The Franklin System's Achilles Heel

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berk18
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beelzebear;842525856 said:

So if it's about 1-on-1 man, wouldn't superior OL talent, like at Texas AM, help greatly? They had those 3-4 first round OL go in two years.


Certainly, which is what's so confusing to me. If you have great talent, you can just run traditional protections. That's why the NFL does it. If you don't have talent you need a way to overcome that, but two years in I can't see how the vertical set has done that for us. Then again, I can't see how talent explains the success at LaTech which, we have to be honest, did come against at least a few solid defensive teams like TCU and Utah State, who may be mid-majors but are better than lots of P5 defenses.

Something else to consider is that because so few teams run the vertical set, there's just not as much innovation, which is bad for anything. More people = more ideas = more good ideas. It's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, could make some tweaks to technique and make it awesome. Maybe that's what the old OL coach at LaTech could do, but there's not a good book on the vertical set for a young coach, because nobody runs it at a higher level than us. If you're an up-and-comer and you want advice on the vertical set who do you talk to? High school coaches? Tony Franklin? There just isn't the body of knowledge out there.
bleedblue
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Everyone's getting too caught up in the "system". Knowing what you want to accomplish is the easy part, knowing how your going to do it is where technique comes into play. It's VERY difficult to getting the intimate knowledge of playing OL. It's a physics position. If you read my earlier post, you'll understand the difficulties of the Vertical set. And one last time, the Vertical set is ONLY used by Cal and WSU in the power 5 conferences!! This is because of TF and Leach.

It's supposed to negate a DL'ers power and speed, but in actuality, it does nothing but create other avenues for them. With 5 guys backpedaling, it's easy to get on different levels depending on who your trying to engage. This makes passing off DL games impossible. If the QB gets rid of the ball quickly, any technique used would be adequate, but in our system there's a possibility to go for the Endzone on every play. So the QB needs to hold the ball to let the routes develop and to let the receivers get down field.

@goingforroses
I did watch practice. The "short set" their talking about is nothing more than a quick Vertical pass set that will be used in certain situations. It won't do much for those 3 and long situations where Goff needs protection. Jones seems to be a good coach, but I get the sense that he does not believe in the Vertical set( he didn't teach it at ECU). The other guy from Concord not so much.

There's only so many ways you can do things in football. The TFS is not some kind of magical thing that people haven't figured out. In fact, it deals mostly with the decision making of the DB's that are trying to cover it. Changing the OL technique IMO wouldn't affect the offensive dynamics, but would get them past a 5-6 win season. It's that big of a deal!

And thank you Berk18 for the comments on my tech knowledge.
Big C
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Interesting thread. Assorted questions:

1. Is that true that WSU and Cal are the only ones using vertical set blocking? And what about high schools that use the TFS straight from TF? Are they taught to use it? Is it something so integral to the TFS that, without it, it is not realy the TFS?

2. What have SD and TF said about vertical set blocking in the past? (I seem to remember some things, but it seems like most all post-practice SD interviews have always been "who looked good out there today" and his more general interviews have been about recruiting, academics and Cal, in general. I've seen some great interviews with TF, but they are often not even about football.)

3. I should probably know this better than I do, but... How does Oregon's offense differ from ours (in terms of scheme) and, historically, how did it evolve and how does its evolution fit into the "spread timeline" especially in its different evolution from the TFS/Air Raid?
berk18
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Big C_Cal;842526002 said:


3. I should probably know this better than I do, but... How does Oregon's offense differ from ours (in terms of scheme) and, historically, how did it evolve and how does its evolution fit into the "spread timeline" especially in its different evolution from the TFS/Air Raid?


This is an interesting question, and I'm actually working on an e-book exactly about this (which is why the blog's been slow lately). In a nutshell, the Air Raid developed out of the BYU offense of Lavell Edwards' teams (think Norm Chow). Leach and Mumme visited BYU a ton in their early coaching days, and basically chopped up and simplified what they were doing there into the Air Raid passing game. Fans call any spread offense that throws a lot Air Raid, but in actuality schematically, the Air Raid is probably best defined by a specific set of passing plays. For the plays themselves, I've got some old posts [URL="http://calfootballstrategy.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-bear-raid-quick-passing-game.html"][U]here[/U][/URL] and [URL="http://calfootballstrategy.blogspot.com/2014/03/downfield-passing-game.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. Those plays aren't special or unique, and the individual plays will show up in plenty of systems. In the PAC-12, you'll see some overlap with Arizona and ASU, for example, but they also do other stuff that's different (ASU, in particular, has a fuller downfield passing game than Air Raid teams do but runs several of our concepts. Arizona runs a few of our concepts, but does some other stuff too). The Air Raid has just packaged a particular set of common plays as part of a broader offensive philosophy. This was all getting going in the 90's at schools like Kentucky and Valdosta St.

The big difference between our offense and Leach's is in the run game, which has a ripple effect. This is a simplification, but WSU only runs when the defense plays with a 5-man box, and it's usually packaged with a screen option. Their run game reflects this priority schematically, with everything being either an inside zone or a base play. This was implemented in the mid-2000's at Tech, and was actually a marked ADDITION to the historical Air Raid run game. Even now, the OL just fires out downhill at the defender that's covering them, and the RB finds the seam. Our offense, in contrast, incorporates a power play (with a variant run to the side of the RB's alignment to keep the defense honest), and we regularly run both inside and outside zone, with a pin-and-pull variant of the OZ for when a TE can get leverage. You'll see similar elements out of Utah, UCLA, Arizona, and ASU, for example. It doesn't matter what those play names are for now, but the point in listing the plays is to show that we have a real run-game playbook, which WSU really doesn't. That's just our base run offense, but we also have a variety of specialty plays from unbalanced formations, out of the bone, etc. Because we have a real run game, we were also one of the earlier offenses to get on the packaged play bandwagon, meaning that any time that we call a run play, there's a pass added onto it. In 2013 that pass was usually a screen, but in 2014 we started incorporating deeper routes. In the UCLA game, for example, we ran a packaged play with a go-route on the backside. UCLA showed all out blitz, which would've disrupted the run, so Goff just caught the ball and immediately cut it loose down the sidelines to the go route.

Oregon's a completely different thing, and the best way to describe it is that Chip Kelly's brilliant. After playing at New Hampshire, his coaching stops before Oregon were Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and New Hampshire, but somehow he got enough football experience and knowledge to develop an offense that he was recently able to bring to the NFL. Absolutely remarkable. If I remember the story correctly, Chip contacted Bellotti about the OC job at Oregon, Bellotti didn't even find him.

