Atlantic Coast Conference ready to merge with The Pac4

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DoubtfulBear
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In reply to cal83dls79 • 7:55a, 8/10/23
cal83dls79 said:
DoubtfulBear said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools.
How about this for a reality check - we are absolutely not in the same tier as Stanford. By any record - conference champs, Rose Bowl wins, overall record, even Big Game record, Stanford is better than us. We've gotten lucky with a few good coaches and a few elite players over the years but we've haven't had consistent outperformance since the 50s
you are aptly named.
Do you know how many cal football players have played in the NFL? You don't and you have no clue as to why those kids came to cal. Not to play against Davis but to face SC, UCLA and Oregon. Not Bakersfield
We're talking about college football success right now, why are you trying to move the goal posts and talk about future success in the NFL?

Look, this board has been in la la land for a very long time, probably it's entire existence. You sunshine pumpers finally got a dose of reality with the recent realignment misadventures, but you are still clinging to any shred of evidence that we are a top football school. We are not. We are dominant in academics and that's the reason most of us came here, but we don't have a rich history of winning in college football. The sooner you come to terms with reality the better, because I think there's a very real chance that Stanford leaves us behind.
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CAL4LIFE
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In reply to berserkeley • 8:00a, 8/10/23
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.
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cal83dls79
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In reply to Bobodeluxe • 8:06a, 8/10/23
Bobodeluxe said:
cal83dls79 said:
DoubtfulBear said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools.
How about this for a reality check - we are absolutely not in the same tier as Stanford. By any record - conference champs, Rose Bowl wins, overall record, even Big Game record, Stanford is better than us. We've gotten lucky with a few good coaches and a few elite players over the years but we've haven't had consistent outperformance since the 50s
yeah so let's throw in the towel. Absolute defeatism. As I've said, this dilemma has exposed true football fans and fans that want to see their athletes compete at the highest level vs those that have their kids play soccer and feel great about participation trophies.
"True football fans" didn't show up to help fund the Memorial rebuild in significant numbers, because there aren't significant numbers. Just do the math.
try to rebuild a stadium or build a new one. Cost? Old Memorial was a joke.
I actually have a table in my dining room built from the cal wooden benches from the Wooden Duck
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
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golden sloth
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In reply to 6956bear • 8:10a, 8/10/23
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!
It seems to me that if Cal and Stanford want in to the ACC they will need to take a severe financial haircut. Possibly accept not having voting rights for a few years as well. Notre Dame wants their cake and eat it too. I get it. They value the independence their brand allows them to have.

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools. If Cal wants into a P4 conference they are going to have to accept really poor financial terms or perhaps even pay their way like SMU offered. Their is no appetite to add programs unless they add value. Value means revenue. TV revenue or increased shares.

The CFP is likley to reconvene next week to determine how the CFP berths are going to be determined with the loss of the P12. If you want to see ND squirm then make CFP selections come from conference affiliated programs only. They will join a league yesterday if that happens. Until then they are staying independent. Can't say I blame them much. Their pushing for Cal and Stanford was nice. The response from the ACC in so many words was well then join. Ain't happening.

Cal is facing relegation. What is Cal willing to do to avoid it? Cal needs an answer from ACC commissioner on what is the price Cal has to pay to get the votes. Same with the B1G. I doubt the B1G moves any unless the ACC suddenly gets an appetite to add Cal and Stanford.

The reality is that Cal has already been relegated. They my be able to continue if somehow the ACC or B1G throws them a lifeline. Barring that Cal will not be facing relegation. They more likely are facing extinction.


You know, I dont like promoting stanford but look at their record over the last several years:

2022 - 3 - 9 (followed by a coaching change)
2021 - 3 - 9
2020 - 4 - 2
2019 - 4 - 8
2018 - 9 - 4
2017 - 9 - 5
2016 - 10 - 3
2015 - 12 - 2
2014 - 8 - 5
2013 - 11 - 3
2012 - 12 - 2

If Stanford gets relegated as well, it wont be because of their record (unless you think a two year down turn followed by a coaching change is 'not taking football seriously'). I dont know how anyone can claim they dont care about football.
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berserkeley
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In reply to CAL4LIFE • 8:31a, 8/10/23
CAL4LIFE said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.

