Hey Dodgers Fans

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GBear4Life
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9:49p, 10/9/19
I'm not a Dodgers fan, but it's really interesting to see people hate on a franchise that sets itself to compete for a ring every single year.

Dodgers spend a lot of money, but they've developed a lot of stars.
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ducky23
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In reply to eastbayyoungbear • 9:51p, 10/9/19
eastbayyoungbear said:
I feel like after a point it's almost better to be consistently and predictably bad than consistently good but never good enough.


You kidding? What the dodgers have done in the last 5 years is way more impressive than what the giants did from 2010-2014. Everyone knows that
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sycasey
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In reply to GBear4Life • 9:53p, 10/9/19
GBear4Life said:
Another example of the clearly better team losing in a short playoff series.

Moral victories are awesome.
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panda
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In reply to GBear4Life • 9:59p, 10/9/19
GBear4Life said:
I'm not a Dodgers fan, but it's really interesting to see people hate on a franchise that sets itself to compete for a ring every single year.

Dodgers spend a lot of money, but they've developed a lot of stars.


And yet they never win a ring.
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BulaBear3cubs
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10:00p, 10/9/19
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sonofabear51
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10:02p, 10/9/19
Nothing like BEAT LA!!
Start Slowly and taper off
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panda
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In reply to Adrian The Cal Bear • 10:10p, 10/9/19
Adrian The Cal Bear said:
Vogelsong > Kershaw


Still true to this day in the rings column
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sycasey
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In reply to KoreAmBear • 10:11p, 10/9/19
KoreAmBear said:
tequila4kapp said:
I'm seriously so over Dave Roberts. He brings in Kershaw (worst playoff pitcher ever) and Kelly (worst pitcher on the roster) with the series on the line, It's like he was trying to lose. Fire him tonight.
Friedman continues to go cheap on the bullpen year after year.

Roberts letting Kersh pitch to 2 straight HR hitters.

Kelly was bad all year. Kenley wasn't much better.

Good night now.

Only silver lining is that Howie had a career moment. He was basically the scapegoat all series. But I always appreciated the way he approached the game. Happy for him., Back to more pleasant topics -- the Cal offense.

Letting Kelly stay in after putting two runners on was bizarre, and after pitching to three batters in the previous inning. Can't go to anyone else?
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Golden One
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In reply to ducky23 • 10:35p, 10/9/19
ducky23 said:
eastbayyoungbear said:
I feel like after a point it's almost better to be consistently and predictably bad than consistently good but never good enough.


You kidding? What the dodgers have done in the last 5 years is way more impressive than what the giants did from 2010-2014. Everyone knows that
I don't know about that. During that 5-year time span the Giants won 3 World Series titles. The Dodgers haven't won even one title in 3 decades.
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dimitrig
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10:41p, 10/9/19

I have to say that I thought Smith's hard hit ball in the 9th would do it, but it didn't quite make it out.

The Dodgers biggest failings in recent postseasons (other than the disaster that was Yu Darvish) fall on their biggest stars: Belllinger, Kershaw, Jansen. If those guys perform anywhere near their regular season selves the Dodgers have a title by now - maybe more. The supporting cast and the journeymen have done their parts. Sure, Urias and Kelly and Baez could have done more but the simple fact remains that 2 of the losses in this series were largely the fault of Kershaw. The same was true in the WS. I feel really bad for Kershaw, because he is a great pitcher but his postseason legacy is not good. Maybe he needs a fresh start somewhere else.
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OneKeg
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In reply to Golden One • 10:41p, 10/9/19
Golden One said:
ducky23 said:
eastbayyoungbear said:
I feel like after a point it's almost better to be consistently and predictably bad than consistently good but never good enough.


You kidding? What the dodgers have done in the last 5 years is way more impressive than what the giants did from 2010-2014. Everyone knows that
I don't know about that. During that 5-year time span the Giants won 3 World Series titles. The Dodgers haven't won even one title in 3 decades.


Golden One - I think ducky was being sarcastic. Caricaturing things Dodger fans have said recently.
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dimitrig
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In reply to sycasey • 10:42p, 10/9/19
sycasey said:
KoreAmBear said:
tequila4kapp said:
I'm seriously so over Dave Roberts. He brings in Kershaw (worst playoff pitcher ever) and Kelly (worst pitcher on the roster) with the series on the line, It's like he was trying to lose. Fire him tonight.
Friedman continues to go cheap on the bullpen year after year.