When you're talking about Oregon's offense broadly, you obviously have to start with the zone read, which is just a play. Rich Rodriguez (or rather, his QB at Tulane) invented it when they were "just trying to get a first down." They had no idea that it would take off. Basically, they wanted to run zone, which was (and is) all the rage in the NFL, but their RB kept getting tackled by the backside DE. The QB said, "Don't worry, I'll just read him," and it started to work a little bit. Now NFL teams run it, but before that it was obviously one of the things that Chip featured at Oregon. Oregon runs the zone read on steroids though, and I don't know that any team does it quite like them. For a long time already, they've been switching up who they read, so they can read a backside edge defender, but they can also read a NT or LB, which causes a number of schematic problems for the defense. I don't see a lot of other teams who go this far with it.

Oregon was also one of the earliest adopters of the packaged plays that I was talking about above, but Chip incorporated way more options than most teams in the package. So, there could be a RB run, a QB run, a screen, or a pop-pass to a TE in the seam, for example. UCLA and ASU, are the closest to Oregon in this particular regard. I need to look more at their actual, straight-up passing game, but my impression is that it's more complicated than, say, Arizona's or ours, including some pro-style stuff with route conversions based on coverage and all that. It's just a really, really good offense that takes a little bit from everyone while also innovating, and it's a lot more complicated than people think. Philosophically it's a lot like the old Wing-T in its sequencing, but it's obviously jazzed up for the 2000's to capitalize on recent trends.
MisterNoodle
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berk18;842526036 said:

This is an interesting question, and I'm actually working on an e-book exactly about this (which is why the blog's been slow lately). In a nutshell, the Air Raid developed out of the BYU offense of Lavell Edwards' teams (think Norm Chow). Leach and Mumme visited BYU a ton in their early coaching days, and basically chopped up and simplified what they were doing there into the Air Raid passing game. Fans call any spread offense that throws a lot Air Raid, but in actuality schematically, the Air Raid is probably best defined by a specific set of passing plays. For the plays themselves, I've got some old posts [URL="http://calfootballstrategy.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-bear-raid-quick-passing-game.html"][U]here[/U][/URL] and [URL="http://calfootballstrategy.blogspot.com/2014/03/downfield-passing-game.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. Those plays aren't special or unique, and the individual plays will show up in plenty of systems. In the PAC-12, you'll see some overlap with Arizona and ASU, for example, but they also do other stuff that's different (ASU, in particular, has a fuller downfield passing game than Air Raid teams do but runs several of our concepts. Arizona runs a few of our concepts, but does some other stuff too). The Air Raid has just packaged a particular set of common plays as part of a broader offensive philosophy. This was all getting going in the 90's at schools like Kentucky and Valdosta St.

The big difference between our offense and Leach's is in the run game, which has a ripple effect. This is a simplification, but WSU only runs when the defense plays with a 5-man box, and it's usually packaged with a screen option. Their run game reflects this priority schematically, with everything being either an inside zone or a base play. This was implemented in the mid-2000's at Tech, and was actually a marked ADDITION to the historical Air Raid run game. Even now, the OL just fires out downhill at the defender that's covering them, and the RB finds the seam. Our offense, in contrast, incorporates a power play (with a variant run to the side of the RB's alignment to keep the defense honest), and we regularly run both inside and outside zone, with a pin-and-pull variant of the OZ for when a TE can get leverage. You'll see similar elements out of Utah, UCLA, Arizona, and ASU, for example. It doesn't matter what those play names are for now, but the point in listing the plays is to show that we have a real run-game playbook, which WSU really doesn't. That's just our base run offense, but we also have a variety of specialty plays from unbalanced formations, out of the bone, etc. Because we have a real run game, we were also one of the earlier offenses to get on the packaged play bandwagon, meaning that any time that we call a run play, there's a pass added onto it. In 2013 that pass was usually a screen, but in 2014 we started incorporating deeper routes. In the UCLA game, for example, we ran a packaged play with a go-route on the backside. UCLA showed all out blitz, which would've disrupted the run, so Goff just caught the ball and immediately cut it loose down the sidelines to the go route.

Oregon's a completely different thing, and the best way to describe it is that Chip Kelly's brilliant. After playing at New Hampshire, his coaching stops before Oregon were Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and New Hampshire, but somehow he got enough football experience and knowledge to develop an offense that he was recently able to bring to the NFL. Absolutely remarkable. If I remember the story correctly, Chip contacted Bellotti about the OC job at Oregon, Bellotti didn't even find him.

When you're talking about Oregon's offense broadly, you obviously have to start with the zone read, which is just a play. Rich Rodriguez (or rather, his QB at Tulane) invented it when they were "just trying to get a first down." They had no idea that it would take off. Basically, they wanted to run zone, which was (and is) all the rage in the NFL, but their RB kept getting tackled by the backside DE. The QB said, "Don't worry, I'll just read him," and it started to work a little bit. Now NFL teams run it, but before that it was obviously one of the things that Chip featured at Oregon. Oregon runs the zone read on steroids though, and I don't know that any team does it quite like them. For a long time already, they've been switching up who they read, so they can read a backside edge defender, but they can also read a NT or LB, which causes a number of schematic problems for the defense. I don't see a lot of other teams who go this far with it.

Oregon was also one of the earliest adopters of the packaged plays that I was talking about above, but Chip incorporated way more options than most teams in the package. So, there could be a RB run, a QB run, a screen, or a pop-pass to a TE in the seam, for example. UCLA and ASU, are the closest to Oregon in this particular regard. I need to look more at their actual, straight-up passing game, but my impression is that it's a lot more complicated than, say, Arizona's or ours. They do all kinds of pro-style stuff with route conversions based on coverage and all that. It's just a really, really good offense that takes a little bit from everyone while also innovating, and it's a lot more complicated than people think. Philosophically it's a lot like the old Wing-T in its sequencing, but it's obviously jazzed up for the 2000's to capitalize on recent trends.


