OT: Is it EVER going to end?

33,023 Views | 431 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by ShareBear
mikecohen
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calbear93;842613909 said:

You do realize that Neoconservatives started in the 60s when a faction of the Democratic party believed that the Democratic party wasn't doing enough to battle communism.


And the Republican Party started out as the radical abolitionists . . . And, during most of segregation, the inheritors of the supporters of slavery were solid for the Democrats, because of their hatred for the Republicans having defeated the South . . . And then, when Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Statutes, the Southerners (essentially the same people who fought for slavery, and then Segregation, turned on a dime and went over to Nixon and the Republicans, as their natural allies in holding back the tide of racial equality, and that continues. It really doesn't matter how the Neocons started. It really does matter that they weren't able to get a Democratic administration to go along with their insane policy; but were able to get the Bush-2 Administration to carry out the mass slaughter and societal disruption that resulted from the invasion of Iraq and the policies that followed it.
mikecohen
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calbear93;842613924 said:

I think most people accuse Obama not of being shy about using military might (he may have dropped more bombs than any other president) but of being arrogant (he hasn't developed humility even when he is often wrong and his timing is horrible) enough to dismiss actual threat that results in him not developing an effective, timely strategy but instead always reacting when it is too late and leading from behind. Again, look at how inspirational someone questionable like Hollande was and how pedantic Obama is. Reagan was not a good president but one thing he did do well was inspire.


When the Right here adopted essentially a blanket policy of demonization of Obama from the day he took office (without having to make much sense to gain millions of adherents, i.e., birtherism - could racial prejudice have had anything to do with this? Just asking), I don't know whether anyone could have "inspired" (although I, and probably a lot of others, personally find him very inspirational) those who bought into that demonization from the beginning, apparently without question.
Cal_Fan2
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MinotStateBeav;842614080 said:

I'm not blaming Reagan willy nilly. He cut off funding and you can't spin that. I was very young, but I remember there was a lot of backlash over that decision. Reagan essentially put the final nail in the coffin and completely destroyed it. I remember almost immediately the massive wave of homelessness that swept across San Francisco because of it.


You simply need to read the article to know that there were thousands upon thousand of patients who were homeless by the time Reagan became Governor, and again, look who actually started this whole movement. It wasn't Reagan, and in fact, it wasn't the Republicans. By the way, I thought only Congress can cut off funding, not a President. Ok, not gonna waste anymore time on this one. Being from this realm of Psychology on the Behavioral side, I can say that in hindsight, Psychiatry even in those times was mental butchery of sorts. Hell, I think when science developed Thorazine and Haladol in the 50s, they thought they had discovered the new Penicillin of Psychiatry...little did they know. So blame Reagan if you want, but the problem was initiated long before he came along. If you can't place blame on the scientific, legal and philanthropic community that created the problem, then it is just ideological rabble rousing. It's like you let everyone out of jail for a no good or lousy reason and then get the blame for defunding the jails when the criminals are already running rampant. I don't get this train of thought. I'll repeat, Edmund Brown let out 15,000 patients and Reagan and Moonbean followed suit. You could not commit people anymore at a whim so many of the homeless wouldn't be helped regardless once they were out. If you worked or studied in that area, you'd know it is a challenge to get mental patients to voluntarily commit themselves....let alone take meds because many refuse and you can't force them.
MinotStateBeav
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Cal_Fan2;842614097 said:

You simply need to read the article to know that there were thousands upon thousand of patients who were homeless by the time Reagan became Governor, and again, look who actually started this whole movement. It wasn't Reagan, and in fact, it wasn't the Republicans. By the way, I thought only Congress can cut off funding, not a President. Ok, not gonna waste anymore time on this one. Being from this realm of Psychology on the Behavioral side, I can say that in hindsight, Psychiatry even in those times was mental butchery of sorts. Hell, I think when science developed Thorazine and Haladol in the 50s, they thought they had discovered the new Penicillin of Psychiatry...little did they know. So blame Reagan if you want, but the problem was initiated long before he came along. If you can't place blame on the scientific, legal and philanthropic community that created the problem, then it is just ideological rabble rousing. It's like you let everyone out of jail for a no good or lousy reason and then get the blame for defunding the jails when the criminals are already running rampant. I don't get this train of thought. I'll repeat, Edmund Brown let out 15,000 patients and Reagan and Moonbean followed suit. You could not commit people anymore at a whim so many of the homeless wouldn't be helped regardless once they were out. If you worked or studied in that area, you'd know it is a challenge to get mental patients to voluntarily commit themselves....let alone take meds because many refuse and you can't force them.


