Mr. May is back.

sycasey said:

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Mr. May is back.

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Lolll beat me to it.

BonsallBear will disappear again until next Spring.

Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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There's always next year!

Let's not jinx it now. There is still time for a comeback.

sycasey said:

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Let's not jinx it now. There is still time for a comeback.

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Yes, I will laugh at Kershaw imploding again, but even if Atlanta holds on, they need one more. Dodgers are a tough out.

bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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Though given how the bullpen performed it may not have mattered tonight.

GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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I have been critical of Roberts for a long time. He doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff. You're right! Kershaw has a weak back and he gave a good account of himself for five innings. A strong manager takes the ball from him and says thanks but I'm turning it over to the bull pen. He didn't do Kershaw any favors and more importantly he took the Dodgers out of the game.

GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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Exactly. Roberts must shoulder a significant portion of the blame. He knows Kershaw's playoff history and he should have noticed that Kershaw did not have his best stuff tonight. You don't send him back out to the mound in the 6th but, if you do, you pull him after one hitter if that hitter reaches. Roberts simply does not have his finger on the pulse when it comes to managing Kershaw, at the very least.

I'm really surprised in an era dominated by analytics that LA's front office isn't dictating the situations where Roberts should make pitching changes. It's not like he has Bochy's feel for a pitching staff. I just don't get it.

PS-I'm not really complaining about it, though.

Playoff Kershaw is not a HoF pitcher.

They should just leave him off the postseason roster. They probably would have won a title by now if they had instead of inserting him into high leverage situations.

Also, I mentioned at the time that the Betts trade would not make them better. It hasn't. Their problem is lack of pitching, not lack of hitting.

They can still come back and win the series, but this is not a team built for postseason success.

They got cheap with Ryu and Greinke. Better to have one of those guys and Verdugo than Betts.

Don't get me wrong, Betts can completely change the fortune of a team but he wasn't what the Dodgers need to get them over the hump.

And, yes, put Roberts in a class with Doc Rivers and Dell Harris as coaches who do so little with so much talent.

All the talent that Roberts has had to work with and nothing important to show for it.
He needs to go it they don't win it all.
What was the plan with their most dominant pitcher, Dustin May?

dimitrig said:

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They should just leave him off the postseason roster.

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No, they should not. That is hyperbole.

chazzed said:

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dimitrig said:

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They should just leave him off the postseason roster.

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No, they should not. That is hyperbole.

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Well, I agree, because he is their 2nd best starter at the moment but that's not saying much.

He is best relegated to the back of the rotation as a spot starter or to do mopup duty.

Dodgers would have won a title already, maybe more, but for Kershaw and Jansen's playoff performances.

dimitrig said:

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Dodgers would have won a title already, maybe more, but for Kershaw and Jansen's playoff performances.

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Don't forget Pedro Baez!

chazzed said:

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GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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Exactly. Roberts must shoulder a significant portion of the blame. He knows Kershaw's playoff history and he should have noticed that Kershaw did not have his best stuff tonight. You don't send him back out to the mound in the 6th but, if you do, you pull him after one hitter if that hitter reaches. Roberts simply does not have his finger on the pulse when it comes to managing Kershaw, at the very least.

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The interesting problem was that the first hitter who reached did so on a high infield chopper. If the ball is hit a little better, then it is an out. So you can't say that Kershaw was showing any bad signs with respect to Acuna.

Do you pull him after one batter because that batter hit the ball poorly but got on? Of course, then you have a runner on as Kershaw has to face Freeman and Ozuna for the third time, so maybe. But at that point should Roberts really have more faith in Graterol or anybody else who could come in from his bullpen than Kershaw? Even if Kershaw didn't have his best stuff to that point? If Graterol comes in 2 or 3 batters earlier and gets shelled, Roberts is crucified for taking out his future HOF pitcher, who had only given up one run in 5 innings, for some stiff in his pen (even if the future HOF pitcher has never come close to having as good a post-season as Ryan Vogelsong did in 2012).

After the Acuna chopper, I probably let lefty Kershaw face lefty Freeman, even knowing that Kershaw has a history of trying to pitch in the post-season with both hands around his own neck. When Freeman gets the double, I think Roberts should have pulled Kershaw and let someone else face Ozuna, but I can't say that his handling of Kershaw last night was crazy bad.

Well, I would have protected him and not let him face Acuna at all. But, saying he got on with chopper ignores an important fact: Acuna should have walked on 5 pitches. The 3-1 was well below the zone and the umpire called it a strike. In fact I just went and rewatched the at bat.