I read somewhere that Chip Kelley learned the zone read option from Rich Rodriguez when RR was the OC at Clemson. He invited himself to Clemson to pick RR's brain, or vice versa, as the coaching fraternity does for each other occasionally. I believe the late Northwestern OC we hired away some years ago, Mike __ (whose last name is escaping me), along with the NW head coach at the time, Randy Barnett, also learned the read option from Rich Rod. As I'm sure many, many other coaches have since then.
KoreAmBear
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MisterNoodle;842526058 said:

I read somewhere that Chip Kelley learned the zone read option from Rich Rodriguez when RR was the OC at Clemson. He invited himself to Clemson to pick RR's brain, or vice versa, as the coaching fraternity does for each other occasionally. I believe the late Northwestern OC we hired away some years ago, Mike __ (whose last name is escaping me), along with the NW head coach at the time, Randy Barnett, also learned the read option from Rich Rod. As I'm sure many, many other coaches have since then.


Mike Dunbar. We had a pretty good 2006 season with Dunbar at OC. He shouldn't have been let go.
MisterNoodle
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KoreAmBear;842526062 said:

Mike Dunbar. We had a pretty good 2006 season with Dunbar at OC. He shouldn't have been let go.


Thank you. I went to go look him up and I am completely wrong! It was Randy Walker (the next regime at NW) who went to Clemson to learn from RR. So never mind!

But yeah, a Desean Jackson toenail, a Lavelle Hawkins blade-of-grass stumble or a Dante Hughes phantom PI from the Rose Bowl in 2006. That has to qualify as a good season for us in the last 60 years.
bleedblue
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gobears725;842525939 said:

still think the main thing to fix is the defense. freddy tagaloa is not the only athletic tackle we had and i still dont think he had great feet. he could have stuck it out, competed, got his job back, he chose to go. bottomline, if you are good enough to play, the scheme will only effect it a little. he wasnt good enough


The offense causes many of the defenses problems. When it's working well, we only have a 5-6 play series. When it's not working, it's 3 and out. Either way your defense stays on the field a lot! I think we averages 85 plays a game. Most D-coordinators hate coaching with this type of offense. We DO NOT have the capability to ground and pound with this offense. The NW and Arizona games showed that. It's not about how many yards you rush for in a game, it's about being able to run the ball effectively when you want to... when everyone in the stadium knows your going to...... when the defense knows which play your running!

Ball control is a very important part of the game. Being in a two point stance most of the time works against us when we have to put a hand down. Our guys are not conditioned or effective at digging out D-liners. That's why we keep getting stuffed on goal line situations where the field is short and the spread isn't a benefit.

Freddie has all the tools to be an All-American. MOST tackles would look horrible trying to do the vertical set against the type of rushers this league has. Especially one on one in a pass happy system.
oski003
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bleedblue;842526124 said:

The offense causes many of the defenses problems. When it's working well, we only have a 5-6 play series. When it's not working, it's 3 and out. Either way your defense stays on the field a lot! I think we averages 85 plays a game. Most D-coordinators hate coaching with this type of offense. We DO NOT have the capability to ground and pound with this offense. The NW and Arizona games showed that. It's not about how many yards you rush for in a game, it's about being able to run the ball effectively when you want to... when everyone in the stadium knows your going to...... when the defense knows which play your running!

Ball control is a very important part of the game. Being in a two point stance most of the time works against us when we have to put a hand down. Our guys are not conditioned or effective at digging out D-liners. That's why we keep getting stuffed on goal line situations where the field is short and the spread isn't a benefit.

Freddie has all the tools to be an All-American. MOST tackles would look horrible trying to do the vertical set against the type of rushers this league has. Especially one on one in a pass happy system.


It sounds like Freddie is in a better place for his skill set. Good luck to him.
killa22
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berk18;842526036 said:

Because we have a real run game, we were also one of the earlier offenses to get on the packaged play bandwagon, meaning that any time that we call a run play, there's a pass added onto it. In 2013 that pass was usually a screen, but in 2014 we started incorporating deeper routes. In the UCLA game, for example, we ran a packaged play with a go-route on the backside. UCLA showed all out blitz, which would've disrupted the run, so Goff just caught the ball and immediately cut it loose down the sidelines to the go route.

Oregon was also one of the earliest adopters of the packaged plays that I was talking about above, but Chip incorporated way more options than most teams in the package. So, there could be a RB run, a QB run, a screen, or a pop-pass to a TE in the seam, for example. UCLA and ASU, are the closest to Oregon in this particular regard. I need to look more at their actual, straight-up passing game, but my impression is that it's more complicated than, say, Arizona's or ours, including some pro-style stuff with route conversions based on coverage and all that. It's just a really, really good offense that takes a little bit from everyone while also innovating, and it's a lot more complicated than people think. Philosophically it's a lot like the old Wing-T in its sequencing, but it's obviously jazzed up for the 2000's to capitalize on recent trends.


When you look @ what Tony has dialed up from a schematic standpoint -- what originally stood out most to me from his time @ LATECH and his first season at Cal was his combination of zone run schemes (Inside Zone / Stretch / Pin-Pull Zone) with the solid / jailbreak / and crack type screens, or on free access throws on the backside of Trips/Quads. This worked tremendously well when he was able to get an isolation with his best X/Z Receiver (in 2013 this was mostly either Treggs/Harper/Lawler) on a corner. Treggs played admirably against Roby @ OSU in 2013.

Last year in the 2nd Year of the Bear Raid, I was seriously impressed by the combination of gap run schemes (Power/Counter) w/ packaged vertical routes (Streaks/4-Verts) out of Trips/Quads and quick leverage throws to H/Y out of the slot in 2 x 2 -- the scheme allowed us to attack the box w/ a Power Concept, as well as retain a 6 man protection in a Pass Situation w/ the added "Play-Action" type effect of freezing Safeties -- the Packaged Power-Run / Verticals package accounted for the majority of our Vertical pass game. --- This does require a lot of attention to detail from Goff, as well as the WR's in the vertical game -- the last play of the UCLA game is one in particular, the Bruins showed press outside, we had what looked to be a run called in paired w/ Streaks -- for that pre-snap look Lawler would take the top off on a vertical route, but the corner bailed early and had Lawler stacked so it just wasn't there. Goff threw it up based on pre-snap press coverage on the outside, and the result was a pick (albeit a very questionable one). UCLA showed that same look all game and we had beat them previously w/ Davis/Harper/Lawler beforehand -- we actually were basically just throwing away from Ishmael Adams in press situations.

As you truly start looking closer @ the mix of plays called in a game over the course of 2014 -- we weren't in true drop-back pass scenarios all that much, I want to say the majority of the time we were operating off of some sort of run-fake or run-read mesh in the pass game.