You don't have to work or study to know the challenge of committing patients now..I lived thru it with a family member. I'm quite familiar of the inner workings of the mental health field.
GB54
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Vandalus;842614065 said:

This stood out to me from your post. ISIS is contained within the framework that he was discussing them; i.e. they are no longer expanding their territorial control. They are at a net even for recruitment (new recruits are roughly the same number of ISIS casualties). So they are trending even with respect to military numbers and they are losing territory. Their finances are also being depleted with the coalitions increased bombing of their oil infrastructure.

It bears repeating - it is expected when a terrorist organization is feeling the pressure, they will lash out and attempt lavish attacks in order to re-establish their "control" or perception of strength. The more proverbial ground they lose, the more motivation they will have for expanding their sphere of terror, as it is central to their recruitment strategy. Accordingly, attacks (or at the least, attempted attacks) in the west will in all likelihood become more frequent before ISIS is destroyed.

One last thing, in my opinion the media's infatuation with how complex the Paris attack was is really missing the point. The most difficult part of implementing that attack was getting the bombs made and getting in the AK-47's and ammo in country. The suicide vests were probably the most sophisticated portion of the attack, but you can get instructions on how to make those bombs via the internet with easily obtainable ingredients. After that it's a matter of deciding your (soft) target locations, getting the rental cars, and synchronizing their watches to commence the attacks at the same time. The fact that it does not take much sophistication is what makes their style of attack so difficult to stop.


Paris and San Bernardino were relatively trivial-a few dozen dead. Syria is not trivial. Over 200,000 dead!. The moral outrage of this is staggering-a few people in Paris die and its all hashtags and scented candles; 200,000 muslims are gassed, slaughtered, enslaved and homeless and its a shrug of the shoulders..

This is the most cataclysmic event in recent history, not a local conflict anymore but now a global one. Hundreds of thousands of refugees that will change the course of Europe for decades. A war now extended by ISIS to the heart of Europe, to Afghanistan, to Africa to the borders of Turkey and Jordan that threatens to plunge the whole area into conflict

Hollande realizes the threat. Putin realizes it, Hillary Clinton realizes it but when Obama blithely says things like "Assad must go" or "Isis is contained" (refuted by his own intelligence department*) in the absence of any strategy, he embarrasses his office and essentially says this will be a problem decided by his successor-which may be a good thing

*From the Daily Beast. "A new U.S. intelligence report on ISIS, commissioned by the White House, predicts that the self-proclaimed Islamic State will spread worldwide and grow in numbers, unless it suffers a significant loss of territory on the battlefield in Iraq and Syria, U.S. officials told The Daily Beast." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/06/us-intel-to-obama-isis-is-not-contained.html

See also, Dianne Feinstein, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/11/16/feinstein-echoes-clinton-countering-obama-for-saying-isis-is-contained/
mikecohen
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GB54;842614192 said:

Paris and San Bernardino were relatively trivial-a few dozen dead. Syria is not trivial. Over 200,000 dead!. The moral outrage of this is staggering-a few people in Paris die and its all hashtags and scented candles; 200,000 muslims are gassed, slaughtered, enslaved and homeless and its a shrug of the shoulders..

