BearyWhite;505415 said:

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..and the drunk down the street keeps saying that someone implanted a mind control chip behind his right ear. the prevarications of white house spokespeople and news anchors are not comparable, particularly when the topic of the discussion is "the biases of news organizations".

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So you are saying the it is ok for the Admin to use the same tactics as FOX news?.....I"m saying tactics are tactics and both sides employ them.... if any news outlet televises spokespeople using these phrases, then they are giving a stage to those that employ them...like I wrote before but you didn't respond, MSNBC used the pejorative "tea baggers and tea bagging"... I didn't hear anyone else use them on purpose...I find both to be guilty..and I still stand by that..

drunkoski;505393 said:

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as I hope some of the crazed govt as the solution to all our problems stuff runs it's course and the democrat party returns to clinton levels, but i'm not holding my breath.

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The problem is that none of it has really been crazy, if you want to go by the historical record. There's no social-program legislation Obama has supported that's anywhere near as big and far-reaching as FDR's New Deal or LBJ's Great Society packages.

Basically, the issue is that when it comes to economic policy, you are on the extreme right. So you see even moderate Dem/liberal policies as crazy-left. I don't expect you will (ever) agree with me on this, but that's how I see it. Clinton's economic policy was fairly centrist, and he also didn't have a massive economic crash to deal with when he started; I suspect that if he had entered office in Obama's situation, he would have done something similar (w/r/t the stimulus).

Exactly, jingoism is childish at best. Obama's TV report was cool and professional.
No sports references, no slapping himself on the back, just, we got the job done.
Totally presidential, not like his retard predecessor with "Mission Accomplished", you know the AWOL in the flight jacket.

JerseyBear;505433 said:

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Exactly, jingoism is childish at best. Obama's TV report was cool and professional.
No sports references, no slapping himself on the back, just, we got the job done.
Totally presidential, not like his retard predecessor with "Mission Accomplished", you know the AWOL in the flight jacket.

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This is the kind of talk I was referring to initially.....

I am disappointed that this thread veered off into the same left/right arguments we always have. I was hoping for more animated gifs.

Anyway, love'em or hate'em (either of the dudes in the pic) I saw this on another board and it made me laugh... you may recall the "Mission Accomplished" speech took place May 1, 2003.

JerseyBear;505433 said:

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Exactly, jingoism is childish at best. Obama's TV report was cool and professional.
No sports references, no slapping himself on the back, just, we got the job done.
Totally presidential, not like his retard predecessor with "Mission Accomplished", you know the AWOL in the flight jacket.

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Don't forget deserter too! :p

Let's just say I don't agree about the frequency of one side over the other on this board.

drunkoski;505441 said:

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i actually don't diagree in that he's right of fdr. not sure that means he isn't left though. completely different times remember. as a country we are farther right than then.

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I do agree about that. In fact, part of my issue is that I think the country has been gradually moving towards the right since Nixon, and is presently too far in that direction, to the extent that a President like Obama, whose policies are to the right of virtually every Democratic president of the 20th and 21st centuries save Clinton, is now seen as an extreme lefty. It's why I'm hoping that a more moderate conservative wing will soon seize power back from the Tea Party and neo-con types.

I try not to be delusional about my own politics. I'm certainly to the left of center, and probably still would be even if the country's economic policy returned to where it was in the 40s and 50s. I do, however, respect pragmatic, responsible conservatism when I see it and will sometimes support those policies, depending on the situation. I don't respect the current Republican Party; their ideas don't seem realistic or responsible to me. And it's not just Bush, but also most of the current party leaders.

drunkoski;505454 said:

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just this thread must be 4 to 1 in favor of democrats when we count the different posters. i rarely if ever see republicans pulling nonsequitor bashings of obama or whatever in threads as well.

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It's 4 to 1 in favor of dems because we are Cal Bears! I wouldn't expect it any other way. And this is why you don't see republicans bashing Obama.....you're on the wrong site!

drunkoski;505454 said:

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just this thread must be 4 to 1 in favor of democrats when we count the different posters. i rarely if ever see republicans pulling nonsequitor bashings of obama or whatever in threads as well.

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This is exactly what I mean....

Last week there were numerous thread disparaging tea party people in threads unrelated to politics...just calling them stupid etc...here is an example.

Quote:

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Countless taxpayer (I realize, British, but nevertheless) monies spent supporting the lives of a few that by the good grace of their bloodlines they get to loaf around, doing as they please. Can you think of anything more anti-American

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...and GldnBear71 responded with this...

Quote:

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Sounds a lot like George W. Bush to me.

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http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=504998#post504998

Now I don't take particular offense to this but this kind of insult is directed way more towards conservatives than to liberals on this site..I don't respond to them but I notice it all the time ...... just the little digs that makes someone feel happy they got their insult in....

lol !!!!!!

drunkoski;505441 said:

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but i don't see clinton passing such a pork centric stimulus. .