I do see where the conversation in this thread is going w/ regard to the vertical set -- but the fact of the matter is that its a tool that is part of the Bear-Raid, but is not an essential piece to the operation of the entire scheme as a whole. I do believe the quick drop employed in practice should clear things up w/ the quick game -- Furd gave us some trouble in the Big Game last year when we vertically set on Y-Stick or Scat/Snag -- and Leonard Williams in particular gave us some trouble in the first half of the SC game -- but when Tony went to Zone-Gap Packaged plays in the 2nd half we had a lot less issues -- save for accounting for 5+ on the LOS (Cravens had a few free shots @ the QB due to an overload issue w/ our Power-Play Action Protection -- they were not really covering down on all eligible receivers so we had a free access throw available).

W/ Mariota, Oregon was able to significantly increase the schematic complexity/sophistication of their pass game -- I don't believe I have ever seen a team process and attack defensive structure as proficiently or quickly ever. They will make you pay w/ their screen game if you don't cover down or play numbers appropriately, which softens the box for their already strong run game, and then they will also play action off those same screens to go deep. They run sound route concepts, and were even able to adopt a range of Run & Shoot elements (reading coverage on the fly) to their downfield game to really take advantage of coverage -- they mostly did this w/ their Switch Package -- take a look @ their Michigan State Game last year to see it in action (Chris Brown had a nice write up on the Run & Shoot and the Switch Concept back in 2007 when Hawaii made its sugar bowl run). Oregon basically shredded Michigan States vaunted Press Quarters w/ a Route concept straight out of the 80's. I find it interesting how only now people have begun to attribute route-conversions in the pass game as a "pro-style element" -- when for years that very practice (Run & Shoot) was called a gimmick.

The backshoulder/curl element to Lawler that you spoke of earlier is another concept taken straight from the Run & Shoot as well -- which was just a conversion for the Choice Route against inside-shade/head up solo man coverage.

Anyway, where Tony can probably afford to add some complexity is in incorporating route-conversion reads to the Bear Raid Pass Game -- would be interesting to add a little Run & Shoot to the Bear Raid. Likewise, if we ever found ourselves in another situation where a corner is stacking our outside WRs on verts, we could throw a curl/backshoulder conversion instead of holding the ball & throwing in to traffic. Leach / Holgorsen / and Sonny all started to run Verticals w/ more sight adjustments in the later years at Texas Tech.

The closer you start looking @ it -- the concepts that form the Bear Raid actually comprise diverse elements both in the run / pass game -- Tony does a lot of things, and he does a lot of things differently than Leach -- the true beauty of it is in how he combines the run/pass and operates w/ Tempo.

This year, I would pay close attention to how the RBs are utilized in the pass game -- both to account for pressure, and how they are involved in protections. I would expect our RBs to catch a ton of balls this year. Given how involved the QB and RB are in our Packaged concepts its actually brilliant that Tony is coaching both the QBs and RBs -- having the two of them in the same film room will pay dividends on the field.

Tony is a damn fine offensive mind & I expect our offense to shine this yr.
going4roses
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interesting discussion
Chapman_is_Gone
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Dbearson;842525238 said:

Your so wrong


Whose wrong? My wrong?
BearlyCareAnymore
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KoreAmBear;842526062 said:

Mike Dunbar. We had a pretty good 2006 season with Dunbar at OC. He shouldn't have been let go.


Have to disagree. Pete gets grief for forgetting about Marshawn for a play. Dumbar forgot about Marshawn for a season. When the offense was unveiled at Tennessee, I couldn't believe the running game we were running. I don't mind running the offense out of shotgun, but I do mind running primarily out of shotgun with no fullback when you have the best power back in college football on your side.

Cal didn't miss the Rosebowl by a toe or a blade of grass. They missed it by a horrible personnel decision by Tedford. Basically, if Longshore doesn't go down against Sac State, Ayoob never starts. If Ayoob doesn't suck so hard, we stay competitive with SC and win 10 games in 2005. If we do that, Tedford doesn't have a temper tantrum, wrongly blame and fire Cortez, and rip up a massively successful play book. He never hires Dunbar, never introduces the spread elements and creates Frankenplaybookenstein, and continues to run his offense which was perfect for the personnel we had in 2006. We don't get humiliated by UT while running a sissy offense, and when half the team decides not to show up for the UA game, we have a power game to fall back on and we grind out a victory and a Rose Bowl.

I'm not saying Dunbar was a bad coach, though nothing in his record showed him to be a great one. But it was the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. I spent the rest of the Tedford era wondering when we were going to get the 2002-2005 play book back. The one that Tedford was a master at. Unfortunately, we never saw it again.
Ncsf
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Well, you are just wrong. I guarantee you will see more power running by Lasco. Oh by the way, Lasco got over 1,000 yards last year. Re, Tags, he sucked for Tedford too.
bleedblue;842526124 said:

The offense causes many of the defenses problems. When it's working well, we only have a 5-6 play series. When it's not working, it's 3 and out. Either way your defense stays on the field a lot! I think we averages 85 plays a game. Most D-coordinators hate coaching with this type of offense. We DO NOT have the capability to ground and pound with this offense. The NW and Arizona games showed that. It's not about how many yards you rush for in a game, it's about being able to run the ball effectively when you want to... when everyone in the stadium knows your going to...... when the defense knows which play your running!

Ball control is a very important part of the game. Being in a two point stance most of the time works against us when we have to put a hand down. Our guys are not conditioned or effective at digging out D-liners. That's why we keep getting stuffed on goal line situations where the field is short and the spread isn't a benefit.

Freddie has all the tools to be an All-American. MOST tackles would look horrible trying to do the vertical set against the type of rushers this league has. Especially one on one in a pass happy system.
berk18
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killa22;842526134 said:


W/ Mariota, Oregon was able to significantly increase the schematic complexity/sophistication of their pass game -- I don't believe I have ever seen a team process and attack defensive structure as proficiently or quickly ever. They will make you pay w/ their screen game if you don't cover down or play numbers appropriately, which softens the box for their already strong run game, and then they will also play action off those same screens to go deep. They run sound route concepts, and were even able to adopt a range of Run & Shoot elements (reading coverage on the fly) to their downfield game to really take advantage of coverage -- they mostly did this w/ their Switch Package -- take a look @ their Michigan State Game last year to see it in action (Chris Brown had a nice write up on the Run & Shoot and the Switch Concept back in 2007 when Hawaii made its sugar bowl run). Oregon basically shredded Michigan States vaunted Press Quarters w/ a Route concept straight out of the 80's. I find it interesting how only now people have begun to attribute route-conversions in the pass game as a "pro-style element" -- when for years that very practice (Run & Shoot) was called a gimmick.