This is the most cataclysmic event in recent history, not a local conflict anymore but now a global one. Hundreds of thousands of refugees that will change the course of Europe for decades. A war now extended by ISIS to the heart of Europe, to Afghanistan, to Africa to the borders of Turkey and Jordan that threatens to plunge the whole area into conflict

Hollande realizes the threat. Putin realizes it, Hillary Clinton realizes it but when Obama blithely says things like "Assad must go" or "Isis is contained" (refuted by his own intelligence department*) in the absence of any strategy, he embarrasses his office and essentially says this will be a problem decided by his successor-which may be a good thing

*From the Daily Beast. "A new U.S. intelligence report on ISIS, commissioned by the White House, predicts that the self-proclaimed Islamic State will spread worldwide and grow in numbers, unless it suffers a significant loss of territory on the battlefield in Iraq and Syria, U.S. officials told The Daily Beast." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/06/us-intel-to-obama-isis-is-not-contained.html

See also, Dianne Feinstein, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/11/16/feinstein-echoes-clinton-countering-obama-for-saying-isis-is-contained/


For centuries, the primacy of Sunnis over Shia in the Middle East was not in question. Sunnis are still the majority in the Middle East, right? Since WWI essentially ended the Pax Turkicana there, that Sunni over Shia dominance was basically held in place by the structure of the new nation states there; and no one really questioned it. Since the structure of many of those states (especially Iraq) made no political sense, they had to be held together by dictatorship. The American Invasion of Iraq completely destroyed anything resembling a political and social infrastructure of that "country", leaving a political map which was majority Shia, with a heavy admixture of Kurds, whom no one there wants to exist, because they represent essentially a unified nation state whose borders steal territory from, majorly, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. So, the Americans imposed majoritarian rule on Iraq (as if the country made any sense as a political entity); and got a Shia Government, heavily dependent on Iran for its existence, and with no real infrastructure to replace that which the Americans destroyed, needing to suppress the Sunnis, and leaving the Sunnis without a coherent political structure to express the fact that the Sunnis are the dominant cultural group in the area - except (for reasons I have never understood) Syria has been ruled, for a lot of decades now, by a family from an exotic, and very small, Shia sect; and, when that dictatorship began to unravel, the same lack of political organization on the part of the Sunnis created a power vacuum, with power waiting (like Lenin said about pre-revolutionary Russia) to be picked up in the street; and there was a certain "natural" quality about the fact that it has largely been picked up by the most brutal organization there - an organization basically fed, and provided realistic military strength, by the guts of Saddam's army which had been thrown into the desert by the de-Baathification of Iraq. In a certain way, Al Quaeda is a product of the same dynamics. Similarly, the Taliban is a product of the division (by the artificially drawn Durand Line) of the Pushtoon nation, half in Pakistan, half in Afghanistan, leaving it without majoritarian political power in either of those two countries, although they are, naturally, the major nation in that area (or would be were they not split in half. Neither Daesh nor AlQuaeda will succeed as an establishment (let alone actually expand (as the Turkish Empire did to the doors of Western Europe - Vienna to be exact), because there is nothing in their DNA remotely capable of running a modern nation-state. So, he who has this in the proper perspective [of the un-godly political mess things are in the M.E., and how political sense (which would require a culture and structure capable of expressing Sunni majority power, while allowing the population enough stability to make money) won't happen by anything presently on the horizon] is the one who keeps us out of the quicksand there. Peripherally (or maybe not peripherally), one of the only things that could unify these disparate Sunni forces would be opposition to Israel (kind-of like the only unifying thread powerful enough to unify the disparate parts of Germany, which country had not congealed into a non-monarichcal unifying structure, when Hitler saw the glue that could do the trick).
juarezbear
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mikecohen;842614286 said:

