Serious question for DO and "negabears"

7,707 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 14 yr ago by BearsLair72
Son-of-California
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FingeroftheBear;553902 said:

The "bummer Bears", those that are habitually down on Cal to need to take a chill pill and smoke two joints.


After 30+ years of Cal football, things are looking better now than that have for a large part of my involvement with the program...So, I am usually a positive Bear, but I think I will still take your advice....
bar20
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socalBear23;553994 said:

I agree 100% with this. We have 1 losing year and now we expect to suck??? F that. I am not buying the 6 points from 8-4 crap, but give me Levy and we beat Washington.

This team is going to surprise A LOT of people if maynard is even Longshore-esque.


The fact that Mansion is 3rd string has me looking for a winning season. I hope in the Big Game we can do for Luck what we did for Elway. 8-5 with a bowl win would be nice!

The Tree is on the field..........
Unit2Sucks
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drunkoski;554024 said:

i don't quite get this. the record is what matters. outside of cal fans how many people remember if the losses were by 4 or 40? it hurts the ego most definetely.


Yeah I don't buy the notion that if we lose 8 games everyone will be happy if those losses are done "the right way." All that will happen will be that people will go from complaining about getting blown out to complaining about not being able to get over the hump and win the close one. Losing all your close games can be symptomatic of poor in-game decision making or lack of proper motivation. Last year we lost all of our close games - and we got blown out! There was no either/or scenario. I accept that we had no chance to win the blowouts, but losing the close games can be even more frustrating.

We need to turn the blowouts into 10-13 point losses and the close losses into wins this year. That would be progress.
elpbear
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drunkoski;554024 said:

i don't quite get this. the record is what matters. outside of cal fans how many people remember if the losses were by 4 or 40? it hurts the ego most definetely.
Seriously! I mean, that Arizona game last year must have felt great to everyone who apparently didn't care it was an L! We really showed up to play!

Record matters. How we play the game matters.

6-6 is my over/under, personally. I will not be upset at 6-6. Above that and below that my happiness with the program will increase or decrease respectively. Lack of or prevalence of blowout losses will factor in as well.
elpbear
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drunkoski;554127 said:

I stand by my statement that its not resonable to expect to win all your close games.
Agreed, but it is reasonable to expect to win roughly half of them. That would have got us 6-6 and a Holiday bowl berth. At the time I expected we'd just lose to Nebraska but if a UDub team that struggled to barely beat us could beat them, maybe we could have as well...

All that would have taken was a single goal-line stand on 4th down (not to say it was the defense's fault... but one down would have ended the game). That's pretty darn close.

Anyway, not to rehash this, but I think winning 1/2 your close games is a reasonable idea.
calbare
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Smoke two joints, then smoke two joints...and then, smoke two more.
Cal84
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I don't think of myself as a Negabear, but I am on record predicting a 6-6 season. Nor do I think that a 6-6 season (or better) is a necessary condition for believing that progress is occurring in the FB program. Unlike the majority of posters on this board, my view is that the biggest change for the FB program for the period 8/2000-8/2012 ( a 24 month period of time centered on today) will be the completion of SAHPC. The full impact of SAHPC will not be felt for years. Thus to a certain extent what happens on the field this season is frankly a lot less significant than what happens off the field for the next couple of years.

But as far as the on the field stuff, could I be OK with less than 6 wins? Sure, it depends on what happens. If we lose 4 keys starters on offense to injury before conference play starts, I don't see how anyone would think that 6 wins wouldn't be remarkable. Or we could have 4 wins and then beat an undefeated Furd team knocking them out of a possible NC game. You can never tell what shizzat will happen in CFB.

Like many posters, I just don't want to see blowout losses.
dajo9
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drunkoski;553854 said:

7-5, considering the more difficult schedule, would be a good sign of progress (particurally followed by a bowl win).

8-4 with a bowl win would renew my faith that JT can turn things around with a tentative look to 2012 for the real determination.

any sort of 10 win (9-3 with bowl win or 10-2) season would get me on the bandwaggon.


Drunkoski's previously stated happiness metrics for this season are in my sig line. Slightly different from above.
dajo9
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drunkoski;554531 said:

i'm failing to see the difference. did you seriously think that 8-4 would anyones faith in JT forever no matter what he does in 2012?