Quote:
ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford.
This is what I was replying to. It's not about feeling sorry for Stanford. They feel sorry for Stanford the same way Greg Sankey feels sorry for Stanford. ND isn't doing this to help Stanford; they're doing this to help themselves.
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6956bear
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In reply to golden sloth • 8:33a, 8/10/23
golden sloth said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!
It seems to me that if Cal and Stanford want in to the ACC they will need to take a severe financial haircut. Possibly accept not having voting rights for a few years as well. Notre Dame wants their cake and eat it too. I get it. They value the independence their brand allows them to have.

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools. If Cal wants into a P4 conference they are going to have to accept really poor financial terms or perhaps even pay their way like SMU offered. Their is no appetite to add programs unless they add value. Value means revenue. TV revenue or increased shares.

The CFP is likley to reconvene next week to determine how the CFP berths are going to be determined with the loss of the P12. If you want to see ND squirm then make CFP selections come from conference affiliated programs only. They will join a league yesterday if that happens. Until then they are staying independent. Can't say I blame them much. Their pushing for Cal and Stanford was nice. The response from the ACC in so many words was well then join. Ain't happening.

Cal is facing relegation. What is Cal willing to do to avoid it? Cal needs an answer from ACC commissioner on what is the price Cal has to pay to get the votes. Same with the B1G. I doubt the B1G moves any unless the ACC suddenly gets an appetite to add Cal and Stanford.

The reality is that Cal has already been relegated. They my be able to continue if somehow the ACC or B1G throws them a lifeline. Barring that Cal will not be facing relegation. They more likely are facing extinction.


You know, I dont like promoting stanford but look at their record over the last several years:

2022 - 3 - 9 (followed by a coaching change)
2021 - 3 - 9
2020 - 4 - 2
2019 - 4 - 8
2018 - 9 - 4
2017 - 9 - 5
2016 - 10 - 3
2015 - 12 - 2
2014 - 8 - 5
2013 - 11 - 3
2012 - 12 - 2

If Stanford gets relegated as well, it wont be because of their record (unless you think a two year down turn followed by a coaching change is 'not taking football seriously'). I dont know how anyone can claim they dont care about football.
It is not about Stanford's on field performance. It is about eyeballs. They draw flies. Few folks watch. Stanford and Cal get decent ratings when they play a blueblood program like ND or USC. But when the play WSU or UA nobody watches.

In the B1G and ACC their mid tier programs fans tune in at a much higher rate. This is about what the market says you are worth.

The market is speaking. Loudly. They do not value either program. Stanford a bit more than Cal, but really nobody watches them even when they decent.

The outlook is very bleak. Hoping for a miracle. Being in the Pacific Time Zone does not help. That late window of games is not a strong enough market to pull the 2 Bay Area schools over the finish line. They need ESPN to agree to pay more to the ACC. Do not see that happening. Not for these 2 schools.
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philly1121
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In reply to berserkeley • 10:01a, 8/10/23
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.

Quote:
ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford.
This is what I was replying to. It's not about feeling sorry for Stanford. They feel sorry for Stanford the same way Greg Sankey feels sorry for Stanford. ND isn't doing this to help Stanford; they're doing this to help themselves.
Exactly. The ACC membership is saying no to us and Stanford because ND isn't willing to put some skin in the game and join the conference with football. Its actually quite hypocritical what ND is doing - pushing two teams to join the conference for football but not joining it themselves. The ACC is seeing right through it.
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nikeykid
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In reply to philly1121 • 10:12a, 8/10/23
on the other hand, ACC might be the next pac12 if they don't expand preemptively. hopefully the presidents see that too (unless they already have one foot out the door ahem FSU)
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Oski87
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In reply to 6956bear • 10:28a, 8/10/23
6956bear said:
golden sloth said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!
It seems to me that if Cal and Stanford want in to the ACC they will need to take a severe financial haircut. Possibly accept not having voting rights for a few years as well. Notre Dame wants their cake and eat it too. I get it. They value the independence their brand allows them to have.

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools. If Cal wants into a P4 conference they are going to have to accept really poor financial terms or perhaps even pay their way like SMU offered. Their is no appetite to add programs unless they add value. Value means revenue. TV revenue or increased shares.

The CFP is likley to reconvene next week to determine how the CFP berths are going to be determined with the loss of the P12. If you want to see ND squirm then make CFP selections come from conference affiliated programs only. They will join a league yesterday if that happens. Until then they are staying independent. Can't say I blame them much. Their pushing for Cal and Stanford was nice. The response from the ACC in so many words was well then join. Ain't happening.