For centuries, the primacy of Sunnis over Shia in the Middle East was not in question. Sunnis are still the majority in the Middle East, right? Since WWI essentially ended the Pax Turkicana there, that Sunni over Shia dominance was basically held in place by the structure of the new nation states there; and no one really questioned it. Since the structure of many of those states (especially Iraq) made no political sense, they had to be held together by dictatorship. The American Invasion of Iraq completely destroyed anything resembling a political and social infrastructure of that "country", leaving a political map which was majority Shia, with a heavy admixture of Kurds, whom no one there wants to exist, because they represent essentially a unified nation state whose borders steal territory from, majorly, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. So, the Americans imposed majoritarian rule on Iraq (as if the country made any sense as a political entity); and got a Shia Government, heavily dependent on Iran for its existence, and with no real infrastructure to replace that which the Americans destroyed, needing to suppress the Sunnis, and leaving the Sunnis without a coherent political structure to express the fact that the Sunnis are the dominant cultural group in the area - except (for reasons I have never understood) Syria has been ruled, for a lot of decades now, by a family from an exotic, and very small, Shia sect; and, when that dictatorship began to unravel, the same lack of political organization on the part of the Sunnis created a power vacuum, with power waiting (like Lenin said about pre-revolutionary Russia) to be picked up in the street; and there was a certain "natural" quality about the fact that it has largely been picked up by the most brutal organization there - an organization basically fed, and provided realistic military strength, by the guts of Saddam's army which had been thrown into the desert by the de-Baathification of Iraq. In a certain way, Al Quaeda is a product of the same dynamics. Similarly, the Taliban is a product of the division (by the artificially drawn Durand Line) of the Pushtoon nation, half in Pakistan, half in Afghanistan, leaving it without majoritarian political power in either of those two countries, although they are, naturally, the major nation in that area (or would be were they not split in half. Neither Daesh nor AlQuaeda will succeed as an establishment (let alone actually expand (as the Turkish Empire did to the doors of Western Europe - Vienna to be exact), because there is nothing in their DNA remotely capable of running a modern nation-state. So, he who has this in the proper perspective [of the un-godly political mess things are in the M.E., and how political sense (which would require a culture and structure capable of expressing Sunni majority power, while allowing the population enough stability to make money) won't happen by anything presently on the horizon] is the one who keeps us out of the quicksand there. Peripherally (or maybe not peripherally), one of the only things that could unify these disparate Sunni forces would be opposition to Israel (kind-of like the only unifying thread powerful enough to unify the disparate parts of Germany, which country had not congealed into a non-monarichcal unifying structure, when Hitler saw the glue that could do the trick).


Thanks for this summary. Sounds like the post-colonial borders baked most of these issues into the current DNA, and the "natural" process you're describing is an organic process of the natural order trying to re-establish itself. That's not to excuse the incredibly bloody, nasty, and reprehensible by-product of this process, but rather my over-simplification from a 40,000 foot view. This also makes me pretty nervous for Israel which, of course under Netanyahu's regime, hasn't done itself any favors with further expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Bobodeluxe
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mikecohen;842614286 said:

For centuries, the primacy of Sunnis over Shia in the Middle East was not in question. Sunnis are still the majority in the Middle East, right? Since WWI essentially ended the Pax Turkicana there, that Sunni over Shia dominance was basically held in place by the structure of the new nation states there; and no one really questioned it. Since the structure of many of those states (especially Iraq) made no political sense, they had to be held together by dictatorship. The American Invasion of Iraq completely destroyed anything resembling a political and social infrastructure of that "country", leaving a political map which was majority Shia, with a heavy admixture of Kurds, whom no one there wants to exist, because they represent essentially a unified nation state whose borders steal territory from, majorly, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. So, the Americans imposed majoritarian rule on Iraq (as if the country made any sense as a political entity); and got a Shia Government, heavily dependent on Iran for its existence, and with no real infrastructure to replace that which the Americans destroyed, needing to suppress the Sunnis, and leaving the Sunnis without a coherent political structure to express the fact that the Sunnis are the dominant cultural group in the area - except (for reasons I have never understood) Syria has been ruled, for a lot of decades now, by a family from an exotic, and very small, Shia sect; and, when that dictatorship began to unravel, the same lack of political organization on the part of the Sunnis created a power vacuum, with power waiting (like Lenin said about pre-revolutionary Russia) to be picked up in the street; and there was a certain "natural" quality about the fact that it has largely been picked up by the most brutal organization there - an organization basically fed, and provided realistic military strength, by the guts of Saddam's army which had been thrown into the desert by the de-Baathification of Iraq. In a certain way, Al Quaeda is a product of the same dynamics. Similarly, the Taliban is a product of the division (by the artificially drawn Durand Line) of the Pushtoon nation, half in Pakistan, half in Afghanistan, leaving it without majoritarian political power in either of those two countries, although they are, naturally, the major nation in that area (or would be were they not split in half. Neither Daesh nor AlQuaeda will succeed as an establishment (let alone actually expand (as the Turkish Empire did to the doors of Western Europe - Vienna to be exact), because there is nothing in their DNA remotely capable of running a modern nation-state. So, he who has this in the proper perspective [of the un-godly political mess things are in the M.E., and how political sense (which would require a culture and structure capable of expressing Sunni majority power, while allowing the population enough stability to make money) won't happen by anything presently on the horizon] is the one who keeps us out of the quicksand there. Peripherally (or maybe not peripherally), one of the only things that could unify these disparate Sunni forces would be opposition to Israel (kind-of like the only unifying thread powerful enough to unify the disparate parts of Germany, which country had not congealed into a non-monarichcal unifying structure, when Hitler saw the glue that could do the trick).