Now we're talking. Nice post. A nasty packaged play with an inside zone read and mirrored switch from a stacked 2x2 look won Arizona their game against Utah. Utah was playing a lot of man to take away UA's packaged plays, and was doing a good job defending the run with a 6-man box, but when UA went to stacked WR's Utah tried to press the on-the-line WR and played the second DB off and inside. UA stacked up and ran switch. The press created a pile that sprung the wheel three or four times, once for huge yards and every other time for a 1st down. That was one of the most interesting things I've seen Zona do in the passing game.

killa22;842526134 said:

Anyway, where Tony can probably afford to add some complexity is in incorporating route-conversion reads to the Bear Raid Pass Game -- would be interesting to add a little Run & Shoot to the Bear Raid. Likewise, if we ever found ourselves in another situation where a corner is stacking our outside WRs on verts, we could throw a curl/backshoulder conversion instead of holding the ball & throwing in to traffic. Leach / Holgorsen / and Sonny all started to run Verticals w/ more sight adjustments in the later years at Texas Tech.



This is what's confused me about the inside WR's. It looks like they're bending it inside against split safeties like the Tech teams did, but I can't remember us throwing it that much. The inside WR's, especially H, don't even look like they expect the ball. I know one exception was in the CU game in 2014, but we only threw that because there was no safety in the middle of the field and Treggs' DB was playing shallow and outside, and even with that great look it took us several times to pull the trigger. The sideline throw is the default almost every time (unless there's playaction), even when we should be able to get some good looks down the seam, and it's killing Treggs' productivity from the H. I'd say that the playaction version of 4-verts from trips isn't just a nice wrinkle, but is basically the only way for us to get the ball to an inside WR on that play (the first play of the UCLA game running it from an unbalanced look was genius, though).
NVBear78
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GivemTheAxe;842525179 said:

How is your conclusion any different from what Phil Steele and Sonny himself has said. To beat the best teams with good defenses you must have a good OLine.

I would add a corollary: if a team using the TFS has an OLine that is comparable in quality to the other team's DLine, the team using the TFS will very probably win.


The other side of the coin is that using the TFS we scored 39 points a game last year with a sucky OLine. Goff deserves tremendous credit for a fantastic year under great duress.
gobears725
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bleedblue;842526124 said:

The offense causes many of the defenses problems. When it's working well, we only have a 5-6 play series. When it's not working, it's 3 and out. Either way your defense stays on the field a lot! I think we averages 85 plays a game. Most D-coordinators hate coaching with this type of offense. We DO NOT have the capability to ground and pound with this offense. The NW and Arizona games showed that. It's not about how many yards you rush for in a game, it's about being able to run the ball effectively when you want to... when everyone in the stadium knows your going to...... when the defense knows which play your running!

Ball control is a very important part of the game. Being in a two point stance most of the time works against us when we have to put a hand down. Our guys are not conditioned or effective at digging out D-liners. That's why we keep getting stuffed on goal line situations where the field is short and the spread isn't a benefit.

Freddie has all the tools to be an All-American. MOST tackles would look horrible trying to do the vertical set against the type of rushers this league has. Especially one on one in a pass happy system.


we were 27th in red zone offense, 23rd in 3rd down percentage. we do control the ball, its just unconventional.

i feel like your like charles barkley saying you cant win playing small ball in basketball. we play unconventional football. we'll see if they can pull it off, but air raid has worked in other places, i see no reason why schematically it cant work here too.

just like how the west coast offense used to use the short passing game for ball control, that's what ive seen this offense do as well.
berk18
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gobears725;842526221 said:

we were 27th in red zone offense, 23rd in 3rd down percentage. we do control the ball, its just unconventional.



Good info. This made me look up some extra stats, and they're interesting. We were #9 in the country in red zone TD%. Against FBS teams with a winning record, we jump up to #7 nationally, scoring TD's in 76.92% of our red zone trips. That's second best in the conference to USC, who was at 80%. Against ranked opponents, we were #1 in the country, scoring TD's in, get this, 100% of our trips to the red zone (UA, UCLA, USC, Oregon). Our problems against those teams (mostly USC and UCLA) were in getting to the red zone in the first place.

Our 3rd down conversion % was #3 in the conference (Oregon: 49.95%, USC: 46.63%, Cal: 46.07%). We do slide to #5 in the conference against winning teams in this category, and even farther against ranked teams (#65 nationally, #10 in the conference, though I don't know if this was short yardage or us getting into 3rd and long too much), which is where we really need improvement. We were also #1 in the conference in 4th down percentage (#14 nationally), with 67.86%. In that stat, we were #3 in the conference against ranked teams (UCLA and Washington beat us, but they only had 4 and 5 attempts to our 13). We're #2 in the conference on fourth down against winning teams, with UCLA barely beating us, although here again we had almost 3x as many attempts.

Our running game got first downs 60% of the time on 3rd and less than 3. Oregon was 66%, USC was 51%, Stanford was 62.5%. In 2013 we were 40% in this category. If we see a ~5% improvement here in 2015, we'll be a really, really good offense. A really interesting stat is that our run game converted 67% of its 4th down attempts, and we attempted the third most 4th downs in the conference, behind WSU and CU, so we've actually made up a little bit of our failed 3rd down percentage by being especially willing to go for it on 4th. If we see a 5% improvement in 3rd down conversions overall (we were 33.64% in 2013, and 46% in 2014) and continue to go for it and succeed on 4th down, we'll be a dominant offense. We'll get to the red zone a lot more, and as I mentioned above, our TD% there is already awesome, even (especially?) against good teams.
Cal89
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I'll see if I can a post a made a few months back on this same topic (our 3rd and 4th down conversion rates). I recall being quite impressed. I surmised that we might be on the precipice of something special, just with some minor improvements...

I honestly believe that our completing of passes at around 59% the last portion of season is very much holding us back. A few more connections a game can make all the difference. SD and TF know this more than anyone, I sense...
SonOfCalVa
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Cal89;842526382 said:

I'll see if I can a post a made a few months back on this same topic (our 3rd and 4th down conversion rates). I recall being quite impressed. I surmised that we might be on the precipice of something special, just with some minor improvements...

