Purpleperson;842166248 said:

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I see you managed not to notice how at the exact same time he was saying that the camera was showing an NU player who had just come off being attended to by a trainer on the sideline.

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Be assured that while Fitzie screams about his "integrity", the nation, especially the B1G, is now aware of his injury antics. NU may have won the game but their reward is a new reputation as unethical wimps who feel the need to cheat.

Congratulations to NU and your indignant coach. :rollinglaugh:

The good news? This WILL be addressed. Who will demand it is the networks. The hurry up makes for good and entertaining football. The injuries create real problems for the network in scheduling - as evidenced by a game shown into the Chicago market going to 1:30 a.m. in the morning. It may not be this year (and that is OK, the NW game knocked us out of the BCS national championship running :p) but probably by next year there is a rule that tries to seek a happy medium - probably sit out till change of possession as well as a minimum 15 seconds on the reset to address Saban's pandering (which is about 99% ridiculousness but does have a BIT of truth in that guys that are winded ARE probably a bit more at risk of getting hurt)

Let's do something about it, Cal fans. Find a billboard space around Evanston and design something that reads, "northwestern wildcramps, first downs injure our players." Who's in? I'll gladly put some money for this.

FiatSlug;842166199 said:

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It's real simple: only offensive linemen and anyone else on the LOS are required to stay set until the snap. At no time during last night's game was Cal's OL doing anything that resembled prairie dogging. Oh, sure, there were false starts. But all of the prairie dogging was done by the backs.

Any back (including a slot receiver or a flanker not lined up on the LOS) can go in motion at any time before the snap provided that only one man is in motion at a time. They are not required to stay set (that is, in a three-point stance) until the snap.

What Phantomfan suggests will result in the defense being called for either (1) being offsides by contact or (2) encroachment.

Come on, guys. It's all in the rule book. And it should be common football sense.

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I was too drunk and preoccupied to be watching how Cal did it Saturday night; my comments are based on watching Oregon do it the last three or four years, and my recollection is that linemen were getting set and then popping up on a regular basis. If the Cal coaching staff is making sure that their linemen don't do it, then great; they're not pushing the boundary of the rules the way Kelly's Duck teams did (and Helfrich's teams probably will continue to do).

Purpleperson;842166248 said:

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I see you managed not to notice how at the exact same time he was saying that the camera was showing an NU player who had just come off being attended to by a trainer on the sideline.

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Hey Barney: your user name is misspelled. It should read damagecontrol
Now go back to the cheaters forum where you came from.

SonOfCalVa;842166303 said:

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Be assured that while Fitzie screams about his "integrity", the nation, especially the B1G, is now aware of his injury antics. NU may have won the game but their reward is a new reputation as unethical wimps who feel the need to cheat.

Congratulations to NU and your indignant coach. :rollinglaugh:

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:bravo:bravo:bravo

[FONT="Arial Black"]PERFECT![/FONT]

B.A. Bearacus;842166263 said:

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OK-I finally got it! spells winded for those that might have been confused. Very good stuff as usual from you.

SonOfCalVa;842166008 said:

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Yes, there is. If an apparent "injury" occurs, a ref can monitor the on-field "treatment" of the player since player health is so important AND to monitor the possibility of faking as it impacts play. Impacting play and enforcement of the rules IS the responsibility of the refs. They can damn well track who is "injured" and why.

If dehydration is the problem, and dehydration can be serious, prevent the player from reentering the game unless the doctor okays his return. Protecting players is now a big deal, rightly so, but so is refereeing the game to ensure the quality of the game is protected.

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Each team gets assigned a game day doctor (not affiliated with the team) who works with the refs. I'm pretty sure the NCAA has the money to pay for this. Any player that is hurt enough to warrant game stoppage has to be examined by the doctor and cleared by the doctor before reentering the game. If there is a queue of players to be seen by the doctor, too bad. There can be a battery of required tests and procedures each injured player has to go through before the doctor gives him the ok to reenter.

purpleperson, we can empathize with what you're feeling today - we went through this 3 years ago. Here are the 5 stages of Shame:

1. Denial: all our players were legitimately injured.

2. Rationalization: well, maybe not all of them, but it's a legitimate tactic to counter a gimmicky offense. It's up to the refs to stop it.

