drunkoski;504877 said:

---

" torture generally produces a ton more bad info than good info"

talking out of your arse or do you have some evidence of this? if it's so ineffictive than why is it used so often over the centuries? does that make any logical sense? everyone is after blood lust?

---

I'm just letting you in on the actual argument of those who you think say it "doesn't work". You're flailing at a straw man when you disprove a notion that nobody holds. Nobody has ever said that torture has never produced a single piece of worthwhile intelligence. (As I said, ask John McCain.) So if you want to assert that IF bin Laden's whereabouts were indeed discovered (directly or indirectly) through torture it proves a larger point about the effectiveness of torture, google "torture doesn't work" and see if you can find someone to argue with.

jankoski;504613 said:

---

$10, it was one of his progeny. The world has one less madman but a few thousands more... Am I the only one worried about how this went down? If one of us ****es off some foreign country with just words a la Rushdie, Obama is going to deliver us on a silver platter with the trimmings. This violation of foreign turf is going to hurt us little people in the long run. Thanks a lot, Obama!

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So, if you were president and you'd received intelligence that OBL was hiding out in a mansion in Abbottabad, you'd have done what?

BearyWhite;504894 said:

---

I'm just letting you in on the actual argument of those who you think say it "doesn't work". You're flailing at a straw man when you disprove a notion that nobody holds. Nobody has ever said that torture has never produced a single piece of worthwhile intelligence. (As I said, ask John McCain.) So if you want to assert that IF bin Laden's whereabouts were indeed discovered (directly or indirectly) through torture it proves a larger point about the effectiveness of torture, google "torture doesn't work" and see if you can find someone to argue with.

---

I'm sure there are some people who have misunderstood the argument against torture and have subsequently reduced it to the slogan "torture doesn't work." Like many slogans, it's catchy and ultimately reductive and inaccurate as to the actual argument, which is "torture is immoral and not as effective as other, more humane methods." But that latter one doesn't work well on a bumper sticker.

drunkoski;504868 said:

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umm people are fallible? shocking i know. but you are right. there probably is a much more sinister reason.

---

It's a well-established meme on their network:



If you do not understand what massive tools they are over at the Fox Network, from Rupert Murdoch on down, then I cannot help you. The interlocking nature of their "news", the institutional right wing and the Republican Party makes them nothing more than a propaganda organ.

Now that Osama is dead and the Obama is trending upward, let's see what their next degrading meme is.

okaydo;504915 said:

---

---

I know what they are thinking okaydo....

"...why is Cameron Jordan falling in the draft?......"

drunkoski;504920 said:

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BBC and NPR also known as obama haters i suppose.

http://mashable.com/2011/05/02/osama-obama-gaffes/

try to think somewhat rationally here. what positive impact coudl this have for them? all it does is make them look stupid? you say the presidents name 40 times in an hour and see if you can stop from making that mistake forever. i'm not saying fox is pro obama or something, but acting like this is any proof of that is absurd at best.

---

Here's the deal, people that I know and have worked with, have been on the nationwide right-wing conference calls. These things are not accidental or incidental. And they are purposeful. The purpose? De-legitimize Democratic Presidents and boost the candidacies of Republicans, in furtherance of the transfer of wealth and power to the top of the economic system.

You can choose to be naive. Or you can ask yourself, how is it that 49 states are suddenly, simultaneously embroiled in either 'budget crises' or collective bargaining fights?

In case it hasn't been posted yet, those wacky Taiwan animators that love to depict US news events have recreated the raid:



Warning if you are sensitive, this video is extremely offensive and hilarious.

Fyght4Cal;504927 said:

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Here's the deal, people that I know and have worked with, have been on the nationwide right-wing conference calls. These things are not accidental or incidental. And they are purposeful. The purpose? De-legitimize Democratic Presidents and boost the candidacies of Republicans, in furtherance of the transfer of wealth and power to the top of the economic system.

You can choose to be naive. Or you can ask yourself, how is it that 49 states are suddenly, simultaneously embroiled in either 'budget crises' or collective bargaining fights?