I honestly believe that our completing of passes at around 59% the last portion of season is very much holding us back. A few more connections a game can make all the difference. SD and TF know this more than anyone, I sense...


As our running game continues to get better, Ds can't focus on the pass, which ought to increase the pass%.
Sure, on 3rd down, they can concentrate on Anderson (or whomever) but then Lasco, Enwere, et.al. run or catch out of the backfield.
Sonny has been clear that Coprich has been running well, but it's his receiving that's holding him back.
We have more weapons than just the pass.
socaltownie
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Can't wade through 6 pages. But here is what I want to watch this year. In my mind one of the features of this offense is trying to create mismatches where you get a WR on a safety. Part of the reasons to run this fast is to make it challenges of subing. Part of the reasons to get balance out of your trap running game is that it keeps defenses honest and keeps their safeties from cheating.

But in my mind (and the Washington game sorta underscored this with a Hatters going Hat way), there are NFL level safeties in the Pac 12 that CAN cover college level WR one-on-one. Indeed, I might argue that it is a feature not a bug of our conference. Smart people than I would be able to opine about HS and youth football on the west coast as to why this is.

So I am going to watch how we do against elite level safeties. If we can pass on them, test passed. If not, then I do wonder whether the TFS can work when you start getting 3-4-5 guys in a secondary who are not coverted Quarterbacks but rather kids that are slotted to be drafted at CB or Safety in the first 2 rounds.
calumnus
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OaktownBear;842526161 said:

Have to disagree. Pete gets grief for forgetting about Marshawn for a play. Dumbar forgot about Marshawn for a season. When the offense was unveiled at Tennessee, I couldn't believe the running game we were running. I don't mind running the offense out of shotgun, but I do mind running primarily out of shotgun with no fullback when you have the best power back in college football on your side.

Cal didn't miss the Rosebowl by a toe or a blade of grass. They missed it by a horrible personnel decision by Tedford. Basically, if Longshore doesn't go down against Sac State, Ayoob never starts. If Ayoob doesn't suck so hard, we stay competitive with SC and win 10 games in 2005. If we do that, Tedford doesn't have a temper tantrum, wrongly blame and fire Cortez, and rip up a massively successful play book. He never hires Dunbar, never introduces the spread elements and creates Frankenplaybookenstein, and continues to run his offense which was perfect for the personnel we had in 2006. We don't get humiliated by UT while running a sissy offense, and when half the team decides not to show up for the UA game, we have a power game to fall back on and we grind out a victory and a Rose Bowl.

I'm not saying Dunbar was a bad coach, though nothing in his record showed him to be a great one. But it was the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. I spent the rest of the Tedford era wondering when we were going to get the 2002-2005 play book back. The one that Tedford was a master at. Unfortunately, we never saw it again.


This. The offense should have been power running with Lynch behind a future NFL line, TEs and fullbacks mixed in with play-action and Longshore throwing deep to Desean Jackson et al.
SonOfCalVa
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calumnus;842526439 said:

This. The offense should have been power running with Lynch behind a future NFL line, TEs and fullbacks mixed in with play-action and Longshore throwing deep to Desean Jackson et al.


:p but replacing Longshore was a FIVE STAR JC transfer, Ayoob, replacing a recently departed JC transfer QB who left Cal too soon, who reminded people of a while ago other JC transfer QB who left the world too soon ...
calumnus
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I noticed that this year Ray Hudson is listed as a "TE" which we did not have on the roster the last 2 years--Rodgers was listed as an (inside) "WR". I wonder if that signals any changes in the offense/the way Hudson will be used? If I were to change the offense it would be to make use of the versatility of TEs--receiving or blocking the edge for a run or extra pass protection when throwing long--makes it easier to create mismatches that you can exploit.
calumnus
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SonOfCalVa;842526445 said:

:p but replacing Longshore was a FIVE STAR JC transfer, Ayoob, replacing a recently departed JC transfer QB who left Cal too soon, who reminded people of a while ago other JC transfer QB who left the world too soon ...


I was talking about 2006. We almost won 10 games with Ayoob at QB in 2005 because of the power run game with Lynch. With Ayoob obviously struggling with mechanics (which Tedford had tried to change) I would have gone with Levy or burned Kyle Reed's redshirt--again the strategy is power running mixed in with play action deep throws to Desean Jackson (as Longshore and Riley showed in 2007, all you need is arm strength and DJ will go get it and make the play).
Cal89
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SonOfCalVa;842526397 said:

As our running game continues to get better, Ds can't focus on the pass, which ought to increase the pass%.
Sure, on 3rd down, they can concentrate on Anderson (or whomever) but then Lasco, Enwere, et.al. run or catch out of the backfield.
Sonny has been clear that Coprich has been running well, but it's his receiving that's holding him back.
We have more weapons than just the pass.


I'm as optimistic for our running game as I am passing actually. TF as the RBs coach, says a lot.

A more effective ground game, better than last year's 4.1 on the ground, would seemingly help the passing game alright. That said, a really good QB and receivers, working within a successful framework, will get good results regardless. Southern Cal had just 3.9 a carry on the ground last year, 3rd worst in the Pac-12. Kessler, a very impressive 70% completion rate, TD/INT nearly 8:1, 8.5 yards / attempt.

Our top four backs averaging over 4 a pop is more than enough to keep a defense honest. The Cougs on the other hand... don't even pretend. Two yards a carry on just 243 rushes the whole season.

We up our running game to 4.5, very realistic, would have placed us 4th in the conference in 2014, and complete passes at just 65% (SD and TF want near 70), we get 8+. Note, no mention of the D.
berk18
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calumnus;842526462 said:

I noticed that this year Ray Hudson is listed as a "TE" which we did not have on the roster the last 2 years--Rodgers was listed as an (inside) "WR". I wonder if that signals any changes in the offense/the way Hudson will be used? If I were to change the offense it would be to make use of the versatility of TEs--receiving or blocking the edge for a run or extra pass protection when throwing long--makes it easier to create mismatches that you can exploit.


You'll get at least part of your wish, haha. We actually started doing this a lot last year, at least the run game part, and if anything we'll do more next year. Sonny knows the benefits and how to do it, since he ran this offense with a true TE at Arizona.

