TheSouseFamily said:

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Update on Slidergate with some results from last night's game's starters:

"Dallas Keuchel, Houston's starter on Sunday, typically has an excellent slider. During the regular season, he threw it 18% of the time. Some 61 percent of his regular season sliders ended up as strikes, and batters hit just .167 against it, with three home runs.

On Sunday, though, Keuchel could barely get it over the plate. The 2015 Cy Young winner threw just seven of his 17 sliders for strikes41%and they didn't behave nearly as they usually do. While this season, on average, he's thrown the pitch with an average of 6.39 inches of horizontal break and 1.19 of vertical break, on Sunday it was just 4.92 inches and 0.51 inches. The two-run single that Logan Forsythe lined to left in the top of the first came on an 81 MPH slider; Keuchel lasted just 3.2 innings, allowing four runs."

"Keuchel's counterpart, Clayton Kershaw, also throws a superb slider. During the regular season, he threw it even more than Keuchel (34% of the time) with even better command. It produced a strike 68.3% of the time. While Kershaw's sliders on Sunday broke more or less as they usually doperhaps his skill is just so greathe couldn't find the plate with them with anything near his usual consistency. Just 20 of his 39 attempts were strikes51%. You probably don't have to guess the nature of the pitch that Yuli Gurriel drove deep to left, in the bottom of the fourth, to ensure that a 4 run lead that not long before seemed insurmountable completely evaporated. It was a slider, a pitch with which he'd allowed just three homers all season long. And Kershaw's 94th and last pitch of the night, which he buried in the dirt to walk Alex Bregman with two outs in the fifth? A slider."

https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/30/houston-astros-los-angeles-dodgers-game-5-world-series-slick-baseball

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If there is a question about slicker baseballs I'm surprised no one is looking into the guys who rub them up before the game. It used to be the umpires' job but I've been told someone else does it now. Maybe the 'special' mud they use has changed. Maybe the guy doing it was in a hurry and didn't do a good job. In this day and age the balls could be manufactured so they don't need any rubbing up.

sycasey said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

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I'd say the "should have" for Game 5 is that the Dodger offense put up double-digit runs in a game with their ace on the mound, and he couldn't hold the lead, again turning it over to the bullpen far too early.

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I don't see how you can say Roberts went to the bullpen too early in game 5. Kershaw had clearly mentally lost it in the 4th inning. I didn't want to see Kershaw come out for the 5th inning. Sure enough, he walked 2 before being pulled. He got 2 outs but both those batters crushed the ball.

dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

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I'd say the "should have" for Game 5 is that the Dodger offense put up double-digit runs in a game with their ace on the mound, and he couldn't hold the lead, again turning it over to the bullpen far too early.

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I don't see how you can say Roberts went to the bullpen too early in game 5. Kershaw had clearly mentally lost it in the 4th inning. I didn't want to see Kershaw come out for the 5th inning. Sure enough, he walked 2 before being pulled. He got 2 outs but both those batters crushed the ball.

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To be clear: I'm saying it's Kershaw's fault they had to turn to the bullpen too early in Game 5. Roberts helped create the bad situation by using too many relievers in Game 2.

Yogi Bear said:

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sycasey said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

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Sometimes in people's glee to rip Kershaw, they forget all about Game 1 of the 2010 Series.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=301027126

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Interesting that you pick on a game that the Giants won, when Lincecum didn't truly stink. Yes, in the early innings of that game, he looked to me to be, uh, perhaps under the influence. Either that, or he was struggling with NOT being under the influence. His play on the Cruz comebacker in the first didn't end up resulting in more than the one run already allowed in the opening inning, but man, there was a guy seeming to be in a drug induced haze. Lincecum may have looked like he was high when that game started, but he was better after the first and never looked like a choker. Looked like he was tiring faster than normal in the 6th after the Giants had an 8-2 lead, yes, but not like a choker.

Each of Lincecum, Cain, and Bumgarner was the Giants ace for one of the World Series runs. Lincecum was lights out in the first and last of his 5 games in the 2010 run, and OK in the other 3, with his win in game 1 of the World Series being the worst. Not sure I'd call him "great" in the 2010 post-season, not as great as Cain in the 2010 post-season (zero ER in 3 starts), but great in 2 of his 5 games.