---

........honestly, I don't know why so much political bashing goes on here and 90% of it by liberals.....are you and others so pi$$ed off at conservatives or republicans that you need to tell us on BI?... aren't there other sites that you can do that on?.... What gets me and I write this every time, all you have to do is go to google and research this stuff and find out that BOTH sides do this equally......you can usually tell the extremists because they only read THEIR sides' websites etc and feel that their $hit doesn't stink.... it borders on the ridiculous....

sycasey;504910 said:

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I'm sure there are some people who have misunderstood the argument against torture and have subsequently reduced it to the slogan "torture doesn't work." Like many slogans, it's catchy and ultimately reductive and inaccurate as to the actual argument, which is "torture is immoral and not as effective as other, more humane methods." But that latter one doesn't work well on a bumper sticker.

---

drunkoski, for one

Cal84;504821 said:

---

Good riddance on bin Laden. But truth be told, in the long run this is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't resolve much less solve anything in the big picture scheme of things.

---

"Utterly irrelevant" seems overboard.

Yes, the cultural issues you brought up were right on. But those issues will be faced, in the long term, by other, societal changes. Just this past winter we had all the revolutions in the middle east (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Lebanon, etc.) so there's sign of change (and, perhaps, progress) in the region. It will take time.

I think OBL's is more relevant in the short term, and somewhat relevant in the long term. In the short term, it's a psychological win for the West. Just having him alive was a stain on our record (much like the decrepit CMS maybe never directly hurt our recruiting but was a stain compared to the facilities at other schools). There's also talk that global unity of Al Qaeda is likely to be weakened since AQ's #2, Zawahiri, does not have the charisma that OBL had.

Despite the ridiculous amount of money and time we've spent, we have shown that we're willing to put in the time to hunt these people down. That sends a message.

Cal_Fan2;504918 said:

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I know what they are thinking okaydo....

"...why is Cameron Jordan falling in the draft?......"

---

--OR--

"Maynard ahead of Bridgeford --- WTF???"

Cal84;504821 said:

---

Good riddance on bin Laden. But truth be told, in the long run this is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't resolve much less solve anything in the big picture scheme of things.

bin Laden was just a symptom of two bigger issues. The first is the internal contradiction in Arabic (and to some extent Muslim) cultures between wanting respect/wanting to reclaim lost/occupied territories and yet refusing to fully enter the modern world by clinging to thousand year old superstitions. The second issue is an internal contradiction in Western countries. The Western public by and large shows absolute disdain for Arabs and the governmental policies of Western countries visa vie the Arab world reflects that. But that runs headlong into the overriding need/desire to deal with these countries constructively because A) their natural resources and B) to at least show symbolic support for the supposedly always successful ways for civilizing Western liberal democracy (aka the "new" Western superstition, err religion).

Neither of these two contradictions, one on the Arab side and one on the Western, is resolved by bin Laden' death. Even the "Arab Spring" revolts in Tunisia and Egypt are but symptoms of the same issues and resolve nothing. In five years time, we'll look back at bin Laden's death in the same way we look back now at Saddam Hussein's capture/death, or at Qaddafi's upcoming death - as a historical footnote. Saddam's death resolved nothing in Iraq and bin laden's death will have the same effect in Afganistan, i.e. no effect.

---

Nice "big picture", Cal84, and I couldn't agree more. Some TV pundit last night described OBL's death as "the end of terrorism", which had to be the most ridiculous pronouncement I could have imagined. Even besides what you mentioned, this is not even taking into account Timothy-McVeigh-type terrorism.

I'd be shocked if what's left of Al Qaeda or perhaps a similar organization doesn't mount a significant attack on the US some time soon, just to send the message that this ISN'T the end of terrorism.

Killing OBL was good for the sake of justice and to weaken this one organization, but as long as the differences you mentioned continue to exist, it's like playing whack-a-mole.

One thing that would help long term would be reducing our dependency on foreign oil.

I have read the statements of 50 political figures regarding the death of OBL. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor's are the most laughable and pathetic:

"Nearly a decade ago, in the days after 9/11, President Bush said, 'Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.' Tonight, we've learned that justice has been done. The man with the blood of more than 3,000 Americans on his hands, the man who forced us to begin to think the unthinkable - is now dead.