In the passing game we'll probably keep using a RB instead of a TE in our 6-man protections, though we might do some TE blocking out of trips formations or on roll outs. RB's are more versatile in pass protection schemes in every offense, so this isn't too weird. Unless they're really lining up more like a FB, a TE can basically help double one DE (not even that useful if the defense moves their best rusher around), or slide out to take an edge blitzer. RB's, on the other hand, can insert into various spots in the protection (including on the edge) since they're in the backfield, and can do stuff like dual reading LB's (meaning, "watch both ILB's and block whichever one comes/the most dangerous man") and things like that.

In our pass concepts, it's also a lot easier to take a RB out of the route than the TE, whose usually going to be essential to the concept that we're running. For better or for worse, this offense is really set up to benefit the Y-receiver more than anyone else, which is why Stephen Anderson had such a good year and was so clutch on third down, but it also means that the passing offense changes significantly if you take him out of it. You could hypothetically still run the quick game with Y-blocking if you had X, H, and the RB run the concept, but (1) the quick game doesn't need extra blockers in most games, and (2) your TE is a better receiver than the RB, so why not leave the RB in instead? For any downfield concept the TE will be a better receiver than the RB, so you're probably better off using the back as your 6th man, with a TE only really being necessary if you want to go to a 7-man protection.
SonOfCalVa
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calumnus;842526473 said:

I was talking about 2006. We almost won 10 games with Ayoob at QB in 2005 because of the power run game with Lynch. With Ayoob obviously struggling with mechanics (which Tedford had tried to change) I would have gone with Levy or burned Kyle Reed's redshirt--again the strategy is power running mixed in with play action deep throws to Desean Jackson (as Longshore and Riley showed in 2007, all you need is arm strength and DJ will go get it and make the play).


agreed, but teddy hated Levy for some reason, but finally he had to play him ("enough is enough" said teddy vs $C and put in Levy and we won again).
SonOfCalVa
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berk18;842526514 said:

We actually started doing this a lot last year, at least the run game part. In the passing game we'll probably keep using a RB instead of a TE in our 6-man protections, though we might do some TE blocking out of trips formations or on roll outs. RB's are more versatile in pass protection schemes in every offense, so this isn't too weird. Unless they're really lining up more like a FB, a TE can basically help double one DE (not even that useful if the defense moves their DE's around), or slide out to take an edge blitzer. RB's, on the other hand, can insert into various spots in the protection (including on the edge) since they're in the backfield, and can do stuff like dual reading LB's (meaning, "watch both ILB's and block whichever one comes/the most dangerous man") and things like that.

In our pass concepts, it's also a lot easier to take a RB out of the route than the TE, whose usually going to be essential to the concept that we're running. For better or for worse, this offense is really set up to benefit the Y-receiver in a lot of ways, which is why Stephen Anderson had such a good year and was so clutch on third down, but it also means that the passing offense changes significantly if you take him out of it. You could hypothetically still run the quick game with Y-blocking if you had X, H, and the RB run the concept, but (1) the quick game doesn't need extra blockers in most games, and (2) your TE is a better receiver than the RB, so why not leave the RB in instead? For any downfield concept the TE will be better than the RB, so you're probably better off using the back as your 6th man, with a TE only really being a good idea if you want to go to a 7-man protection.


It'll be interesting when we see McMorris as our FB, used to play FB as well as DT, and he can block and catch. Maybe this year, or next.
KoreAmBear
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OaktownBear;842526161 said:

Have to disagree. Pete gets grief for forgetting about Marshawn for a play. Dumbar forgot about Marshawn for a season. When the offense was unveiled at Tennessee, I couldn't believe the running game we were running. I don't mind running the offense out of shotgun, but I do mind running primarily out of shotgun with no fullback when you have the best power back in college football on your side.

Cal didn't miss the Rosebowl by a toe or a blade of grass. They missed it by a horrible personnel decision by Tedford. Basically, if Longshore doesn't go down against Sac State, Ayoob never starts. If Ayoob doesn't suck so hard, we stay competitive with SC and win 10 games in 2005. If we do that, Tedford doesn't have a temper tantrum, wrongly blame and fire Cortez, and rip up a massively successful play book. He never hires Dunbar, never introduces the spread elements and creates Frankenplaybookenstein, and continues to run his offense which was perfect for the personnel we had in 2006. We don't get humiliated by UT while running a sissy offense, and when half the team decides not to show up for the UA game, we have a power game to fall back on and we grind out a victory and a Rose Bowl.

I'm not saying Dunbar was a bad coach, though nothing in his record showed him to be a great one. But it was the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. I spent the rest of the Tedford era wondering when we were going to get the 2002-2005 play book back. The one that Tedford was a master at. Unfortunately, we never saw it again.


Yes JT lost his way trying to open up his offense a little, and then he seemed confused about our identity esp. with the carousel of OCs since Cortez. Dunbar's offense was the wrong one for our personnel, but it was still one of the best seasons after 1991 and 2004. There were so many playmakers.
Cal89
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socaltownie;842526406 said:

Can't wade through 6 pages. But here is what I want to watch this year. In my mind one of the features of this offense is trying to create mismatches where you get a WR on a safety. Part of the reasons to run this fast is to make it challenges of subing. Part of the reasons to get balance out of your trap running game is that it keeps defenses honest and keeps their safeties from cheating.

But in my mind (and the Washington game sorta underscored this with a Hatters going Hat way), there are NFL level safeties in the Pac 12 that CAN cover college level WR one-on-one. Indeed, I might argue that it is a feature not a bug of our conference. Smart people than I would be able to opine about HS and youth football on the west coast as to why this is.

So I am going to watch how we do against elite level safeties. If we can pass on them, test passed. If not, then I do wonder whether the TFS can work when you start getting 3-4-5 guys in a secondary who are not coverted Quarterbacks but rather kids that are slotted to be drafted at CB or Safety in the first 2 rounds.


In the back of my mind too. Really good point, but we are in rah-rah mode this time of year, lol. I'm trying my best here too... It's August...

In this conference, with these offenses, defenses really need such guys back there.

I like to hope that the TFS perfection will reach a new level in year three to where the offense will be potent more often...

I think we'd all be open to a new way of playing ball, including the TFS. It needs to deliver results (wins) though. It was hailed as not needing elite talent, which is great, as we are generally not a destination spot for such athletes.