Cal is facing relegation. What is Cal willing to do to avoid it? Cal needs an answer from ACC commissioner on what is the price Cal has to pay to get the votes. Same with the B1G. I doubt the B1G moves any unless the ACC suddenly gets an appetite to add Cal and Stanford.

The reality is that Cal has already been relegated. They my be able to continue if somehow the ACC or B1G throws them a lifeline. Barring that Cal will not be facing relegation. They more likely are facing extinction.


You know, I dont like promoting stanford but look at their record over the last several years:

2022 - 3 - 9 (followed by a coaching change)
2021 - 3 - 9
2020 - 4 - 2
2019 - 4 - 8
2018 - 9 - 4
2017 - 9 - 5
2016 - 10 - 3
2015 - 12 - 2
2014 - 8 - 5
2013 - 11 - 3
2012 - 12 - 2

If Stanford gets relegated as well, it wont be because of their record (unless you think a two year down turn followed by a coaching change is 'not taking football seriously'). I dont know how anyone can claim they dont care about football.
It is not about Stanford's on field performance. It is about eyeballs. They draw flies. Few folks watch. Stanford and Cal get decent ratings when they play a blueblood program like ND or USC. But when the play WSU or UA nobody watches.

In the B1G and ACC their mid tier programs fans tune in at a much higher rate. This is about what the market says you are worth.

The market is speaking. Loudly. They do not value either program. Stanford a bit more than Cal, but really nobody watches them even when they decent.

The outlook is very bleak. Hoping for a miracle. Being in the Pacific Time Zone does not help. That late window of games is not a strong enough market to pull the 2 Bay Area schools over the finish line. They need ESPN to agree to pay more to the ACC. Do not see that happening. Not for these 2 schools.
To be honest, Cal and Stanford are middle tier when looking at ACC viewership rates. Cal would be 6th and Stanford is 8th. The average 800,000 viewers for Cal games is close to what North Carolina gets.

The issue for the ACC is not our viewership rates or anything else other than we are 3000 miles away and they would have to travel here. That is unpalatable to a lot of them for very good reasons. Frankly Cal playing Boston College will draw about the same as Cal playing Arizona or Colorado (or Illinois or Indiana for that matter). Cal playing big draws like Michigan, USC, Oregon, etc get fans in the seats and viewers on the TV. Cal vs ND last year had over 3 million viewers. And drew well locally - that is why ND is in favor of us as well - we represented there better than the furd had in recent years in terms of local folks at the game.

Regardless, the Big 10 did not value us. The Big 12 hates us and it was untenable for us to go there. The ACC is the only hope and unless we do not make it worth their while to travel, then there is not a lot we can do. But we certainly can try to do that. One would hope that making the ACC network available for full dollar amounts in California could do that. Texas as well with SMU. Wondering how ESPN would look at that - carriage rights still have some clout in this last round of cable TV.
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calumnus
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In reply to Oski87 • 12:34a, 8/11/23
Oski87 said:
6956bear said:
golden sloth said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!
It seems to me that if Cal and Stanford want in to the ACC they will need to take a severe financial haircut. Possibly accept not having voting rights for a few years as well. Notre Dame wants their cake and eat it too. I get it. They value the independence their brand allows them to have.

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools. If Cal wants into a P4 conference they are going to have to accept really poor financial terms or perhaps even pay their way like SMU offered. Their is no appetite to add programs unless they add value. Value means revenue. TV revenue or increased shares.

The CFP is likley to reconvene next week to determine how the CFP berths are going to be determined with the loss of the P12. If you want to see ND squirm then make CFP selections come from conference affiliated programs only. They will join a league yesterday if that happens. Until then they are staying independent. Can't say I blame them much. Their pushing for Cal and Stanford was nice. The response from the ACC in so many words was well then join. Ain't happening.

Cal is facing relegation. What is Cal willing to do to avoid it? Cal needs an answer from ACC commissioner on what is the price Cal has to pay to get the votes. Same with the B1G. I doubt the B1G moves any unless the ACC suddenly gets an appetite to add Cal and Stanford.