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One man's "pork" is another man's "beef"
As in "Where's the beef?"

drunkoski;505481 said:

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and i agree the country is moving to the right. but that means center isn't where you consider it anymore right? obama is far left of the average person in this country.

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That's actually a complicated question. Polling seems to suggest that further-left policies are supported in the abstract, but right-leaning politicians have been elected anyway. It suggests that there's a disconnect in what people like and what they vote for.

The reasons behind this are, of course, up for debate, but suffice to say that just because top-level government policies have been trending further rightward, it does not necessarily follow that the population as a whole is right-leaning. I also don't think the population is that different now as opposed to 30-40 years ago so as to solely account for the dramatic shift in the political dialogue. Also, if Obama is really so far right of the general population, how did he get elected in a landslide just 4 years ago? The electorate can be fickle for a variety of reasons, which is why (IMO) it's better to look at macro trends.

Anyway, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole on this. As many will point out, this is supposed to be a football board. But it's not so simple as to just say "Obama's current poll ratings are down and the Dems just lost Congress, so that means the population is now fundamentally more conservative."

Cal_Fan2;505428 said:

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So you are saying the it is ok for the Admin to use the same tactics as FOX news?.....I"m saying tactics are tactics and both sides employ them.... if any news outlet televises spokespeople using these phrases, then they are giving a stage to those that employ them...like I wrote before but you didn't respond, MSNBC used the pejorative "tea baggers and tea bagging"... I didn't hear anyone else use them on purpose...I find both to be guilty..and I still stand by that..

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Did you not even read what I wrote? We've been talking about the biases of news organizations, and in that discussion it doesn't matter a bit whether politicians use similar "tactics". Politicians are expected to be biased but no, I don't think it's OK when they distort the truth. (The question of whether news organizations should run their distortions without comment is interesting but I think separate.)

As for MSNBC, I think you keep wanting to blur opinion and news programming, like you want to blur news organizations and politicians. MSNBC's news anchors have never used the pejorative "teabagger" (even though it was coined initially by the teabaggers themselves.) Their opinion folks (maddow, chris matthews) may use it, in the same way hannity and o'reilly use their own pejoratives. I think that's why you say that you "find both to be guilty"; you're comparing apples to oranges and saying that all fruit is red.

drunkoski;505483 said:

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it would be a sad day when all cal bears thought exactly the same thoughts and also felt like everyone should think they way they do. i remember when i was at cal people would tell me the didn't know any republicans and they were proud of this. I always thought that was a pretty sad and narrow way to live life. as for the lack of obama bashing, many here cannot leave politics out of the football posts and therefore your political views cloud your football views in their mind. sad, but true. most cal republicans are far more used to being in a sea of democrats and therefore don't take this as seriously.

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this. being a Republican @ Cal was amusing more than anything else. you got so used to the incessant liberal chest-beating that you tuned it out after a while.

drunkoski;505256 said:

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obama is a centrist I assume you believe right?

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Obama is very much like Clinton. To look at their policies, they are center, or center/left.

However, I believe that, were they omnipotent, their policies would be far more to the left. (I actually think either Clinton or Obama would make fine dictators, if we had to have one, but I digress.

They've adopted centrist policies because they think that's the best they can get, a compromise. Better to live and fight another day.

I would urge Obama to use his considerable communication skills to better sell his progressive ideas to the American people, but that's easy for me to say: I don't have to wake up every morning with the knowledge that about a third of the country thinks I'm a black, Muslim, foreign-born Socialist.

drunkoski;505483 said:

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it would be a sad day when all cal bears thought exactly the same thoughts and also felt like everyone should think they way they do. i remember when i was at cal people would tell me the didn't know any republicans and they were proud of this. I always thought that was a pretty sad and narrow way to live life.

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if you were at Cal for undergrad, remember that you were talking to 18-year-olds. They say a lot of dumb sh!t.

Cal made me more conservative. I'd still wind up 'D' on most issues, and I don't really consider Obama a liberal nutjob, but I definitely gained some new perspective.

But then I was an engineer, in a fraternity, and in ROTC. So i guess my influences weren't the Berkeley norm

Big C_Cal;505513 said:

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I would urge Obama to use his considerable communication skills to better sell his progressive ideas to the American people, but that's easy for me to say: I don't have to wake up every morning with the knowledge that about a third of the country thinks I'm a black, Muslim, foreign-born Socialist.

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Still....even after the long form was delivered?

jyamada;505519 said:

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Still....even after the long form was delivered?

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Yes. Many of the critics are waiting for "verification" of the long form. Whatever that means.

jyamada;505519 said:

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Still....even after the long form was delivered?

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BTW this thread is at 20 pages already.
Way to go Bears!

jyamada;505519 said:

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Still....even after the long form was delivered?

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Don't confuse me with the facts, please.

an untrustworthy ally inside your tent pi$$ing out than outside your tent pi$$ing in.

jankoski;504612 said:

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You've never heard of "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer"?