Cain was the ace in 2012, but couldn't come close to his 2010 post-season. He wasn't great in any games, a somewhat ineffective loser in two of his first 3, and the other being NLDS game 5 where he was really good for 4 innings and then after getting a 6-0 lead, not so good, and bailed out in part by Dusty's ill-advised double steal call on Cain's last pitch of the game, Dusty sending the runners 3-2 for a K/CS DP. Cain even struggled early in game 7 against the Cards, letting a runner get into scoring position in each of the first 3 innings, then settled down to pitch 2 more innings when he had a 7-0 lead. His one WS game in 2012 was OK but not great, 3 runs in 7 innings. No, Cain had his "great" post-season in 2010 when he wasn't the ace.

Bum was ace in 2014 and, except for the game against the Nationals when his own fielding brain freeze led to the Nat's runs, he was beyond great.

So you have Bum great in 2014, Cain great in 2010 when he wasn't the ace, and Lincecum great for 2 of 5 games in 2010.

The Giants had one pitcher with a "great" post-season in each of their 3 championship seasons, Cain in 2010, Bum in 2014, and the third one being from someone who wasn't even an ace. The OP in this thread was "Vogelsong > Kershaw" and in spite of not being the ace of the staff, Vogelsong had a great post-season in 2012, the best post-season of any Giants pitcher other than Bum during the World Series run, even better than Lincecum in 2010, with 4 starts and 3 earned runs, going 3-0 with the Giants winning the other game 2-1 in extra innings. The Giants don't win the 2012 World Series unless Vogelsong is great in the post-season that year.

The difference with Kershaw is that he has been the Dodgers ace for 5 post-seasons in a row. And in spite of being a better regular season pitcher each of those years than Lincecum was in 2010, Cain was in 2012, or Bum was in 2014, Kershaw has struggled, and at times clearly choked. The greatest regular season pitcher in baseball in over the past 5 years ought to be great in at least 1 of his 5 post-seasons in that stretch. But no. Even before the disaster on Sunday, Kershaw's 2017 post-season wasn't nearly as good as Vogelsong's 2012.

If, in 5 tries over a stretch when he's the best regular season pitcher in major league baseball, Kershaw can't at least match Vogelsong's 2012 post-season once, if he can't be "great" in at least one of those 5 post-seasons, then as nutty as statement is it is on the surface (and to bring the thread back to the topic of the OP), "Vogelsong > Kershaw" is, at least in one way, a fair statement.

It worked so well the last time that Roberts took Hill out of a game early that he did it again. Morrow has to be near empty.

And Roberts was booed for it.

6th inning. Time for #MLBAfterDark

It will be very interesting now that the Dodgers have taken the lead how long the Astros stick with Verlander. He's currently at 93 pitches through 6. I'd expect him to go at least one more unless something goes really wrong for them in the 7th.

I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

chazzed said:

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I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

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Greatest. Series. ****?

Go Dodgers!

Sandy Koufax is God

chazzed said:

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I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

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Tonight was more like a regular mellow baseball game compared to Game 5

Redemption for the Dodger bull pen. Morrow Maeda and Kenley all come through. History is on the Dodgers side. GREAT SERIES.

Yogi Bear said:

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chazzed said:

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I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

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Tonight was more like a regular mellow baseball game compared to Game 5

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True. I guess this series has had it all, so far.

chazzed said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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chazzed said:

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I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

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Tonight was more like a regular mellow baseball game compared to Game 5

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True. I guess this series has had it all, so far.

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EDIT: I was very pleased to see Morrow come back and pitch decently today.

chazzed said:

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chazzed said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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chazzed said:

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I suppose it's fitting that this series is going 7 games. So entertaining.

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Tonight was more like a regular mellow baseball game compared to Game 5

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True. I guess this series has had it all, so far.

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EDIT: I was very pleased to see Morrow come back and pitch decently today.

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The Bear does not die, the Bear does not quit.

Now that they're over the Verlander hump, I'd favor the Dodgers to win in Game 7.

But that said, it's one game where anything can happen. Baseball is weird.

Yeah, anything can happen. Both teams are grinders. Neither will quit til after the last Out is recorded. Hoping home field means something and having Wood and Kershaw in pen bodes well forcthe tram I grew up with. That said, these Astros are a tough lineup.