The reality is that Cal has already been relegated. They my be able to continue if somehow the ACC or B1G throws them a lifeline. Barring that Cal will not be facing relegation. They more likely are facing extinction.


You know, I dont like promoting stanford but look at their record over the last several years:

2022 - 3 - 9 (followed by a coaching change)
2021 - 3 - 9
2020 - 4 - 2
2019 - 4 - 8
2018 - 9 - 4
2017 - 9 - 5
2016 - 10 - 3
2015 - 12 - 2
2014 - 8 - 5
2013 - 11 - 3
2012 - 12 - 2

If Stanford gets relegated as well, it wont be because of their record (unless you think a two year down turn followed by a coaching change is 'not taking football seriously'). I dont know how anyone can claim they dont care about football.
It is not about Stanford's on field performance. It is about eyeballs. They draw flies. Few folks watch. Stanford and Cal get decent ratings when they play a blueblood program like ND or USC. But when the play WSU or UA nobody watches.

In the B1G and ACC their mid tier programs fans tune in at a much higher rate. This is about what the market says you are worth.

The market is speaking. Loudly. They do not value either program. Stanford a bit more than Cal, but really nobody watches them even when they decent.

The outlook is very bleak. Hoping for a miracle. Being in the Pacific Time Zone does not help. That late window of games is not a strong enough market to pull the 2 Bay Area schools over the finish line. They need ESPN to agree to pay more to the ACC. Do not see that happening. Not for these 2 schools.
To be honest, Cal and Stanford are middle tier when looking at ACC viewership rates. Cal would be 6th and Stanford is 8th. The average 800,000 viewers for Cal games is close to what North Carolina gets.

The issue for the ACC is not our viewership rates or anything else other than we are 3000 miles away and they would have to travel here. That is unpalatable to a lot of them for very good reasons. Frankly Cal playing Boston College will draw about the same as Cal playing Arizona or Colorado (or Illinois or Indiana for that matter). Cal playing big draws like Michigan, USC, Oregon, etc get fans in the seats and viewers on the TV. Cal vs ND last year had over 3 million viewers. And drew well locally - that is why ND is in favor of us as well - we represented there better than the furd had in recent years in terms of local folks at the game.

Regardless, the Big 10 did not value us. The Big 12 hates us and it was untenable for us to go there. The ACC is the only hope and unless we do not make it worth their while to travel, then there is not a lot we can do. But we certainly can try to do that. One would hope that making the ACC network available for full dollar amounts in California could do that. Texas as well with SMU. Wondering how ESPN would look at that - carriage rights still have some clout in this last round of cable TV.


The ACC plays an 8 game conference schedule. Assuming 1 game is the Big Game, tge best split is Cal and Stanford each fly east 3 times and host 4 ACC teams each season. That allows for one PST ACC game every week for 9 weeks.

Thus, if Cal and Stanford joined the ACC for football only, the current 15 teams would each travel to the Bay Area once every two seasons. Cal and Stanford would each have only three 5 hour flights each season.

A 5 hour flight once every two years is not why the 4 schools in the ACC that oppose our admission are doing so.

The main opposition is from schools that want out. Especially FSU and Clemson. They are using this as another club, they are being obstructionist to get out or get more money.

I honestly think the other ACC schools would be wise to just let the malcontents pay their exit fees in installments. Annual payments over the remaining life of their GORs. Let them go to the SEC and pay the ACC annually. Then add Cal, Stanford and SMU and it sounds like eventually maybe Notre Dame.

Oh, and it is NOT the B1G that "doesn't value us." That would be Fox.
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to berserkeley • 6:43a, 8/11/23
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.

Quote:
ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford.
This is what I was replying to. It's not about feeling sorry for Stanford. They feel sorry for Stanford the same way Greg Sankey feels sorry for Stanford. ND isn't doing this to help Stanford; they're doing this to help themselves.
Okay, they're doing this for self-interest and perhaps even with a little more zeal because (I say this with some irony), they developed relationships with Furd and Cal administrators due to football games.
What is the problem? Isn't that one they are paid to do - look out for the interests of their school?
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berserkeley
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 9:09a, 8/11/23
wifeisafurd said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.

Quote:
ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford.
This is what I was replying to. It's not about feeling sorry for Stanford. They feel sorry for Stanford the same way Greg Sankey feels sorry for Stanford. ND isn't doing this to help Stanford; they're doing this to help themselves.
Okay, they're doing this for self-interest and perhaps even with a little more zeal because (I say this with some irony), they developed relationships with Furd and Cal administrators due to football games.
What is the problem? Isn't that one they are paid to do - look out for the interests of their school?