My sig (based on your earlier comments) says 8-4 (no bowl game requirement) would restore your faith in Tedford. The more recent post says 8-4 with a bowl game win would restore your faith in Tedford.

I made your earlier comment my sig because you are notorious for moving the goalpost on people. I didn't think you would move it before the season started though. I guess I misunderestimated you.

Also, your earlier comments didn't say anything about a real determination in 2012. That's just moving the goalposts again so you can continue to malign Tedford in the offseason even if he hits your 2011 targets.
dajo9
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drunkoski;554583 said:

no people are notorious for taking something i said and inventing their own interpretations. in what world is restoring your faith in someone mean a lifetime restoration? would you seriously be happy with 8-4 in 2011 and 0-12 in 2012? i wrote a one sentence response in the private forum. it was hardly a definitive declaration of any variety by me. clarifying my position with a longer post isn't moving the goalposts. that's pure idiocy. stop reading into what i post. this is getting ridiculous. your signatiture completely extrapolated that 8 wins with the bowl would be "spectacular" when i never said anything remotely similar to that. stop putting words in my mouth.


DO, you sent me a private message that you were satisfied with the accuracy of my sig line as it currently reads.

Your response to me hasn't addressed the goalpost move of adding a bowl game win to the original 8-4 requirement.

I think it's fair to think that if you post that an 8-4 regular season would restore your faith in Tedford that that would mean at least a few months into the following offseason. You talking about a lifetime restoration is you putting words in my mouth.

I doubt you'll find many defenders here in regards to your tendency to move goalposts.
dajo9
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drunkoski;554599 said:

this theory because i included the bowl game in thsi response and not in yours makes it "changing the goalposts" is ridiculous.


That explains a lot about why you have so many disagreements with so many people.
dajo9
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drunkoski;554612 said:

so in your opinion the only way for me not to change the goal posts would be to list every possible record for this year and my opinion of tedford based on it?


No, I never said that.
dajo9
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drunkoski;554628 said:

i'm just failing to see where i said that 8-4 with a bowl loss would not renew my faith in tedford? THAT woudl be changing the goalposts. you ASSUMED that the inclusion of the bowl win IN THIS THREAD was me changing my opinion without asking whether taht was the case. do you see why i find that rather annoying?


8-4 with a bowl win is a higher threshold than 8-4. That is moving the goalposts.
BeachyBear
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drunkoski;554583 said:

in what world is restoring your faith in someone mean a lifetime restoration? your signatiture completely extrapolated that 8 wins with the bowl would be "spectacular" when i never said anything remotely similar to that. stop putting words in my mouth.


JT could never win enough games to satisfy the negabears. They're more concerned with being right, which to them means replacing Tedford, than being happy with the football program.

All you have to do is look at these same posters on the BB board and how they bend over backward to apologize for every Monty loss, no matter how dreadful (Braun NEVER had a Notre Dame kind of game in his entire tenure. I like Monty, and agree with Sandy's choice, but just saying.)

This is 100% personal and ego-driven - these people want to be right more than anything. Better to just have fun with the negabears and treat them like the stubborn idiots they are than actually try and reason with them.

:tedford
TheFiatLux
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I'm pretty sure if Monty did that people would be upset.

drunkoski;554656 said:

how many "negabears" existed from 02-06? are you seriously arguing tedford could win a national championship and people would still not be happy?

monty coud literally take a dump at midcourt for 5 straight games and still be a better coach than braun. the fact you are even making the comparison tells us all we need to know about you. i bet you argued braun was the best coach we've ever had. sound similar?
elpbear
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dajo9;554595 said:

I doubt you'll find many defenders here in regards to your tendency to move goalposts.
Normally, no. However, I find it ludicrous to think that someone's evaluation of what a 'successful' season would be can't change over time from spring to fall to the actual season. Everyone reassesses their predictions... and this is a very small reassessment (or perhaps, clarification).

If after the season we win 8 games and DO writes passionately how it's a colossal failure and Tedford should be fired, feel free to bring up how he said he'd be happy with 8-4. Until then... please stop feeding the fire, and pick one of the more legit opportunities to complain.
Blueblood
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"Somebody please throw a handful of sand in BeachyBear's
mouth!"