Pitch 1: a curveball spiked about 7 feet in front of the plate

Pitch 2: an 87 (!) mph fastball below the zone that Acuna waved at. Barnes wanted it low and in, but Kershaw left it on the outside half.

Pitch 3: an uncompetitive 87 mph fastball in the dirt.

Pitch 4: an uncompetitive 88 mph fastball in the dirt.

Pitch 5: a 92 mph fastball that was below the zone but called a strike. Should have been ball 4.

Pitch 6: an 88 mph fastball, belt high on the inner half that Acuna somehow missed.

Edit: ESPN calls pitch 2 and 3 a change up. Given that his fastball was topping out at 91-92, that is surprising. It's also calling pitch 4 a slider. If true, it was not sliding much and supports my argument.

My point is he was not looking great. Then on the play, a guy who was scratched from a big start just two days ago with back spasms, dives as tumbles to the ground. He should have been yanked. Letting him face Ozuna was pure insanity.

I think the delay for the Acuna injury may have affected Kershaw.

As much as managers will ***** about ball-strike calls that don't go their way, I never see managers pull pitchers because they would have walked a guy except for the pitch out of the zone that got called a strike. Perhaps more managers should, and while it is hard for managers to see inside/outside clearly from the dugout, Roberts should have been able to see the 3-1 pitch was low. And while I HATE a leadoff walk there, too many of the analytics guys say it is OK to nibble rather than risk a HR.

Roberts may not have felt very good about Kershaw at that point. Roberts can't really admit, "Yeah, I didn't feel good about Clayton, but I felt even worse about Graterol, and Graterol was my best option in the pen at that point," even if that was his thinking. If that was his thinking, was it insanity to leave Kershaw in to face Ozuna? Or was it insane to think that way?

It was kind of funny that Ozuna seemed to be sitting on the curve on the 3-1 pitch, and got a fastball he probably could have handled pretty well. He sat on the curve again 3-2, and Kershaw gave it to him (in spite of the fact that the one curve he threw earlier in the at bat was pretty lousy, missing high). It wasn't a horrible 3-2 curve, but not good enough for a guy looking curve. In hindsight, Kershaw probably would have been better off throwing another fastball in the same spot as the 3-1 pitch.

Maybe I'm OK with Roberts leaving Kershaw in because I enjoy watching Kershaw choke in the playoffs. So maybe you're right. I was happy Roberts left Kershaw in, and if I'm happy to have Kershaw stay in, then it probably IS insanity to leave him in.

It wasn't just that inning. Kershaw was getting behind in counts and putting guys on base all night. A couple of DPs really helped him out. He was struggling. It was only a matter of time until the Braves broke through.

That said, the BP really choked, too, so I am not sure taking him out would have led to a win.

Hasn't Roberts been burned in past playoffs by letting Kershaw go too far??? Here he got a guy who just had back spasms through some innings. Maybe here you let Dustin May start an inning fresh. Let him try to finish things off and get the series evened up. Deal with game 5 later. This was too important. May has been dominant. Pull out the stops to win 2 in a row and tie the series.
This was bad managing again by Roberts!!

Cal8285 said:

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chazzed said:

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GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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Exactly. Roberts must shoulder a significant portion of the blame. He knows Kershaw's playoff history and he should have noticed that Kershaw did not have his best stuff tonight. You don't send him back out to the mound in the 6th but, if you do, you pull him after one hitter if that hitter reaches. Roberts simply does not have his finger on the pulse when it comes to managing Kershaw, at the very least.

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The interesting problem was that the first hitter who reached did so on a high infield chopper. If the ball is hit a little better, then it is an out. So you can't say that Kershaw was showing any bad signs with respect to Acuna.

Do you pull him after one batter because that batter hit the ball poorly but got on? Of course, then you have a runner on as Kershaw has to face Freeman and Ozuna for the third time, so maybe. But at that point should Roberts really have more faith in Graterol or anybody else who could come in from his bullpen than Kershaw? Even if Kershaw didn't have his best stuff to that point? If Graterol comes in 2 or 3 batters earlier and gets shelled, Roberts is crucified for taking out his future HOF pitcher, who had only given up one run in 5 innings, for some stiff in his pen (even if the future HOF pitcher has never come close to having as good a post-season as Ryan Vogelsong did in 2012).

After the Acuna chopper, I probably let lefty Kershaw face lefty Freeman, even knowing that Kershaw has a history of trying to pitch in the post-season with both hands around his own neck. When Freeman gets the double, I think Roberts should have pulled Kershaw and let someone else face Ozuna, but I can't say that his handling of Kershaw last night was crazy bad.