"Families who lost loved ones at the hands of Bin Laden and his terrorist organization have grieved for far too long and this sends a signal that America will not tolerate terrorism in any form. The men and women of our armed forces and intelligence community have fought valiantly for the last decade and this is a major victory and testament to their dedication. I commend President Obama who has followed the vigilance of President Bush in bringing Bin Laden to justice. While this is no doubt a major event in our battle against terrorism, we will not relent in our fight against terror and our efforts to keep America safe and secure."

What a pathetic douche. Even Cheney and Rove had more integrity and brains than to attempt to put a favorable partisan spin on this event. Cantor will get a Fox News gig soon enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/obama-bush-bin-laden-dead_n_856428.html

Big C_Cal;504966 said:

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Nice "big picture", Cal84, and I couldn't agree more. Some TV pundit last night described OBL's death as "the end of terrorism", which had to be the most ridiculous pronouncement I could have imagined. Even besides what you mentioned, this is not even taking into account Timothy-McVeigh-type terrorism.

---

Ridiculous, true, but as Slate's Dahlia Lithwick makes a good case, this would be a great time to announce an end of the ridiculous "war on terror". Not even the name made sense (declaring war on "terror"?) and no one would (or could) ever say when it would be over because it had no defined goal. It was just an indefinite suspension of whatever laws the administration found inconvenient, and it's time to end the practice. Obama hasn't shown a lot of interest in giving up power -- presidents are like that -- so unfortunately it's not likely to happen.

freshfunk;504962 said:

---

I think OBL's is more relevant in the short term, and somewhat relevant in the long term.

---

Bin Laden was a guy who had the demonstrated willingness and capability to attack the United States, so taking him out was important; he's immediately removed as a threat to national security (and unlike Saddam Hussein, he was a legitimate and direct threat).

It certainly doesn't "win the war on terror" or anything like that, but it was something that needed to be done and his death is not irrelevant.

drunkoski;504877 said:

---

" torture generally produces a ton more bad info than good info"

talking out of your arse or do you have some evidence of this? if it's so ineffictive than why is it used so often over the centuries? does that make any logical sense? everyone is after blood lust?

---

This thread is torture, and other than the Taiwanese animation (which my bro sent me hours ago) no good information has come of it.

Just one more inconclusive data point on the effectiveness of torture.

Cal84;504821 said:

---

Good riddance on bin Laden. But truth be told, in the long run this is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't resolve much less solve anything in the big picture scheme of things.

bin Laden was just a symptom of two bigger issues. The first is the internal contradiction in Arabic (and to some extent Muslim) cultures between wanting respect/wanting to reclaim lost/occupied territories and yet refusing to fully enter the modern world by clinging to thousand year old superstitions. The second issue is an internal contradiction in Western countries. The Western public by and large shows absolute disdain for Arabs and the governmental policies of Western countries visa vie the Arab world reflects that. But that runs headlong into the overriding need/desire to deal with these countries constructively because A) their natural resources and B) to at least show symbolic support for the supposedly always successful ways for civilizing Western liberal democracy (aka the "new" Western superstition, err religion).

Neither of these two contradictions, one on the Arab side and one on the Western, is resolved by bin Laden' death. Even the "Arab Spring" revolts in Tunisia and Egypt are but symptoms of the same issues and resolve nothing. In five years time, we'll look back at bin Laden's death in the same way we look back now at Saddam Hussein's capture/death, or at Qaddafi's upcoming death - as a historical footnote. Saddam's death resolved nothing in Iraq and bin laden's death will have the same effect in Afganistan, i.e. no effect.

---

I disagree that this is "utterly irrelevant" for at least two reasons. This brought closure, justice, whatever you want to call it to the friends and families of the 9/11 victims and of the military casualties who spent years fighting the Taliban and tracking him down.

Also, it sends a message to other, future leaders who look to do us harm: we will find you and kill you. This may not mean much to martyrs but it does to the terrorist leaders who have shown that they place a very high value on their own lives. Which is why Osama died hiding behind his wife.