I didn't say it was a problem. In fact, before it was leaked that ND was in our corner, I posted that I was grateful they had a vote because helping us get into the ACC would be in their own interest. Obviously everyone is acting in their own self interest except, arguably, Cal and Stanford who have clung to long dead ideals of college athletic amateurism to their own detriment.
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cal83dls79
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9:11a, 8/11/23
It's over. ACC deal not happening. So y'all can go back and plan for the MWC. Well done!
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
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southseasbear
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In reply to cal83dls79 • 9:18a, 8/11/23
cal83dls79 said:
DoubtfulBear said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools.
How about this for a reality check - we are absolutely not in the same tier as Stanford. By any record - conference champs, Rose Bowl wins, overall record, even Big Game record, Stanford is better than us. We've gotten lucky with a few good coaches and a few elite players over the years but we've haven't had consistent outperformance since the 50s
you are aptly named.
Do you know how many cal football players have played in the NFL? You don't and you have no clue as to why those kids came to cal. Not to play against Davis but to face SC, UCLA and Oregon. Not Bakersfield
That means we recruit good players but don't hire coaches with the ability to coach good players well enough to win games.
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southseasbear
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In reply to wifeisafurd • 9:20a, 8/11/23
wifeisafurd said:

Okay, they're doing this for self-interest and perhaps even with a little more zeal because (I say this with some irony), they developed relationships with Furd and Cal administrators due to football games.
What is the problem? Isn't that one they are paid to do - look out for the interests of their school?
What a novel concept. I wish we had a Chancellor and AD who acted in the best interests of our school.
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nikeykid
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In reply to cal83dls79 • 9:55a, 8/11/23
agree, it looks bleak at best now. presidents were supposed to have a meeting yesterday but absolutely no reports of it actually happening. now the reports are that pac4 is trying to rebuild itself. yikes.
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oski003
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In reply to southseasbear • 9:59a, 8/11/23
southseasbear said:
cal83dls79 said:
DoubtfulBear said:
6956bear said:
nikeykid said:




not all hope is lost yet on the ACC front, talks continue today. ND still very much in our corner, of course they are trying to keep the ACC together so they can continue to be independent but we'll take the marriage of convenience!

Reality check. Cal is a MWC level athletics program in the revenue sports. Stanford not much better if any. Both are Ivy league academic schools.
How about this for a reality check - we are absolutely not in the same tier as Stanford. By any record - conference champs, Rose Bowl wins, overall record, even Big Game record, Stanford is better than us. We've gotten lucky with a few good coaches and a few elite players over the years but we've haven't had consistent outperformance since the 50s
you are aptly named.
Do you know how many cal football players have played in the NFL? You don't and you have no clue as to why those kids came to cal. Not to play against Davis but to face SC, UCLA and Oregon. Not Bakersfield
That means we recruit good players but don't hire coaches with the ability to coach good players well enough to win games.


Players excelling at Cal become elite when they aren't disadvantaged by rigorous schoolwork and inflexible professors and can practice 24/7.
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Econ141
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10:45a, 8/11/23
Now the B1G is just rubbing it in:

https://www.si.com/college/nebraska/football/report-future-big-ten-football-championships-heading-to-las-vegas

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phyrux
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11:12a, 8/11/23
The ACC is in a full blown civil war right now with Florida State. I seriously doubt they are going to entertain adding Cal and Stanford with the travel and financial issues involved until their internal issues are sorted.
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HateRed
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11:23a, 8/11/23
What do you think they've been doing the last few days?
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SoFlaBear
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In reply to nikeykid • 11:26a, 8/11/23
nikeykid said:
agree, it looks bleak at best now. presidents were supposed to have a meeting yesterday but absolutely no reports of it actually happening. now the reports are that pac4 is trying to rebuild itself. yikes.
Wilner had a piece about that, but it's for subscribers only and I don't have a link. There are several interesting possibilities that might make that a short-term interesting solution. Like keeping hold of the PAC automatic bids for the NCAA basketball tournament and perhaps some bowl tie-ins. The problem is we need a) the remaining four schools to go along and b) to get at least two more partners. U Conn, Tulane, SMU might be possibilities, and then c) find schools to schedule more OOC games with.