Roberts letting Kersh pitch to 2 straight HR hitters.

Kelly was bad all year. Kenley wasn't much better.

Good night now.

Only silver lining is that Howie had a career moment. He was basically the scapegoat all series. But I always appreciated the way he approached the game. Happy for him., Back to more pleasant topics -- the Cal offense.

Letting Kelly stay in after putting two runners on was bizarre, and after pitching to three batters in the previous inning. Can't go to anyone else?
Kenley Jansen would have just served up the long ball himself.
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Golden One
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In reply to OneKeg • 10:42p, 10/9/19
OneKeg said:
Golden One said:
ducky23 said:
eastbayyoungbear said:
I feel like after a point it's almost better to be consistently and predictably bad than consistently good but never good enough.


You kidding? What the dodgers have done in the last 5 years is way more impressive than what the giants did from 2010-2014. Everyone knows that
I don't know about that. During that 5-year time span the Giants won 3 World Series titles. The Dodgers haven't won even one title in 3 decades.


Golden One - I think ducky was being sarcastic. Caricaturing things Dodger fans have said recently.
OK. Thanks.
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GBear4Life
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In reply to panda • 10:44p, 10/9/19
panda said:
GBear4Life said:
I'm not a Dodgers fan, but it's really interesting to see people hate on a franchise that sets itself to compete for a ring every single year.

Dodgers spend a lot of money, but they've developed a lot of stars.


And yet they never win a ring.
Yeah, it's a bummer for them and their fans.

A statistical anomaly for sure, though that's never comforting for fans.
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sycasey
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10:53p, 10/9/19
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GBear4Life
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In reply to ducky23 • 11:08p, 10/9/19
ducky23 said:
eastbayyoungbear said:
I feel like after a point it's almost better to be consistently and predictably bad than consistently good but never good enough.


You kidding? What the dodgers have done in the last 5 years is way more impressive than what the giants did from 2010-2014. Everyone knows that
It is. It's not the goal, but it is more difficult

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GMP
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11:13p, 10/9/19
A few thoughts:

First, I love this thread. It's interesting to get Dodger fan perspectives, because I live in a mostly Giants/a little A's fan bubble. And it's cool that we all have something we love in common; it's like I have a bunch of Dodger fan cousins.

Second, the Dodgers have certainly had an impressive run for the last 7 years. But those who argued before the playoffs that it was a more impressive run than the 2010-2014 Giants are lying to themselves. This isn't European soccer. We don't play for regular season crowns. You can say it's random, you can say it's a small sample size. But that would mean you can't celebrate the next time your team does win the World Series. And we all know that's not happening.

Third, the Dodgers losing in the playoffs again underscores just how impressive the 2010-2014 Giants run really was, and how great Bochy was pulling the strings.

Fourth, saw this on twitter tonight:



I know this is not all Dodger fans, not close. But stuff like this is not a good look. I can say pretty confidently, having seen Lincecum's career flame out, that Giants fans would not ever do anything like this.

I can't wait till next spring; and, really, Spring 2021 - the kids are coming!
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sycasey
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In reply to GMP • 11:24p, 10/9/19
GMP said:
I know this is not all Dodger fans, not close. But stuff like this is not a good look. I can say pretty confidently, having seen Lincecum's career flame out, that Giants fans would not ever do anything like this.

Of course not, Lincecum came up big in his first postseason and got us out first trophy.
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71Bear
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In reply to TheSouseFamily • 11:44p, 10/9/19
TheSouseFamily said:
GMP said:
Serious question for Dodger fans:

Scherzer just got through the 7th, but he's probably done. You trail by 5. If you can't get 6 in the next two innings, you head home but the Nats have Strasburg on almost full rest (4 days).

What's your concern level, 1-10, at this moment?



Before I answer your question, I'll say that my expectation for winning a WS title (before the playoffs began) was a 1 with a 0 being not at all confident and a 10 being supremely confident.

As for this series and a game 5, I think it's a 50/50 proposition with Strasburg going. The Nats are set up to be a very dangerous post-season team with their top 2 starters plus a very effective Corbin. Would be disappointing for the Dodgers to lose the NLDS series but not a total shocker.
Kershaw is a Hall of Famer but his overall record is tarnished by his post season results. It truly is one of the enduring mysteries of baseball.

