tbischel;506291 said:

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This poll seems to suggest liberals are a minority of Americans... not terribly surprising. This poll suggests that a plurality of people would repeal the health care reform package (generally considered a liberal program, even if it isn't single payer). If I had to guess where the electorate sits on the political spectrum, it'd be fiscally conservative, and left-of-center socially.

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neither of those polls disprove my point, which is that people like liberal social programs, regardless of whether they describe themselves as 'liberal'. the individual elements of healthcare reform pretty much all enjoy majority support, but a plurality want the package repealed. go figure.

tbischel;506291 said:

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I think its pretty clear that Obama misread his mandate... for most Americans, "Change" just meant change the man, not the direction. People wanted a president who came across as intelligent, was respected internationally, and who preached bipartisanship... everything Bush failed to achieve. Obama pressed this advantage to push liberal legislation through congress, and naturally his popularity sank.

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You're saying the country wanted a intelligent conservative? Then why did they vote for a guy who everyone loves to say was one of the most liberal members of the Senate? They wanted a Democrat. They knew he wanted to reform health care, and he did. His numbers are down because the economy still sucks, and that's what people care about. If polled I'd give him bad marks, not because he's too liberal but because he's been ineffective in many ways, including following rather than leading on healthcare reform and ending up with a muddle of a bill.

GB54;506299 said:

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To be fair most American elections are not about ideology, people are interested in results not labels.

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Maybe, but those who control the political system are interested in ideology, and they make sure that the people voting don't understand the results they're voting for.

drunkoski;506128 said:

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A percentage of voters certainly like liberal policies. the majority do not. the fact that obama is the first truly liberal president in 30 years should be proof enough no? and no i never implied they were perfectly informed during the midterms, but let's face it obviously obama did SOMETHING that turned off the voters no?

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Remember, Gore won in 2000

sycasey;505996 said:

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I think you just fell into the . . .

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lol. thanks for that. really.

i thought there was a 50/50 chance but in these kind of discussions you never know. plus i'm skimming most of what's here because it tends to be tl;dr.

jyamada;506317 said:

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I don't know the numbers but I'd bet 70-75% of the electorate are into ideology with half going to the right and the other half going to the left. .. .

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The policies of the Right are aimed at benefiting the top 5% of the group going to the Right (owners of 80% of the nation's wealth). The remainder of those going Right are fooled into following a philosophy against their own best interests because it is wrapped in patriotism, religion, and Fox News. 95% of those going Right either aspire to be in the Good Old Boys Club with the top 5% or delusionally think they are in the Club. In reality they are merely serving drinks and cocktail wieners on silver platters at the party.

tbischel;506291 said:

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This poll seems to suggest liberals are a minority of Americans... not terribly surprising. This poll suggests that a plurality of people would repeal the health care reform package (generally considered a liberal program, even if it isn't single payer). If I had to guess where the electorate sits on the political spectrum, it'd be fiscally conservative, and left-of-center socially.

I think its pretty clear that Obama misread his mandate... for most Americans, "Change" just meant change the man, not the direction. People wanted a president who came across as intelligent, was respected internationally, and who preached bipartisanship... everything Bush failed to achieve. Obama pressed this advantage to push liberal legislation through congress, and naturally his popularity sank.

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How people view themselves politically often tells us little about their stance on the issues.

bearister;506453 said:

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The policies of the Right are aimed at benefiting the top 5% of the group going to the Right (owners of 80% of the nation's wealth). The remainder of those going Right are fooled into following a philosophy against their own best interests because it is wrapped in patriotism, religion, and Fox News. 95% of those going Right either aspire to be in the Good Old Boys Club with the top 5% or delusionally think they are in the Club. In reality they are merely serving drinks and cocktail wieners on silver platters at the party.

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Like I said, everybody needs to read the Vanity Fair article you linked somewhere in the football section of BI, especially those who have been brainwashed to serve those 5 percenters! :p

I wonder how long it will take the foolish Che Guevara T-Shirt wearers to start wearing ones with OBL on them...Same idiotic ideals...and delusional concepts.

jyamada;506475 said:

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Like I said, everybody needs to read the Vanity Fair article you linked somewhere in the football section of BI, especially those who have been brainwashed to serve those 5 percenters! :p

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http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

tbischel;506291 Obama pressed this advantage to push liberal legislation through congress, and naturally [URL="http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/gallup-daily-obama-job-approval.aspx" said:

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his popularity sank[/URL].

