on what type of abuse we are talking about.

GivemTheAxe said:

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72CalBear said:

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USA women's Swimming along with USA Gymnastics are loaded with abuse allegations for years across the entire country. It has been avoided and covered up for years and Cal swimming finally got caught up. The women's swim program alone may never recover, and that's the sad price that has to be paid.

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Abuse is a generic term the covers a number of evils some worse than others.
Sexual abuse being the worse in my mind; racial being next.
Bullying has historically been an accepted form of abuse in all military training and many sports training regimens
That doesn't make it OK. But IMO it is not as bad as sexual or racial abuse.

So I would like clarification on what type of abuse we are talking about.

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Does the name Mohamed Muqtar mean anything to you?
That might help you answer your question.

DiabloWags said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

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72CalBear said:

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USA women's Swimming along with USA Gymnastics are loaded with abuse allegations for years across the entire country. It has been avoided and covered up for years and Cal swimming finally got caught up. The women's swim program alone may never recover, and that's the sad price that has to be paid.

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Abuse is a generic term the covers a number of evils some worse than others.
Sexual abuse being the worse in my mind; racial being next.
Bullying has historically been an accepted form of abuse in all military training and many sports training regimens
That doesn't make it OK. But IMO it is not as bad as sexual or racial abuse.

So I would like clarification on what type of abuse we are talking about.

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Does the name Mohamed Muqtar mean anything to you? That might help you answer your question.

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Wasn't there a longtime Cal Diving coach dismissed for sexual harassment too? This was some 5 yrs ago. He was sexually harassing some of the male divers (from my recollection).

define bullying and verbal abuse

Obear073akaSMFan said:

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Wasn't there a longtime Cal Diving coach dismissed for sexual harassment too? This was some 5 yrs ago. He was sexually harassing some of the male divers (from my recollection).

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Yes, but I believe it had nothing to do with Cal athletes.
Todd Mulzet.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2016/04/06/cal-diving-coach-accused-sexual-harassment/82705088/

BBBGOBEARS said:

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define bullying and verbal abuse

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https://swimswam.com/cal-swimmers-say-mckeever-learned-their-traumas-at-retreats-then-exploited-them/

Salon article: When abuse scandals hit, colleges hire "independent" investigators and the cover-up begins

Third-party investigation of college abuse scandals: A dubious industry whose main job is to limit the damage

By Irvin Muchnick
Irvin Muchnick, whose most recent book is "Concussion Inc.: The End of Football as We Know It."

https://www.salon.com/2022/06/20/colleges-hire-independent-investigators-after-abuse-scandals--and-not-much-happens/

bearsandgiants said:

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Is Knowlton going to avoid going to football pregame events this fall? Because if he's not, he's going to get an earful from everyone imaginable, and he deserves nothing better.

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I get that...and Knowlton has guests in the box on a game by game basis, it's not just what "pre-game" events he chooses to attend. And when I have gotten to be up in the box, it's because I am the guest of a donor of women's sports (not swimming), so it's not just about football people. I guess he can say he can't say anything because of "legal".....
But beyond that, recent article quoted women from long before Knowlton was on the scene. So, plenty of blame to cite long before JK....how did that go on? Success was valued more than the athletes? And how was it that McKeever was able to recruit at the level she achieved, long after the years mentioned? Recruits weren't scared away, there wasn't talk in the swimming community?
The more stories, the more amazing (not in a good way) this tale becomes....

For what it's worth fire Mckeever and hire Tracy Slusser from the farm.

Carol Felton

100%

SoCalie said:

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Carol Felton

100%

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Could we get her and would she be interested?

I don't see why not - it's her alma mater. I feel like it would be her ultimate (coaching) dream to do so. Last time I checked, her brother still lives in the Bay Area, too.