I really thought this was LA's year. As Grant Brisbee has written many times (most recently in The Athletic) - brace yourselves Giants fans, it will happen, Sooner or later, it will happen. The Dodgers are just too good.

As it turned out, I failed to factor their weak pen into the equation. Heck, during the Giants run, they had the Core 4 closing games. That and Bochy's masterful handling of his relievers was the secret sauce.

Now, I guess I'll be pulling for the Expos, err, I mean Nats......

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BeggarEd
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9:16a, 10/10/19
Kershaw needs to leave L.A. His legacy is forever tainted there and I don't think he'll ever be able to overcome the stigma.

Also - like the 1993 Giants who won 103 games and didn't even make the playoffs (thanks to no wildcard and the 104 win Braves who were in the NL "West" at the time), the 2019 Dodgers and their 106 wins will go down as merely a statistical oddity and a minor footnote in baseball history.
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sycasey
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In reply to BeggarEd • 9:28a, 10/10/19
BeggarEd said:
Kershaw needs to leave L.A. His legacy is forever tainted there and I don't think he'll ever be able to overcome the stigma.

Also - like the 1993 Giants who won 103 games and didn't even make the playoffs (thanks to no wildcard and the 104 win Braves who were in the NL "West" at the time), the 2019 Dodgers and their 106 wins will go down as merely a statistical oddity and a minor footnote in baseball history.

Don't forget the 2001 Mariners.
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KoreAmBear
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In reply to BeggarEd • 9:30a, 10/10/19
The loss is really more on Roberts than Kershaw or Kelly, like the losses last year were more on Baldwin than McIlwain or Garbers. There was no reason to even begin the 8th inning with Kersh much less continue with him after allowing a bomb to Rendon. There was no reason to go two innings with Kelly much less keep him in after he walked Eaton. Roberts has mismanaged the bully in the playoffs all four years he's been a manager and esp in 2017 when the Dodgers blew at least 2 games where they should have won the series easily v the Astros. As Pedro says, I tip my hat to Bochy and call him my daddy.
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GBear4Life
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9:30a, 10/10/19
Kershaw's post season struggles are pretty inexplicable.

Hard to believe that any Dodger fan wants him "gone". He's arguably the best pitcher in the last 20 years.

Trading him for value (multiple young players with upside) makes sense (Kershaw's had his best year, and may start trending down soon) if the Dodgers want to make payroll room for up and coming young players whose pay day is approaching.
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KoreAmBear
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In reply to GBear4Life • 9:38a, 10/10/19
GBear4Life said:
Kershaw's post season struggles are pretty inexplicable.

Hard to believe that any Dodger fan wants him "gone". He's arguably the best pitcher in the last 20 years.

Trading him for value (multiple young players with upside) makes sense (Kershaw's had his best year, and may start trending down soon) if the Dodgers want to make payroll room for up and coming young players whose pay day is approaching.


Yesterday was not inexplicable in terms of what would happen if Kershaw was left in . Kersh is not the same pitcher he once was and so the ironic thing was that it would not been good analytics to have him pitch v Rendon and Soto. Could have had Maeda pitch to Rendon and Koleric pitch to Soto and still had plenty of bullpen left. Roberts actually went with his gut (and over loyalty to Kersh) and that burned him badly. He also went with "feel" by going Kelly two innings as he said since Kelly only had 10 pitches in the 9th and the ball was coming out good out of his hand, he we stayed with him. But Kelly's 9th inning was the outlier as he's been horrible all year. Maybe Dave should stick to analytics. I'm sure Friedman was having a cow in his box.
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GMP
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In reply to GBear4Life • 9:39a, 10/10/19
GBear4Life said:
Kershaw's post season struggles are pretty inexplicable.

Hard to believe that any Dodger fan wants him "gone". He's arguably the best pitcher in the last 20 years.

Trading him for value (multiple young players with upside) makes sense (Kershaw's had his best year, and may start trending down soon) if the Dodgers want to make payroll room for up and coming young players whose pay day is approaching.