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Wrong. It was jobs jobs jobs. If the unemployment numbers had dramatically improved, the Dems would have won the 2010 elections. This is why the Repubs fought hard to dampen any recovery.

bearister;506453 said:

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The policies of the Right are aimed at benefiting the top 5% of the group going to the Right (owners of 80% of the nation's wealth). The remainder of those going Right are fooled into following a philosophy against their own best interests because it is wrapped in patriotism, religion, and Fox News. 95% of those going Right either aspire to be in the Good Old Boys Club with the top 5% or delusionally think they are in the Club. In reality they are merely serving drinks and cocktail wieners on silver platters at the party.

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So conservatives are either greedy, stupid, or delusional... I find that when I resort to those assumptions about liberals, its because I've failed to take the time to understand and appreciate their world view, different from mine it may be. I wouldn't claim that my world view is representative of conservatives in general, but I'd address some of those assertions regarding income redistribution from my perspective.

I guess my views are founded in what I see the role of government when it comes to demanding a share of our money. It should provide a bare minimum safety net for the very poor. It should provide the means for social mobility via a strong education system. Beyond that, we should be treated equally under the law. I think Americans generally feel that a system like this that we all benefit from, we should all pay into. This notion of "fairness" that is challanged by progressive tax structures... I see 1% of the population paying more taxes than the bottom 90%, and then find that 47% of people pay no income taxes at all. It strikes me as very un-American, given how our common principles spelled out in the constitution go to such great lengths to treat everyone equally. I think American's additudes towards income redistribution reflect that notion of fairness as well.

I readily acknowledge that I will not be in that top income bracket, that raising their taxes would ultimately benefit me more... and yet I refuse to take these actions. If as a consequence of this, it appears I am supporting policies that "benefit the top x%", it must be understood that is not the underlying reason for supporting tax cuts for rich and poor alike.

If you are willing to have an open mind, I found Paul Graham's take on the income gap to be very enlightening.

tbischel;506536 said:

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This notion of "fairness" that is challanged by progressive tax structures... I see 1% of the population paying more taxes than the bottom 90%, and then find that 47% of people pay no income taxes at all. It strikes me as very un-American, given how our common principles spelled out in the constitution go to such great lengths to treat everyone equally.

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I think it's perfectly fair for the top 1% to pay more taxes than the bottom 90% if they in fact have more wealth than those other people. Why is that not equal?

sycasey;506560 said:

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I think it's perfectly fair for the top 1% to pay more taxes than the bottom 90% if they in fact have more wealth than those other people. Why is that not equal?

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I'm not trying to delegitimize progressive ideas on taxation... I respect that perspective. I merely was responding to the demonization of conservative ideology by the parent post. The first step to civil discord is understanding ideas you disagree with, after all. :beer:

bearister;506489 said:

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http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

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Good article.

TightwadHill99;506589 said:

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Good article.

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And if you liked that article, this one is very enlightening as well:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

Do you think there is anyone dumb enough that views this website to buy one of these T-shirts advertised on the banner to the right:



After what happened to Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gough in the Netherlands?

bearister;506453 said:

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The policies of the Right are aimed at benefiting the top 5% of the group going to the Right (owners of 80% of the nation's wealth). The remainder of those going Right are fooled into following a philosophy against their own best interests because it is wrapped in patriotism, religion, and Fox News. 95% of those going Right either aspire to be in the Good Old Boys Club with the top 5% or delusionally think they are in the Club. In reality they are merely serving drinks and cocktail wieners on silver platters at the party.

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To be fair, a good number of the republican party are there because of social/conservative issues tied to religion and/or "morality." Your explanation only accounts for fiscal issues.

Vandalus;506794 said:

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To be fair, a good number of the republican party are there because of social/conservative issues tied to religion and/or "morality." Your explanation only accounts for fiscal issues.

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To be fair, bearister did mention religion as one of the ways the Republicans get people to vote for them.

sycasey;506817 said:

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To be fair, bearister did mention religion as one of the ways the Republicans get people to vote for them.

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Since we are on this topic. Do you think, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Buddha and/or Joseph Smith would support today's Republican or Democratic party(assuming he were willing to so state)

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GivemTheAxe;507202 said:

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Since we are on this topic. Do you think, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Buddha and/or Joseph Smith would support today's Republican or Democratic party(assuming he were willing to so state)

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This short video clip sums it all up for me (Caution: It does contain swear words if that is a problem for you or others within listening distance of your computer):