Kudos to Obama for making this call. In my opinion, this was his finest hour as President.

bearister;504971 said:

---

I have read the statements of 50 political figures regarding the death of OBL. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor's are the most laughable and pathetic:

"Nearly a decade ago, in the days after 9/11, President Bush said, 'Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.' Tonight, we've learned that justice has been done. The man with the blood of more than 3,000 Americans on his hands, the man who forced us to begin to think the unthinkable - is now dead.



"Families who lost loved ones at the hands of Bin Laden and his terrorist organization have grieved for far too long and this sends a signal that America will not tolerate terrorism in any form. The men and women of our armed forces and intelligence community have fought valiantly for the last decade and this is a major victory and testament to their dedication. I commend President Obama who has followed the vigilance of President Bush in bringing Bin Laden to justice. While this is no doubt a major event in our battle against terrorism, we will not relent in our fight against terror and our efforts to keep America safe and secure."

What a pathetic douche. Even Cheney and Rove had more integrity and brains than to attempt to put a favorable partisan spin on this event. Cantor will get a Fox News gig soon enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/obama-bush-bin-laden-dead_n_856428.html

---

Your hatred is noted...and has been for awhile...may I suggest some active political sites that you might enjoy instead of constantly making BI a soap box for your political diatribes....

Daily Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/

MoveOn.Org.

http://front.moveon.org/

They will welcome you with open arms....really!

Cal_Fan2;504989 said:

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Your hatred is noted...and has been for awhile...may I suggest some active political sites that you might enjoy instead of constantly making BI a soap box for your political diatribes....

---

Blame Cantor for injecting politics into this BI post! (Boxer too; does anyone care what she voted for in 2001?)

BearyWhite;504995 said:

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Blame Cantor for injecting politics into this BI post! (Boxer too; does anyone care what she voted for in 2001?)

---

I would if they were posting here.... I don't mind someone's political views as much as I mind personal attacks filled with hatred and vitriol...save that for the likes of Osama himself...

Cal_Fan2;504989 said:

---

Your hatred is noted...and has been for awhile...may I suggest some active political sites that you might enjoy instead of constantly making BI a soap box for your political diatribes....

Daily Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/

MoveOn.Org.

http://front.moveon.org/

They will welcome you with open arms....really!

---

I will answer your earlier questions:

........honestly, I don't know why so much political bashing goes on here and 90% of it by liberals.....

The 90% figure you cite is attributable to the fact that most of the people who post on this site are Cal graduates which means they are far too intelligent to buy the agenda of the top 1% pushed by Fox News.


What gets me and I write this every time, all you have to do is go to google and research this stuff and find out that BOTH sides do this equally......

This is demonstrably not a true statement. Every day I get dozens of Right Wing emails regarding Obama that I check on Snopes and determine are outright false. I have yet to get an email from the liberal point of veiw containing falsehoods about Conservatives. MSNBC reports the facts and then puts a progressive/liberal spin on those facts. Fox News makes up facts--you can find lists and lists of these fabricated factoids collected on internet sites. Both sides do not do it equally. Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers and their machine out spend everyone in the "manufactured reality" department.

you can usually tell the extremists because they only read THEIR sides' websites etc and feel that their $hit doesn't stink.... it borders on the ridiculous....

I read the Drudge Report, George Will and Pat Buchanan, and watch Bill O'Reilly to learn things critical of "my team." I have never met a Conservative who watched Rachel Maddow or read the Huffington Post. Unless you are in the top 5% who owns 80% of the nation's wealth and thus are protecting your financial position with the political philosophy you follow, then you are simply being used like a tool.

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

bearister;505002 said:

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MSNBC reports the facts and then puts a progressive/liberal spin on those facts. Fox News makes up facts--you can find lists and lists of these fabricated factoids collected on internet sites. Both sides do not do it equally. Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers and their machine out spend everyone in the "manufactured reality" department.

---

I have to agree with this. The far right is more organized, purposeful, and just smarter at shaping public opinion (of the people who are susceptible to their line of thinking) than the far left.