No one is trading multiple young players for Kershaw. The decline began two years ago. His fastball was sitting 89 last night, the same speed as his slider, and it averaged 90.2 this year and 90.0 last year. Plus, he'd be a two year rental (he signed a 3 year deal before this season) at $31M per year. No one is touching that for any significant prospect. No one is likely touching it at all unless the Dodgers swallow a huge chunk of that money.
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TheSouseFamily
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9:46a, 10/10/19
Kershaw is basically a meme at this point and I hate that for the guy because he's such a quality person. But I don't put the blame on Kershaw. He simply never should have been out there. Anyone with a functioning neocortex could tell you that. Roberts has basically become the managerial version of Kershaw: quality guy, masterful over the 162 game grind, and a head-scratching abject failure in the post season. Roberts' post-season decisions with the bullpen have been brutally awful. Not just one, many. This puts the Dodgers in a quandary. Do you keep a quality guy who can have great regular seasons every year? Then, Roberts is your guy. If you want more than that, he clearly isn't.

Having said all that, I never felt this team would win it this year, not with the bullpen the way it is. I don't know many Dodger fans who were particularly optimistic going into the post-season. The two previous years, the Dodgers simply got beaten by better clubs (despite the poor managerial decisions). No shame in that. This year is a little different. It's a combination of "that's baseball for ya" and horrendous decision-making when it mattered.
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bearister
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10:12a, 10/10/19
Greg Norman was the Kershaw of golf.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Cal8285
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In reply to panda • 10:14a, 10/10/19
panda said:
Adrian The Cal Bear said:
Vogelsong > Kershaw


Still true to this day in the rings column
It isn't just true in the "rings" column. It is true in the "quality of post-season performance" column.

The OP in this 7+ year old thread came in 2012 when Vogelsong was a 34 year old journeyman about to turn 35, in the midst of a run of 16 consecutive quality starts. Nice. But Kershaw was following up his 2011 Cy Young season with a second place Cy Young season, to be followed by Cy Young seasons the next two years and an MVP in 2014. In the snapshot moment of the 2012 regular season, it was fair to compare how Vogelsong and Kershaw were doing, even if one was a true journeyman and the other a future Hall of Famer who are not comparable, regular season career-wise.

But post-season performance? The journeyman wins. In 2012, the 35 year old Vogelsong had one of the best post-seasons of the division series era, with a 3-0 record and a 1.09 ERA in 24 2/3 innings. And the one game he didn't win was the most crucial performance, allowing only 1 run in 5 innings against the Reds in game 3 of the 2012 NLDS in a game the Giants had trouble scoring in, needing an unearned run in extra innings to win 2-1 and avoid a sweep. If Vogey has a Kershaw-like post-season performance in that game, we're not talking about 3 World Series wins in 5 years. If Vogey has a Kershaw-like performance in either of his 2 games against the Cardinals in the NLCS, we're probably not talking about 3 World Series rings in 5 years. And who knows what happens if Vogelsong doesn't pitch 5 2/3 shut out innings in the World Series, instead of winning 2-0 to go up 3-0 in the series, maybe the Giants lose, and it is a different series.

Vogey had only one good start out of 3 in the 2014 post-season, but by then he was really a washed up 37 year old who pitched reasonably well in the clinching game against the "superior" Nationals in the NLDS, didn't pitch so well in the NLCS and had decent stuff but had what Bochy called "buzzard's luck" in game 4 of the World Series, but the team was able to win all three games. His team was 7-0 in games he started over those two post-seasons.

Kershaw has had the occasional good post-season game, but he can only dream of having a string of 4 starts like Vogey did in 2012. Kershaw, a 4.43 career post-season ERA. Vogelsong, a 2.92 career post-season ERA. Vogelsong > Kershaw is still true to this day in the post-season performance column, rings or no.

Kershaw appears to be a good guy. Giants fans certainly should appreciate that he was very classy in his whole handling of Bumgarner's at bat on the last day of the season. If he was on any team other than the Dodgers, I'd root for him.

The good news for Kershaw is that Vogelsong was 35 when he had his outstanding post-season. Kershaw is only 31, there's still time. When it comes to post-season, he just needs to somehow find his inner 2012 Vogelsong.
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Cal8285
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In reply to sycasey • 10:16a, 10/10/19
sycasey said:
BeggarEd said:
Kershaw needs to leave L.A. His legacy is forever tainted there and I don't think he'll ever be able to overcome the stigma.

Also - like the 1993 Giants who won 103 games and didn't even make the playoffs (thanks to no wildcard and the 104 win Braves who were in the NL "West" at the time), the 2019 Dodgers and their 106 wins will go down as merely a statistical oddity and a minor footnote in baseball history.