3. Humiliation: when you become a punch line for talk show hosts, and videos of your players' bad acting goes viral.

4. "Facing" the facts. Throw one of your assistant coaches under the bus.

5. Own it and move on.

Welcome to Stage 1, and good luck on your journey.

82gradDLSdad;842166410 said:

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Each team gets assigned a game day doctor (not affiliated with the team) who works with the refs. I'm pretty sure the NCAA has the money to pay for this. Any player that is hurt enough to warrant game stoppage has to be examined by the doctor and cleared by the doctor before reentering the game. If there is a queue of players to be seen by the doctor, too bad. There can be a battery of required tests and procedures each injured player has to go through before the doctor gives him the ok to reenter.

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I thought of this too. Then I recounted my dealings with doctors. You are assuming that doctors can't be influenced by the political and economic climate that governs their jobs. Nice try though.

I wish someone with the technological know-how would put together a youtube compilation of the supposed "injuries." Maybe we can catch one of their players red-handed, just like Oregon did when Tipoti faked the injury. Indisputable video evidence like that ended up getting Tosh suspended.

It would be great to include the Fitz quote in the video.

The Duke!;842166433 said:

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I wish someone with the technological know-how would put together a youtube compilation of the supposed "injuries." Maybe we can catch one of their players red-handed, just like Oregon did when Tipoti faked the injury. Indisputable video evidence like that ended up getting Tosh suspended.

It would be great to include the Fitz quote in the video.

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I'm still confused about what happened that caused Lupoi's suspension. Didn't it take a confession from our own AD and wasn't the suspension self imposed by JT?

I don't know how you get "indisputable" evidence on video. Tipoti's fake at Cal became a video that went viral causing embarrassment for Cal. I don't think the league (NCAA) had anything to do with it.

I'm not convinced that this is a problem yet that requires rule changes, but it definitely could become one. If it does, my suggestion would be this:

First of all, I think we should be able to be balanced on this given we've been on both sides. I think you do need to allow a team to substitute winded players. And you need to allow teams the strategical advantage of playing fast paced.

I'd add two 15 second time outs a half - only enough time to substitute. That should maintain most of the strategic advantage to the fast paced offense while giving the defense a couple fatigue substitutions. The defense could no longer complain that they "have to" fake injuries.

With that concession to the defense comes a trade off. If a player stops play on the field, the team has a choice. The player is out for the rest of the half or they take one of their now 5 timeouts in the half. If they are out of timeouts, player sits.

heartofthebear;842166440 said:

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I'm still confused about what happened that caused Lupoi's suspension. Didn't it take a confession from our own AD and wasn't the suspension self imposed by JT?

I don't know how you get "indisputable" evidence on video. Tipoti's fake at Cal became a video that went viral causing embarrassment for Cal. I don't think the league (NCAA) had anything to do with it.

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Tedford didn't acknowledge any wrongdoing until the video went viral. But he was pushed into a corner due to the negative publicity. So he suspended Tosh.

OaktownBear;842166447 said:

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I'm not convinced that this is a problem yet that requires rule changes, but it definitely could become one. If it does, my suggestion would be this:

First of all, I think we should be able to be balanced on this given we've been on both sides. I think you do need to allow a team to substitute winded players. And you need to allow teams the strategical advantage of playing fast paced.

I'd add two 15 second time outs a half - only enough time to substitute. That should maintain most of the strategic advantage to the fast paced offense while giving the defense a couple fatigue substitutions. The defense could no longer complain that they "have to" fake injuries.