A very entertaining World Series!

Beardog26 said:

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Yeah, anything can happen. Both teams are grinders. Neither will quit til after the last Out is recorded. Hoping home field means something and having Wood and Kershaw in pen bodes well forcthe tram I grew up with. That said, these Astros are a tough lineup.

A very entertaining World Series!

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This has been a great World Series. Whichever team (yes, even the Dodgers) wins it will surely deserve to be Champs.

This has been a very entertaining World Series (if you can stand games that are mostly too long), but it hasn't exactly been a great World Series. No jaw dropping pitching performances, a lot of bad pitching especially from the bullpens, not many jaw dropping defensive plays, some bad defensive plays, some clutch hitting, but a lot of the "clutch" hits off crappy pitchers who were having command issues (and too many runs from gives given free bases through walks and HBP), plus some offense due to a bandbox ballpark where pop flies to left like the one Correa hit in game 5 ending up as home runs (when it opened as Enron Field, it was known as TenRun Field for a reason). Things were so bad that in a game where the home plate ump had a strike zone the size (and shape) of Texas, and the game should have had a low score, it was tied 12-12 after 9. Sheesh, that's not good baseball, this isn't what we expect from two teams that had over 100 wins each in the regular season.

Games 2 and 5 ended up as exciting games due to crappy bullpens. That makes for an exciting series, but not for a great series. There have been a lot of better series in my lifetime, and a lot of series that were at least as, if not more, exciting.

Of course, game 7 will always color our memories of how exciting a series, so tonight will have a big effect on how this series will go down in history. Get a really exciting game 7 like 1960, 1997, 2001, 2016, and we'll look back on the series much more fondly than if it is a snooze fest like 1985, 2002, or the back half of game 7 2011.

NYCGOBEARS said:

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Beardog26 said:

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Yeah, anything can happen. Both teams are grinders. Neither will quit til after the last Out is recorded. Hoping home field means something and having Wood and Kershaw in pen bodes well forcthe tram I grew up with. That said, these Astros are a tough lineup.

A very entertaining World Series!

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This has been a great World Series. Whichever team (yes, even the Dodgers) wins it will surely deserve to be Champs.

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No, only one team deserves to be champs, and this will be the 4th time in the last 8 years that I will live within 12 miles of the World Series champs.

Beardog26 said:

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Yeah, anything can happen. Both teams are grinders. Neither will quit til after the last Out is recorded. Hoping home field means something and having Wood and Kershaw in pen bodes well forcthe tram I grew up with. That said, these Astros are a tough lineup.

A very entertaining World Series!

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I'm so annoyed that the so-called experts are talking about how the Astros great offense wasn't as great last night without thinking to mention that the bandbox they play in has everything to do with all the home runs they were hitting. Dodger Stadium much more favors the pitcher.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Almost makes me wonder if the Dodgers should roll out Wood instead of Darvish in a potential game 7

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Whoever said this was a genius.

Man, Darvish was awful in this series.

Still, this lead is not Astros bullpen proof.

His ERA is 21 lol

Hard to believe the regular season ended a month ago. On the bright side, this extra month of practices will help develop the young guys and should help with recruiting.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Hard to believe the regular season ended a month ago. On the bright side, this extra month of practices will help develop the young guys and should help with recruiting.

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Put the bourbon down. It'll be OK.

NYCGOBEARS said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Hard to believe the regular season ended a month ago. On the bright side, this extra month of practices will help develop the young guys and should help with recruiting.

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Put the bourbon down. It'll be OK.

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Lol. Are you staring through my window? I'm pretty sure this is why bourbon was invented.

TheSouseFamily said:

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NYCGOBEARS said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Hard to believe the regular season ended a month ago. On the bright side, this extra month of practices will help develop the young guys and should help with recruiting.

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Put the bourbon down. It'll be OK.

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Lol. Are you staring through my window? I'm pretty sure this is why bourbon was invented.

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My bad. Have a double.

Well Darvish won't be resigned for next year. Wood would have been a better choice.

Astros 5 Dodgers 1. Houston wins the series.

What a great pitching by committee performance in game 7.

Well maybe next year. Dodgers win the last 7 innings.

Fantastic series LA. Know that this is much appreciated in Houston right now.