No one questioned it? I submit that America questioned it by toppling Saddam and opening up th Middle East to democracy.

Mission Accomplished.
okaydo
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I keep accidentally clicking on this thread thinking it has something to do with the Sonny Dykes standoff.
Bobodeluxe
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okaydo;842614496 said:

I keep accidentally clicking on this thread thinking it has something to do with the Sonny Dykes standoff.


It has EVERYTHING to do with what you said.
beelzebear
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LINK: "I Want a World of Peace": In Exclusive Interview UK Labour Head Jeremy Corbyn Opposes Bombing Syria

This guy makes lots of sense. He's clear and articulate and has been anti-war for a long time.

warning: there are b-roll images of bombing Syria and it is not pleasant or sanitized but it's most importantly it's real, and we need to see these images in the raw form. Public opinion changed about Vietnam precisely because of images like these. If human beings see daily terror, war and crimes against humanity, they overwhelmingly reject it. And that's why we will never see the real violence of war in U.S. media.
beelzebear
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Holy mother...have you guys seen this one? LINK: It appears El Chapo is threatening war on ISIS

Quote:

From the Drug Enforcement Administration to the Mexican government to Donald Trump, the list of people not invited to a Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman party isn't short. And it just got longer.

It appears one of the world's most powerful drug traffickers is now facing off with one of the world's most feared terrorist organizations -- ISIS. According to a letter allegedly leaked to Cartel Blog, several drug shipments belonging to the Sinaloa Cartel were destroyed while being transported through the Middle East.

In the alleged letter, Guzman states "Your god cannot save you from the true terror that my men will levy at you if you continue to impact my operation."

Click the slideshow above to learn 12 facts about the Sinaloa Cartel you probably didn't know.

According to Fox News Latino, Islamic State fighters have been strategically destroying cartel shipments because they disapprove of the use of drugs.

The Sinaloa Cartel is among the largest drug trafficking organizations in the world. Specifically, the cartel has developed into a major carrier of ecstasy and cocaine in the Middle East.

Guzman has been on the run since a high profile escape from a Mexican prison in July.


Extreme capitalism vs. extreme theocracy. I'd pay to see them destroy each other.
ShareBear
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beelzebear;842614721 said:

Holy mother...have you guys seen this one? LINK: It appears El Chapo is threatening war on ISIS



Extreme capitalism vs. extreme theocracy. I'd pay to see them destroy each other.


"Party of the century -- mountains of cocaine -- valleys of hookers!

Dress code: cowboy boots or heels -- DEA, Mex. Govt., Donald Trump, and ISIS will not be admitted -- +1 and Bring Your Own Bodyguard -- complimentary explosives and escape tunnels/donkeys will be provided

See you in an undisclosed location at an undisclosed time!

El Chapo"
 
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