And....what about your continuous follow-up posts PeachyBear aren't they similarly driven by ego? Don't make me laugh! Like my ego has said it's not any number of wins (unless we're a'talkin' all wins) with regards to Tedford. I'm not advocating his replacement at this juncture, just merely pointing out that we're (Yes, including you) getting short-changed.....
BTUR
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I don't really understand the fixation on blowout losses I've seen in this thread. When people have looked at the relationship between points and winning, they've found, pretty much universally across sports (at least the major ones like basketball, baseball, football), that point differential is a much better measure of how a team performed than actual win-loss record; it's a strong predictor of future success. To simplify it a little bit, essentially you have to think of games in 3 ways: games you get blown out, close games, and games you blow the other team out. The first and third are ones where the outcome is not by chance, but the middle one....well, chance plays a huge role in those games. Drunkoski is right - you can not expect a team to continually win all its close games. Too much random chance involved. Good teams put the other team down enough that even good luck won't help them. So, to relate that back to my original point...there's a lot of focus on the blowout losses (for good reason)...yet there's no mention of the blowout wins? Those are important indicators of the teams ability, too, and you know what Cal did last year? Stomped UCLA, stomped ASU, and completely embarrassed Colorado. They took luck out of the equation in those games, and it says pretty positive things about the team.

I can see how Tedford's comment about being a few points away from 8-4 sounds ridiculous. Of course any time you take out the bad things that happen you look better. It doesn't make for valid analysis. In this particular case, I don't think it's that far off, though. The losses to Nevada, USC, Oregon State, and Stanford were not luck, Cal got crushed, and those games should be chalked up to losses. Similarly, the wins over Davis, Colorado, UCLA and ASU were all real wins. The other four were the games where random chance played a big role. WSU, Arizona, Washington, Oregon. Cal actually had a positive point differential in those games, and with neutral luck, probably should have ended up with 6 wins and a bowl appearance on the season. So yeah, 8-4 is pushing it, but Cal was very likely on the bad end of random chance, so to some degree, Tedford does have a point.

Now, this isn't stuff I'm just coming up with because it supports my argument. A decent amount of research has been done on these statistics. If you check out the Sagarin ratings, they support the notion that Cal was unlucky last year - Sagarin's point predictor rating had Cal as the 27th best team in the country last year. It's entirely based on point differential (because of point differential's track record in predicting future performance, or in other words, measuring a teams "true talent level"), so being blown out is heavily frowned upon by those ratings, yet it still thought Cal had a pretty good team last year. Combination of bad luck and 6th toughest schedule in CFB did them in. More than that, though, is that I'm trying to make the case for giving equal weight to blowout wins. As blowout losses should be frowned upon, blowout wins should be celebrated.

This year I'm expecting Cal to be a 7-5 team. A little bad luck means 6-6, a little good luck means 8-4. A lot more luck and things could go farther in one of those directions. I think it will be exciting to watch the new guys play, and what I'm really looking for is to see if there's a lot of young talent out there that looks poised to take a step forward next season. That would be encouraging, especially if another highly touted recruiting class comes in with it.
Phantomfan
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drunkoski;554024 said:

i don't quite get this. the record is what matters. outside of cal fans how many people remember if the losses were by 4 or 40? it hurts the ego most definetely.


Are you kidding?


The COUNTRY remembers.

Tennessee - EVERYONE remembers a shell shocked Cal. Only Cal fans remember the small comeback at the end. That lasted until we rolled them in Berkeley.


Texas Tech - non-Cal fans still talk about Cal in big games using this example. As a matter of fact, it is mentioned in almost every BCS-is-bad story (Cal was kept out of the RB by Texas begging for votes, but they went on to get crushed).


Maryland was talk of the town for a good part of the season (with Best puking as the perfect visual to keep the story playing).


Oregon and USC were mostly forgotten because by that time, Cal had already fallen off the map.



Matter of fact, I think Cal, more than any school, gets being blown up played-up by the national media.
Blueblood
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I wholeheartedly agree with Phantomfan.
BearsLair72
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Couldn't agree more...we might sneak up on a few folks but this memorial Stadium thing is not good, no matter how you cut it....AT&T IS NOT Memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh and I might add, a Big Game win rubbing Luck's face in Bear scat would do wonders for my view of JT!

drunkoski;553854 said:

7-5, considering the more difficult schedule, would be a good sign of progress (particurally followed by a bowl win).

8-4 with a bowl win would renew my faith that JT can turn things around with a tentative look to 2012 for the real determination.

any sort of 10 win (9-3 with bowl win or 10-2) season would get me on the bandwaggon.
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