With that concession to the defense comes a trade off. If a player stops play on the field, the team has a choice. The player is out for the rest of the half or they take one of their now 5 timeouts in the half. If they are out of timeouts, player sits.

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oh good. Be sure to let Pac12 refs and NCAA know about your rule changes. :p

Meanwhile ... ah, cramp in my little toe, can't stand up ... stop the clock and help me.
Time outs are so unnecessary anymore. :axe

OaktownBear;842166447 said:

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I'm not convinced that this is a problem yet that requires rule changes, but it definitely could become one. If it does, my suggestion would be this:

First of all, I think we should be able to be balanced on this given we've been on both sides. I think you do need to allow a team to substitute winded players. And you need to allow teams the strategical advantage of playing fast paced.

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I refer you to the NCAA 2013-2014 Football Rules and Interpretations.

Specifically, Rule 3-5-1 and Rule 3-5-2 (on pages FR-55 and FR-56) covering the Substitution Procedures and Legal Substitutions. Rule 3-5-2-e already covers the specific instance under discussion.

Article 3 covers the situation of more than 11 players on the field; this is tangentially relevant to the discussion.

CalBearsWinNC;842165508 said:

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And we still cannot complain. If we were innocent, we could talk but we're not.

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The administration that we cheated under is gone. Sonny had nothing to do with that.

Plus, we didn't condone our own cheating.

The Duke!;842166450 said:

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Tedford didn't acknowledge any wrongdoing until the video went viral. But he was pushed into a corner due to the negative publicity. So he suspended Tosh.

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Someone should post a petition on petition.org calling for an official censure by the Big Whatever, the NCAA or the University for doing something that is clearly spelled out by the NCAA as unethical and not in the spirit of the game.

FiatSlug;842166467 said:

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I refer you to the NCAA 2013-2014 Football Rules and Interpretations.

Specifically, Rule 3-5-1 and Rule 3-5-2 (on pages FR-55 and FR-56) covering the Substitution Procedures and Legal Substitutions. Rule 3-5-2-e already covers the specific instance under discussion.

Article 3 covers the situation of more than 11 players on the field; this is tangentially relevant to the discussion.

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ah, where the heck is my rulebook ...
Can you post or provide links, please.
All I can find is the rulebook For Sale by NCAA

I like the proposition that each "injured" player needs to be cleared to play by an M.D. before returning to the field.

The NCAA and the AMA could then come up with a mandatory checklist for medical evaluations: pulse, BP, blood oxygen, reaction time (for concussions), etc. It'll guarantee that when a player comes out, it'll be about 5-10 minutes before they can get back on. And if multiple players "fake it", the doctor will still need to go thru the evaluation with all of them, if they want to get back in the game.

There would also have to be some restriction on the number of team doctors. A team could only have one M.D. on staff who's authorized to provide medical clearance. An alternate doctor can be available, but only one M.D. at a time can provide medical clearances. That would prevent 'football factory' schools & teams from having 5 doctors on the sidelines to do evaluations in parallel.

I like the idea that Cal sends its own doc out whenever the opponents appear to be faking. Ask probing questions such as "where does it hurt?' or "do you know what quarter this is?" Sonny should ask the refs to stand over the player to listen to the responses. I also like a manditory 5 minute sit out.

freshfunk;842165433 said:

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If they are that injured that they can't get up, the should go out for more time (4 plays, 1 series, 2 mins, etc). It's too easy to go out for 1 play and then come back in.

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I'm not making excuses for some of NU's laughable acting (they all seem to roll their head around like ah yeah, got that kink out, that's all better). But that is part of the point the defenses are making. They don't have the opportunity to run off the field. If they tweak an ankle, or hyperextend a finger, or just have a pad out of kilter, they would normally run off the field. Happens all the time without the fans knowing about it.

Think if you are a coach on the other side. Not one that plays games. I can tell you I am not telling my players to fake injuries. But I am telling them that if the other team is going no huddle so that I can't substitute, if they need assistance, they need to go to the ground. I don't think it is the other coach's responsibility to make things easy. You will definitely see guys going to the ground with injuries that would normally not be minor enough that they would have just subbed out.