There are a bunch of interesting questions being discussed, like who gets control of the PAC's cash-on-hand? Will the 8 teams that leave be entitled to media payouts? Can the four remaining teams nullify this year's Pac 12 football champion (apparently there is a precedent for this in the Colonial Conference).

This might ultimately be the path forward for the next few years. Nobody seems to love the idea of going to the MWC. Their media deal ends in 2026 IIRC, so select teams may want to come over in time. In the meantime, we could still consider scheduling nonconference games against SDSU, Fresno - whoever.

From the Wilner piece:


Quote:
If desired, the four schools could attempt to play the hardest of hardball and declare the eight outgoing members ineligible for Pac-12 titles in 2023-24 and thus any automatic bids to NCAA championships.

There is precedent for such action. In 2012, the Colonial Athletic Association declared its three departing members, VCU, George State and Old Dominion, ineligible for championships.

We're skeptical Stanford, Cal, WSU and OSU would take that step.

But like everything else, it's on the spectrum of possibilities during this tumultuous stretch.
Connor Letourneau wrote a somewhat similar piece


Quote:
That is, if the Pac-12 can keep its Autonomous Five status a decision that would come down to a vote of the other four Power 5 leagues. For the Pac-12 to prove it deserves the NCAA's top designation after eight schools bolt in 2024, its four remaining members Cal, Stanford, Oregon State and Washington State must spearhead a near-flawless overhaul.

In addition to bringing on the right universities, the new Pac-12 needs to finally secure a media rights deal, which should only get tougher with heavyweights like Oregon and Washington gone. Then there is the matter of leadership. Since taking over two years ago, Pac-12 Commissioner George Kliavkoff has failed in his most important duty: securing a TV contract that would sustain the conference.

His inability to get a deal done prompted UCLA, USC, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Arizona State and Utah to seek refuge elsewhere. Though few can say Kliavkoff deserves to keep his job, that decision rests with the four remaining university presidents.

Stanford President Marc Tessier-Lavigne is resigning at the end of the month amid an academic scandal, and Cal Chancellor Carol Christ is retiring next summer. Oregon State President Jayathi Murthy has been in office less than a year, leaving just one president expected to stick around who boasts significant experience in college sports: Washington State's Kirk Schulz.

Even if Cal, Stanford, OSU and WSU fire Kliavkoff, can they be trusted to hire a capable replacement? For the Pac-12 to chart a viable path forward, it must have someone in charge who can think progressively and maximize what's left of the conference brand.

Two potential candidates are Bob Thompson and Gloria Nevarez. An Oregon alum, Thompson had a firsthand view of TV companies' imprint on college football during his long run as Fox Sports president. Nevarez, a Berkeley Law alum, was a Pac-12 executive before becoming the commissioner of the West Coast Conference (2018-22) and now the Mountain West.
He wrote about adding SDSU, Rice, SMU, and Gonzaga for basketball.
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HateRed
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11:52a, 8/11/23
None of us posting here have any idea what the ACC is doing right now. So let's stop with garbage posts and wait for what the ACC will decide.
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Econ141
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In reply to HateRed • 12:01p, 8/11/23
HateRed said:
None of us posting here have any idea what the ACC is doing right now. So let's stop with garbage posts and wait for what the ACC will decide.


The silence is deafening.
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HateRed
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12:29p, 8/11/23
And, that can be a good sign…
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6956bear
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In reply to HateRed • 1:18p, 8/11/23
HateRed said:
None of us posting here have any idea what the ACC is doing right now. So let's stop with garbage posts and wait for what the ACC will decide.
The ACC is not the problem. They at least took on the idea of adding Cal and Stanford (and SMU). There are however individual member schools that are against the idea. There is a deadline of sorts coming next Tuesday August 15th. FSU loudly and Clemson behind the scenes are making noise about leaving. To do so they need to tell the ACC by August 15th. But given everything that is going on they may very well do it when they want and tell the ACC to pound salt.

I do believe that several schools within the ACC see Cal and Stanford as a good add. A leverage bet against a few of the power brokers (FSU, Clemson and UNC) that believe they deserve more from the conference and will leave if they don't.