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By not telling Pakistan of our operation beforehand their government will be able to avoid the kind of retaliation that the extremists would undoubtedly apply if Pakistan had been a willing partner.

By burying Bin Laden in an undisclosed location at sea there can never be a shrine to his burial site.

Disposing of the carcass in a manner consistent with Islamic tradition minimizes the anger that might otherwise develop if he had been staked out for the buzzards to eat or publicly wrapped in a pig hide and dumped into the Mariana Trench.

It seems to me as if this operation went very well from start to finish. No messes to clean up.

If we had told the Pakistan govt. I'm sure another concern was him finding out a raid was imminent.

BearyWhite;505508 said:

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Did you not even read what I wrote? We've been talking about the biases of news organizations, and in that discussion it doesn't matter a bit whether politicians use similar "tactics". Politicians are expected to be biased but no, I don't think it's OK when they distort the truth. (The question of whether news organizations should run their distortions without comment is interesting but I think separate.)

As for MSNBC, I think you keep wanting to blur opinion and news programming, like you want to blur news organizations and politicians. MSNBC's news anchors have never used the pejorative "teabagger" (even though it was coined initially by the teabaggers themselves.) Their opinion folks (maddow, chris matthews) may use it, in the same way hannity and o'reilly use their own pejoratives. I think that's why you say that you "find both to be guilty"; you're comparing apples to oranges and saying that all fruit is red.

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I believe David Schuster was an anchor at one time...wasn't he? If not, I stand corrected... I get you point on news vs politicians....I'll give you that one..

Hey, ain't the song "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" the theme of this thread, you rustlers?"

SRBear;505533 said:

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If we had told the Pakistan govt. I'm sure another concern was him finding out a raid was imminent.

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It would have been like the FBI telling the Chicago Police that they were planning a surpise raid on Al Capone's HQ. Guess what. Al would not have been at the site of the raid when the FBI got there.

Big C_Cal said:

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I would urge Obama to use his considerable communication skills to better sell his progressive ideas to the American people, but that's easy for me to say: I don't have to wake up every morning with the knowledge that about a third of the country thinks I'm a black, Muslim, foreign-born Socialist.

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...who got into to Harvard as both an affirmative action admit and a legacy.

:p

drunkoski;505374 said:

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and i'd imagine people you consider left are what? ralph nader? i.e. people who aren't even members of the democratic party?

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So are you saying that Ralph Nader, the Green Party, the Socialist Party, the Communist Party, etc., are NOT on the left????

sycasey;505458 said:

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I do agree about that. In fact, part of my issue is that I think the country has been gradually moving towards the right since Nixon, and is presently too far in that direction, to the extent that a President like Obama, whose policies are to the right of virtually every Democratic president of the 20th and 21st centuries save Clinton, is now seen as an extreme lefty. It's why I'm hoping that a more moderate conservative wing will soon seize power back from the Tea Party and neo-con types.

I try not to be delusional about my own politics. I'm certainly to the left of center, and probably still would be even if the country's economic policy returned to where it was in the 40s and 50s. I do, however, respect pragmatic, responsible conservatism when I see it and will sometimes support those policies, depending on the situation. I don't respect the current Republican Party; their ideas don't seem realistic or responsible to me. And it's not just Bush, but also most of the current party leaders.

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+1

drunkoski;505666 said:

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never implied it was that simple, nor do i believe that. all i'm saying is that those two things certainly indicate that obama's policies aren't a ringing success with teh american people and that probably indicates they feel he's doing things they don't like and i doubt that's by going too right.

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I definitely don't think Obama's recent lack of popularity has anything to do with going too far right, though I also don't think he's been going too far left, so it's probably not that either. I think his poll numbers have sunk primarily because the economy still sucks and the unemployment rate is still high. It's certainly not Obama's fault that the economy sucked when he took over, but that's generally how it goes. A bad economy means the President is in bad shape.

I also think that Obama hasn't taken to the bully pulpit enough to sell his agenda. The health care bill, for example, was allowed to linger in Congress for months while various people tried to pork it up, and the Republicans could make up nonsense about death panels and such. In the end he got it passed, but only after the debate had been gummed up with a lot of misinformation. However, even if he'd gone on the hard-sell more often with policies like this, I don't think it would have helped much unless the economy improved faster; that's the big issue right now.

drunkoski;505691 said:

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if you think obama hasn't spoken enough to sell his agenda i don't know what to tell you. he's on tv at least twice as much as bush.

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I have no idea how often either President has been on TV, but yes, I do feel that Obama has not been aggressive enough in pushing his agenda. Or at the very least, the Democratic Party has not been aggressive enough in pushing Obama's agenda.

drunkoski;505670 said:

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i i'm saying that obama is in the left of HIS OWN PARTY which makes him far left of the majority of americans. nader is so far left he'd fall of the end of california.

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Sorry man but if you think that Obama is to the far left of his own party then you have been listening to the Fox News WAY TOO LONG.
Fox News: "Where truth is what we say it is!"