Don't forget the 2001 Mariners.
But except for hardcore baseball fans, everyone has forgotten the 2001 Mariners.
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GBear4Life
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10:16a, 10/10/19
Yeah Kershaw has regressed...from the unequivocal best pitcher in baseball to simply #1 starter and top 15 pitcher.

His strikeout rate is down but still elite (still over 1 per inning), his WHIP is down but still elite (1.043).

He's had his best season already, we know that.
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GBear4Life
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10:18a, 10/10/19
It's nice to see the Harper-less Nationals move on to the NLCS as the Phillies watch at home.

(It also sends the message most of us know already which is that veteran "stars" are overvalued)
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sketchy9
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10:54a, 10/10/19
Watching Robert's mismanage his bullpen makes me appreciate even more what Bochy was able to do in those three playoff runs. Yes, the players executed and that makes Bochy look like a brilliant tactician, but he also knew when to fold 'em, so to speak. It was rare to see a Giants pitcher self-destruct because Bochy would usually pull him before it got too bad. Yes, there were exceptions, but by and large he made the right moves at the right time.

IMO the problem with the Dodgers begins with Dave Roberts. He seems like a really nice guy but he just doesn't have the insight into his bullpen that the great postseason managers have. If/when he gets fired I'm sure he'll have a nice career managing a perennial also-ran like the Padres, but he's the wrong guy to win the Series with.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal8285 • 11:05a, 10/10/19
Cal8285 said:
sycasey said:
BeggarEd said:
Kershaw needs to leave L.A. His legacy is forever tainted there and I don't think he'll ever be able to overcome the stigma.

Also - like the 1993 Giants who won 103 games and didn't even make the playoffs (thanks to no wildcard and the 104 win Braves who were in the NL "West" at the time), the 2019 Dodgers and their 106 wins will go down as merely a statistical oddity and a minor footnote in baseball history.

Don't forget the 2001 Mariners.
But except for hardcore baseball fans, everyone has forgotten the 2001 Mariners.
Precisely.
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sycasey
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In reply to sketchy9 • 11:06a, 10/10/19
sketchy9 said:
Watching Robert's mismanage his bullpen makes me appreciate even more what Bochy was able to do in those three playoff runs. Yes, the players executed and that makes Bochy look like a brilliant tactician, but he also knew when to fold 'em, so to speak. It was rare to see a Giants pitcher self-destruct because Bochy would usually pull him before it got too bad. Yes, there were exceptions, but by and large he made the right moves at the right time.
The only exception for Bochy was the 2016 playoffs against the Cubs, but honestly the Giants bullpen was so bad top-to-bottom that year that there wasn't much he could do. And also the Cubs were clearly the better team.
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Cal8285
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In reply to sycasey • 11:30a, 10/10/19
sycasey said:
sketchy9 said:
Watching Robert's mismanage his bullpen makes me appreciate even more what Bochy was able to do in those three playoff runs. Yes, the players executed and that makes Bochy look like a brilliant tactician, but he also knew when to fold 'em, so to speak. It was rare to see a Giants pitcher self-destruct because Bochy would usually pull him before it got too bad. Yes, there were exceptions, but by and large he made the right moves at the right time.
The only exception for Bochy was the 2016 playoffs against the Cubs, but honestly the Giants bullpen was so bad top-to-bottom that year that there wasn't much he could do. And also the Cubs were clearly the better team.
Bochy was great when things were pretty settled in the bullpen and he knew who he could count on in what situations. And in the post-season, he could add pieces very well, like appropriately using a starter in the bullpen, especially when he was going to need a lot of innings out of relievers. For instance, Lincecum in 2012, Bumgarner in 2010 NLCS game 6 and 2014 WS game 7. The only time a starter in relief didn't quite work out was Lincecum in 2010 game 6 NLCS, but then Bochy got a 5 out Wilson save thanks to a line drive double play in the 8th.

When things got shaken up in the pen, however, it usually took Bochy some time to settle into the mix that worked. When Casilla started to totally suck in 2016, Bochy hadn't figured out yet how to deal with is pen by the time the NLCS rolled around. It took him a little time this year to settle everything, and by July he had the best pen in the league, and then he had big pieces traded away and too many remaining pieces injured, and it took until the season was pretty much done before he started looking like a genius again with how he was working his new pieces.

But yes, Bochy's brilliance with his bullpen was a HUGE part of winning those 3 World Series.
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