I doubt they add Cal and Stanford unless there is a move by a school or 2 to exit.But it does appear that the 4 remaining schools in the P12 are working together in some manner. I cannot see the AAC for anyone but the MWC may be interesting to at least 2 and possibly Cal as well.

Can these 4 convince Gloria Nevarez to leave the MWC and become the new commissioner of a new P12? They would need a TV deal and some member schools. Would Nevarez be able to pull a master coup and find homes for SDSU, Boise St., UNLV and some others in a new P12 world. It seems for this to happen it would need to be a merger rather than some teams exiting.

Cal may not agree to share a conference with these schools. I get it. I frankly may choose to go from diehard to at best a casual observer. That level of ball is not interesting to me. But if you want to field a team that may be what is necessary.

I saw somewhere that it is believed that Fox and CBS would increase their per team payouts for a new MWC with which they have a current TV agreement. Would Cal be for that? is that enough to look the other way when Fox deliberately tore down the P12 with the LA schools. They did and then finsihed it off with a dessert of UW and UO. Fox drove the realignment. When the P12 passed on the ESPN package last Fall, Fox decided to kill the P12. Cal has been relegated in all reality.

Lots of talks. Lots of rumors. But if the ACC does not add Cal and Stanford things will need to happen fast. I hope these are discussion points within Cal.
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philly1121
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In reply to HateRed • 1:18p, 8/11/23
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
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nikeykid
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In reply to HateRed • 1:57p, 8/11/23
HateRed said:
None of us posting here have any idea what the ACC is doing right now. So let's stop with garbage posts and wait for what the ACC will decide.
yup, let's sit on the sideline and wait for good news to come!
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sycasey
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In reply to philly1121 • 1:58p, 8/11/23
philly1121 said:
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
SOME of the schools are holding out for ND to join in football. Others are in favor of adding schools now (seems like a majority, but they need 75% approval). It depends on how close the vote is and if it could be swung.
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baytobreakers
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2:02p, 8/11/23
Have we heard definitively that the Big Ten discussions/ negotiations have ended and/or that the Big Ten is "set on 18"? Curiously, I haven't seen a B10 statement since the UO & UW add from Petitti similar to statements they made last year and even in 1H July that they were "focused on integrating the LA schools." Has the door completely closed?

I hope Stanford and Cal are constantly banging on their doors...

The optimist in me:
Perhaps the B10 is waiting until the Aug 15 passes to confirm FSU isn't going to bail on the ACC and be up for grabs.
The longer they wait, the more desperate Stanford and Cal become and they cheaper they could pick them up especially when they literally are free agents now (may be locked up with an exit fee in the future).

If the presidents are already on board (which is not the issue in the ACC), you would think there has to be a number that works ---- from the Cal and Stanford perspective, it just has to be slightly better than the alternative of the payout from re-building the PAC / MW / American / Independence to make sense. With 6 B1G teams in the west, travel would be on par with the American and might not be much more difficult than the others. And, assuming an East and West division, it would actually improve non-revenue sport travel for basically all B10 schools (incl UCLA, USC, UW, UO) aside from maybe Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota ending up in the West. Finally, assuming the status quo is that UCLA has to transfer ~$2M-$10M in Calimony from the total pay out if it's not in the conference, can you save $10M off the expected payout for Cal to keep it whole?
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sycasey
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In reply to baytobreakers • 2:10p, 8/11/23
baytobreakers said:
Have we heard definitively that the Big Ten discussions/ negotiations have ended and/or that the Big Ten is "set on 18"? Curiously, I haven't seen a B10 statement since the UO & UW add from Petitti similar to statements they made last year and even in 1H July that they were "focused on integrating the LA schools." Has the door completely closed?
No we have not heard anything definitive from the B1G, which is why I would not write them off as an option.

Indeed, they may just be biding their time for now while they see how the ACC situation works out.
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philly1121
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In reply to sycasey • 2:17p, 8/11/23
sycasey said:
philly1121 said:
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
SOME of the schools are holding out for ND to join in football. Others are in favor of adding schools now (seems like a majority, but they need 75% approval). It depends on how close the vote is and if it could be swung.
Well we know that FSU, Clemson, UNC and Syracuse are opposed. UVA may also be opposed but perhaps they're a swing vote. But those 4 schools are opposed on two levels - money and principle. They don't want Stanford or Cal to dilute their shares which they already think are not enough. And ND lobbying for Cal and Stanford to join the league while not committing their own football team is pure hypocrisy in their eyes.