The Ducks have had a nice run, with their first major bowl in this stretch being the RB in the 2009 season, finishing as a top 10 team. Their 2005 to 2008 classes were solid to good, but certainlyt not top 10: 2005 - 2008, average stars = 30th, 41st, 17th and 15th. The last three years (2010-2014), the Ducks classes average about 21st in the nation. They are well in the top 10 nationally of course...

Our classes certainly don't average in the low 20's, but pretty respectable in the 30's as I recall, again average stars. The Arizona schools are in the high 40's and 50's. As we know, they have been averaging 9-10 wins a season over the last few years. Despite incoming talent ranked near the middle of FBS, the teams composed of those players are also, like the Ducks, "over-achieving" in a sense with those teams being ranked in the 20's and 30's... Utah is likely another good example of this outperformance, or delta between player talent and team results. Oregon State for a decade or so is a very good example of doing more with less. Eleven bowls over 14 season (Erickson and Riley), 8+ wins 8 times, yet recruiting classes at or near the bottom of the conference, bottom half of FBS... Erickson and Riley were great hires by OSU. OSU's previous bowl was in 1965, a 30+ year drought. Curious what Anderson does there, and even Riley at Nebraska... I'd bet that the Anderson hire proves yet again to be a good one for Beavs.

The point here of course is that we have sufficient talent to play well and win plenty of games. If not this year, I will have seen enough... Recruiting a Goff-like talent is hard to replicate, and will be only be more challenging with yet another subpar season. The time is absolutely now.
Unit2Sucks
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KoreAmBear;842526527 said:

Yes JT lost his way trying to open up his offense a little, and then he seemed confused about our identity esp. with the carousel of OCs since Cortez. Dunbar's offense was the wrong one for our personnel, but it was still one of the best seasons after 1991 and 2004. There were so many playmakers.


I'm still mesmerized when I see highlights of Tedford's early teams. Just the way we broke the huddle, lined up and started our plays let you know we weren't messing around. Everything was so precise and crisp. We lost that starting in around 2005 and never recovered. I am sure that apparent precision/crispness was just a symptom of what was going on, but it is the symptom that is most readily apparent to me. The niners had the same look the first 2 year under Harbs, only to lose it in the same fashion as Tedford. The parallels are striking to me.
Dbearson
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I think you guys are wrong, all spreads are the same while all offenses under center are the same
BearsWiin
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OaktownBear;842526161 said:

Have to disagree. Pete gets grief for forgetting about Marshawn for a play. Dumbar forgot about Marshawn for a season. When the offense was unveiled at Tennessee, I couldn't believe the running game we were running. I don't mind running the offense out of shotgun, but I do mind running primarily out of shotgun with no fullback when you have the best power back in college football on your side.

Cal didn't miss the Rosebowl by a toe or a blade of grass. They missed it by a horrible personnel decision by Tedford. Basically, if Longshore doesn't go down against Sac State, Ayoob never starts. If Ayoob doesn't suck so hard, we stay competitive with SC and win 10 games in 2005. If we do that, Tedford doesn't have a temper tantrum, wrongly blame and fire Cortez, and rip up a massively successful play book. He never hires Dunbar, never introduces the spread elements and creates Frankenplaybookenstein, and continues to run his offense which was perfect for the personnel we had in 2006. We don't get humiliated by UT while running a sissy offense, and when half the team decides not to show up for the UA game, we have a power game to fall back on and we grind out a victory and a Rose Bowl.

I'm not saying Dunbar was a bad coach, though nothing in his record showed him to be a great one. But it was the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. I spent the rest of the Tedford era wondering when we were going to get the 2002-2005 play book back. The one that Tedford was a master at. Unfortunately, we never saw it again.


In Tedford's defense (nm), Bellotti had gone spreadish in the offseason before 2005, and Tedford may have felt the impulse to experiment with the playbook because his mentor was doing it. And Cortez may have left after 2005 anyway, having never received the recognition he may have deserved because everybody was besotted with Tedford-love. I also recall (perhaps incorrectly) you arguing at some point in the last several years that we tried the Dunbar TedSpread for Tennessee, and we rapidly moved away from it in the following weeks because it became clear that we didn't have the personnel to run it effectively. My own impression was that even by 2006 the offensive line was already in decline, the peak being 2005. I can't remember who left between those two years, but I recall feeling that we lost some real fire on the line after 2005.

So I guess what I'm saying it that while I like your story, I'm not sure I buy into it.
BearlyCareAnymore
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BearsWiin;842526592 said:

In Tedford's defense (nm), Bellotti had gone spreadish in the offseason before 2005, and Tedford may have felt the impulse to experiment with the playbook because his mentor was doing it. And Cortez may have left after 2005 anyway, having never received the recognition he may have deserved because everybody was besotted with Tedford-love. I also recall (perhaps incorrectly) you arguing at some point in the last several years that we tried the Dunbar TedSpread for Tennessee, and we rapidly moved away from it in the following weeks because it became clear that we didn't have the personnel to run it effectively. My own impression was that even by 2006 the offensive line was already in decline, the peak being 2005. I can't remember who left between those two years, but I recall feeling that we lost some real fire on the line after 2005.

So I guess what I'm saying it that while I like your story, I'm not sure I buy into it.


No, we did not move away from the TedSpread after Tennessee. What we did do was revert as much as you can in a few weeks to our previous offense for the bowl game against Texas A&M. That fact and Dunbar getting pushed out made me think we were going to dump all the Dunbar playbook the next year, but we retained a lot. You may be confusing me with someone else or you may be thinking of my hope when Tedford made Coach M. OC and brought back a lot of the Ol' gang on offense that he was going to bring back the old offense, but my hope proved incorrect. The 2006 offense had a lot of success early with Longshore throwing long, but teams started forcing Longshore to throw underneath and that proved difficult for him and the offense stagnated. But the aTm game was clearly a different story with Cal rushing for 8 yards a carry with Lynch and Forsett running roughshod over them. Maybe things would have declined in later seasons, but if we had run the same offense all year that we ran against aTm, we would have gotten over the hump that year.

You are correct that the peak of the O-line was in 2005, but I wouldn't say we were in decline. We had almost the whole 2004 line back in 2005 and that was just an awesome line. Merz, Philip and O'Callaghan graduated in 2005 and all three were drafted. The 2006 line was not AS good, but we still had good lines in 2006 and 2007. Alex Mack took over the center position in 2006, for instance.
 
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