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As GMP noted, I definitely pull him after Acuna reaches. Acuna should have walked, and Freeman is one of the best hitters in the game. When you add all of that to Kershaw's postseason history, it is an easy.decision for me. Roberts did a similar thing with Kershaw when they faced the Nationals last season: Kershaw came on in relief, got a huge out at a key moment, and then Roberts trotted him back out there the next inning and let him give up TWO HRs in a row. Roberts could have given Kershaw a big postseason win, especially since the LA bullpen had been underused at that point. Personally, I don't even give him the option to go out there in the 6th frame yesterday.

chazzed said:

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Cal8285 said:

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chazzed said:

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GMP said:

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bonsallbear said:

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Sadly Kershaw needs to retire. Robert's needs to go as well

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Roberts, yes. But Kershaw retire? That's ridiculous.

If they had a manager who knows how to handle a pitcher who has a fragile postseason ego, then you yank Kershaw after two times through the lineup. He'd have left after five, giving up one solo shot, and feeling good for his next start.

Instead they let him get to the third time through, he goes single, double, they still leave him in, and then he gives up another double.

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Exactly. Roberts must shoulder a significant portion of the blame. He knows Kershaw's playoff history and he should have noticed that Kershaw did not have his best stuff tonight. You don't send him back out to the mound in the 6th but, if you do, you pull him after one hitter if that hitter reaches. Roberts simply does not have his finger on the pulse when it comes to managing Kershaw, at the very least.

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The interesting problem was that the first hitter who reached did so on a high infield chopper. If the ball is hit a little better, then it is an out. So you can't say that Kershaw was showing any bad signs with respect to Acuna.

Do you pull him after one batter because that batter hit the ball poorly but got on? Of course, then you have a runner on as Kershaw has to face Freeman and Ozuna for the third time, so maybe. But at that point should Roberts really have more faith in Graterol or anybody else who could come in from his bullpen than Kershaw? Even if Kershaw didn't have his best stuff to that point? If Graterol comes in 2 or 3 batters earlier and gets shelled, Roberts is crucified for taking out his future HOF pitcher, who had only given up one run in 5 innings, for some stiff in his pen (even if the future HOF pitcher has never come close to having as good a post-season as Ryan Vogelsong did in 2012).

After the Acuna chopper, I probably let lefty Kershaw face lefty Freeman, even knowing that Kershaw has a history of trying to pitch in the post-season with both hands around his own neck. When Freeman gets the double, I think Roberts should have pulled Kershaw and let someone else face Ozuna, but I can't say that his handling of Kershaw last night was crazy bad.

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As GMP noted, I definitely pull him after Acuna reaches. Acuna should have walked, and Freeman is one of the best hitters in the game. When you add all of that to Kershaw's postseason history, it is an easy.decision for me. Roberts did a similar thing with Kershaw when they faced the Nationals last season: Kershaw came on in relief, got a huge out at a key moment, and then Roberts trotted him back out there the next inning and let him give up TWO HRs in a row. Roberts could have given Kershaw a big postseason win, especially since the LA bullpen had been underused at that point. Personally, I don't even give him the option to go out there in the 6th frame yesterday.

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At some point, though, when you have a guy who has won the Cy Young a couple of times, you have to let him go pitch when he has pitched 80 pitches or thereabouts. I think it made perfect sense for him to start the 6th. That's not on Roberts. Kershaw is just not a good pitcher in the postseason. If you are claiming that Roberts should have no faith in him then I guess that's true but it speaks more to Kershaw than Roberts. Roberts' failing is not recognizing that Kershaw is a choke artist.

It's a sad situation, really. I keep fearing that Kershaw is going to do a Donnie Moore. I don't mean that in jest. I worry about his mental health. He looks so defeated after each of these important postseason losses. I hope he realizes that it's just a game and that without him the Dodgers wouldn't even be in position to compete in important games.

I disagree. The postseason is not just a continuation of the regular season. It's not a simple all-or-nothing proposition. The starting hurler giving up 1 run in 5 innings is very valuable. Roles can and often do change when the playoffs begin, and managers that make the right tweaks are worth their weight in gold.

As for speculating about Kershaw being a danger to himself, you're on your own in that armchair space.

It's gonna be a Game 7.

Gotta love it when both league championship series go seven games. Both the Astros and Dodgers have shown that they are tough to finish off.

I do not like this development.

So... should Roberts have taken Buehler out when he did?

Only 89 pitches and had given up two singles in the last two innings.

I would have let him at least start another inning with the #8 hitter up.

Or did that extra inning of bullpen work not really matter?

Good. Ass. Baseball.

Sigh. Never trust the Braves.

WHEW!!

Maybe,just maybe.