Fox News' Lies Keep Them Out of Canada

"But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success." - Adolf Hitler

You are deluded to think one side does this more than another...plus you make it personal which doesn't make it any better....you pick out the things you want to see and than form your opinion...for every liberal who thinks FOX news are liars, there is a conservative who thinks MSNBC is equally guilty... you get emails because you are subscribed to or visit certain sites... I am not a conservative but I am center right. I don't post on political blogs anymore because most of the big ones have no use for someone who tries to see all sides..

....I have no love for the likes of Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter....just like I have no love for Keith Olbermann, Ed Schultz or Chris Matthews. They all do the same thing and then point the finger at the other.... You don't believe this because you think the liberal guys are above board because it fits your description of the truth..but what I note is that you descend to the invective and vitriol that doesn't become anyone....

If you hang around true independents, you'll know they have no love lost for either side...they just wish they would work together...

Both sides have their say...and they are at war with each other ....you'll find just as much crap at Media Matters as you will at the Media Research Center...every time I hear an independent fact check organization, they bring up lies on BOTH sides....

BearyWhite;504978 said:

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Ridiculous, true, but as Slate's Dahlia Lithwick makes a good case, this would be a great time to announce an end of the ridiculous "war on terror". Not even the name made sense (declaring war on "terror"?) and no one would (or could) ever say when it would be over because it had no defined goal. It was just an indefinite suspension of whatever laws the administration found inconvenient, and it's time to end the practice. Obama hasn't shown a lot of interest in giving up power -- presidents are like that -- so unfortunately it's not likely to happen.

---

Bin Laden's dead and good riddance but it's irrelevant. He already won. By his action on 9/11 he's cost us two wars and counting, thousands of dead bodies and trillions in debt. And last night we learn that Bin Laden is living in a compound in Abbotobad which coincidentally is a town with a military base and houses the Pakistan Military Institute-the West Point of Pakistan. And we're supposed to believe that after pouring billions into the rat hole of Pakistan that they don't know where he is when it's like he's living in Arlington Virginia. Meanwhile we're still fighting a war in Afghanistan. Yet the reason we invaded Afghanistan - Bin Laden and his Taliban cronies- have safe harbor in Pakistan, And if that's not enough we go into Libya. Bush and Obama have been totally played by this cave dweller and Pakistan and have f#cked this country up.

Cal_Fan2;505007 said:

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You are deluded to think one side does this more than another...<snip>... I am not a conservative but I am center right. I don't post on political blogs anymore because most of the big ones have no use for someone who tries to see all sides...

<snip> They all do the same thing and then point the finger at the other.... You don't believe this because you think the liberal guys are above board because it fits your description of the truth...<snip>

---

I believe my thinking is similar to yours, but I disagree with you here (not about bearister, but about whether the manipulation is equal on both sides). Your example is about pundits. The real problem is not the pundits, since everyone knows they are providing strong points-of-view. The problem is manipulation in the guise of reporting the news. Yes, mainstream journalism tends to be more liberal, but Fox News is no better than tabloid reporting, and many of their techniques are obvious, starting with the phrase "Fair & Balanced." While you may believe the other organizations are just as biased in the other direction, Fox is the only organization that pretends that they are not, right in their logo.

TouchedTheAxeIn82;505011 said:

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I believe my thinking is similar to yours, but I disagree with you here (not about bearister, but about whether the manipulation is equal on both sides). Your example is about pundits. The real problem is not the pundits, since everyone knows they are providing strong points-of-view. The problem is manipulation in the guise of reporting the news. Yes, mainstream journalism tends to be more liberal, but Fox News is no better than tabloid reporting, and many of their techniques are obvious, starting with the phrase "Fair & Balanced." While you may believe the other organizations are just as biased in the other direction, Fox is the only organization that pretends that they are not, right in their logo.