I think anything is possible but the odds are long.
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sycasey
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In reply to philly1121 • 2:19p, 8/11/23
philly1121 said:
sycasey said:
philly1121 said:
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
SOME of the schools are holding out for ND to join in football. Others are in favor of adding schools now (seems like a majority, but they need 75% approval). It depends on how close the vote is and if it could be swung.
Well we know that FSU, Clemson, UNC and Syracuse are opposed.
We don't know that. The rumor mill has named a bunch of different schools as potentially on the "No" side of the question. The only thing I'd be 100% convinced of is that FSU and Clemson are opposed and Notre Dame is in favor. I'm also about 90% sure that it's very close: like they would only need to flip one or two votes to approve the merger. If it wasn't close they probably would have stopped talking about it already.
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to berserkeley • 2:43p, 8/11/23
berserkeley said:
wifeisafurd said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
berserkeley said:
CAL4LIFE said:
nikeykid said:
There you have it. ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford. Cal, deservedly so, is just extra baggage.









LOL. No it isn't. ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is doing what's best to preserve ND's Independent status.
Quote:
"ND isn't willing to do anything different to add value to the ACC."
Take a breath. That's exactly what this sentence above implies.

Quote:
ND's interest in pushing for Cal and Stanford is more about feeling sorry for two revered academic institutions. Actually it's more about feeling sorry for Stanford.
This is what I was replying to. It's not about feeling sorry for Stanford. They feel sorry for Stanford the same way Greg Sankey feels sorry for Stanford. ND isn't doing this to help Stanford; they're doing this to help themselves.
Okay, they're doing this for self-interest and perhaps even with a little more zeal because (I say this with some irony), they developed relationships with Furd and Cal administrators due to football games.
What is the problem? Isn't that one they are paid to do - look out for the interests of their school?


I didn't say it was a problem. In fact, before it was leaked that ND was in our corner, I posted that I was grateful they had a vote because helping us get into the ACC would be in their own interest. Obviously everyone is acting in their own self interest except, arguably, Cal and Stanford who have clung to long dead ideals of college athletic amateurism to their own detriment.
I don't think my comment was aimed at you, you were just the last to comment, Sao I aded on to your post. I will try to be more clear.
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calumnus
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In reply to sycasey • 2:44p, 8/11/23
sycasey said:
philly1121 said:
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
SOME of the schools are holding out for ND to join in football. Others are in favor of adding schools now (seems like a majority, but they need 75% approval). It depends on how close the vote is and if it could be swung.


Exactly. Report is 4 of 15 are No votes, so enough to block a decision that requires 75% but it sounds like a majority want us with a few reportedly on the fence currently.

One solution is for the ACC to let noisy malcontent FSU have an installment plan for paying their exit fee so they can just leave. Then it would be only 3 of 14 opposed and we are likely in, with both FSU's share and their exit fee. Maybe Clemson too.

The other is to get a majority vote for a scheduling agreement for 2024 that would include 8 teams traveling to the Bay Area for a single game and 6 teams playing either Cal or Stanford a single game on the East Coast. Or if we had to, only 6 teams traveling to the Bay Area for a single game.
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calumnus
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In reply to sycasey • 2:50p, 8/11/23
sycasey said:
philly1121 said:
sycasey said:
philly1121 said:
HateRed said:
And, that can be a good sign…
I get what you're saying but in order for us to be invited, they want ND to join for football. That's not going to happen unless the situation gets dire. And even then I think they would bolt and join the B1G.
SOME of the schools are holding out for ND to join in football. Others are in favor of adding schools now (seems like a majority, but they need 75% approval). It depends on how close the vote is and if it could be swung.
Well we know that FSU, Clemson, UNC and Syracuse are opposed.
We don't know that. The rumor mill has named a bunch of different schools as potentially on the "No" side of the question. The only thing I'd be 100% convinced of is that FSU and Clemson are opposed and Notre Dame is in favor. I'm also about 90% sure that it's very close: like they would only need to flip one or two votes to approve the merger. If it wasn't close they probably would have stopped talking about it already.


I am very confident FSU and Clemson are opposed mostly because they want out of the current GORs or more money at least and so they are blocking as a negotiating strategy. Or as a pretext to challenge the GORs if they lose.
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