Frankly, we should complain post game through proper channels if a team is using gamesmanship, and I'd hope the NCAA or the leagues would punish obvious behavior. But overall, I agree with Huard on this one. The tactic comes at a cost to the defense. Stop screaming and make them pay for it. I think the complaining on our side, especially during the game, is counterproductive. Winners say "fine, I'll beat you anyway".

SonOfCalVa;842166498 said:

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ah, where the heck is my rulebook ...
Can you post or provide links, please.
All I can find is the rulebook For Sale by NCAA

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My earlier post has a link. See here:

Quote:

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I refer you to the NCAA 2013-2014 Football Rules and Interpretations.

Specifically, Rule 3-5-1 and Rule 3-5-2 (on pages FR-55 and FR-56) covering the Substitution Procedures and Legal Substitutions. Rule 3-5-2-e already covers the specific instance under discussion.

Article 3 covers the situation of more than 11 players on the field; this is tangentially relevant to the discussion.

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Download the PDF version (it's free!) and open it up.

If you don't have Adobe Acrobat Reader, get it from http://www.adobe.com

FiatSlug;842166467 said:

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I refer you to the NCAA 2013-2014 Football Rules and Interpretations.

Specifically, Rule 3-5-1 and Rule 3-5-2 (on pages FR-55 and FR-56) covering the Substitution Procedures and Legal Substitutions. Rule 3-5-2-e already covers the specific instance under discussion.

Article 3 covers the situation of more than 11 players on the field; this is tangentially relevant to the discussion.

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No offense at all Fiat, but if you really want anyone to know the point you are making, I'd either quote the rule or describe what it says. I have a feeling that most people, like me, are just not that into this topic to download and read through the NCAA rules for this. If that doesn't bother you, fine. Just a suggestion. I'd actually like to know what you are saying, but I'm not willing to work that hard for it. Probably my own loss.

OaktownBear;842166546 said:

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I'm not making excuses for some of NU's laughable acting (they all seem to roll their head around like ah yeah, got that kink out, that's all better). But that is part of the point the defenses are making. They don't have the opportunity to run off the field. If they tweak an ankle, or hyperextend a finger, or just have a pad out of kilter, they would normally run off the field. Happens all the time without the fans knowing about it.

Think if you are a coach on the other side. Not one that plays games. I can tell you I am not telling my players to fake injuries. But I am telling them that if the other team is going no huddle so that I can't substitute, if they need assistance, they need to go to the ground. I don't think it is the other coach's responsibility to make things easy. You will definitely see guys going to the ground with injuries that would normally not be minor enough that they would have just subbed out.

Frankly, we should complain post game through proper channels if a team is using gamesmanship, and I'd hope the NCAA or the leagues would punish obvious behavior. But overall, I agree with Huard on this one. The tactic comes at a cost to the defense. Stop screaming and make them pay for it. I think the complaining on our side, especially during the game, is counterproductive. Winners say "fine, I'll beat you




cal fans need to make a big deal of it, just like oregon fans did. its the only way that you get teams to think twice about it. our team isnt complaining just our fans. frankly we're just backing our team up.

Purpleperson;842166248 said:

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I see you managed not to notice how at the exact same time he was saying that the camera was showing an NU player who had just come off being attended to by a trainer on the sideline.

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Was it #92. That is the player, that the announcer talked about.
He was back a couple of plays later. Looking very healthy.

gobears725;842166594 said:

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cal fans need to make a big deal of it, just like oregon fans did. its the only way that you get teams to think twice about it. our team isnt complaining just our fans. frankly we're just backing our team up.

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Disagree, actually. Cal's sideline was making a big deal out of it. Just think that is the wrong message to send.

B.A. Bearacus;842166233 said:

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Bump on these!
What is NU's fan site so we can proliferate the disrespect their way?