---

They are not fair and balanced, I agree but a plurality of people think the news is too liberal....several Gallup polls show this...(unlike Rasmussen which leans right or Zogby which leans left) Gallup is pretty much down the middle.. I know bearister won't agree but numerous polls show that is the perception of the American public as a whole...so you don't have to take my word for it..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9430/news-media-too-liberal.aspx

......and for every Media Matters that is liberal

http://mediamatters.org/

.....there is the Media Research Center that is conservative

http://www.mrc.org/public/default.aspx

Anyone reading either of these sites will come away thinking the other side is completely NUTS !!!!...

I'm not on the side of FOX news and much as I'm on the side of those who think FOX and MSNBC are the opposite sides of the same coin...I actually watch CNN mostly now...they used to lean left but have gone a long way to bring both sides in the debate....they usually always have someone on each side commenting...

For what is is worth, I think Olbermann and Hannity are the most dishonest pompous jerks....one is gone and another lives on...

Cal_Fan2;505013 said:

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They are not fair and balanced, I agree but a plurality of people think the news is too liberal....several Gallup polls show this...(unlike Rasmussen which leans right or Zogby which leans left) Gallup is pretty much down the middle.. I know bearister won't agree but numerous polls show that is the perception of the American public as a whole...so you don't have to take my word for it..

---

Perception doesn't prove anything. It could simply mean that more people have been fooled into thinking the media is too liberal, or that Fox News is actually fair and balanced.

sycasey;505015 said:

---

Perception doesn't prove anything. It could simply mean that more people have been fooled into thinking the media is too liberal, or that Fox News is actually fair and balanced.

---

I disagree...when it comes to politics or bias, perception is everything....and I am not of the opinion that the American people are as naive as you do... I wouldn't dismiss them like that.... MOST people don't watch FOX or MSNBC if you see what their viewing audience numbers are.... 2 million people watch O'Reilly or something like that...a small number compared to 300 million, or at least 240 million who are adults I"m sure......

Cal_Fan2;504989 said:

---

Your hatred is noted...and has been for awhile.......

---

GB54;505008 said:

---

Bin Laden's dead and good riddance but it's irrelevant. He already won. By his action on 9/11 he's cost us two wars and counting, thousands of dead bodies and trillions in debt. ....

---

Bin Laden provided the pretext to launch a plan that was long in the making. Thus it was not he who cost us two wars and counting and thousands of dead bodies and trillions in debt. The "cause" was Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz and the Neocons. And to think, those lads get a free pass on the death and destruction they wrought. Please read Right Winger Pat Buchanan's essay:

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007/

bearister;505023 said:

---

Bin Laden provided the pretext to launch a plan that was long in the making. Thus it was not he who cost us two wars and counting and thousands of dead bodies and trillions in debt. The "cause" was Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz and the Neocons. And to think, those lads get a free pass on the death and destruction they wrought. Please read Right Winger Pat Buchanan's essay:

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007/

---

See now, I agree with you there.....Bush made the call but I blame the neo-cons for most of this crap....Perle, Kristol and Wolfowitz made Bush their willing dupe. I actually think Bush wanted to do the right thing.....these guys just wanted to take over Iraq. I'm still waiting for the Iraqi Oil to pay for this war like Wolfoqitz said it would.....and Clinton didn't do us any favors by not taking down Osama earlier per Michael Scheuer.

ok....I"m done with this $hit....

Cal_Fan2;505025 said:

---

See now, I agree with you there.....Bush made the call but I blame the neo-cons for most of this crap....Perle, Kristol and Wolfowitz made Bush their willing dupe. I actually think Bush wanted to do the right thing.....these guys just wanted to take over Iraq. I'm still waiting for the Iraqi Oil to pay for this war like Wolfoqitz said it would.....and Clinton didn't do us any favors by not taking down Osama earlier per Michael Scheuer.

ok....I"m done with this $hit....

---

At least at the end we ended with a bro hug. Go Bears!:gobears:

Whew! You guys had some endurance there....

Does anyone know why the Navy SEALS got awarded the contract to whack The Sheik? At first I figured that they were being rewarded with payback rights because of their failed mission in Afghanistan (as told in Lone Survivor). But then I remembered that Delta Force took that major hit in Somalia, courtesy of OBL arming every man, woman, and child in that country with an AK-47 (Blackhawk Down). Whey didn't Delta Force get this job?